Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[ZephyrZ]

I think people are overrating Mythra just a tiny bit. She's very good no doubt, but I think that her damage output is a legitimate weakness of hers. She has combos and good pressure in advantage, but her combos are low damage and she has to keep advantage going for a long time to keep up with the crazy combos of other top tiers. It'll take a special type of player to play her to her potential.

She's a character with good tools in nuetral, advantage and disadvantage, like Sheik. Her damage output is also not nearly impressive as it looks from her combos, like Sheik. While she has the pontential to keep advantage going forever it's going to really hard to do that consistently. She's very low risk / low reward, and I think we're all caught up on the "low risk" part.

Pyra isn't a perfect solution for killing either. She's definitely a massive boon, but she has huge trade offs. Her frame data is poor and her mobility is awful, and while that doesn't matter as much if you use Mythra to set up up into a good position those weaknesses are still there. It's not like she comes out and is suddenly garunteed a free kill - she still has to work for it and be careful space her moves as to not be snuffed out or wiff punished, and its not like she has any kill throws.

Anyway I could easily see this character being a contender for best in the game going forward, I just don't think recovery is her "only" weakness. If I had to guess I'd say she's probably in the top 10 at least but its still really early to say.

On a different note, I think treating Mythra like the "damage machine" and Pyra like the "kill machine" will ultimately be detrimental to their metagames, especially in the case of Pyra. We saw a lot of PT mains treat Zard like the "kill machine" early on only for them to get frustrated that they weren't always getting instant kills and not being patient enough to play him to his other strengths.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think people are overrating Mythra just a tiny bit. She's very good no doubt, but I think that her damage output is a legitimate weakness of hers. She has combos and good pressure in advantage, but her combos are low damage and she has to keep advantage going for a long time to keep up with the crazy combos of other top tiers. It'll take a special type of player to play her to her potential.

She's a character with good tools in nuetral, advantage and disadvantage, like Sheik. Her damage output is also not nearly impressive as it looks from her combos, like Sheik. While she has the pontential to keep advantage going forever it's going to really hard to do that consistently. She's very low risk / low reward, and I think we're all caught up on the "low risk" part.

Pyra isn't a perfect solution for killing either. She's definitely a massive boon, but she has huge trade offs. Her frame data is poor and her mobility is awful, and while that doesn't matter as much if you use Mythra to set up up into a good position those weaknesses are still there. It's not like she comes out and is suddenly garunteed a free kill - she still has to work for it and be careful space her moves as to not be snuffed out or wiff punished, and its not like she has any kill throws.

Anyway I could easily see this character being a contender for best in the game going forward, I just don't think recovery is her "only" weakness. If I had to guess I'd say she's probably in the top 10 at least but its still really early to say.

On a different note, I think treating Mythra like the "damage machine" and Pyra like the "kill machine" will ultimately be detrimental to their metagames, especially in the case of Pyra. We saw a lot of PT mains treat Zard like the "kill machine" early on only for them to get frustrated that they weren't always getting instant kills and not being patient enough to play him to his other strengths.

To be fair to Mythra, Lightning Buster and Photon Edge do inflict pretty impressive amounts of damage on their own.

Some players go so far as to treat Pyra like she basically is Charizard, only coming out to push advantageous scenarios on the offence. But while Charizard has the movement to encourage keeping the ball rolling with him whenever possible, Pyra is more... the uppercut you throw with your left after you've been keeping the opponent off-balance with repeated jabs from your right. She's too slow to keep up the pressure unless her opponent is similarly sluggish, but if you are able to land the blows that send people flying, why should you just stand there and wait for them to come back when Mythra can resume her pressure? Sometimes all it takes is for Mythra to (threaten to) tap people once to get them to do something that Pyra can capitalize brutally on.

It would also be a disservice to assume Mythra is always better to use in neutral; we already have solid accounts of Pyra handling people who prefer to fight at range surprisingly well, and good tilt safety coupled with extra range can be very intimidating to those lacking in range or reliable burst options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Photon Edge is not a neutral tool.

