Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[ZephyrZ]

Fun thing to note:

Mythra's biggest openings are in the endlag of her aerials. https://ultimateframedata.com/mythra.php

-Nair landing lag is 13 frames.
-Fair and Bair both have 10 frames of landing lag.

Considering how little reward she gets off of grabs, I recommend that counter strategies look more closely at OoS punishes.

This leaves her a little more open to wiff punishing too! Characters with fast bait and punish games like Fox and Greninja are really going to be able to exploit these openings, making her range a bit less of a problem for them to deal with.

It's still a good trait for her to have of course, it's just not like it has no downside at all like some people act like it does.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Dabuz shared his thoughts on the nerfs.

Summary:
Probably got hit the most, but he still thinks the character is still very good. He believes he is still top 25 minimum. He thinks that we should wait and see to get a more concrete interpretation on the character, but he thinks the dedicated Wario mains is still going to put in the mad works.
A bit more critical on the Palu nerfs than most other players. Still thinks the character is top 10, but he thinks nerfs to particularly fair and grab hurt her a notable amount.
He thinks the character got simply a slap in the wrist. Once again, the landing lag nerf is the most significant change, but all it does is make ZSS players play slightly more passive. Still very likely top 5. Believes that it is very hard to not make her top tier when Flip Jump exists in its current state.
Got the slightest slap in the wrist. Since fellow top 5 characters got hit harder, including Wario who he believes was the best character prior to 11.0, he thinks Joker may be the best character right now.
Being a Min Min player himself, he thinks that the nerfs barely affects the character at all. He didn't really realize that Min Min's airdodge was less laggy than other characters prior to the nerfs, and he doesn't really feel that much of a difference.

 

[Firox]

This leaves her a little more open to wiff punishing too! Characters with fast bait and punish games like Fox and Greninja are really going to be able to exploit these openings, making her range a bit less of a problem for them to deal with.

It's still a good trait for her to have of course, it's just not like it has no downside at all like some people act like it does.

Exactly! Greninja definitely capitalizes on the whiff punishes due to his myriad of dash attack conversions which hit super low to the ground. The key takeaway is that Mythra can't be as sloppy with her pressure as people think she can.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Seems pretty well-balanced to me; higher GSP Aegis players certainly do not use Photon Edge in neutral often.

I found the hitbox viewer on that move super helpful.

They're probably the most comparable to

Easy to keep as a secondary or pocket? Agreed.

Bottom line, Foresight is mostly identical to Bat Within on the front-end frame-data side (not getting into the activation effect here), except that it's missing the f1 combo escape capability

It's not the combo-break itself that's maddening so much as the free whiff punish that only Bayo/Aegis gets for doing the break.

Push her into throwing out panic-Up B's and then shield-punish the endlag.

Or press down-B Counter and delete her.

One thing that confuses me though is nair. Maybe I'm imagining things, but Mythra nair is never as long as I think it is, and I land on people without hitting them at times

I've seen this in combo vids too. Maybe the last hitboxes are keyed to only hit airborne opponents? Or the move can only deliver x number of hits throughout its entire duration? I've seen both kinds of mechanics before in FGs.

Unlike most swordies, her Fair and Bair sweep upward instead of downward, making her landing aerials far less safe on shield compared to others, especially against short characters like the electric rats

I don't understand this. An aerial hits a grounded opponent when it's at the 5oclock position. What difference does it make where the previous whiffed hitbox was? It's the same blockstun and landing lag regardless.

If anything I'd expect "underhanded" side aerials to be vulnerable to neutral hop side aerials since the girls won't have a hitbox at the 3oclock position prior. But it does cover cross-under attempts which only the rats and Toon Link would attempt.

I would think foresight against a lot of zoners actually just makes their lives miserable

What's the range on the slowdown? Bayo could slow a zoner at considerable distance... But even then could bait it with air weaving.

Yeah, I've been... pleased with Mythra's grab options when playing her

Speaking of : up-throw to landing trap is a true combo!

 

[Thinkaman]

I've seen this in combo vids too. Maybe the last hitboxes are keyed to only hit airborne opponents? Or the move can only deliver x number of hits throughout its entire duration? I've seen both kinds of mechanics before in FGs.

