Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

Sonic can act out instantly if Mythra uses foresight on Spindash LMFAOOOOO pic.twitter.com/NkPRA9SeB9

— UR2SLOW (@UR2SLOW_) March 6, 2021

Sonic can ignore Mythra's Foresight.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Sheesh. I thought up throw -> Waft was a thing, but I wasn't 100% sure and didn't find much on it when I went looking. Now Void and Tweek have both mentioned in their most recent videos that, indeed, it used to be a thing. I still maintain that having so many confirms into a move that kills that early was not okay.

 

[DJ3DS]

Pyra is the character to use against certain projectile-heavy characters. Blazing End is really helpful against characters like Snake, ROB, Olimar, Link, etc and she also has superior range to neuter their projectiles with.

I don't know about the others but I think Mythra is significantly scarier as ROB. He has difficulties landing as is, and when you can't even threaten neutral air because Mythra easily outspeeds and outranges it it becomes a nightmare to land. You end up resetting to ledge...at which point Pyra comes out to play.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't know about the others but I think Mythra is significantly scarier as ROB. He has difficulties landing as is, and when you can't even threaten neutral air because Mythra easily outspeeds and outranges it it becomes a nightmare to land. You end up resetting to ledge...at which point Pyra comes out to play.

Some matchups flip the dynamic of "Mythra neutral, Pyra advantage".

 

[DJ3DS]

Some matchups flip the dynamic of "Mythra neutral, Pyra advantage".

I think both are strong against ROB in advantage but in different situations. Pyra's juggling is less scary because she can't chase your movement as easily, and she doesn't have the luxury of being able to frame trap whatever option you chose to the move she commits to. Her ledgetrapping is where I think she really shines.

Mythra by comparison? I don't really care if she hits me on the ledge; it's most likely not killing me and neither characters are particularly good at stopping ROBs low recovery so I will get back. Her juggling is silly though, and it feels at times like none of ROBs typical options (FF Nair, Dair stalling, FF airdodge) can make it past her Uair frame trapping.

The really scary part is how the second leads to the first. More importantly, it's quite easy for Mythra to get ROB above her. A combination of speed and foresight easily gets up close, and provided she stays at swords range there's not a huge amount ROB can safely do due to how fast and disjointed her hitboxes are.

Part of the issue is also the low profiling. ROB can't actually punish spaced dash attack on shield with his typical options (upsmash, fair, gyrotoss) as Mythra low profiles the latter two! Part of this is teething issues (training yourself to drop shield and use a grounded tilt in that situation, for example) but it's still incredibly awkward.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of Pyra having to rely on Blazing End too much against projectile zoners. The move has its uses but it feels really limiting to use as a crux of a gameplan. You're left vulnerable if it misses and if you hit it her footstool shenanigans can be teched. Sure she can still move after she misses but you're potentially giving up stage control on a character who really benefits from stage control.

Pyra does really seem useful in projectile zoner matches but I think I'd much rather play as Mythra in most of them, since she can use her amazing mobility to weave around the projectiles and approach in whatever way she wants. She has the attributes of a classic rushdown character with a sword attacked - getting close and not allowing you time to breath are what she does and slower, calculated zoners don't like that.

Pyra's increased range really is an important factor but its mostly when you already have stage control or at least are in a range you can pressure them. Against a zoner you aren't really going to have stage control right off the bat (as a character's projectile range is a factor in stage control), so I think it's going to be important to use both Mythra and Pyra in neutral in some of those match ups if you want to take advantage of Pyra's range. Don't box yourself in with "Mythra Neutral, Pyra Advantage (or vise versa)" - break it down into more specific situations where you'd rather be one then the other. As mentioned several times at this point, Mythra really excels in things like frame trapping or chasing while Pyra does well with things like ledge trapping and corner pressure.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Something people haven't been talking about is the Sephiroth buffs. His counter hits lower now on-stage, making it easier to counter recoveries that hit above the stage. Probably not a huge buff but it sounds like it's a bit more significant than people originally thought. Standing on the ledge and countering recoveries got a little bit better.