Cut it out guys.

 

[DJ3DS]

Yeah, I just assumed gyro, header ball, and Gordos lose to these things like they would to any hitbox. Cause for concern for all three characters, but ROB in particular is probably not impacted much.

I think it impacts the matchup a fair amount actually, for two specific reasons:

- If Mythra catches ROB trying to get a gyro out (which he desperately wants in hand to help deal with her shield pressure), one single move allows her to tack on 20%, put ROB into his bad disadvantage state and send the gyro flying up and away taking longer to despawn.

- ROB can't fire a timed gyro offstage to intercept Mythra's horizontal recoveries, removing a good edgeguarding option.

ROB does have answers to these, of course (shield cancelling gyro charge to bait Photon Edge, fully charged laser to intercept horizontal recovery attempts) but the salient point is that most horizontal burst moves will at least trade or clank with gyro instead of swatting it away safely like Mythra does. Sephiroth can't Octaslash through it, for example.

 

[The_Bookworm]

We have the mobility attributes on the Aegis girls.



Weight - 98
The 32nd-35th heaviest character. Tied with Mario, Dr. Mario, and Corrin.

Dash Speed - 1.38
The 83rd fastest dash speed. The 6th slowest dash speed in the game. In-between Villager and Mii Gunner.

Initial Dash - 1.69 nice
The 79th fastest initial dash. The 9th slowest initial dash in the game. In-between the Belmonts and Banjo.

Air Speed - 1.1
The 37th-38th fastest air speed. Tied with Joker.

Air Acceleration - 0.01/0.055/0.065 (Base/Additional/Max)
The 55th-56th fastest air acceleration. Tied with Zelda.

Fall Speed - 1.62
The 40th fastest fall speed. In-between DK/Joker and Wario.

Overall
Possessing higher weight than Mythra can come in handy at times.

Her grounded mobility is extremely lacking, having bottom 10 dash and initial dash speeds.
Fun fact: Pyra actually travels slightly faster on the ground if you multi-dash with her instead of committing to the full run cycle. Mythra is the opposite, where her multi-dash is slower than her full dash.

However, her aerial mobility is actually surprisingly solid. Possessing an air speed faster than Marthcina and solid fall speed, she actually has some solid options in the air, mobility wise.

But overall, while Ultimate's DLC has introduced characters even less mobile than Pyra, her mobility is not very good at all. Good thing she can turn into one of the fastest characters in the game in an instant.



Mythra still no stock icon smh
Weight - 92
The 52nd-57th heaviest character. Tied with Ice Climbers, Lucario, Wolf, Villager, and Steve.

Run Speed - 2.41
The 5th fastest run speed. In-between Sheik and Fox.

Initial Dash - 2.45
The fastest initial dash in the game.

Air Speed - 1.22
The 11th fastest air speed. In-between Greninja and Captain Falcon.

Air Acceleration - 0.01/0.06/0.07 (Base/Additional/Max)
The 48th-53rd fastest air acceleration. Tied with Mewtwo, Incineroar, Cloud, Ridley, and Banjo.

Fall Speed - 1.87
The 7th fastest fall speed. In-between Pichu and Captain Falcon.

Overall
At higher percents players may stick to Mythra for the better recovery and being more evasive, but it comes at the cost of being notably lighter than Pyra. This makes juggling between the two for the sake of survival kinda tricky.

In terms of mobility, she is one of the fastest characters in the game. She has top tier ground mobility, alongside the likes of ZSS and Little Mac.
Air mobility isn't as impressive, but still very good. I do find it funny that her air acceleration is only barely faster than Pyra's.

Overall, she is amazing mobility-wise, and is by far the fastest DLC character introduced in the game, although there isn't really much competition for that title.


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Btw, Mew2King has released the Mythra video.

Edit: Btw, the thumbnail doesn't really have to do with character strength (somewhat), but Mew2King does get similar vibes with his Melee Marth and Brawl MK playstyle wise with Mythra. He does draw parallels within the video.