Smash hitboxes can be flagged for air/ground, it's extremely common. But usually it's just to have an identical pair of hitboxes with different properties, most frequently angle. Mythra Nair is such a move, but this has nothing to do with when the move hits people--like most, the aerial and ground hitboxes cover the exact same space.




I talked a great deal about the "front-end" of Foresight, how its frames compare to Bat Within. Now let's talk about the reward.

Spot dodging a 30 frame move, depending on the move, the character dodging, and the how the dodge was timed, is normally going to yield between a +0 and +15 advantage. Bat Within is going to sit at the high end of this spectrum, comparable to other dodges but as a best-case scenario.

Foresight is on another level. It gives over +20 more advantage than Bat Within on all ground options, or around +35.

But this is where it gets tricky. That's an incredibly number, but +35 on Mythra is worth way less than +35 on any other character. Her "advantage -> reward" curve is exceptionally flat. At +35 frames she has a few different ways of doing ~20% to you, but not really any more. F-smash with a bit of charge takes >100% to kill at the ledge for many opponents. For contrast, if you gave Pyra +35 advantage, she can kill almost anyone under 50%.

So, it's weird. Mythra is getting huge advantages numerically, but in cases where it's apples-to-apples she is only doing maybe 2x the average punish damage as other characters. In cases where people have lethal tilts, fast smashes, up-Bs, or throws, when range allows they might be killing just as well (or sooner) than Mythra off a successful mundane spotdodge. (Despite having way less advantage)

Most of the value in Foresight isn't specifically in the raw amount of advantage, but in the way it cuts through the spacing of ordinarily safe swipes. Then it's not apples-to-apples, and Mythra is punishing things other characters can't. This impedes people just swinging blindly at Mythra, hoping to smother her with favorable trades.

Edit:

What's the range on the slowdown? Bayo could slow a zoner at considerable distance... But even then could bait it with air weaving.

It looks to be somewhere between 5.2 to 5.5 units, identical to Bat Within. For reference, that's an inch longer than Belmont f-smash, or half of Wolf Blaster distance.

But, sometimes I don't get the slowdown and don't know why. I though I would be able to wreck Plant by activating slowdown off of poison, but it never seemed to catch him.

 

[Space thing]

What's the range on the slowdown? Bayo could slow a zoner at considerable distance... But even then could bait it with air weaving.

From going into training mode to check, slightly more than this distance: https://twitter.com/Howler_Leech/status/1369761798958632960

So, it's weird. Mythra is getting huge advantages numerically, but outside of cases with safe spacing she is only doing maybe 2x the average punish damage as other characters. In cases where people have leathal tilts, fast smashes, up-Bs, or throws, when range allows they might be killing just as well (or sooner) than Mythra off a successful spotdodge. (Despite having way less advantage)

This is all true, but foresight is also sometimes + enough for Mythra to switch to Pyra and still get the punish, though this may be limited to mostly very laggy moves like smash attacks, making it not super important. In extreme cases, you have time to punish with a Pyra f smash. Less extreme cases, maybe f tilt or Prominence Revolt. I need to look over how this general plays out more though. At the very least, Mythra can get decent damage with an F smash or U smash punish. Maybe even a at least semi charged Lighting Buster.

 

[Thinkaman]

From going into training mode to check, slightly more than this distance: https://twitter.com/Howler_Leech/status/1369761798958632960


This is all true, but foresight is also sometimes + enough for Mythra to switch to Pyra and still get the punish, though this may be limited to mostly very laggy moves like smash attacks, making it not super important. In extreme cases, you have time to punish with a Pyra f smash. Less extreme cases, maybe f tilt or Prominence Revolt. I need to look over how this general plays out more though. At the very least, Mythra can get decent damage with an F smash or U smash punish. Maybe even a at least semi charged Lighting Buster.

So, Swap -> Pyra f-smash is a 52 frame option. Revolt is 45, f-tilt is 44. It's going to be a stretch to reach those numbers (practicing against Ganon f-smash, I can only get Revolt/f-tilt to work, and only point-blank, if I had no travel time), and at that point we're talking things that would have been +30 on a mundane spot dodge--things anyone but Snake could just f-smash or whatever. Additionally, this only increases kill power--it does not do meaningfully more damage.

If Mythra were to get a full +70 frames somehow (no idea what would grant this), full Lightning Buster will actually give more damage than anything a Pyra Swap could do. Otherwise, partial charge Lightning Buster does not stand out. (Photon Rush is always just as good as a pure damage punish if not better.)