It will be interesting to see what Tweek will do offline with Sephiroth, he has high hopes (top 10) for Sephiroth.

 

[Thinkaman]

Blazing End miss is such a unique disadvantage state. Fascinating how sometimes the plan is to retreat, and sometimes the winning move is to use your hitbox wheel as a barrier.

I also love how recovering high over Blazing End edgeguards is such a pronounced natural counter. There are a lot of characters with high recovery pathways that rarely see practical use, but have a big relevance here. For example, Mythra herself would rarely want to Photon Edge high (well above the stage) to recover, but it's the consistent way--and at times the only way--around Blazing End.

 

[Doc Monocle]

Blazing End miss is such a unique disadvantage state. Fascinating how sometimes the plan is to retreat, and sometimes the winning move is to use your hitbox wheel as a barrier.

I also love how recovering high over Blazing End edgeguards is such a pronounced natural counter. There are a lot of characters with high recovery pathways that rarely see practical use, but have a big relevance here. For example, Mythra herself would rarely want to Photon Edge high (well above the stage) to recover, but it's the consistent way--and at times the only way--around Blazing End.

Are you a mathematician by any chance? Somehow, I get that sense.

Edit: I apologize. I forgot that this may not be a good place to ask that.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Been playing Pyra and Mythra, mostly the latter. I think I have a good feeling of how they fit into the meta and I don't doubt they won't be a popular choice.

Mythra is so oppressive it's crazy. I think she only has a few matchups that are clearly difficult, but none feel impossible or anything like that.

Relevant matchups that might be bad:

Joker can keep up with Mythra. Specially so when he gets Arsene, which balances out and can match Pyra in kill power and match Mythra in speed! Both can gimp each other well but Joker punishes harder. I think this is going to be Mythra's worst matchup (it's still totally doable but it is the one that I think feels hardest).

Lucina and (maybe) Marth - their movement is good enough to keep up, and they can outspace Mythra too. They have more range than her. Can easily gimp both girls with counter or with their f-airs. I include Marth too, because tippers make Mythra explode earlier. Both can abuse their disadvantages well, but I think Marth and Lucina have more than enough to keep them out and win.

Wolf's blaster can be foresighted so this alleviates the matchup a bit, but his neutral, punish and gimp game is very strong in this matchup. He has enough tools to catch them in neutral and his claws give him the needed range to play footsies.

Cloud has the neutral and tools to play footsies with Mythra. Edgeguarding him is easy, but he also can do the same to Mythra. What I feel makes this MU possibly bad is limit, once he gets it it more than matches Mythra and gets the kill power to end her stock early.

Pikachu - tjolt can be foresighted although Pika can play around this and he has the necessary speed and tools to keep up with Mythra in neutral. Punishes her hard although she juggles him pretty well too, Mythra has enough speed to punish his burst options too. Lean more towards an even matchup here but disadvantage against Pikachu is pretty rough.

Sheik - surprisingly a difficult matchup. It's the same reasoning as Joker except without Arsene, but with a much more scary edgeguarding game and not as easy to edgeguard. Multiple needles can't be foresighted that well either because they can actually still hit Mythra even if she foresights one of them.

Edit on the above - so I asked the Pyra and Mythra cord. Turns out you can only foresight needles without taking damage if you forward roll past them. What I did was spot dodge in place, that does not work well because the following needles will hit.

Well that's the ones I've noted. Some of those could be argued even. I've also heard Inkling might be hard, but I don't have enough experience with that matchup yet to say so.

 

[Mikazuki]

Sonic can ignore Mythra's Foresight.

Of course he can, he is Sonic. after all.

I am curious to see, how relevant ZSS will remain. The nerfs to nair and UpB are actually huge. Especially when you parry her nair you can tell how laggy that move now has become. Mind you, she is still pretty good, but I think she is the most likely to slowly fall out of the top tier meta.