 

[Arthur97]

As much as they seemed to hype up Pyra's forward smash to the point of it being considered important enough to get a special page, anyone find it odd that it isn't the strongest one in the game?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

They are borderline op. How are they not be considered in any way? All the previous DLC, even- pre-nerfed even who for whatever reason became the most hated character in Japan even during era of online . All previous balanced, even the likes who ended up being pretty tame despite their inatial reactions . I think all of it has led everyone into a false sense of security when a bombshell like this would, in retrospect inevitably land. Now many people are welcoming, maybe not a Smash 4 Bayo, but Cloud level power with open arms


Old habits die hard.

 

[StrangeKitten]

They are borderline op. How are they not be considered in any way? All the previous DLC, even- pre-nerfed even who for whatever reason became the most hated character in Japan even during era of online . All previous balanced, even the likes who ended up being pretty tame despite their inatial reactions . I think all of it has led everyone into a false sense of security when a bombshell like this would, in retrospect inevitably land. Now many people are welcoming, maybe not a Smash 4 Bayo, but Cloud level power with open arms


Old habits die hard.

Agreed that they indeed seem very strong! I'm gonna reserve judgement as I'd like a little while to see them in tournament (online, but still) and think on the character and counterplay more. But you could be right! I have good faith in the dev team to nerf them properly if that ends up needing to be done, though. Smash 4 didn't quite get all the balance changes it needed because they were busy rolling into Ultimate, but I have a feeling we're at least a couple years off from the next game. DLC ending doesn't mean balance changes have to.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If I pay money for a character they better be high tier or better, dammit!!

 

[WatwatBreton]

Some random "day 1 playing against the character for 3 hours" thoughts:

• The lack of upward hitbox on Mythra's recovery might be an issue for her? Especially since she kind of bounces awkwardly and doesn't snap well if you fire the projectile for added distance. Could be ways to optimize it though (just like how Terry's rising tackle seemed bleh day one but is actually decent).
• Pyra's up b is very good - absurd kill power, good hitbox, not as easy to edgegard as chrom/ike coz she actually snaps (I think? Worried my memory is hazy lmao). She also has surprisingly good drift while doing it, which makes it not as easy to punish on stage as chrom/cloud/ike.
• Pyra neutral b is safe as heck on shield, buuut I think you can roll out of it if you shield the first hits and then punish her.
• I don't understand Mythra's side b yet lol, that move is extremely confusing to play against (where the heck is her hurtbox and hitbox?). It's possible to beat it toe to toe though but it felt a bit random to do outside of projectiles. Also a decent recovery tool? Might be weaker than it looks.
• You need to get good at teching Mythra's dash attack lol that move's angle is gross.
• seems ok against them, you can shuriken or whiff punish Pyra all day, you outdamage Mythra and he has strong horizontal edgegarding out of simple conversions (dash attack -> bair). On the other hand being light and having subpar approach options means that camping Pyra is the main way you're gonna deal with her, which could prove to be an issue if they get a lead or you get cornered. Mythra seemed... ok to deal with, she schmooves but has worse reward out of her burst options. felt a bit rougher, Mythra can be very suffocating. seems fine, and like gren has good horizontal edgegarding.
• Foresight feels like a CertainlyT LoL design: completely unnecessary, awesome to play as, frustrating to play against, has very strong potential for meta development. Not a fan.

The character seems aggressively tuned to be good overall, arguably the most DLC :tm: character we've seen so far in that aspect (except maybe Min Min, that usmash is not okay lmao). Not sure how good they are yet but at the very least they seem very decent and like they'll have tools for most matchups.

 

[NotLiquid]

I feel like I've gotten more spikes from Pyra's DAir than any spike in the game except maybe Ivysaur's. Gonna be interesting to get the hitbox data on this, it seems kinda obscene.

