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  • I really do enjoy Ultimate, it's just hard to really weigh the good and the bad properly. The good is really good for, like among the best I've experienced in Smash, but the bad is also really bad... and pretty damn common, especially in online. People make it seem like the game really is that bad, but online really exaggerates the bad parts.
    Going to do my best not to pull a victim card for now on. Ultimate online really pushed me there.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    If it were that simple. Not many people understand when you really like something with a ton of ****ty flaws. I really can't find that many people that relate to that, and they just think "well just quit", when it really isn't that simple.
    DrCoeloCephalo
    DrCoeloCephalo
    I played Pokemon for thousands of hours. Then I realized Pokemon ticked me off with everything wrong with it. So what did I do? I played Pokemon less and Yo-Kai Watch more because YKW is an infinitely better game where none of the flaws Pokemon has exist.

    I played Smash Ultimate for thousands of hours. Then I realized Ultimate ticked me off with everything wrong with it. So what did I do? I played Ultimate less and Project M more because PM is an infinitely better game where none of the flaws Ultimate has exist.

    Speaking fully from experience and relating perfectly to your situation to a tee, I can fairly say that it IS that simple.

    Play other games, seriously. That shouldn't be a hard thing to do.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Well, I didn't say I wouldn't play other games, I just meant it isn't that easy for me to quit because there are things I like about it. It's not just "i hate everything about it" and that's it.

    I have tried PM around 2013-2014, I do think it's a very well made mod.
    Analized my first match. Wrote a ****en book.
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    Goomboi
    Goomboi
    I'm going to kindly point out its analyzed, as it might save you from a mean comment down the line.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    is ok
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    Labbing a gnarly-ass setup with Zelda's DSmash. If I get it, it'll easily be one of my best clips. Not only that, but it lends to covering multiple options, thanks to it's low angle.
    I feel my reaction speed alone doesn't cut it sometimes, and that's probably where my lack of understanding kicks in. Mikey D. and I think some top players said it's not really all about your reaction, but your understanding of the game. If Marss reaction speed is similiar to mine, then it obviously isn't the entire problem. Like, I feel I have to guess way more than my opponent just to win neutral, and interactions feel confusing a lot of the time.

    I feel Ultimate isn't nearly as intuitive as other Smash games, but if other players are able to do it, then there must be something more to it.
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    S
    StoicPhantom
    I'm still trying to determine that myself. That might be true, but I wonder if there is a bare minimum? That Mikey guy says that you can't react to rolls because you lack experience, but reacting to rolls is something I really struggle to do. A large chunk of my stocks is roll behind -> KO option. It's like my brain just freezes every time they do it, so I just watch them do it and lose. It's not like I don't frequently play people who mash roll and even higher level players will abuse the dodge mechanics more when they are losing because dodge mechanics in this game are braindead.

    Like, I definitely see where they are coming from and I think this holds true for most things, but dealing with the burst options in Ultimate is harder than it feels like it should be. I'm kind of getting there, but I've been struggling with getting edged out constantly. It feels like I lose so many games by a fraction and they mostly center around dealing with opponents that just start mashing dodges or jumps at the end.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    This is coming from someone who plays offline regularly, too. And I don't know if it's an experience thing, because I've been punishing rolls and spotdodges since Brawl. It's more about fully understanding the flow of the match. I always look for things they "could" do, but that's when I feel even that's not enough, and there's something more to it.
    Played like ****. :D
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Definitely study that and incorporate it. Zelda especially requires this kind of play and if you master it then it really doesn't matter that she's laggy on whiff.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Her aerials are mostly safe on crossup. Dair is -6 but it doesn't have horizontal range, so you somewhat need the crossup. Nair is apparently -9 (not sure if it's Nair1 or the whole thing), and that most likely does require a crossup, and then there's things like reverse Utilt and spaced Dtilt, but I don't have anything set yet. Haven't looked into it.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    It is normally assumed the first hit so probably Nair 1. Tipper F-Tilt is -10 and also a good tool.
    Played with a friend on my usual TV and my timings were somehow hugely changed. Couldn't float cancel with Daisy and stuff like spacing and drifting was a lot harder. The only different factor was that he used his console, which I had no idea could even affect this. My only conclusion is that the internal bluetooth somehow works different and makes the signal weaker.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    This one doesn't, but it's always been that way no one ever complain (especially me). It's literally the same tv we always play, just something made the timings off like ****.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I see...
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    nope
    S
    StoicPhantom
    It's got a very little by little, day by day feel to it with how you are slowly learning how to do things like Phantom a little better than before.