 

[DJ3DS]

Of course he can, he is Sonic. after all.

I am curious to see, how relevant ZSS will remain. The nerfs to nair and UpB are actually huge. Especially when you parry her nair you can tell how laggy that move now has become. Mind you, she is still pretty good, but I think she is the most likely to slowly fall out of the top tier meta.

The nerfs are nice but they're largely a slap on the wrist of a character with so many strengths. ZSS will be fine, I imagine, though it may be difficult to tell as she has never seemed as popular as her strength would suggest - though in part that does come down to her being (obvious silly moves aside) a not so straightforward character in my opinion.

 

[SwagGuy99]

SNIP

Speaking of matchups, I've fought Pyra/Mythra a bit as Luigi, and I have some miscellaneous thoughts on that matchup after playing it a bit.

• Luigi's neutral against Mythra seems not horrible? Fireballs can catch her when approaching and her hitboxes aren't too threatening unless she manages to get within mid or close range of Luigi. She doesn't have a projectile to approach with which is nice too.
• Pyra can't deal with Luigi's close up pressure very well at all and can't effectively camp him.
• Mythra may be good at camping Luigi with a lead on larger stages due to her mobility.
• Mythra's high fall speed and relatively average weight make her fairly easy to combo.
• Mythra and Pyra both struggle offstage quite a bit against Luigi, their up-bs leave them fairly vulnerable and if they have to recover to ledge, they are likely to be caught by z-air
• Fireballs and z-air can hit Mythra out of side-b, but reacting to her throwing it out isn't possible(?). If she hits your shield depending on the spacing, she should be able to be punished with an up-b.
• Getting out of disadvantage against Mythra is hard for Luigi but it's also hard for her to escape disadvantage as well.
• Mythra and Pyra both lack options if they are forced to shield.
• The matchup overall doesn't feel as bad as I thought it would be for Luigi on the day of their release.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fireballs can catch her when approaching and her hitboxes aren't too threatening unless she manages to get within mid or close range of Luigi.

Let me just say, fighting a Mythra who knows how to foresight projectiles on reaction feels very different than fighting one who doesn't

I actually did do this matchup too and if I predict the fireball correctly, I can f-roll to trigger foresight and have enough time to charge and f-smash Luigi.

 

[Firox]

Mythra is the first time I've been seriously concerned about a character's balance on-release. Hope I'm wrong lol but she doesn't seem okay at all.

Totally agree. She was literally the first DLC character I picked up and still thought was over-tuned after the initial "honeymoon" period. The others I thought were broke for a matter of hours or maybe days, but going on a week, my opinion of Pythra only continues to rise. In the right hands, no doubt whatsoever that they'll be top 15 in the game EASY. If MKLeo picks her up, guaranteed that 90% of the competitive scene will start crying that she's Brawl Metaknight status (which I don't honestly believe they are, but are definitely top 5 material if used optimally).

 

[Frihetsanka]

Relevant matchups that might be bad:

Diddy Kong has a decent chance of being losing, no? Also Greninja? And there's been some talk in the Sephiroth Discord lately that Sephiroth might win the MU. He edgeguards them really well, plays neutral quite well vs them (by playing defensively), and One Wing is super good as always.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Diddy Kong has a decent chance of being losing, no? Also Greninja? And there's been some talk in the Sephiroth Discord lately that Sephiroth might win the MU. He edgeguards them really well, plays neutral quite well vs them (by playing defensively), and One Wing is super good as always.

Yeah I can see Sephiroth. Personally I see it as even myself because Mythra does do a pretty good job sticking close to Sephiroth once she's in and her mobility is a problem for him. But he can also keep her out well and he has an already very strong edgeguard game so against Mythra he can end stocks pretty effortlessly offstage. It's a pretty extreme match where both characters can abuse each other's weaknesses well

Have not really played vs Diddy or Greninja as Mythra, so no comment from me on those.