Fun strat for people playing her online and are forced to do dittos; if you're anticipating a recovering Mythra to Photon Edge directly toward the ledge rather than recovering high and drifting, try jumping above the ledge and doing a DAir. Half decent chance you'll actually catch her hurtbox for an easy kill.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Pyra's up b is very good - absurd kill power, good hitbox, not as easy to edgegard as chrom/ike coz she actually snaps (I think? Worried my memory is hazy lmao). She also has surprisingly good drift while doing it, which makes it not as easy to punish on stage as chrom/cloud/ike.

I'd say "good" is an understatement. Pyra's up-B is absurd.

It kills heavies at something like 110%~120%, and that's from the other side of the stage. Probably not too far off from that for super-heavies. It's an OoS option that kills, and its vertical hitbox is just nuts. It reaches way higher than it seems, and also reaches below ledge and below platforms. Every part of the hitbox is really strong too.

I am aware that it's still punishable and it's also possible to DI away from the 2nd hit. However that 2nd hit is also dependent on the mentioned drift you are talking about, if they guess your DI correctly then they're going to still hit you and KO you.

EDIT: I think Larry said it best - "That's not... ok. That's just not okay"

Pardon my hastiness

But I cannot believe this character came out the way they did. If they somehow don't end up top tier I'll be shocked. Mythra moreso, I think Pyra kinda sucks but she'll have her moments.

I'm with you all the way here.

In my experience, you can just do neutral with Mythra, and then get a ledge-trap or air-dodge punish with Pyra. That's all the moments she needs, kinda like Charizard 1.0.0 (except better).

I'd be surprised if they aren't nerfed. I know they've only been around for less than a week but like... the duo is clearly busted. Mythra alone could be top tier too but I truly believe that using Pyra for cheese is what makes this character top 5 the way they currently are.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I feel like I've gotten more spikes from Pyra's DAir than any spike in the game except maybe Ivysaur's. Gonna be interesting to get the hitbox data on this, it seems kinda obscene.

Fun strat for people playing her online and are forced to do dittos; if you're anticipating a recovering Mythra to Photon Edge directly toward the ledge rather than recovering high and drifting, try jumping above the ledge and doing a DAir. Half decent chance you'll actually catch her hurtbox for an easy kill.

This is what the hitbox data looks like for the spike portion of the move (w/ interpolation included); the spike portion lasts for two frames, half the duration of the move itself:

Uniquely enough, Pyra's spike starts as soon as the first hitbox comes out, which ends up giving the spike some ridiculously generous horizontal range, especially compared to other "arched" DAir spikes like Arsene Joker's or Marthcina's where the spike only begins directly below them.

I would imagine its not even that hard to land considering that Pyra's air movement is nowhere close to being bad.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Okay how was this character released like this. All of this is goddamn nuts. Did the team somehow suddenly think they were creating DLC for Smash 4. How is any of this okay?

 

[Arthur97]

I don't know, I'm a bit cautious about going off stage as Pyra for dairs. Yeah, you can make it back, but it seems pretty tight.

Talking about nerfs also seems way too premature. Though, even if they do, hopefully they moreso rebalance Pyra and Mythra. Either way, they at least do have a weakness or two. It's not like they are unstoppable.

 

[Firox]

Does anyone have any numerical data for how much Mii Gunner's Fsmash was lengthened? I only see the vague patch notes that say the hit box was increased.

(Not sure why the devs would decide to lengthen an already stupidly long move like that. It's like arbitrarily making Seph's sword longer cuz why the hell not?)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Does anyone have any numerical data for how much Mii Gunner's Fsmash was lengthened? I only see the vague patch notes that say the hit box was increased.

(Not sure why the devs would decide to lengthen an already stupidly long move like that. It's like arbitrarily making Seph's sword longer cuz why the hell not?)

With lengthened, they meant that they got rid of the blind spot it used to have.

This video shows the hitboxes before and after

 

[Arthur97]

Also, on another note, are Min Min's nerfs really that significant? Doesn't seem like they'd be that detrimental.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Also, on another note, are Min Min's nerfs really that significant? Doesn't seem like they'd be that detrimental.

