Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Firox]

So I've only had about an hour or so to tinker with Pythra, but here's my early take:

Mythra: This girl is stupidly fast, like, bordering on comical levels of speed. She's like Roy on steroids. That said, she does hit like a pillow and the knockback on almost all of her attacks puts people in this up-and-out trajectory that makes it incredibly difficult to kill with anything but Fsmash and a charged Neutral B (interestingly, she has very low friction with the ground allowing for a sliding charged B attack). Foresight is cool but surprisingly hard for me to trigger at will. She's got a lot of combos and follow ups, but I find her range to be surprisingly lacking and as others have said, her recovery is meh but I find her Side B to be a surprisingly good alternative to Up B when people are camping right at the ledge. I'm also not a huge fan of both her and Pyra's Fair/Bair animations. They swipe upward instead of downward like most swordies which makes it sometimes difficult to nail landing hits. And remember when I though the Nair might be broke? It ain't. Multi-hit is nice and the hitbox is OK, but the knockback is difficult to follow up and the range is surprisingly poor as I mentioned before. Definitely a far cry from Palu or Sm4sh Cloud's Nairs.

Pyra: Ganondorfian amounts of strength, able to kill pretty much any medium-weight or above at 80-90% with just about anything. Unfortunately, she's hard balanced with terrible mobility and the hit box on her neutral B is frustratingly small. Can't tell you how many times I try to land the neutral B, both grounded and aerial charged, but the opponent just slapped me out of it with a tap to my head or feet. It's basically a crappier version of Hero's Kazap minus the super armor (which makes all the difference). Also, her Up B seems to have a wonky hitbox on the way back down allowing some characters to fall out of it and avoid the crushing blow at the end. Still, she's definitely the go-to pick when it's time to close out a stock.

Obviously, with more practice and finesse, I could see them being easily high tier or above if for nothing else due to their versatility and being fairly good at their individual roles. Disjoints are always an advantage as well. That said, my initial impression is that they are far from broken and I predict they will still struggle against characters that can outstrip their strengths (ie, zoners canceling out mobility advantage or fast characters outmaneuvering Pyra when it's time to finish them off).

 

[Thinkaman]

Hitbox interpolation would mean that at the very least, it hits where it used to fo an extra frame. So if his last active frame pre-patch hit above the platforms, the buff makes it hit above the platforms for an extra frame.

I suppose that's true--the net effect is just so small that I have been unable to construct any case in-game where it matters.

Based on previous patches + common sense, if platform coverage was their actual goal, they would adjust the hitbox size--even if they did it conservatively by only changing it on the apex frames or making a bigger ground-only hitbox. AFAIK we've never had a tweak like this before, for that or any other assumed goal.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Thoughts on the changes made this patch:

• and got rockcrocking seemingly removed which is nice for both of them. Ganon likely hasn't been pulled out of the bottom 2, but the distance between him and Mac has grown slightly. I still believe Falcon to be overrated, but he's likely towards the top of mid tier as a result of this change. Solo-viability is something that I think isn't possible for him without nerfs to Inkling/Luigi/Pika/G&W/some of his other bad MUs but he's definitely a lot better than he was at Ultimate's launch.
• buffs are nice, but don't address their issues of speed, linear hitboxes, poor frame data, or their lack of tools against projectiles. The main thing this patch gave them was a slightly better OOS game which is nice, and may get this character out of bottom tier, but probably won't get them out of low tier.
• gordo changes were nice. I think this character was one of the better low tiers before this patch, now I think he could potentially be on the bottom of mid tier.
• changes make him slightly less fragile. A change to self damage on t-jolts would have been massive, but these changes were still solid. Might bump him a few spots up on the tier list, but he's likely still just a solid but volatile high tier like he was before this update.
• got all extremely minor changes to hit detection or range on a move. These characters are effectively the same as before.
• banana nerfs barely matter. Mainly just prevents further infinites from being discovered which I don't think harms this character significantly. He has solid enough tools to get by without infinite.
• nerfs matter a bit, however I still think this character is likely Top 5 and if not, are definitely Top 10. I think characters who get heavy reward for parrying like Fox and Luigi will welcome the changes to f-air, and her grab changes will make pressuring her shield a bit easier, but overall Palu's still really good, she just has to play slightly safer than before.
• nerfs prevent him from abusing counter and Eiha as much as before. However Eiha and counter still seems fairly safe to throw out, they're just a bit easier to punish than before. Still likely Top 3, I don't think this patch changed much for him.
• , like Palu and Joker, didn't change much, she's still high tier IMO. Dragon Arm f-smash being weaker and having a shorter max charge time means that they're going to be slightly less threatening at ledge, but I don't think this matters much overall.
• 's changes matter a bit, but she's most likely Top 10. I don't think she's Top 5 anymore though. Her ability to pressure shields for free is worse and her ability to escape shield pressure herself is worse. However despite these options being worse, they are both still pretty good options, it's just that more counterplay exists for them now.
• 's nerfs potentially seem comparable to Pichu's. Up-tilt's hitbox no longer lingers for way longer than it should and waft has worse startup which makes it worse OOS and landing confirms will likely be harder. Waft up-tilt is supposedly gone entirely. That's potentially really big as it was one of his best confirms. Up-tilt in general has become a worse combo starter, and while n-air and landing up-air are still good combo starters, his easiest to land combo starter being significantly worse is massive change for him. Before this patch, I thought Wario was 10th best in the game, but I'm actually wondering if he'll be top tier anymore. His matchup spread (which was already somewhat lackluster for a top tier) will likely suffer as a result of this patch, he's going to be harder to use, and his best way to confirm kills just got taken from him. These nerfs weren't exactly undeserved, but this character seems like he got hit harder by a patch than any character has in a long time. I don't see him being a bad character as a result of these changes, but he's definitely worse than before.
• There were some unlisted changes in this patch that were semi-notable as well that are worth mentioing.
  • header now supposedly has 4 frames of landing lag instead of 9. This seems to have opened up a lot of combo routes for this character that they previously didn't have.
  • The final hit of 's dash attack no longer deals set knockback, reverting the change it got last patch along with the fixes to the multihits.
  • A bug that allowed to duplicate hitboxes of his smash attacks using frame perfect inputs with can seems to have been patched.

The characters that I think benefitted a decent amount to the nerfs that characters got this patch:

• all will likely get a lot more reward for parrying against ZSS n-air and Palu f-air and should be able to pressure their shields easier.
  
  
• benefits from anything that makes Palutena and ZSS even slightly less relevant. I think he benefits from the landing lag changes Palu and ZSS got less than the characters I already listed do, but he may benefit from being able to pressure ZSS's shield a bit easier.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I am personally glad that up-tilt to waft is gone. Never should've been a thing imo.

Wii Fit's lag reduction for side-B is not okay though:

https://twitter.com/kamotter2905/status/1367741966545424386

 

[DJ3DS]

That said, my initial impression is that they are far from broken and I predict they will still struggle against characters that can outstrip their strengths (ie, zoners canceling out mobility advantage or fast characters outmaneuvering Pyra when it's time to finish them off).

I want to touch on this because it feels back to front to me - Zoners don't cancel out Mythra's mobility advantage. If anything, it's the other way out. It becomes very difficulty to keep out someone with Mythra's mobility stats and not many characters who want to keep her out have the appropriate options to deal with her when she gets in.

The latter is a legitimate concern. As clearly good as Mythra is, I've not yet seen her have a good kill confirm, and neither her nor Pyra really seem to threaten off a grab. I fully expect Mythra to be optimised more for killing to avoid this issue though.

The one real issue I could see for Mythra is her disadvantage. She falls fast and isn't too heavy, so is susceptible to comboes and a lot of jablock setups. Her vertical recovery is also pretty questionable to me. If she's close enough she can sweet spot it, but if Mythra has to use the second part of the move, there is a massive window of time where she's completely vulnerable to being spiked.

 

[StrangeKitten]

It's day 1 and I'm already able to rack up stupid amounts of damage with Mythra. This character is amazing!

 

[Gleam]

Removing/Reducing Tech Checking for Ganondorf (and probably Falcon) is probably one of the best things to ever happen to Ganondorf...ever. You've finally addressed what is perhaps his worst, most exploitative weakness as a character. It might not help him much in the short term (you still all kinds of other issues with Ganondorf) but it's the kind of fix that if they were to continue offering improvements to Ganondorf via patches, could actually boost Ganondorf upwards.

If tech checking hadn't been, well, checked, I highly doubt any patches that Ganondorf got would have ever helped him. Now that this problem can't be exploited, maybe now Ganon can finally survive past 70% and let some of his strengths come into hand. I'm now more confident that Ganondorf can reach Mid Tier (especially with a few more patch buffs) than I ever would have had this problem not been resolved.