Mythra 1.13x charge f-smash, Photon Rush, and half Lightning Buster all do around 20%. You can also always go for a string, which should on average (win some lose some) be around the same.

 

[blackghost]

So, Swap -> Pyra f-smash is a 52 frame option. Revolt is 45, f-tilt is 44. It's going to be a stretch to reach those numbers (practicing against Ganon f-smash, I can only get Revolt/f-tilt to work, and only point-blank, if I had no travel time), and at that point we're talking things that would have been +30 on a mundane spot dodge--things anyone but Snake could just f-smash or whatever. Additionally, this only increases kill power--it does not do meaningfully more damage.

If Mythra were to get a full +70 frames somehow (no idea what would grant this), full Lightning Buster will actually give more damage than anything a Pyra Swap could do. Otherwise, partial charge Lightning Buster does not stand out. (Photon Rush is always just as good as a pure damage punish if not better.)

Mythra 1.13x charge f-smash, Photon Rush, and half Lightning Buster all do around 20%. You can also always go for a string, which should on average (win some lose some) be around the same.

the reward of a giant amount of plus frames is a reward in of itself. i hate to go back to smash 4 bayo but its the best comparison point i can give. witch time's greatest reward wasnt that you'd get to swing with a smash attack for free its that you got to create a situation your opponent had to deal with. high level mythra players will maximize that reward while lesser players will flow chart into one of a few options. mythra is an interesting character because so far there is rarely a situation where it is clearcut that ifx happens you do why rather she is a character of maximizing her tools and opponents' mistakes with a combination of good buttons and great speed. her foresight is just an extension of this.

great players will snowball a plus 30 frame situation into a huge adavantage state if not possibly a kill.

 

[Thinkaman]

the reward of a giant amount of plus frames is a reward in of itself. i hate to go back to smash 4 bayo but its the best comparison point i can give. witch time's greatest reward wasnt that you'd get to swing with a smash attack for free its that you got to create a situation your opponent had to deal with. high level mythra players will maximize that reward while lesser players will flow chart into one of a few options. mythra is an interesting character because so far there is rarely a situation where it is clearcut that ifx happens you do why rather she is a character of maximizing her tools and opponents' mistakes with a combination of good buttons and great speed. her foresight is just an extension of this.

great players will snowball a plus 30 frame situation into a huge adavantage state if not possibly a kill.

I think the point is right but the analogy is wrong. The situations Bayo was creating were clear pathways to any-% KOs. Mythra, realistically, is just looking at favorable off-stage scenarios or potential Lightning Buster setups. Both have a lot more counterplay involved, and both really needed to be close to a ledge to kick off. It's kinda apples and airplanes.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Smash hitboxes can be flagged for air/ground, it's extremely common. But usually it's just to have an identical pair of hitboxes with different properties, most frequently angle. Mythra Nair is such a move, but this has nothing to do with when the move hits people--like most, the aerial and ground hitboxes cover the exact same space

Looking at the hitbox viewer, her nair only has a rehit of three, and, the final two active frames only have hitbubbles on her lower legs, so, basically directly beneath her and then slightly forward.

Byleth Nair has a rehit of 7, and the final hit is a final "pop" big hitbubble.

Both are "spinning stick" Nair's, but Byleth hitbubbles stay closer to his chest, so with Mythra we might just be tagging someone with a far reaching hitbox before the victim is close enough to really eat the whole thing. EDIT and Byleth uses a four part spin, 90 degrees every frame, while Mythra uses a three part spin, 140(?) degrees per frame. Bigger holes to hide a Kirby in. The second rotation of the stick doesn't even line up with the first rotation. So it looks more like random sparkles of hitbubbles around her rather than a solid object moving through space.

So yeah, the unreliability comes from a bit of both running out of hits to deliver plus the placement of final hitboxes. Mythra does have a popbox, but it's earlier and you've likely already used it up.

 

[Emblem Lord]

She keeps evolving.

Also note that even beyond kill confirm windows it's still a very tight frame trap. Unless you have a really good disadvantage option like ZSS Flip Jump, this move can still catch your airdodge or catch you mashing jump due to the hitbox on Aegis as Lightning Buster is being charged. Spaced dtilt IS the best confirm, but it works well with utilt too.