The biggest thing is that she can't kill you at 0% on the ledge with back throw F smash anymore

 

[Rizen]

Okay how was this character released like this. All of this is goddamn nuts. Did the team somehow think they were creating DLC for Smash 4. How is any of this okay?

IKR; I just had Mythra foresight out of 's Dtilt combos. Pyra's upB killed him at 79%!

 

[SKX31]

Also, on another note, are Min Min's nerfs really that significant? Doesn't seem like they'd be that detrimental.

Kinda think the air dodge nerf is a little significant (FAF 40 → 51, which matches the rest of the cast) since it worsens her disadvantage, but I don't think that alone is enough to drop her that much. Still, it's going to affect her in some situations IMHO.

 

[NairWizard]

If anything about the new character is broken (and I don't think they're very broken overall, having played them a ton now), it's Foresight. Foresight makes Bats Within look like a joke, holy ingots Batman.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Shuton takes She-Ra to tournament. Vs Roy.

TAMISUMA 235 Round 3 - Shuton (Pyra & Mythra) Vs. Onies (Roy) SSBU Smash Ultimate

TAMISUMA is an Online Smash Bros. Ultimate Tournament in JapanBracket: https://smashmate.net/bracket/4287/Follow aMSa!▼Twitchhttps://twitch.tv/amsayoshi▼Yout...

youtu.be

It's amazing how quickly Roy catches up on percent after getting slapped around by Mythra.

 

[Lancerech]

I'd say "good" is an understatement. Pyra's up-B is absurd.

It kills heavies at something like 110%~120%, and that's from the other side of the stage. Probably not too far off from that for super-heavies. It's an OoS option that kills, and its vertical hitbox is just nuts. It reaches way higher than it seems, and also reaches below ledge and below platforms. Every part of the hitbox is really strong too.

I am aware that it's still punishable and it's also possible to DI away from the 2nd hit. However that 2nd hit is also dependent on the mentioned drift you are talking about, if they guess your DI correctly then they're going to still hit you and KO you.

From what I can tell from testing, Pyra's Up B has a sweet spot that's easier to land with platforms. The flame pillar is much weaker than this sweetspot and you can survive it pretty well with DI. You will usually hit with the flame pillar if you use it OOS. You'll only get the sweetspot if you don't land the rising hit, or if both you and your opponent are below a platform. I feel like the move is okay partially because frame 13 OOS isn't all that good.

 

[Anomilus]

Wanna see more people pushing Pyra's neutral. Short-hop DAir, BAir, and Full-hop FAir have no landing lag, her tilts are plenty quick for their range, and as mentioned her air movement isn't exactly bad. She can contest space and force people out of comfortable positions with Blazing End, and Flame Nova while short ranged is unusually difficult to punish. And of course NAir and Up B out of shield is a good thing (EDIT - ...or not. Iunno. ).

Not saying anything profound here. Just feel like I'm gonna quickly grow tired of all the Mythra talk and praise. And the Charizard comparisons.

 

[Minix0]

Yeah way too soon to call them top tier. This happens like every DLC.

Remember when Steve was top tier? Maybe they are maybe they aren't but I don't wanna jump the gun.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So far Void uses Aegis the way I envision. Calm and cool precision with incredibly abusive trap situations.

He discovers VERY early that Lightning Blade is actually nuts and abuses it well in low to the ground landing traps especially after d-tilt near the ledge. He also uses it for missed techs on platforms thanks to the vacuum hitbox.

Mythra is OD.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If mythra had the same design principles and reasoning as banjo you'd only be able ot switch three times per life and foresight wouldn't exist.
characters in season 2 have not had balance at the forefront of their design they have made these characters accurate to source material and will attempt to fix problems later, in other words, this is smash 4 DLC design choices.

does anyone think any characters do well vs them? I have nothing really to support this but i think both sepiroth and joker will be fine vs Ras for different reasons.

sephiroth is an elite edge guarder and when offline returns in wide play i think he will take the biggest leap forward in general. he will require precision but th epayoff vs Ra will be great IMO.

joker is still such a solid character through and through I have a hard time seeing him get blown out by anyone. and with proper projectile play he can slow the game down while mythra has to be on pyra to have any projectile.

