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  • Did you ever struggle with Zelda's air mobility? I feel I never fully adjusted, until only recently. I feel it's part of the reason why perfect FF Dair is harder than it looks, because you really have to wait until she fully hits the ground. Her combos have become a lot easier thanks to that, too.
    I really like our Uair, and I wish I could use it more. I really suck at the aiming. It's easily one of the strongest Uairs in the game, 20% damage and beats pretty much everything (stuff like Link's Dair).
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    StoicPhantom
    Just got to lead with it, like you would a sniper in a shooter.
    >still not on Elite :D
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    okay I made it back to Elite after that
    and now I'm not (again)
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I honestly don't care anymore. There's a reason I don't aim for score, and that's precisely because it's stressful and makes you play worse.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Pretty sure I just locked him and he either didn't do anything afterwards, or you can actually do something straight afterwards (not sure if he could've attacked or not). Either way, if he could get up with an attack, he was fried either way. It's very punishable, and likely ended in a grab either way. And all of this is funny, because it was the "optimal" DI (DI away). Goes to say, she definitely has options, even if she can't Kick.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Of course it was a dumb percent, he was at 0. :D
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Funny thing is, I've never actually labbed this. I started by simply trying it out in real matches. I'd have to start paying more attention to all the variables if I actually want to lab it. It's not ridiculously hard to get, since Dair isn't the only way to get it. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm theorizing D-Throw > Nair suddenly becomes a lot more powerful, with all this in mind. D-Throw > Nair is far easier to land, too.
    Did really bad on Friday. I hate everything. :D
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    StoicPhantom
    Well, on the bright side, if you ever get over your mental block, you'll jump pretty far ahead in results, what with all of your tech skill and combo knowledge. It's not about not having it, so much as accessing it, it seems. And once you access it, you'll have all that practice with you.
    Likes: Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    That's probably the dilemma for a lot of newer players, with all these fancy combos for bad neutral and no real way of exploiting openings. I rely a lot on reads for these openings, and smart players will rarely give them to you.
    Since we apparently have similiar reaction time, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to incorporate some of that button pressing I talk about. Ideally, you'd do a lot of preemptive Jab1s, Dtilt, retreating Nairs and Dairs (catching rolls). Something like that. Jab has been very clearly buffed since Brawl & Smash 4, and it's kind of a mini wall you put up, lets you stun the opponent for a potential Dtilt and stuff like that. It's not necessarily mindless button pressing, and I feel Zelda players often let people in on their face because their too busy using slow zoning moves to have people get off of them.
    RAR Phantom has been coming in easier, but I still can't say I've fully gotten comfterble with using it so much in neutral. I feel I should get into a match one day and just spam it, that way I get used to doing it. I'm really not used to not approach, which is mostly a bad thing for us.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, that sounds like an ok plan. 90% of doing, is actually doing or however the saying goes. I tend to default to jumping over projectiles myself sometimes, and only RAR Phantom when the spam gets too much. It's all about ingraining it into your memory.
    holy **** my neutral sucks
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    It's not so much that it sucks as much as the fact IT NEVER EXISTED to begin with
    Lesley Black Velvet
    Lesley Black Velvet
    My neutral: Hold my calamansi juice.
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    StoicPhantom
    Neutral kinda sucks in this game period, to be honest. There's much less to outwit your opponent with and it can be very "pick an option and pray". You just gotta understand the current situation and then go for one without any hesitation and hope you're right. I find just studying the MUs to produce the most substantial results. I can even play and win with other characters I don't know well, as opposed to 4 where you kind of needed to know what you were doing with a character, even and especially with top tiers.
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    To think that out of all the technicals I'd end up practicing...perfecting Dair. Dair is -6 when you do it lowest to the ground, but apparently I still mess it up. It's a surprisingly good move in our kit. Combos at basically any percent and leads to ridiculous kills. Zelda's floatiness makes it weird to time, a bit (at least for me). It's hardest out of a Full Hop, for me. It's especially good out of a cross-up.