 

[Firox]

Diddy Kong has a decent chance of being losing, no? Also Greninja? And there's been some talk in the Sephiroth Discord lately that Sephiroth might win the MU. He edgeguards them really well, plays neutral quite well vs them (by playing defensively), and One Wing is super good as always.

As a Greninja main, I can say that the MU against doesn't feel too bad for him. Mythra is potentially problematic if she smothers him because his lack of OoS options doesn't offer a lot of "get off me" potential, but his advantage lies in his bait and punish play style. Mythras tend to be fairly aggressive, so if Greninja can punish her whiff (which the landing lag on her aerials allow), he gets A LOT of reward. Her weight, fast falling and poor disadvantage state let him go to town with combos and kill confirms, and his vastly superior edgeguarding absolutely destroys her offstage.

Pyra is even more at a disadvantage against Gren, surrendering Mythras superior mobility for even more punishable endlag. Her attacks can easily kill Gren over 120% but that's only if she can catch him. Her lack of speed and ability to be camped by shuriken make life all the easier for Greninja. Proper spacing of his Fair make it surprisingly difficult for Pyra to land a decisive hit, even out of shield. In short, a skilled use of Mythra might be able to keep him at bay, but it requires either a defensive mindset or a responsible amount of aggression. I could be a little bias, but I'd give the MU either 55-45 or 60-40 in Greninja's favor.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Mythra's airdodge is programmed like a teleport, meaning, if she airdodges to the ledge from above the ledge, it's impossible to 2-frame her. She's invicible the whole way through. Per Void: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJoFjQnMr6I

 

[Space thing]

Mythra's airdodge is programmed like a teleport, meaning, if she airdodges to the ledge from above the ledge, it's impossible to 2-frame her. She's invicible the whole way through. Per Void: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJoFjQnMr6I

That isn't a property of teleports. You don't get those 2 frames of vulnerability if you grab the ledge from above as any character. Teleports just technically had a way to do this safely from several angles.

The only thing unique here is that Mythra's directional air dodge is invincible up to and including frame 24 (DADs can grab the ledge starting from 25), meaning she can be fully invincible when grabbing the ledge as VoiD demonstrates (also her directional air dodge goes further than normal, making this better).

I've been doing this for the past view days after realizing it was a thing and it's really good. Solves a lot of her recovery issues. Still not a free pass by any means, but if you don't actively hunt down Aegis' recovery, they can just get back easy with this.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yeah I am starting to get the feeling Mythra weakeness being a "bad recovery" is looking the same way it's was Smash 4 Cloud's.. Technically true but they have so many advantages in the air and ways to cover it almost rendered moot

It's almost surpising how Mythra was released in with so clearly overturned

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah I am starting to get the feeling Mythra weakeness being a "bad recovery" is looking the same way it's was Smash 4 Cloud's.. Technically true but they have so many advantages in the air and ways to cover it almost rendered moot

It's almost surpising how Mythra was released in with so clearly overturned

Context, context. Smash 4 was a game that let you airdodge as much as you wanted (as long as it wasn't into the ground) making any kind of edgeguarding except 2-framing very difficult, and Cloud could be in a souped-up mobility state with practically no downsides forever except not being able to use specials if he wanted to keep it, which could have been annoying against zoners... if there were actually any good ones in that game.

I get that weak recoveries have historically been shown to not always stop a character from being top tier or even the best, but in many of those cases, they happen in games where recoveries are weaker in general.

 

[Kokiden]

Mythra is the first time I've been seriously concerned about a character's balance on-release. Hope I'm wrong lol but she doesn't seem okay at all.

Mythra and Pyra are the first DLC characters I just do not enjoy fighting against.

Online is abysmal, and it doesn't help, but they are really not fun to fight against.

So many people spam side B it's annoying.

I have no idea what the balance team is smoking because they make the weirdest decisions...