 

[DavemanCozy]

As clearly good as Mythra is, I've not yet seen her have a good kill confirm, and neither her nor Pyra really seem to threaten off a grab. I fully expect Mythra to be optimised more for killing to avoid this issue though.

Mythra can 2frame with d-tilt at the ledge, if she does it's a free f-smash and that kills at a reasonable percent range.

I saw Leffen labbing that on his stream with Foresight too and it looks like it can screw over a fair amount of recoveries:

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

clips.twitch.tv

EDIT: note combo counter registers it as true

This character is nuts honestly. I can't believe she has sword range (granted, not the best sword range) + top tier movement + great combo potential.

 

[DJ3DS]

Tha

Mythra can 2frame with d-tilt at the ledge, if she does it's a free f-smash and that kills at a reasonable percent range.

I saw Leffen labbing that on his stream with Foresight too and it looks like it can screw over a fair amount of recoveries:

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

clips.twitch.tv

EDIT: note combo counter registers it as true

This character is nuts honestly. I can't believe she has sword range (granted, not the best sword range) + top tier movement + great combo potential.

That's disgusting. The characters ridiculous juggling already makes you gravitate towards low recoveries so being able to mess with low ones to this degree could be a big problem.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Yeah, Techchecking is mostly impossible now.
Falcon is on his way to Top Tier...


Also, updates on Mac's Up-Smash?
Is the active hitbox back to Sm4sh's values?

EDIT: Yeah they did.
10-13 > 10-14.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm really curious about the data on Flame Nova.

I might be imagining things but that move feels a little too good right now. It's pretty solid for ledgetrapping, can hit underneath platforms, and is powerful in its own right, but it's also really easy to space and feels a lot safer on block than it should be. I'm curious how much of this safety is intentional given it already has better directional coverage than Lightning Buster. I overall figured that Pyra's specials would be better than Mythra's, but this one currently feels like the best one between the two characters.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I'm really curious about the data on Flame Nova.

I might be imagining things but that move feels a little too good right now. It's pretty solid for ledgetrapping, can hit underneath platforms, and is powerful in its own right, but it's also really easy to space and feels a lot safer on block than it should be. I'm curious how much of this safety is intentional given it already has better directional coverage than Lightning Buster. I overall figured that Pyra's specials would be better than Mythra's, but this one currently feels like the best one between the two characters.

Charged flame nova is +2 on shield which makes it super safe to hit with.

One thing I will say though is that lighting buster having a looping hitbox at the top (while charging it, kind of like Corin's f-smash) makes it an off-ledge option. It's not safe per say, but I've gotten the top hitbox while jumping back onstage and then hitting with the move.

Originally I was trying it off ledge because it has invincibility when you release it, but I wasn't expecting there to be a hitbox above her while charging.

EDIT: "not safe" because you can space around it.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Also, her Up B seems to have a wonky hitbox on the way back down allowing some characters to fall out of it and avoid the crushing blow at the end.

Can confirm this happened to me more times than necessary, I can already tell this is gonna be an obnoxious trait that people will rightfully complain about in the coming months.. Also it seems Steve's up smash of all things can beat Pyra's up b, this one surprised me considering the magma block tends to clank with other moves and I thought Pyra's sword hitbox was gonna beat this out, but hey I'll take it.

 

[Rizen]

: I'm going to reserve judgements until I see their frame data and hitboxes but my initial reaction to playing them is WTF were the devs smoking when they balanced this character?!!!

 

[Firox]

WTF were the devs smoking when they balanced this character?!!!

They thought to themselves, "Hey, should we make the next swordie a slow power-type or a fast combo-rushdown-type?" to which Sakurai replied, "Why not both?"

 

[SKX31]

So has anyone managed to get a hold of Pyra's / Myhtra's attributes or stats (like dash speed, air speed etc.) yet? Meshima (the guy who usually posts the stats, such as Sephiroth's) seems to have been busy at work, so there's not been anything from him.

Tha

That's disgusting. The characters ridiculous juggling already makes you gravitate towards low recoveries so being able to mess with low ones to this degree could be a big problem.

That doesn't seem intentional from Sakurai and co's PoVs - since Foresight applies to all dodges they might not have prioritized or even considered those interactions with those recoveries. Leffen needed a D-Tilt to confirm it too, which makes me believe that it might not have come up often during development and playtesting. Don't get me wrong, they should've prioritized those a bit more, but misjudgements can and do happen.

We'll have to see if it becomes enough of an issue for a future patch, but chances are looking kinda decent that they will if Leffen discovered that Day 1.