    I must've gotten that one ridiculous combo like 10 times, today (including 1-2 0-deaths out of it).
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    like yeah it's pretty slow, and especially when you're trying to delay for a super low fastfall. A lot of character's best bet is probably throwing out an attack, but I find a lot of people just automatically airdodge and I get another Dair > stuff. I'm getting insane conversions off of this single move, and I'm almost starting to believe it's our best move.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I'm going to PM you the stuff I did...I don't want all of this stuff out there, lol. I can't even trust the Zelda guys on Discord.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, I've been finding those airdodges annoying in Ultimate, but Dair does look like a good counter to them. Unless you're dealing with some quick and large disjoints of course.
    I'm practicing Instant Pivot Grab. I feel like this will be really useful for me (and basically any Zelda player), considering it ridiculously outclasses Dash grabbing.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    RAR Phantom is nowhere as hard as it used to be, and it's partly due to Banjo also constantly using RAR Down B.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Get down to practicing the things that make Zelda broken, like the Up B DI mixups (DI'ing into the opponent), platform extension combos (like Dthrow > Dair reset or Nair dragdown > Up B) and perfecting Down Throw > Kick past 50+. I still never really gotten down into fully experimenting with it, and it's too broken to leave behind. I've killed characters like Ganondorf and Wario at 40, and you just can't ignore that.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I've been so busy as of late that I haven't touched Smash in weeks, but hopefully that'll start dying down soon, at least until Christmas. Gonna need to do that as my friend will be coming down here and his Falcon is looking pretty good.
    I don't know why people forget Smash 4 Zelda was actually really pretty.
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    StoicPhantom
    It might be because Smash 4 wasn't pretty. I played it again for a few days some weeks ago and the aesthetics were a little dull. It kind of felt like a previous gen game, but bumped up to HD. Played 64 with my younger siblings earlier and despite the worse graphics, it felt like it had more personality than Smash 4 as do Ultimate and Melee.
    Likes: Oz o:
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    Oz o:
    Really? The game looked alright, to me. ): On the other hand, Brawl is the oddball among the games (in more ways than one). The graphics were more realistic, which was an interesting approach (Mario's jean overalls).
    S
    StoicPhantom
    It's not terrible, it just wasn't as memorable as the other games. I didn't play Brawl, but the other games all had a pretty distinct and memorable feel to them that Smash 4 didn't. It felt technically good but not artistically memorable I guess.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    jajajjaaj what I record everything and that never happened

    Didn't even know it could happen.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I think it's good that your friend is coming back for the weekend. See if you can learn a thing or two, other than just going through the motions (though, I suppose it's kind of a luxury for you at this point).
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Thinking about it, I have Ultimate digitally, due to getting it through the Smash Switch bundle. That might have something to do with it.

    Indeed and we played quite a lot this weekend. Despite not having any good people to play with, he's gotten better and is adapting quicker. He's also labbed the Zelda MU to the point that he can parry Phantom based on charge level lol. Forgot to save replays, but he pushed me harder than before and more than most I play online, even if he still can't take a game off me, more than like 1 out of 30 or so. If he manages to find a job and go to tournaments, I can see him being a huge threat. Or at least can afford internet.
    I tried the website thing where Marss tested his reaction time, and apparently I'm considerably slower than normal. Roughly around 270-300ms (whereas the average person is apparently 215ms?). The idea wasn't farfetched, but I honestly never felt that slow.
    Practice felt kind of iffy, as usual. At least I got the first real step to getting better, which is actually trying to do and discover new things. It's a little hard to fully shake off the feeling that you have to win, so that sometimes gets in the way. I wanted to practice a gnarly grenade trick with Banjo. I was fairly close on around two ocassions, so that's that. Only bad part is that they have to be off stage for me to set it up.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    When you're not afraid to let go, stuff like Parrying comes more naturally.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, but just remember that if you can learn it now, you can be free to just autopilot it in tournament and save your brainpower for outwitting your opponent. It's also helpful for seeing how a human reacts to certain plays and changes you make.
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    One of the most important things you've said so far, is about how the bad feelings won't matter in the long run. You're right. I could feel bad after a bad tournament or a couple of hideous For Glory matches, but they go away. I won't care about them in a day or two. Like you say, this is the difference between the best, and then the rest. It's how you're willing to put up with it.

    I could stay mediocre my whole life and stay where I am, complaining, feeling sorry about myself. I realise this is the kind of friends (and training partners) I attract, sadly. It's all a giant mental game.
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    StoicPhantom
    Of course that works if a. The opponent actually knows what they are doing, both with the game and the character they are playing and b. The connection isn't total garbage, which is rare these days. In the event that those requirements aren't fulfilled, I just try to take it as a test of patience and learn how to stay cool and collected when trying to hit an opponent that insists on running away and spamming airdodge and roll all game. I chased a Piranha Plant as Marth earlier and spent almost an entire minute trying to land the killing blow, while I was also at kill percent.

    I'll also use these kinds of matches to get used to using tech and other things that I need to incorporate into my muscle memory. You can't just practice them in training mode over and over again, you have to actively use them in actual matches too.
    Likes: Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Not to disagree with you entirely, but I rarely felt the matchup thing as being a boon of online. In theory, yeah, you have the chance to play a lot of matchups. But in practice, it rarely happens and it's usually the same characters. This is why I encourage you to look up people on Discord, since they're likely also more competent as well (not to mention proper rule settings).