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I think Foresight is what makes me super concerned about Mythra being broken. It's effectively Smash 4 Witch Time all over again with the long lasting slow down effect and allows Mythra to either get a really nasty combo at the start or a kill confirm at higher percents. Messing up multi-hits is a pretty big deal as well, as a lot of characters have multi-hitting moves and in some cases their best move is a multi-hitting one.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mythra and Pyra are the first DLC characters I just do not enjoy fighting against.

Online is abysmal, and it doesn't help, but they are really not fun to fight against.

So many people spam side B it's annoying.

I have no idea what the balance team is smoking because they make the weirdest decisions...

Both side B's can have some pretty hefty consequences when they miss, Photon Edge especially. Seems pretty well-balanced to me; higher GSP Aegis players certainly do not use Photon Edge in neutral often.

I think Foresight is what makes me super concerned about Mythra being broken. It's effectively Smash 4 Witch Time all over again with the long lasting slow down effect and allows Mythra to either get a really nasty combo at the start or a kill confirm at higher percents. Messing up multi-hits is a pretty big deal as well, as a lot of characters have multi-hitting moves and in some cases their best move is a multi-hitting one.

Can we stop the fear mongering based on past broken characters? Witch time was far more lenient in timing (and being a little off still got you a Bat Within), and the slowdown lasting as you hit them let you tack extra percent on what would be a death combo.

Foresight has much stricter timing, whiffing it gets you an ordinary dodge which can be risky in disadvantage and the slowdown stops when you hit them so whatever Mythra gets isn't necessarily stronger than an ordinary punish.

 

[Nah]

I can't say I really get why people think that Pythra is broken. The duo is top tier for sure, but there's being top tier, and then there's being the return of mother****ing and I'm not seeing it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It's funny how my take that Pyra/Mythra is top 10 is seen as too optimistic in some circles while other are like "Potential #1, potentially as good as Smash 4 Cloud/Bayonetta". Could they be top 5? Perhaps, the discovery of Mythra's direction airdodge being super good certainly helps their recovery, which was their biggest flaw. #1? I'm doubtful, but top 5 doesn't seem too implausible. #1? There's a lot of competition for that spot, though I suppose it doesn't seem fully impossible.

I will stick with top 10 for now, which is still really, really good. Perhaps time will prove me wrong, or perhaps time will prove me right, it's hard to say with certainty since the character has been out for less than a week.

I also think Sephiroth is top 10, though he really needs offline to prove it, online he's much worse.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Considering how inflexible they are at recovering low (which by itself already makes some MUs like extremely volatile) should singlehandedly throw out any comparisons to given how ridiculous that character's disadvantage state was. They're probably the most comparable to, but even then, SSB4 Cloud didn't need to choose between being fast/having safe buttons or having massive/strong ones when he already had the best of both worlds, on top of having a mechanic that dialed up both features to 11. And this was the same mechanic that also gave him the chance to recover from those bottom-corner scenarios that neither Pyra or Mythra can do all that well from what I've seen.

 

[Thinkaman]

There's a lot of misinformation getting thrown around about dodges, air dodges, Bat Within, and Foresight. From the top:

With 2-3 exceptions, all characters in Ultimate have one of 5 sets of dodge frame data:

Very Slow:
3-18/28 Spotdodge, 4-16/32 F.Roll, 5-17/37 B.Roll


Slow:
3-17/26 Spotdodge, 4-15/30 F.Roll, 5-16/35 B.Roll

*A quirk in G&W's animation gives him a 1 frame faster spot dodge.

Medium:
3-17/25 Spotdodge, 4-15/29 F.Roll, 5-16/34 B.Roll
[Everyone else, including all DLC characters other than Mythra]

Fast:
3-16/24 Spotdodge, 4-14/28 F.Roll, 4-15/33 B.Roll


Very Fast:
3-14/23 Spotdodge, 4-12/26 F.Roll, 4-14/32 B.Roll


The exceptions are , who have a "slow" spotdodge but unique (super slow) rolls, and , whose unique "2-stage" dodges have the following timings:
2-6-17/25 Spotdodge, 2-6-15/31 F.Roll, 3-7-16/36 B.Roll

So Bayonetta has vaguely slow dodges, whose true invincibility starts 3 frames late. In exchange, she gets Bat Within 1 frame earlier than ordinary dodges.