 

[The_Bookworm]

She keeps evolving.

Also note that even beyond kill confirm windows it's still a very tight frame trap. Unless you have a really good disadvantage option like ZSS Flip Jump, this move can still catch your airdodge or catch you mashing jump due to the hitbox on Aegis as Lightning Buster is being charged. Spaced dtilt IS the best confirm, but it works well with utilt too.

Blackghost kinda already posted that earlier in this thread, but it is nice bring it up now.

This is definitely Mythra's most reliable KO confirm by herself that I definitely see be used in real matches.
However, it only really seems to KO at the ledge, and the video's presented KO percents doesn't seem to account for DI. As such, it can be tricky at times to land and actually get the KO.
The plus side is that Lightning Buster KOs everyone at a consistent percent due to its set weight knockback, so heavies that would probably live at much higher percents from this confirm would get KO'd earlier than they should.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Indeed it only works well at the ledge as a pure kill confirm.

Luckily, she has the mobility and buttons to consistently put opponents at the ledge. Her f-throw does a great job at attaining this positioning as well.

Also works well in platform traps, wake-up option coverage and landing traps.

I want to see more people testing it at the ledge as it stands to cover alot of options there as well.

 

[Thinkaman]

I remember watching the presentation, and thinking it looked unimportant. Then the character comes out and it seems like the best parts of Cross Slash and Flare Blade, whoa nice. Then 30 minutes in we realize it has a hitbox on charge, and the world as we know it has changed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I remember watching the presentation, and thinking it looked unimportant. Then the character comes out and it seems like the best parts of Cross Slash and Flare Blade, whoa nice. Then 30 minutes in we realize it has a hitbox on charge, and the world as we know it has changed.

I too was rather negative of the move when it was revealed.
The moveset of both Pyra and Mythra are both very good across the board (hard to pinpoint an individual move from either of them that is bad), then Lightning Buster appeared to be that one meh move in the arsenal.

Even after a few days the character came out, the move didn't really feel that impressive. I was more impressed with Flame Nova, a move that had great damage and power, deceptively little lag than what you would think, and stupidly safe on shield.

Then we learned about Lightning Buster combo finisher applications, speed, and deceptively good hitboxes, then I was sold on the move.
To this day, I am having a hard time finding a bad, or even mediocre move that either Aegis girl has in their moveset.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I wonder if they're just trying to advertise a Xeno3?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I wonder if they're just trying to advertise a Xeno3?

I don't think this is about Xenoblade 3 so much as that Nintendo wants to keep pushimg Xenoblade as a whole as one of their staple franchises, plus Rex was a big request pre-launch (especially in Japan).

But this isn't really the thread for that.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Dabuz posted his video on the 11.0 buffs. Fairly standard video explaining the changes.

However, his explanation on the changes has me fascinated. He described it as more significant than he initially expected.
As someone who plays the character a lot, I am surprised I overlooked a few aspects of these.

First off, the down air and down smash changes doesn't really matter too much. It's nice, but it doesn't matter.
Side B changes is actually described as not as significant as expected. Aerial side B is alright, and grounded side B isn't still all too great on shield.

Up B changes is the significant change, particularly the fact that it comes out two frames faster.
Not only it is a better OoS option (still kinda eh in that regard), but it actually helps out with his combo game quite a bit.
It was learned later that the 0-death combo on DK wasn't actually true with DI. However, apparently it is now actually true. In addition, down tilt -> up B is now a true combo (there are percent windows and DI to take into account though). It makes down tilt a scarier spacing move at early percents.

Overall, he thinks the buffs are very nice. Not tier changing, but stuff to take into account.

I wonder if they're just trying to advertise a Xeno3?

If only that were true. \(ツ)/

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Online tourney, but Sparg0 has won the recent Juice Box going Pyra/Mythra. He's also won some of the previous ones with Roy and Steve.

1. Sparg0
2. WaDi ,
3. Sonix ,
4. Sharp
5. MVD
5. Maister
7. Suarez
7. Lui$,

 

[Thinkaman]

Top 8 qualifying footage is here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/944552853

It's nice to see both Sparg0's Mythra--as the best western online player--alongside traditional character prodigies Lui$ and Dabuz, the latter of whom plays Pyra with Mythra as a recoverybot. Gives us a good spread of what they are capable of in various hands.