I could see Diddy doing well against the Aegis sisters for the same reason he does well against Lucina. But Mythra is just so fast, and Diddy doesn't like that at all as he can easily be comboed by combo heavy characters. I will try him out again them soon.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yeah way too soon to call them top tier. This happens like every DLC.

Remember when Steve was top tier? Maybe they are maybe they aren't but I don't wanna jump the gun.

People theorized Steve was top tier only when he was shown off at the Sakurai presents.
When he actually came out, players become incredibly divided on his tier placement, but for the most part, no one believed that he was top tier outside of the very few people super optimistic on the character.

I think the most accurate comparison is Hero.
Players went crazy about the character when he has shown off, not just because of the RNG involved, but also due to seemingly absurd spells like Thwack, Magic Burst, and Kazap, aka the type of spells you will almost never see hit in a real high level play. But as time goes on, Hero's reps dropped quickly and he became a mostly forgotten character in competitive play, outside of the occasional pick by Salem.

I too agree that it is too early to jump the gun on whether she is top tier or not, but she definitely looks promising.
It is mostly because the duo is such as fundamentally powerful character in terms of their moveset and attributes, and not because of a powerful gimmick attached to an otherwise mediocre character (Hero).

 

[meleebrawler]

Nah, they're just Melee characters (good ones, anyway) in Ultimate. Crazy combos and pressure, some movement momentum shenanigans with transforming, can kill very fast, but prone to getting blown up in disadvantage and a tendency to die if you look at them funny offstage. Heck, they even come with helplessness causing side specials and Pyra's up special even simulates the former game's complete inability to grab ledges if you're facing the wrong way.

Who'd have thunk the name of the outfit "Massive Melee Mythra" would have been so appropriate?

 

[Minix0]

People theorized Steve was top tier only when he was shown off at the Sakurai presents.

Disagree, I've seen plenty of sentiment after then even on this site that he was "busted".

And yes, they do have promise, but people are also forgetting they have trash tier recoveries, Mythra is relatively weak, Pyra is very slow and has a good but very committal ledge trapping option/has a good OoS in up-b but gets punished hard by missing, Mythra's specials are quite committal and punishable (Ridley skewer is literally safer on shield than her side b), and even their safe on shield neutral specials are quite reactable.

Oh and Pyra's fastest oos option is frame 13 too, the slowest in the game.

Yes maybe they're top tier after all, I'm just saying that literally every single time a character comes everyone on the internet is like "OMG BROKEN LOOK AT THIS COMBO THAT KILZ AT 80 JDKSUHGBJVDHFCKJ)". People jump to extremes very fast.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've played quite a bit more, but all online, not exactly great quality games. (But better than average for online--thanks, peak times.)

The worst matchup I've found for the duo so far is easily . Even though they have the tools to catch Joker if he gets predictable with his dominant options, and even though Mythra can run from Arsene quite well, it's just a bad time. Joker's unique take on "sword sheik + kill power gimmick" is structured in a way that answers Mythra's version well--I was constantly trading hits unfavorably in all my Joker games. In particular, decent Joker play was shutting down my recoveries pretty effortlessly.

Otherwise, stood out as somewhat annoying, but I'd want to play better Clouds to see how it really plays out, how far Cloud can really push his neutral against Mythra's.

A lot of played as well but no opinion on it, other than that it's really fun. I was surprised how little Foresight helped me in this matchup, especially when I think of Falcon going for greedy pseudo-combos a lot. There was a moment where I got an immediate Falcon Dive tech and tried to do him dirty, and I was delighted to see that he effortlessly evaded me. What a time to be alive.

Easiest matchups was a poor I played. No idea what Kirby is supposed to do.


On my characters... I got in a lot of games with , and all played pretty well. I was surprised how well Isabelle did, probably outperformed the others. I used Fishing Rod to call out so much stuff, and trap was a really big deal--especially when Pyra is out. I can't imagine this being better with Villager. I was killing at pretty low %s for Isabelle, and it wasn't even gimps per se. Mythra just has to get so nervous off-stage,and her options are so boxed in, that I could often just checkmate her in one way or another.