Air dodges in Smash Ultimate vary differently. All characters have Air Dodges (any direction) that start on frame:
4
3 [Everyone else, including all DLC other than Mythra]
2 All the Fast/Very Fast dodge characters, +

Bat Within air dodge is frame 1, with true invincibility starting only on frame 5.

Total Air Dodge duration for all characters is a function of inverse fall speed. End invincibility frames varies quite a bit, with more vulnerable dodges tending to have slightly more total invincibility frames. (Just like dodges.) Characters tend to have around 25-27 total frames of invulnerability on a neutral air dodge, and 6-9 less on directional. Bayonetta's nuetral air dodge has 27 without Bat Within, or an impressive 31 when Bat Within is included.



So, Mythra.

Mythra's dodge data is:
2-7-21/31 Spotdodge, 2-7-18/35 F.Roll, 2-7-19/38 B.Roll, 2-6-33/44 NeutralAirDodge

Bayo's again for side-by-side comparison:
2-6-17/25 Spotdodge, 2-6-15/31 F.Roll, 3-7-16/36 B.Roll, 1-5-31/45 NeutralAirDodge

Mythra is quite similar to Bayo. Foresight has largely similar timings and windows as Bat Within. Her B.Roll timing kicks in an additional frame sooner, but she lacks that sweet sweet 1f activation on Air Dodge.

In other words, even with Foresight, Mythra is only Air Dodging on f2. This is no different (in terms of escaping combos) than 15 existing characters, to say nothing of f1 Bayonetta herself. Her spot dodge (and rolls) are f2, which is 1 frame faster than the rest of the cast. (Identical to Bayo) Of course, when it comes to defensive options shield is still f1 cast-wide, so this is considerably less important than any would-be Air Dodge difference.

Beyond Foresight windows, we see that Mythra has extremely lengthy ground dodges, slower than the "Very Slow" class but at least with invulnerability windows to match. Mythra is the best in the game at dodging long-lasting or multi-hit moves, but the most punishable otherwise.

For example, simultaneous Lucina d-tilt is -0 against a fresh "Very Fast" dodge, -5 if you cancel into an attack. The same move is +8 on fresh Mythra spotdodge. (+2 if she cancels, which would let her potentially jab a followup tilt but little else.)

Her Air Dodge is a better picture. While she doesn't have that amazing f1 Bat Within combo-breaking ability, she has an an abnormally long total invulnerability duration despite having a perfectly ordinary fall-speed-based total duration. Mythra's total air invulnerability, including Foresight, is 32 frames--like Bayonetta, a respectable advantage over the typical 25-27.

Edit: It should also be pointed out that Mythra has a longer distance directional air dodge than average, unlike Bayonetta who has a shorter one.

Bottom line, Foresight is mostly identical to Bat Within on the front-end frame-data side (not getting into the activation effect here), except that it's missing the f1 combo escape capability. Mythra has the highest reward, but highest risk, ground dodges in the game. Ironically, the one unambiguous advantage she has is a few extra frames of ordinary Air Dodge invulnerability, just like Bayo.

 

[Firox]

I can't say I really get why people think that Pythra is broken. The duo is top tier for sure, but there's being top tier, and then there's being the return of mother****ing and I'm not seeing it.

Agreed. I can't stress this enough: THERE'S STILL COUNTER PLAY! Mythra's speed is offset by crap damage and mediocre reach, Pyra's reach and power are offset by terrible mobility and endlag. Both have heavily exploitable recoveries. Neither has the ability to insta-kill you with a 0-death ladder combo without your ability to escape. Are they good? Absolutely. Are they invincible? Far from it.