Observations:

• Dabuz's "Pyra" sets were still really interesting since Mythra/Pyra are playing a collective hand when edgeguarding or recovering, not to mention that...
• Sparg0 and Lui$ mostly use Pyra as a killbot. (Some slight exceptions, and they tend to switch at a lower % than most people I've seen.) Judgement pending on if our theorycrafting otherwise is overly hopeful, or if this is indeed a space for evolution.
• Not much Lightning Buster. Seems like the biggest room for growth. Lots of other good plays and strings though.
• More than half their deaths are off-stage--it's a real problem.
• What is worse, I lost track of the number of garanteed off-stage kills people had them checkmated with that were flubbed, for any number of Week 1 reasons. Maister in particular stood out, where off-stage counterplay evolved in real time: Against Dabuz he got destroyed game 1, squeezed out a dubious win game 2, and 3-stock'd him game 3.
• The good news for Mythra/Pyra is how threatening they are at the ledge. People were consistently able to get to ledge, but getting past the wall to neutral was a challenge.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So I am wondering if how vulnerable they seem offstage is going to be a legit weakness for them as time goes on. Once people learn how to effectlvely edgeguard them. It will be interesting how it will pan out Once offline play comes back and everyone can properly edgeguard again . Mythra may have amazing airspeed and disjoints to help offstage that can protect her in the same way can. But many of her airiels without landing canceling do have a fair amount of endlag. They may not be something she can just careless throw out when put in an disadvantagegous position offstage

It is the reason why lots of people are saying. will be a hard MU again, and that he will become a Top-tier threat once offline play starts. It because his edguarding game is potentially very potent and threatening.


Then again with all this new tech and janky abilities that are being discovered for the Ageis pair seemingly every new day . They may end up being Top-tier anyway. A 'techically" bad recovery has not stopped characters from being Top-tier in the past.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm starting to think Pyra/Mythra might be top 5... We'll see though. With MkLeo and Cosmos and others probably playing them we're going to get some info eventually. Mythra's recovery doesn't seem quite as bad as I initially thought though, which was my main caveat with them. Initial online results seem promising as well, although they seem to be relativitely easy to pick up and play and probably do okay online (especially Pyra).

Mythra having good airspeed, the ability to mix-up between side-B and up-B and one of the best directional airdodges in the game? Yeah, their recovery is not as bad as I initially thought. Pyra's is pretty terrible though but you can switch easily to Mythra when recovering most of the time. Top 5 is looking more and more plausible. Some people, like Leffen and M2K, think they might be #1 in the game. I don't want to go that far yet but top 5 or top 10 seems pretty likely right now. We need more data to really say, of course, but they look quite strong.

 

[Thinkaman]

This little result brings up a great point. Regardless of character, I expect Sparg0 to be in contention for a top 10 player once tourneys resume. When the pandemic started, he was so young; now he's 15 and has spent his time in the hyperbolic time chamber taking every name in front of him.

So I am wondering if how vulnerable they seem offstage is going to be a legit weakness for them as time goes on. Once people learn how to properly edgeguard them. It will be interesting how it will pan out Once offline play comes back and everyone can properly edgeguard again .

It really is an open question.

In just those games I linked, we saw Maister and Wadi wreck great players off-stage, with a casual glance suggesting that optimization will lead to more Mythra gimps, not less. At the same time, we saw Kirbykid struggle to turn theory into kills, with clever up-b timings and smart air dodges being just enough to foil the slow setup/commitment on his projectiles and nairs.

It seems logical that this is a real issue that will never go away, but its applicability across matchups could vary quite a bit.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This little result brings up a great point. Regardless of character, I expect Sparg0 to be in contention for a top 10 player once tourneys resume. When the pandemic started, he was so young; now he's 15 and has spent his time in the hyperbolic time chamber taking every name in front of him.



It really is an open question.

In just those games I linked, we saw Maister and Wadi wreck great players off-stage, with a casual glance suggesting that optimization will lead to more Mythra gimps, not less. At the same time, we saw Kirbykid struggle to turn theory into kills, with clever up-b timings and smart air dodges being just enough to foil the slow setup/commitment on his projectiles and nairs.

It seems logical that this is a real issue that will never go away, but its applicability across matchups could vary quite a bit.