    I also realize I said first Phantom you used when I meant second. The first was still good though.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I think the first one was better because it was a RAR Phantom, second seemed more like a SH retreating one.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    retreating tends to be the better option if you have space because some attacks can still go through RAR Phantom.
    my hand is ****ed
    S
    StoicPhantom
    My friend is like that too even though I'm clearly above him. It's fun, but sometimes he gets a little salty and that makes him play worse lol.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Gets to a point I don't even feel like playing anymore and he still wants to keep going, just to get a shot at winning. And if it does happen, it was either from being exhausted or you probably lowkey forfeit or don't care enough to go on.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    My friend is significantly improving when he does it though, so it is getting more difficult to just casually beat him with characters I don't main.
    I made myself believe
    There was no fight left in me
    But redemption doesn't fall down at your feet
    In the half light
    We raised a hand to my defeat
    And I watched the walls fall
    And I rebuilt them piece by piece
    welp, actually starting to learn Daisy like I said I was.
    Only took many months of on and off "kind of" trying, all it took was the courage to actually do it and use her in real matches instead of waiting until I perfected the ridiculous training mode combos. And, funny enough, I did start getting small strings at the very least. It's more about neutral I was concerned about, but I ended finding her kind of intuitive and just playing the usual.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I have the neutral, but not the combos in my case. I remember wanting to try and learn them at one point, but I never did.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    The combos are really hard and it's where they get the most of their character, as well as FC (Float Cancel) shenanigans with things like FC Nair and Bair. They're safe on shield and spammable killmoves.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Well, there's one set of characters that actually get rewarded for being technical, and it does feel really good.
    Picked up Joycons again out of curiosity, and they still feel very comfterble. Been using GC for like 4-5 months, and I still can't consistently (like 100%) RAR Bair. It's not like I miss all the time, but I still miss when it counts or once in a while (especially with Zelda). With Joycons, it's really damn natural, since the C stick is so close. I still find the sticks far more comfterble, since they're shorter and it lets me reach the inputs faster (like dash dancing).

    I'd honestly never drop Joycons if I didn't fear they might break at some point. I used my first pair for around a year until they started drifting hard, but now I cleaned under the stick and they stopped doing that.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    And 60 dollars.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    TBH it's worth it. It's legitimately one of the best I've ever had.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    Rather spend it on an extra pair of Joycons, honestly. They're the best controller I've experienced. I can do basically all the inputs I need, including and not limited to RAR Phantom, RAR Bair (a lot easier) and even Float Cancel Bairs (both sides) are a lot easier than having to do that weird thing with a shoulder button jump.

    My only concern with them was that they might eventually break or be compromised, but here I am, doing mean inputs with Zelda and Daisy even after two years having had used them. I recently "undrifted" them, and they work like a charm. Sticks are a little stiff, but it doesn't even affect my inputs.
    David Icke says humans mock the sheep, using the term "sheep" to refer to people who follow blindly. According to him, us humans outsheep the sheep because we are taught to keep each other in check, while the sheep need a shepherd or a sheep dog.

    This reminds of how insecurities are engraved into us by others, to the point we identify with them, and we even turn our own selves against us. We tell ourselves we're not enough, and that hardly ever motivates us for self improvement, it only serves to put us down.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I've always been someone that was self-conscious and afraid or insecure for any little thing, like I somehow said or did the wrong thing. I've changed that so much, to the point I can now tell myself I have nothing to be ashamed of or sorry about it.