My Straight Lunge gimmick with Mac really did work wonders, but it's no silver bullet; both girls can outspace Mac consistently and that's a pretty big threat to work around. I found myself using Slip Counter more than usual against Mythra, because in most situations the price of her reading it was... not much. It felt like the Straight Lunge gimmick merely redeemed a matchup I otherwise wouldn't want to play.

Incineroar, I just used Revenge a ton against Mythra, and a surprising amount against ambitious Pyra YOLOs you'd typically block. If they actually try to start grabbing a lot, okay great whatever. Otherwise I'll eventually land a bair, neutral-b, or (God willing) a side-b, and it will do literally 10x that of some Mythra hits. But more importantly, Incineroar has a lot of moves that send somewhat low horizontally, and a very meaty nair that gimps their recoveries quite easily.

The ditto is fun. Both girls are pretty good at gimping themselves, so it's a good crash course in their biggest weakness.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Regardless on If or How OP you think Pyra/Mythra are. I think one think most of us can come together and agree on is that Foresight is degenerate AF. That is one thing that really should be looked at. I dno if it's just online play, but it looking like it's bat within on crack. Just imagine if Mythra had decent kill power..jeebuz.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Thoughts on new character's weaknesses:

• OOS game seems kind of poor for both Pyra and Mythra. They don't have the fastest up-b, up-smash, or aerials so they seem to be somewhat susceptible to being stuck in shield.
• Both of their recoveries seem quite bad. Mythra's side-b is hard to mess with but I have managed to hit her out of it a few times, even offstage. It's also not that safe on shield so if she misses ledge and lands onstage without hitting you, it's punishable. Mythra's recovery seems pretty locked to a single direction (horizontal or vertical) and while Pyra's up-b travels further vertically, it has similar problems while also suffering from the downwards spike (which is likely meant to stop people from trying to mess with it) being incredibly weak..
• Pyra seems to be somewhat susceptible to being pressured up close because of her poor speed and frame data, a lot more than Mythra. She generally seems like she struggles to land hits.
• Some of their options don't seem that safe on shield, although I wouldn't consider their ability to safely shields to be bad necessarily, just average.
• Mythra's fall speed will likely make her extremely susceptible to being comboed by some characters.
• Mythra's damage output per move seems quite low, similarly to Sheik although her combo game somewhat makes up for this.
• Mythra generally seems to struggle a lot to kill. I don't think she's amazing at edgeguarding (she lacks a strong offstage finisher like a strong b-air or bouncing fish and I think she'll struggle to edgeguard most good recoveries) and don't think she can constantly end stocks offstage. And her kill power onstage seems genuinely bad outside of landing a fully charged up-smash or getting a read with f-smash. I've seen a handful of confirms for Mythra, but not many and some of them don't start working until fairly high percents. I do not think Pyra is that good (both on her own and as part of the team due to her poor speed and frame data making her less desirable for racking up damage or winning neutral) but I do think that players will be forced to switch to Pyra to get kills.

Overall though I think this character is good. The duos OOS game and recoveries, along with having to rely on Pyra for kills I think will be the biggest weaknesses that these characters have going forward.

My early impressions of this character on the tier list is that Mythra is a high tier on her own, probably somewhere between 30th and 40th on the tier list. Her move speed and combo game are both extremely good and she feels like she can overwhelm a lot of characters, but her inability to seal stocks and her recovery are fairly big weaknesses I feel.

I can't help but feel like Pyra is comparable to a slightly better version of Byleth. Pyra honestly feels undertuned compared to Mythra (I think it's a similar situation to pre-patch Ivy and Zard), and while trading speed and frame data for kill power may make Pyra decent online or in doubles, I think offline Pyra is not going to be very useful outside of ledgetrapping with her side-b and for potentially getting kills. Probably a very low mid tier or low tier offline on her own.