As I mentioned in the post. It's the same Logic why people think Sepiroth will eventulsy give them a hard time, as well as a group that say Seph will become a potential problematic MU, ad well as become a potential Top-tier offline


It's safe to say the Ageis get boosted online (Pyra Especially) Where there strengths become amplified and their weakness become less exportable. Meanwhile it is generally considered vice-versa in Sepiroths case. (Which includes downright scary edgeuarging and offstage play)

Then again this is all theory at this point. We can't really say for sure actual Offline tourney results. Which is likey not going to be happening anytime in the near-future.

Tweek seems serious about Maning Sepiroth and believes he is Top-tier, and he is not the only top pro player that thinks that. I can imagine many players being drawn to the Aegis girls as well. Things are going to be interesting for sure when offline competive play starts again

 

[Thinkaman]

The one thing Mythra has going for her in a handful of offline matchups is Foresight. I don't buy that Foresight is meaningfully easier to trigger against Lucina or Palutena offline than online, but close-range Thunder Jolt, Wolf Blaster, Fireball? That's plausible.

 

[Firox]

Tweek seems serious about Maiming Sepiroth

I know Seph has done some evil things in his life, but MAIMING him? That seems a little dark for Tweek. /JK LOL

(I know it was a typo, but the wording just tickled me)

 

[SwagGuy99]

VoiD just did a tier list speedrun for the newest patch on stream.

Outside of the Top 5 (Joker, Pika, Peach, ZSS, Fox) it's unordered.

Overall, it's a relatively inoffensive tier list when considering it's unordered. I think that his placements of Mario and Greninja both seem somewhat low, while solo-Mythra and solo-Pyra, Min Min, Steve, Olimar, and Sepiroth are all a bit higher than they probably should be. Overall though this list looks mostly fine.

The only other thing that I think might be worth mentioning is that he has Fox in his Top 5, which I think is a bit strange.






Edit: I had solo-Mythra listed as being too high twice, I meant both solo-Mythra and solo-Pyra

 

[SKX31]

Top 8 qualifying footage is here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/944552853

It's nice to see both Sparg0's Mythra--as the best western online player--alongside traditional character prodigies Lui$ and Dabuz, the latter of whom plays Pyra with Mythra as a recoverybot. Gives us a good spread of what they are capable of in various hands.

Observations:

• Dabuz's "Pyra" sets were still really interesting since Mythra/Pyra are playing a collective hand when edgeguarding or recovering, not to mention that...
• Sparg0 and Lui$ mostly use Pyra as a killbot. (Some slight exceptions, and they tend to switch at a lower % than most people I've seen.) Judgement pending on if our theorycrafting otherwise is overly hopeful, or if this is indeed a space for evolution.
• Not much Lightning Buster. Seems like the biggest room for growth. Lots of other good plays and strings though.
• More than half their deaths are off-stage--it's a real problem.
• What is worse, I lost track of the number of garanteed off-stage kills people had them checkmated with that were flubbed, for any number of Week 1 reasons. Maister in particular stood out, where off-stage counterplay evolved in real time: Against Dabuz he got destroyed game 1, squeezed out a dubious win game 2, and 3-stock'd him game 3.
• The good news for Mythra/Pyra is how threatening they are at the ledge. People were consistently able to get to ledge, but getting past the wall to neutral was a challenge.

Looked at Sparg0's set vs. Ven in Top 32 (3 h 15 mins in the vod). It's vs. a character that's practically off-meta, yes, but a couple notes for a character who's light but kills early:

• Sparg0 switched to Pyra and played vs. Zelda a lot earlier, when Zelda was at 60-80ish %. Makes sense since Pyra's a bit heavier and it's at that point where Zelda dies to a Prominence Revolt (as Sparg0 used to take one of Ven's stocks). He did switch back to Mythra sometimes late in a stock to get back to Zelda's face or recover, but would switch back to Pyra sometimes.
• Sparg0 used Mythra mostly to get around Ven's zoning and play neutral. In particular he used a lot of N-Airs to discombobulate Zelda and thus gain the advantage.
• Sprag0 got a lot of mileage out of Blazing End, and almost killed Ven at around 80 from a D-Air -> U-Air conversion. His final kill to seal the set was in fact a Blazing End that 2-framed just as Ven got out of the Up-B teleport.