-Photon edge is a pretty good move for whiff punishing and catching landings but it is actually a horrible neutral tool and incredibly punishible. I've landed so many kill confirms on Mythra by simply baiting out people that spam it and then reaming the end lag. Honestly, I consider the move Mythra's Achilles Heel.

-Pyra's Up B and sheer kill power are pretty scary, to be sure, but I feel people are grossly underestimating the disadvantage she faces with endlag and mobility. Fast rushdown characters like Fox, Greninja, Roy, Pikachu, etc. can actually smother her in the same way Mythra smothers other characters. The key is not to be so scared of her that you let her choose the spacing. Push her into throwing out panic-Up B's and then shield-punish the endlag.

-Learn the proper DI. Many of the Aegis' moves can be escaped or at least have the follow-ups reduced by simply avoiding the reactions they expect. Tons of people try to escape disadvantage against Mythra by spamming directional air dodges. This will let her frame trap you. Fall straight into her with a neutral air dodge if you have no moves to stop her juggling. This will allow you act again before she can throw out more aerials or land.

-Mythra may be fast AF but remember that her damage is super low to compensate. One of her Dtilt->Up tilt->Up tilt->Up Air combos does like 18-25ish% damage while a single Hero Zapple does 25%. One of Greninja's landing Fair->DA->Up Smash combos does 40%. She definitely suffers a bit from "Sheik syndrome". Just take your time and choose your interactions based on your opponent's habits. More often than not, she can be out-damaged with just a few wins of neutral. She'll almost always come to you, so just make sure to have your best OoS/spacing options ready to punish.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

How is Mythra's reach mediocre? She has the typical reach of a Fire Emblem Swordie? That combined with her speed already will be actual hell for slower characters with stubby range I e

 

[Thinkaman]

How is Mythra's reach mediocre? She has the typical reach of a Fire Emblem Swordie? That combined with her speed already will be actual hell for slower characters with stubby range I e

Mythra's reach is pretty solid, and amazing for her speed. It's also nice that she can toggle to an even longer reach on a moment's notice.

One thing that confuses me though is nair. Maybe I'm imagining things, but Mythra nair is never as long as I think it is, and I land on people without hitting them at times. (When I don't get the landing hitbox, I mean.) From looking at the hitboxes, the size and coverage should be pretty good, superior to that of say Byleth nair. Yet with Byleth I don't experience this problem.

It's possible it's just a matter of duration that I'm misattributing to "range". Mythra nair only lasts 11 frames after all, much less than moves I would mentally compare it to.

 

[Firox]

How is Mythra's reach mediocre? She has the typical reach of a Fire Emblem Swordie? That combined with her speed already will be actual hell for slower characters with stubby range I e

Firstly, I think 's reach is a little underestimated. His pickaxe and sword (and freaking UP SMASH) are nothing to sniff at. As for general reach on Mythra, a couple points:

-Unlike most swordies, her Fair and Bair sweep upward instead of downward, making her landing aerials far less safe on shield compared to others, especially against short characters like the electric rats

-Having ANY amount of disjoint will give her an inherent advantage against stubby characters like Kirby and Doc Mario. Then again, every character has their good MU's and you can't expect to destroy Mythra with any character on the roster. If one of your characters just doesn't cut it, try using one that can beat her at her own game. Some notable characters that outrange her include: . Also note that some characters can have deceptively good range despite not being considered a "swordie". For example, Greninja's Fair and Up Smash can out-reach Mythra easily with proper spacing. Also, the Belmonts can use their chain-based landing aerials to wall her out. Again, there's counterplay, just maybe not for every single character.

-Range alone isn't the only answer to Mythra. I've played against some good Marios and Pikachus that used some exceptional projectile placement to shut down my approaches and cover their own. Zoners with good frame data are not to be underestimated. I'd be interested to see what mains think about the MU.

EDIT: For the record, when I referred to Mythra's "mediocre" reach, it was compared to Pyra, not to say that her reach was particularly bad in any way overall.