 

[Aaron1997]

I feel is big winner here to. His worst MU got just a little bit easier. He's also one of the bigger beneficiaries from the nerfs since he's more likely to punish Eiha on reaction with high reward projectiles like Galaxian and Bell and making the reflector riskier is always going to help. nerfs cm be huge if he can N-air OOS (He can for sure Up-B OOS now).

 

[Rizen]

The more I play as and against , the more I get the feeling they're going to be the next . Mythra's attacks are stupidly fast for her Lucina like reach and Sheik like agility and then Pyra's very strong. Mythra alone could be top tier.

 

[Nah]

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here, it’s day 2

rather hasty to claim that Pyra/Mythra is gonna be some broken monstrosity, and I don’t think that’s gonna happen

 

[Emblem Lord]

Charged flame nova is +2 on shield which makes it super safe to hit with.

One thing I will say though is that lighting buster having a looping hitbox at the top (while charging it, kind of like Corin's f-smash) makes it an off-ledge option. It's not safe per say, but I've gotten the top hitbox while jumping back onstage and then hitting with the move.

Originally I was trying it off ledge because it has invincibility when you release it, but I wasn't expecting there to be a hitbox above her while charging.

EDIT: "not safe" because you can space around it.

Yup. Vacuum hitbox on the sword while charging. Can also suck you through platforms. She is a platform trapping monster.

Photon Edge is also a frame trap beast. They whiff a button and you just side b. Free 20% and they are back in disadvantage.

Her trap game is the most mindless nonsense ever and this is coming from a Terry player.

 

[meleebrawler]

The more I play as and against , the more I get the feeling they're going to be the next . Mythra's attacks are stupidly fast for her Lucina like reach and Sheik like agility and then Pyra's very strong. Mythra alone could be top tier.

Pyra & Mythra already have more meaningful disadvantages than Smash 4 Bayonetta ever did. Like having an actual disadvantage state, including a recovery with weaknesses. And as effective as Mythra's combos may be, they're still not 0-death ladders.

What will likely be a big part of fighting Mythra going forward is just... staying calm and not making rash decisions. Yes her frame data is fast for a swordfighter, but it still isn't without openings in the pressure she can try to apply. She certainly isn't going to be popping any shields any time soon. The worst thing you can do is get frazzled jumping around too much and possibly trying to chase her, which makes you vulnerable to air-to-air conversions and Photon Edge (very much what I'd consider a wi-fi boosted move to boot). Perhaps even disciplining ourselves by fighting her with Little Mac?

And once people learn to do that, maybe then will Mythra players learn to appreciate Pyra having a projectile that can force players to sit in blockstun while she closes in, or bait them into coming closer themselves to make her stop doing that.

 

[Firox]

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here, it’s day 2

rather hasty to claim that Pyra/Mythra is gonna be some broken monstrosity, and I don’t think that’s gonna happen

Not only that, but consider the reason why Sm4sh Bayo was broken to begin with. She had a super easy and consistent 0-death ladder combo with a broken down B, insane angular approach tools and great frame data to boot. Sure Pythra has the speed and strength toolbox, but there's still counter play. There's no auto-win combo on Mythra that bars you from resisting instant death. Let's give them a few months of pro exposure before we start overrating their capabilities.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize meleebrawler beat me to the punch.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I don't touch Ultimate online because it sucks.

That kinda just suggests they only noticed it because of Japanese players where Ultimate's online sucks less.

If it's about diversity, then 3 and a half top players is not that many either. Fox is oversaturated by that logic.

Well that's not what I meant to suggest. I was trying to talk about offline and how Wario was one of the most-repped characters in addition to consistently getting top placements. It's true that it took the devs a long time to respond to that, but they finally have. Others in the thread here have been able to provide the data that backs up Wario being a bit too successful. That's why I feel like having a move that kills at 40 with a multitude of true lead-ins to it was unhealthy for the meta, and only would have gotten worse over time.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Another limiting aspect to Pyra/Mythra that I've seen mentioned in passing but not really discussed is their recovery. Is it just me, or is it kind of bad?

 

[Arthur97]

It's not great, but Mythra's does add good airspeed at least. Not absolutely terrible, but it's certainly not amazing. Pyra's up special is at least fast, and from what I've read, it goes higher in the air while Mythra is your go to for horizontal movement.

 

[meleebrawler]

Another limiting aspect to Pyra/Mythra that I've seen mentioned in passing but not really discussed is their recovery. Is it just me, or is it kind of bad?