While I don't think everything I said here is applicate to a Pythra facing say , it's still worth noting since there are quite a few characters who are light but kill early.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yeah I noticed a lot of players underestimating Mario in recent tier Lists. I'd say he was top 15 at least and was getting strong results before the whole panemdic Lockdown. Plus he is another character that is glad for the nerfs this patch He likely still is around that area. But we may he does with new DLC matchups in .


Also the main reason who people are saying Seph maybe a losing MU for Pyra/Mythra is how effectively he can potentially edgeguard and gimp them offstage. Once Sepiroth gains advantage he will be able to push it hard. Landing one fair against them offstage will be enough to gimp at enough damage

Of course it likey won't be competely easy for Seph. Mythra can likey pressure and combo Seph pretty hard and yeah Pyra can potentially kill Seph very early

 

[Rizen]

People are happy about characters like Joker, ZSS and Palutena getting nerfed but Mythra's going to shake up the whole meta. She's already been picked up by one top player and won a tournament. I expect this to snowball. Mythra's not only insanely good but very easy to pick up and has high appeal to players. Mythra's threat to lower ranked characters is as bad as the nerfs to top tiers were good for them.

When I say Mythra I mean using both characters effectively. Pyra's inclusion makes Mythra even better even though Pyra herself isn't broken.

 

[NotLiquid]

The only really notable quirk of VoiD's list to me is his placing of Chrom/Roy.

Roy ranked 12th on OrionStats before we hit quarantine, and those results translated pretty painlessly to the online meta. This is a character that's always played well in Ultimate's engine, and has the stripes to back it up, even against some of the best characters on the roster. Most top players who've made their own character rankings have consistently ranked him as a bordering top 10 contender at minimum. On top of which, Roy's been buffed over patches whereas almost every other ubiquitous top tier got hit by a mixture of nerfs.

So the fact that VoiD considers Roy 29th is rather mystifying. Not necessarily in a bad way, but I'm curious about the math - every other character ranking except this one feels like it has reasoning that speaks for itself. I'd really prefer if people who post tier lists (especially if they capture them from streams/VODs) provide some insight on why some characters are ranked the way they are. I could see how someone might substitute their position through enough rigorous theorycraft, but given that this is a list that elects to have Pac-Man very highly in the top tier category (which I can actually respect) I think context is important.

EDIT: Missed the part where it says it's unordered. While that, at best, still puts Roy at 20th, I think the point still stands considering there's a few top tiers I'm surprised he elected to put up over the two.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The only really notable quirk of VoiD's list to me is his placing of Chrom/Roy.

Roy ranked 12th on OrionStats before we hit quarantine, and those results translated pretty painlessly to the online meta. This is a character that's always played well in Ultimate's engine, and has the stripes to back it up, even against some of the best characters on the roster. Most top players who've made their own character rankings have consistently ranked him as a bordering top 10 contender at minimum. On top of which, Roy's been buffed over patches whereas almost every other ubiquitous top tier got hit by a mixture of nerfs.

So the fact that VoiD considers Roy 29th is rather mystifying. Not necessarily in a bad way, but I'm curious about the math - every other character ranking except this one feels like it has reasoning that speaks for itself. I'd really prefer if people who post tier lists (especially if they capture them from streams/VODs) provide some insight on why some characters are ranked the way they are. I could see how someone might substitute their position through enough rigorous theorycraft, but given that this is a list that elects to have Pac-Man very highly in the top tier category (which I can actually respect) I think context is important.

Remember: the tier list outside of the top 5 is unordered.
Regardless, I do think the duo is ranked unusually low, among other things.

 

[Thinkaman]

Cloud being incredibly easy to pick up (and also being CLOUD STRIFE) was a huge magnification on his impact in Smash 4. To this day I insist that Cloud holistically achieved more of a problem for competitive Smash 4 than Bayo ever reached. (He was bad enough at top level 1v1 play, but he was even more problematic at lower levels of play, attracted usage even disproportionate to his power level, and did terrible things to doubles.)

I don't think Mythra exhibits this social X-factor to the extent that Cloud does, but she's the first DLC on this side of the fence besides Joker. All the other DLC has been exotic and quirky, slowing adoption and limiting the pool of player truly interested in maining them in the long-term. In theory one would expect fewer people to stick with a complex dual-character main than usual, but we'll see--PT is historically very popular. (As are swords in general)

 

[SwagGuy99]

Dabuz made a speculative Pyra/Mythra matchup chart today on stream. He said he could see some of the slightly winning matchups maybe being even and that the two losing matchups could also potentially be even. He said he thinks their matchup spread is overall incredibly good.