 

[DJ3DS]

Mythra's reach, in a vacuum, is fine.

Mythra's reach on a character with her mobility is absurd.

It's not a weakness. It feels like quite a pronounced strength and if your character doesn't have a great downward disjoint, airspeed or ways to mix their landing up then you risk being juggled and frametrapped until the next DLC releases.

 

[Firox]

Fun thing to note:

Mythra's biggest openings are in the endlag of her aerials. https://ultimateframedata.com/mythra.php

-Nair landing lag is 13 frames.
-Fair and Bair both have 10 frames of landing lag.

Considering how little reward she gets off of grabs, I recommend that counter strategies look more closely at OoS punishes.

 

[Thinkaman]

-Nair landing lag is 13 frames.
-Fair and Bair both have 10 frames of landing lag.

Considering how little reward she gets off of grabs, I recommend that counter strategies look more closely at OoS punishes.

Right; she's no Sheik, nor is she Joker/Lucina. (Who have similar timings but ends up 2-3 frame ahead once you account for superior shieldstun that comes with higher damage moves.)

But it should be pointed out that she has a landing hitbox on nair, which is really going to eat into that 13. She's not a particularly unsafe character, even if she can't match those types.

Edit: Note that the same relationship (with regards to shieldstun) exists but more pronounced on all Mythra's ground moveset. Take d-tilt: Mythra d-tilt is generally faster and safer than Lucina d-tilt, except the shieldstun/damage is so low that Lucina's is actually meaningfully safer on block.

This is sort of a pattern. Mythra's advantages are pretty loud and in-your-face, while her downsides are subtle, almost hidden. After reviewing the dodge data, I guarantee you that there have been thousands of moments in our exploratory games where a Mythra dodge was 100% punishable, yet we didn't go for it because it would have backfired on any other character in the game. These moments slipped by without notice, not the slightest realization that suboptimal play was occuring.

 

[DJ3DS]

It's not just about the raw numbers (which aren't terrible). You've also got to be able to punish at Mythra's spaced range, and low to the ground due to her irritating low profiling.

As ROB you have to hold shield and hope she then mashes another button which you can then punish.

And her grabs do their purpose, which is to gain that positional advantage she can abuse so well. She punishes shield well enough given how easily she conditions it.

 

[Firox]

Right; she's no Sheik, nor is she Joker/Lucina. (Who have similar timings but ends up 2-3 frame ahead once you account for superior shieldstun that comes with higher damage moves.)

But it should be pointed out that she has a landing hitbox on nair, which is really going to eat into that 13. She's not a particularly unsafe character, even if she can't match those types.

Granted. I'm just saying that there are chinks in that supposedly impenetrable armor of hers.

 

[Space thing]

I've personally experienced some issues with Mythra against some zoners early on, but I'm reserving judgment on that until offline comes back and people start to optimize her movement and foresight potential. Like, I would think foresight against a lot of zoners actually just makes their lives miserable. I'm sure there's counter play, but just thinking of say Pikachu in particular needed to worry about foresight for throwing out a jolt in the wrong spot, using bair or fair against shield, or even doing quick attack in Mythra's direction has got to be a troublesome thought.

Even Pyra seems to do surprisingly well against zoning styles if used sparring in and properly thanks to BE. Still less sure what to think of Pyra overall though as I haven't used her nearly as much outside of finishing stocks/ledge trapping.

 

[Thinkaman]

And her grabs do their purpose, which is to gain that positional advantage she can abuse so well. She punishes shield well enough given how easily she conditions it.

Yeah, I've been... pleased with Mythra's grab options when playing her. They are acceptable and fit into the rest of her game. It's like a slightly inferior version of Speed Shulk grabs, that's what it reminds me of.

I really don't want to grab per se, but I don't feel unduly burdened when I need to. It's never, ever my "Yomi layer 0" option, but a perfectly functional "Yomi layer 2" option.

Still appreciate the discrepancy when fighting her as of course.