The two of them have a number of options to cover their return, it's just that each one has their own downsides so you always need to be mindful of what you can do and not become too predictable. For example, we've all seen how Pyra can throw Blazing End at someone standing near the ledge, and while this could easily be a SD sentence if she burned her jump, it can otherwise ensure she grabs the ledge with no 2-frame interference, or how Photon edge is the go-to horizontal recovery option and is great to use if the opponent jumps out at Mythra too early, but it loses handily to projectiles and is one of the few side bs to put one in helplessness (so much for "DLC privilege").

And like Pokemon Trainer, the fact that they can swap at all often puts enough doubt in the opponent so that they seldom try to actively edgeguard the two as much as they probably would otherwise.

 

[Rizen]

Mythra's recovery is slightly above average I'd say. Her air mobility is fantastic and she has up and sideBs to mix it up. Pyra's recovery doesn't matter at all because she can quickly swap to Mythra.

When we get their frame data it will be here:

Pyra / Mythra — Ultimate Frame Data

Mobile-friendly Frame Data for Pyra / Mythra in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

ultimateframedata.com

I'll write an in depth post then but I don't need to see it to tell you Mythra's is excellent. She easily out buttons other swordies.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Pardon my hastiness

But I cannot believe this character came out the way they did. If they somehow don't end up top tier I'll be shocked. Mythra moreso, I think Pyra kinda sucks but she'll have her moments.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I managed to find this Excel article that shows the frame data and shield safety numbers of Pyra, courtesy of CopyCord (I think that was who was responsible?): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Jl3rlqlI3thrtLI5s41UGev-f6rMriWPhb7MPVY66wE/edit#gid=0

Some impressions:

• FTilt has an added shieldstun multiplier of 1.5x, making it much safer on block than you would expect given its kill power and range. It seems almost comparable to 's FTilt in terms of frame data. In fact, checking the numbers on most other sword characters, her tilt safety as a whole is practically better than any other swordfighter not named Marthcina.
• UAir is bizarrely much safer than any of her other landing aerials, being only -4 on block, and having much less landing lag than any of her other aerials (having only 8 frames of landing lag, while everything else is 14 frames or more).
• Fully charged Flame Nova is indeed +2 on block.

There doesn't seem to be much else that's worth mentioning. Smash attacks and dash attack feel pretty par for the course as high-risk high-reward kill options, but her tilt safety is not at all one would expect from someone who's often touted as a "Ganondorf with a sword".

 

[Minix0]

All I care about is some of Ridley's worst mu's got nerfed

DLC chars seem cool, but I doubt they'll be top tier. Pyra is noticeably worse than Mythra too.

Mythra is pretty much Roy with the bunny hood but uses his Melee pool noodle instead of his current sword.

Pyra is Ganon with a fire sword.

But maybe Mythra will end up being pretty good idk hard to say so early.

 

[Rran]

Not really. Little Mac can still guaranteed combo into KO Punch, KO Punch has way better and more convenient UI that doesn't demand a ton of game sense to keep track of and at least he has way more moves that aren't outright useless like Smash attacks and jab. Half of Wario's toolkit is already unusable and they did nothing to compensate losing something that requires a high skill level to make use of.

I kinda think you're overselling Mac's guaranteed combo and underselling Wario's Waft a bit. While everything you said about Mac's KOmbo Punch is true, there are additional factors which mollify its severity--the most obvious being that it can be extinguished from damage received. Couple this w/ the character's fairly straightforward gameplan (e.g. no projectiles, flaccid air game, "what's edgeguarding?" -Little Mac, 2014), and it becomes a bit easier to anticipate when and how a Mac player will choose to engage when that KO meter is full.

Now that's not to say it's a terrible move or anything: any attack that can turn the tide of battle w/ a single button press will make even the most seasoned Smasher just a little bit more cautious... but, I suppose what I'm ultimately (heh... hehheh... ha... HAHAHAHA) getting at is that, between the 2 moves, I am immeasurably more worried when Wario's colon reaches max capacity than Little Mac's KO Meter ;p


EDIT: and on the subject of my dear, heavenly Goddess of Light, Palutena... I'm fine w/ that. She's been my main since her E3 reveal, and I initially felt the character's slightly overtuned Ultimate design was Sakurai's way of apologizing to me for having stuck w/ her in Penultimate... but I dunno, it's become somewhat of a monkey's paw situation for me, because every time I go online w/ Palu, there's this niggling feeling in the back of my mind that my opponent kinda detests me for picking up a top tier w/ easy-bake combos and spammy projectiles (yes, it can be hell in my head sometimes lol)...