    Slowly learning that. I won't be a slave to underlying programs in my head for the rest of my life.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I know someone who is the same way and it can really hold him back sometimes. He still has the courage to push forward on a lot of things, but he would fare better mentally if he wasn't so self-conscious about everything.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I improved myself a lot from how I used to be. I used to be a lot more awkward and ashamed of basically anything I said or did, and now I can confidently say I'm better at it than a lot of people. I wouldn't have never gotten to this point if I just accepted it and identified those ways as "myself, who I am", and I would've settled with being that way.
    I say we get into robotics AI and design a software to build a CPU that can actually help us train and improve and screw everything else. n___N
    I've been playing so well and consistently in the past weeks, but I already told you. It's just pretty crazy how long it's been going, and it hardly feels like a fluke by now.
    Check out my match with Byleth:
    I don't think Pyra and Mythra count as one of those "cute" and unique characters. :D
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    S
    StoicPhantom
    I guess that depends on how you want to define cute. They're not like Kirby cute or anything, but Pyra is approaching what some may refer to as cute in a different sense.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    yeh Kirby cute or Zelda cute for a human character but their sexualised design makes me hard to see them that way
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I can see your point there, but I don't think Pyra can really be called sexy. Regardless of her other attributes her face seems far too innocent to really not call her at least a little cute.
    Been really consistent this whole month, and I barely even touched wifi. Played before yesterday, and it was ass. Just feels depressing, playing this downgraded version where I’m constantly handicapped. I’ll just stick to offline, even if it’s like 1-2 times a week.

    Been playing super well with all my characters, and I finally feel real progress after months. Quarantine just ruined me and the passion I had got the game. Time to get it back...
    It's sad how society conditions us to feel negative and bad about everything. I think about my life, and how, when I want to achieve something, I feel down when I can't do it. Society puts emphasis on looking at others' success and make us feel bad about it, because we're not there and we don't achieve the same in the same or short amount of time they did- and that's another thing. This bull**** idea about how you "have" to achieve a certain goal within a certain time frame, otherwise you're not "good enough", or something. Like you're somehow a more superior human being deemed more worthy based on how fast you learn and achieve something.
    Ben Holt
    Ben Holt
    I feel this.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Amen to that. I've found that the best way to learn things is tailoring a method to your specific circumstances rather than whatever is "optimal". It may not always be the fastest, but it is the best way of ensuring that you actually learn.

    I can appreciate certain fields and industries being time dependent, but I've found in a lot of cases the constant demand for speed is a cover for bad planning and management. The way society is currently structured is based around what maybe one percent of the population can do and not realistically what most people can do. They conveniently hide this by declaring that people just aren't trying hard enough, but some people are just genetically gifted or cursed with defects. But barring extreme disabilities you will eventually get there, but society arbitrarily demands speed even where it isn't needed.

    I've learned to stop worrying about it and just focus on doing what I want to do. If other people want to participate in this shark tank of hyper-competition then good for them, but it won't end well for anyone not in the top one percent and I'd rather spend my time learning and doing the things I like instead. Normal society is not something I can participate in even if I want to, but it seems to me that for all the hustle and bustle most people end up in a mediocre retirement at the cost of foregoing their youth and doing nearly everything that would have made them happy.
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    Well, you suggested I look into other competitive fighting games, and I guess Smash Flash 2 looks pretty interesting to me. I really want to use Bandana Dee, and he's in the game. The mechanics also looks fairly interest, like some kind of mesh between Brawl and P:M? Or basically like a faster version of Brawl with actual combos, which is solid enough for me.

    I'm still struggling to setup the controller, though.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I won't let it get to me beyond that, because I'm enjoying the game so far, and it has nothing to do with those guys. Nobody also showed me how to do this, I discovered on it on my own, as usual. And this is only my 2nd day with the game.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Well, I haven't played the game yet so I can't say anything either way, but it is only the second day. I'm sure you will find something that will wow them eventually.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    My objective isn't to impress them, especially with that attitude. I do my thing, and hopefully stuff like that will follow.
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I also like that clip a decent, sucks the game robbed me of a lovely killcam... :D
    S
    StoicPhantom
    I was once building up material for a compilation video about all the wacky stuff you can do with Nayru, but I lost it all in a random update without my permission. I didn't know it would auto update when I started the game and then walked away to grab something :(
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    You really got to be aware of those things. Sucks you had to lose all of that.
    Amen, Amen, Amen
    You might find me by the water
    Waiting for the sovereign call
    Oh you see me like a stranger
    Well I've been waiting for the sun
    Singing Amen, Amen, Amen