    Have you been looking into that yet? If you're using online in the long run, this should be a thing.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I think it depends on the time of day. Late night and early morning are where the good connections and dedicated character mains seem to come out. You'll find more variety than Link and Samus there and they generally know what they are doing. Was that way in Smash 4 too.

    As for Discord, no I haven't yet and honestly it doesn't really appeal to me. May try Anther's Ladder once winter starts rolling around, I find that more appealing than trawling through Discord. It's difficult to play well in the summer, as summer exacerbates my health issues and causes my play to swing wildly in quality from day to day.

    Kind of going to take a bit of a break from Smash for a while though. I feel like I need one, though maybe not a hard break( I might play casually on occasion).
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    I reaaally like Banjo.
    Wigglerman
    Wigglerman
    I think he's decent but plays a bit like a discount Snake with him relying a lot on his grenades to set things up (Except far less static and more strict on timing). I played a solid Banjo making great use of nades and wonder wing. Smashes are also pretty quick on the recovery, which has caught me off guard (Even F Smash is pretty safe due to how far it reaches keeping you at bay, so even whiffing there is often time for a spot dodge or other option).

    He's deceptively quick too. Like, really quick. He can get from side to side of the stage to keep pressure even if he sends you the wrong way. His kill options can be limited but fresh F-air's tend to be the most common outside of punishing people who can't mash out of down throw fast enough and going for u-smash.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Wigglerman Wigglerman jajajaa dude no he's nothing like Snake. I think people basically say that because he has grenades, weighs the exact same and has a strong Utilt. Other than that, their grenades seem very different. Banjo's grenades seem to lead to more stuff, and they don't seem as oppressive as Snake's (not to mention, two of them).
    Wigglerman
    Wigglerman
    That is why I said he plays like a 'discount' Snake. Their game plan revolves heavily around grenade tossing to not only get residual damage but also confirm into a follow up. Most Banjo's I play have centralized their game plan around the grenades because, like Snake, it's integral. It's not unreasonable to compare them because they both have a similar style. Now, whether the grenade was supposed to be such an involved aspect of Banjo's game play remains to be seen as it feels intended for Snake but a bit odd for Banjo overall.
    Is your physiological problem really as bad as you say it is? I don't think the game can be that demanding where you'd need Frame 1 reactions. I was going to suggest trying to find another character to help mitigate that issue. You chose Zelda because it gives you the opportunity to keep people at bay, right?

    This game has tons of options. I don't think you can't get better because of it.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I’ve been playing again 90% Ike these last two weeks, so I would know about bull**** free aerials. Gets you massively used to having to react to their options after they hit.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I like Soul Calibur, too. I only have the Dreamcast version. Barely played any of the new ones, but I was going to buy SCVI
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Indeed, I'm not planning on quitting. I don't remember the context I mentioned that in, but it was mostly to say that there is likely going to be a potential cap somewhere down the road. It isn't just about purely reacting, the signals going from your brain to your nerves and the mind-body connection are also impaired, which is pretty fundamental to any sort of movement in your body. I'll still play, but there might be a point where I hit a wall.

    I think the Marss thing was stated by a top player or commentator, but I have no idea where it was and probably am not going to find it again without lots of searching. I did find some tweets pertaining to that though:

    https://twitter.com/marss_ne/status/1150974934690271232?lang=en

    https://twitter.com/marss_ne/status/1120523091367665664?lang=en

    "Guess Monster" sounds relatable, I feel like I'm guessing all the time too. According to that website 215 milliseconds is the average and Marss got 251. I got 301 lol.

    I haven't gotten very deep in competitive SCVI yet, but the game overall feels great just with the combo practice I've done. It kind of makes me realize how much I've been fighting with the input lag and buffer system of Ultimate. I still play Ultimate most of the time and I'm not comfortable enough with the inputs of the character I want to main (Talim) to play competitively yet, so it might be a while before I really get it. It's already better than V by virtue of having a soul, but I only got into the series with III and didn't play the others, so I don't know if you would like it. I think so far it's pretty solid and looks and feels gorgeous.
    Went all K.Rool this weekly. Half of it was a bet thing, the other genuine curiosity. He's a pretty cool character.
    Had hell of a set with one of our better players as Banjo (Escurridizo, you might've heard of him). I only saved Game 3, but I should've definitely saved the whole thing. Game 1 was a shameful 2 stock. He was basically the first Banjo I played.

    The result itself was pretty iffy, but I feel I actually played pretty solid.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I know the feeling, I always felt if I ever managed to get into the scene and start winning big, I'd at least try to win a notable tournament with Robin, because I'm annoyed at how underrated Robin is. Although it looks like Robin players are starting to do that anyways.