So yeah, I'm fine w/ Sakurai et al. doling out a few "slap on the wrist" nerfs to Palutena: they're not egregious enough to hamstring the character by any means, yet still perceptible so as to quell the nagging, neurotic unease o_0

 

[WatwatBreton]

So I usually take any day 1 twitter clips with 5 or 6 grains or salt coz they're usually like, unpractical combos on no DI donkey kongs.

However I gotta say that foresight looks very gross as a mechanic so far lmao, with a lot of room to grow and already a lot of interesting use cases (OOS punishes and recovery bamboozling being the 2 main ones I've seen so far).

Curious to see whether this will apply in practical matches, but if it does man I'm not looking forward to "which moves can you spotdodge and punish for free" being the main metagame question for fighting these characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So I usually take any day 1 twitter clips with 5 or 6 grains or salt coz they're usually like, unpractical combos on no DI donkey kongs.

However I gotta say that foresight looks very gross as a mechanic so far lmao, with a lot of room to grow and already a lot of interesting use cases (OOS punishes and recovery bamboozling being the 2 main ones I've seen so far).

Curious to see whether this will apply in practical matches, but if it does man I'm not looking forward to "which moves can you spotdodge and punish for free" being the main metagame question for fighting these characters.

I think the big thing about it is how it's given to a character who has good frame data whereas Bayo's general frame data is a hell of a lot worse by comparison. Oddly enough Mythra's 10 units heavier than Bayo last I checked meaning that a drawback of Bat Within and Foresight, taking damage, means less for her than Bayo too.

 

[Nobie]

Mythra's Photon Edge actually gives me Sonic or Steve minecart vibes, where throwing out an attack or even empty hopping against them gets you hit from 2/3 of the stage away. It's really powerful, though it has an obvious weakness (extremely easy to punish on block).

In general, both characters seem to be really good at catching vertical movement and escape options. Ledge jump gets eaten alive without much effort by Pyra.

My feeling right now is very, very good online, slightly worse (but still amazing) offline. The main thing is that it feels like Pyra and Mythra both have these smallish windows to punish them that shrink significantly on netplay, Cloud and Dedede style. The result is just someone who can get away with a lot online that they wouldn't otherwise.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I've found Photon Edge to still be very potent offline. It's a strong follow-up tool and a big part of why Mythra can pile on the damage. You just don't use it raw very often, as it's better after you land an aerial or tilt.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

 

[meleebrawler]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

At the end of the day, despite the transforming shenanigans they are pure swordfighters, and have all the strengths and weaknesses of such, even as they veer between the fast end and the slow, powerful end: great at outspacing short-ranged brawlers, struggles a bit with approaching strong zoners. I don't think any matchups will prove to be too extreme, the archetype is just very well-rounded.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

It's super early to say much conclusively. But they feel very similar to Lucina or Roy. Though they have the possibility of faring even better than them due to Mythra's excellent speed and Pyra's projectile

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Anyone have ideas how Pyra and Mythra fare in certain matchups?

I just fought an Olimar with them. It was online, and the player wasn't spectacular or anything (lots of horrible rolls and a general refusal to change tactics), but it gave me some ideas. I mainly used Pyra. Olimar's general mobility is below average, so I didn't have to be that concerned about getting whiff punished, which I find to be a large issue with Pyra due to her sluggish frame data. Pyra's nair is excellent for wiping out pikmin. It's a single hit move that covers her entire model, so all pikmin on her instantly die. Pyra's ftilt is so large that when spaced well, Olimar can't punish it directly, which allows me to provoke a punishable response from him. My general plan for approaching Olimar is a combination of jumping over the pikmin and blocking them as I inch forward into side b range. Pyra's side b will beat out every option Olimar has except jumping over it. When he does jump over it, there is enough distance between us for me to recognize the jump and position myself to catch the sword and then retaliate.

Olimar's air mobility is bad enough to make him almost always have to guess between me using side b on his landing or an early up air. Either move will restart the juggle. Similarly, at the ledge side b lasts so long and is so large that Olimar has to guess between me throwing it out or using neutral b to catch his early ledge roll.

Occasionally I would switch to Mythra and use some burst option as a way to prevent this Olimar from getting too comfortable.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

How exactly has the generic fall in place vulnerability change actually changed fighters?