    Breaking out the cage, tell them lock the chains
    Adrenaline and rage, I may never change
    Runnin' through my heart, dilute my pain
    Compressing all the stress, asthma on my chest
    Runnin' outta breath, they gon know my name
    Came up out the mud, brush the dirt off of me
    Going hard, hit them where it hurts, kill them softly
    When people tell me I'm too aggressive, not approaching just seems awkward and not natural to me. What if they never approach? That's why I always do it.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    It's a very common feeling, but it is also a psychological trap. Skilled players will exploit and bait you into unsafe approaches, especially if they are having trouble cracking your defense. When they back off and wait for you to approach that's when you must be very cautious. You either approach very slowly and make sure you aren't overextending and otherwise putting yourself at risk or you camp yourself and turn into a test of wills. Which one you go with really depends on the situation.

    If I'm confident in my offense against my opponent then I might cautiously approach and see if I can get him to come at me. It's actually much harder to properly corner trap in this game than it looks with the aerial safety, so more caution in not letting jump over you is required. A lot of times it's more optimal to just keep them boxed in and force them to keep trying to escape while looking for an opening to land a big punish.

    If I'm not really seeing an easy way to approach and especially if they keep running away, I'll camp myself and make them crack first. I'm not opposed to camping for an entire minute or two (and have) if I have the lead and they'll eventually have to come at me no matter what. Even if I don't have the lead sometimes I can exploit their impatience and bait them into coming to me anyways.

    Suppressing that awkwardness and anxiety is something you will probably always be struggling to do. In all honesty the only thing I've really seen that separates those who make top 8/16 and those who make top 32 is the former being slightly more patient in every situation. That's why it is important that you don't just go blindly into an approach and instead you need to assess the overall situation and weigh the risks in doing so.

    If you are frequently taking damage with each approach attempt then something isn't working and you need to back off and figure it out. There's no point in having a lead if you just give it up easily. I know you like being aggressive, but there is a difference between productive aggression and counterproductive aggression.
    is offline you like???
    jajajajaaj I lost N_n but I really like how I play I miss two key confirms Game 2 cost me game U_u
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    S
    StoicPhantom
    That was certainly close enough that a few tweaks could have decided it.

    2:07 in the second video was a good time to use Phantom. He had plenty of safe landing options and could see you coming from a mile away from where you were positioned. When they are in those positions where there is no safe approach for you then Phantom is usually a good idea.

    At the end of the second video where you lost your final stock is another good time. When you are backed into the corner against a character like Joker you want to use Phantom to give yourself some space. This was one of my biggest criticisms of ven vs MKLeo where he let Leo trap him into the corner and started doing Smash 4 Zelda shenanigans. That distance allows you to cover aerial and ground approaches and if he lets you fully charge it then it's pretty much a free walk back to center stage. Phantom is actually really good for characters like Joker so use it.

    You also are being a little too aggressive offstage. There's a sweetspot in every low recovery challenge and you're missing it by a little. I find it is generally better to catch Joker near the ledge on both recovery types rather than try to beat his recovery startup. Usually hang around the ledge for his normal recovery and let him burn his jumps, then Nayru will almost always catch him before he grabs the ledge. Arsene will need to be 2-framed generally, so plant a Dair at (not under it like at 0:34 in the second video) the ledge and try to catch him with the extra frames until you can sweetspot.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I hear you. But only those two scenarios for Phantom, or were you just pointing examples? Obviously, I'm not expecting (or hoping) you to point every time I need to use it.
    And I agree on that part where I dropped down with the Dair. Felt kind of unnecessary in terms of risk (when trying to 2 frame is way safer). I should definitely try to 2frame more with Dtilt and get good with the Nayru's version.
    S
    StoicPhantom
    Just pointing out examples. There's others, but I think those specific situations are where you will see the most value.
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    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    yeh **** those guys
    DrCoeloCephalo
    DrCoeloCephalo
    How about say "**** the game" that allows that in the first place?
    Oz o:
    Oz o:
    I mean, kind of? But I didn't really have this issue until I had to do only wifi... so you gotta wonder. It's still a huge question of whether or not the game itself is really that bad, or wifi exaggerates it to that extent. You can't forget you're playing against multiple layers, like the native input lag + big buffer windows on top of at least a couple of frames of lag.

    It's hard to say, otherwise I would've seen it at least a year into the game.
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