    From what I remember of your matches, it was always down to one or two interactions, so you might just be very even in skill.
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    Oz o:
    I usually hated on Robin, but I do think they can be pretty annoying. If it's one thing they have on Zelda, it's that broken Levin Sword. Kills ridiculously early and gives you free pokes. Honestly, it might not be a bad secondary for you.

    Yeah, I've always done well against him, just never actually won a set in this game. He's our 3rd best.
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    StoicPhantom
    Levin Sword is a big deal yeah. But the Thunder variants are not to be slept on either. You get everything from Elthunder doing like 10 and having rather powerful knockback for such a small and low cost projectile to arcthunder shield breaks and Thoron reads. I think those combined with Levin Sword gives Robin a very well rounded kit.

    I've contemplated comaining both characters before, but ran into a few issues:

    1. Both characters require substantial investment in order to do well with them. Not just being familiar with their wide array of tools, but all the MUs require significant understanding. It would be pretty difficult to juggle both of them at once. I could lean on my Smash 4 experience with Robin, but that leads into the next issues...

    2. Does Zelda need a secondary? It seems to me that she has a pretty even MU spread, to the point I have to wonder if it's worth it to take time to invest in another character. The only characters I can think of are Inkling, Greninja, Pikachu, Mega Man, and in theory, Villager and Isabelle. Of those, I think only Villager and Isabelle and maybe Pikachu would explicitly need a secondary. Which leads into the final issue...

    3. Robin's bad MUs and weaknesses overlap with Zelda's. Both have bad disadvantages, with Robin being vulnerable to rush down. So that kind of renders Robin useless as a secondary for Zelda. Although, I think Greninja and Villager and Isabelle might be relatively even for Robin, so it could come down to preference or which character I'm feeling at the moment. Maybe Inkling as well, so it could be worth looking into overall, but I don't know if it would net anything significant.
    Likes: Oz o:
    K.Rool is lit
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Krool’s Fair is actually one of his best tools, in my opinion. It does solid damage, somewhat safe on shield (fastfalled and spaced), it kills and it’s a very traditional “approach” tool. I use this a ton, as well as to catch jumps along with rising Nair OoS. His Dair is actually pretty iffy on shield, so you can likely just grab or Kick it OoS. It can be bothersome if he comes down with it because it goes through platforms and has belly armour on the front (maybe try Kick breaking it?).
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    You play with some people offline? That’s infinitely more helpful for progress. Took my Day 1 Banjo losing to literally anyone to massively improving in a single offline session.

    I’ll show you some Krool, Banjo or Zelda, if you want. My Banjo is definitely looking up.
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    StoicPhantom
    I used to until my friend moved :/ He's actually back in town for the weekend and we're about to play later today, so that will be something to look forward to. Unfortunately I know literally no one who even plays Smash let alone competitive Smash that lives around here. Once my friend gets internet at his place we'll have to play in the arenas often.

    You can show me if you want to. I'm actually better with the Banjo MU as Zelda than before and can beat him often, I'm just not consistent across all characters yet.
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    Zelda is part of my identity as a player. I started playing Ultimate mostly because of her...
    S
    StoicPhantom
    That's true too :3 Although even setting aside pure looks, the models and animations look way better in Ultimate overall. Zelda was so stiff in previous games. I watched one of Ven's old Smash 4 sets and LK had a really slow launch speed in comparison. Ultimate Zelda just has that oomph combined with the theatrics and the launch speed going really quick to make things look really cool.
    Likes: Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    No more waifu factor. :D
    S
    If you want to know some specifics regarding my tournament performance, I basically just feel really slow everytime I play there. It's not just the TVs, it's something else. I just feel a lot slower and sluggish. Zelda feels a lot faster when I play at home. I used to have the exact same problem with Corrin in Smash 4, but people always says the TVs don't have lag.

    Take the match I posted the other day. That's basically how I feel when I play at home. I feel like I can do anything. In tournament I just feel no better than a bad For Glory Zelda and it's no wonder nothing works.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Yeah, there's this Bowser that I almost lost two twice (with Joker, then Zelda). I kept falling for dumb smash attacks and I sucked at getting anything. The guy kept getting off the ledge with ledge attack, and it's not like I wasn't expecting it. Only beat him because he thought going off stage for a Fair was a good idea in spite of my charged Phantom stagespiking him so I could Dair him afterwards.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Game 2 his last stock literally lasted like 10 seconds. Should've started with that instead of overthinking it.
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    StoicPhantom
    Yeah, that sounds like a mindset thing. You're probably going to need to work on that before anything else, given you won't be able to apply any training if you just throw it out the window like that. Don't think, just do what you normally do at home. Only worry about changing things up, if what you are doing isn't actually working. Literally just go in and do everything you want to do and not worry about whether you can pull it off. Then review what went wrong where and whether you need to change something or polish what you have.
    Likes: Oz o:
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