 

[KirbySquad101]

VoiD just did a tier list speedrun for the newest patch on stream.

Outside of the Top 5 (Joker, Pika, Peach, ZSS, Fox) it's unordered.
View attachment 306851

Overall, it's a relatively inoffensive tier list when considering it's unordered. I think that his placements of Mario and Greninja both seem somewhat low, while solo-Mythra and solo-Pyra, Min Min, Steve, Olimar, and Sepiroth are all a bit higher than they probably should be. Overall though this list looks mostly fine.

The only other thing that I think might be worth mentioning is that he has Fox in his Top 5, which I think is a bit strange.






Edit: I had solo-Mythra listed as being too high twice, I meant both solo-Mythra and solo-Pyra

Dabuz made a speculative Pyra/Mythra matchup chart today on stream. He said he could see some of the slightly winning matchups maybe being even and that the two losing matchups could also potentially be even. He said he thinks their matchup spread is overall incredibly good.
View attachment 306856

What are the links to the vods for both of these videos? I do agree with NotLiquid that MU charts/tier list placements really aren't that helpful without player insight/explanations (doubly so in the case of tier list, where people's definition of high tier, top tier, etc. can mean anything).

 

[Minix0]

This is heresy around here but I actually like fighting Sonic. Yeah he's campy but the ones I fight are pretty interactive.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think we got to take any results newly released characters get especially online results with a grain of salt. I'm not saying the are not going to be very strong offline. But there has always been has always been cases of DLC characters getting inital strong showings at local or smaller competions right after they are realeased. People may not be fully used to playing them, but I'm the same argument people still need to get used to fighting them and developing counterplay

I think it's safe to say Pyra/Mythra get boosted quite a bit online "Pyra specifically" In the year since the lockdown began we have had 4 new DLC characters , Nerfs to top tiers and buffs to some low-middle tiers. When offline tournaments finally do come back, the meta is going to be considerably different than pre-pandemic

I mean there are many people that say and are also potential Top-tiers. They both will have Top 10 Player rep. Dabuz is going to main Min Min and Tweek and Zackray are using Sepiroth In fact I believe Zackray managed to win a tournament using solo Seph in an offline tournament in the brief blip when they were back in Japan. There is a chance they very may well be with top players backing them. Both Min Min and Seph do not do as well Online as Pyra/Mythra do

 

[Nobie]

Dabuz made a speculative Pyra/Mythra matchup chart today on stream. He said he could see some of the slightly winning matchups maybe being even and that the two losing matchups could also potentially be even. He said he thinks their matchup spread is overall incredibly good.
View attachment 306856

Looks like Dabuz's opinion has changed pretty rapidly. He just released a YouTube video talking about how he thinks heavies with good recoveries might give Pyra/Mythra trouble, and here he is, putting Dedede in easy win and K. Rool in slight win. I guess that's not surprising, given how early we are in the character's meta.

That said, I think that the characters who probably do the best against Pyra/Mythra are anyone with a good tomahawk and speed to keep up the pressure, like Falcon, Fox, and Sheik.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Looks like Dabuz's opinion has changed pretty rapidly. He just released a YouTube video talking about how he thinks heavies with good recoveries might give Pyra/Mythra trouble, and here he is, putting Dedede in easy win and K. Rool in slight win. I guess that's not surprising, given how early we are in the character's meta.

That said, I think that the characters who probably do the best against Pyra/Mythra are anyone with a good tomahawk and speed to keep up the pressure, like Falcon, Fox, and Sheik.

I'd argue Roy, Chrom, Sephiroth, and Joker also fall into this category. I might say Pika as well, but I feel like swords are stronger vs Pika than they tend to be given credit for, which could swing the MU in Pyra and Mythra's favor (plus, Foresighting T-Jolts will be very helpful, which is something no other swordie can do).

 

[SwagGuy99]

What are the links to the vods for both of these videos? I do agree with NotLiquid that MU charts/tier list placements really aren't that helpful without player insight/explanations (doubly so in the case of tier list, where people's definition of high tier, top tier, etc. can mean anything).

The VODs for both of these should be up on their twitch channels, they were both done today.

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