When used together I think Pyra/Mythra are also high tier, most likely within the Top 30, with potential to be Top 20 (I really don't see them being Top 10 with the amount of weaknesses that they have, and I'm skeptical about them even being Top 20). Pyra/Mythra when used together benefit from having a slightly higher chance of getting kills at reasonable percents and better ledgetrapping with Pyra's side-b compared to Mythra on her own. Overall though I actually don't think there is a significant benefit to using Pyra and Mythra over just Mythra. Pyra's just too underwhelming to make that significant of a difference I feel.

 

[Thinkaman]

Random thoughts:

I think in my 100+ games today, I had one win screen as Mythra.

I love Mythra jab and neutral-b, got so much mileage out of both of them.

I had way more luck getting kills by switching back and forth between the two than just policy-switching to Pyra at 115% or so. The conditioning is real.

I play Pyra better when I play her like a holistic character and imagine I'm playing Ganondorf or Ike, than if I think of her as a killbot for Mythra. When I do that, I end up tunnel-visioning really hard on specific kill moves like up-b.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Watching Shuton vs Onies, Roy doesn't seem bad in the matchup at all. He has the speed and power to keep up well. It looks like an even matchup to me. Yeah, Onies won by good amount, but it was clear that Shuton isn't familiar with playing Pyra & Mythra at all. He was going off of his good fundies and doesn't have their combos or neutral down pat much yet. If the matchup does end up Pyra & Mythra favored, I don't think it'll be by too much.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The thing about Pyra is when you realize she has Gannon level kill power, her frame data does not exactly terrible in comparison. Yes she has lots of stuff that is very punishable. But many of her airiels can be relatively safe with landing canceling. I mean her f-smash alone is considerably faster than Gannons despite being around just as strong, and big..

 

[Frihetsanka]

• OOS game seems kind of poor for both Pyra and Mythra. They don't have the fastest up-b, up-smash, or aerials so they seem to be somewhat susceptible to being stuck in shield.

Mythra having Foresight is pretty significant though.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Lol I can still frame trap with Eiha. Nerfs did nothin', Joker still busted

 

[NotLiquid]

I think it's kinda pointless to debate how much quantifiably worse Pyra is than Mythra on any given sunday.

It's been no secret since day zero that Mythra is generally the superior option whenever you're playing neutral. The more important point is that at very few moments does Mythra get weighed down by the fact that Pyra is an ever accessible asset, and Pyra only serves to get punched up in the process. Think about all the times you might've played Mario or Chrom, and hoped that you could gain accessibility to just one of the moves of their clones in a snap situation, whether it's Doc's superior out-of-shield killing up B, or Roy's better up B recovery move. For these two girls, this is the niche that Shulk and Pokémon Trainer has served to really warm people up for. We don't have to worry about a "worse" version of a character existing; we can bring out the "worse" version to take advantage of their strengths without long-term drawbacks in the times when they truly matter.

It's somewhat common for a lot of prospective tier makers out there to divvy up Pokémon Trainer's individual forms separate from each other before ranking their "collective" unit far higher. It's always been a bit weird to me but I can sort of get the intent with how each of the three tend to carry a specific level of influence when it comes to just making the selection. The last time I talked about PT here, a few quotes brought up that some Pokémon will be opted over others for certain matchups. Something I neglected to mention was how it served to vindicate my point at the time; with every matchup you're often selecting the character with the predisposed knowledge that your entire game plan will intrinsically revolve around one of them as a de facto perpetual point character. It sort of has to be, because Pokémon swaps aren't like Monado Arts; you can't go from Ivysaur back to Squirtle without first going to Charizard. You have to take the long way around. If playing Pokémon Trainer is like playing traditional chess, then playing Pyra and Mythra is like playing under bullet chess rules. Pyra and Mythra can't be ranked outside of a unit because their adjustments perpetuate even in the times when you're pushing advantage. Even if Pyra's usage ultimately ends up boiling down to scoring KOs or setting up tech chase traps with her overall stronger utility specials, she's still a great character by mere association.