Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[|RK|]

He can't. I was thinking of the E3 Demo for whatever reason. I fixed it at some point last night after I realized lol.

I'm lost - he can't or he can?

I'm certain he can hit it like everyone else now.

 

[Cracke]

greninja took over Mario and is now at number nine in Orion Stats, highlight of the week.

 

[BitBitio]

Honestly the Pac vs Mac MU is not any where near unwinnable. Mac needs only a few good hits to blow Pac-Man offstage where a dsmash two frame kills absurdly early. He CAN attack the trampoline, and he can also just blow through it by side b over or a charged neutral b (iirc). Yes, his approach is a little annoying to do but just being able to make him airborne isn’t a particularly strong tool, especially because Mac falls so fast that you need to be practically on top of him to punish him, which sometimes doesn’t even work. Plus, Mac can roll through the tramp.

I think G&W has one really big weakness that a lot of people sleep on: he gets ledgetrapped hard. In his set against Tweek, he three-stocked Tweek’s PT. Tweek switched to Wario and won the rest of the set. And a LOT of the stocks he took were from ledgetrapping. GnW has bad ledge options: His roll, neutral getup, and getup attack are laggy, his ledge jump is average, and his drop down aerials are bad. He can’t use his bair because he’s facing forwards, his dair and up air miss the opponent entirely, his fair is slow and outprioritized, and his nair is predictable since it’s his only air he can use. Ledge drop up b is possible, but the opponent can still punish by baiting out a dair or fair or even nair and shielding, since GnW has to pick one. Tweek basically won by forcing GnW, a featherweight, to stay at ledge and kill with dash attack or ftilt.

GnW is one of ‘s worst MUs (IMO), but this is his most reliable way to take stocks: Hammer, jab, ftilt, and nair or up air at ledge.

This is why Simon and Richter have an even MU with GnW.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I'm lost - he can't or he can?

I'm certain he can hit it like everyone else now.

No he can't. He could in the E3 demo and IDK why I was thinking it then.

 

[|RK|]

No he can't. He could in the E3 demo and IDK why I was thinking it then.

https://youtu.be/NtH7YF_9fnU

2:21

He can 100% hit trampoline.

 

[Thinkaman]

Little Mac can 100% attack the Trampoline, destroying it in 3 d-tilts.

Trampoline normally lasts for 5 seconds, ~3.5 of which Pac-Man is free to do dumb Pac-Man stuff. Including hitlag, Little Mac can best-case kill it in 2.5 seconds, which still gives Pac-Man about a second of freedom. Pac-Man may be able to "punish" Mac if Mac lets his guard down, and Pac-Man can always up-b again as long as he has stage.

Honestly, the real threat here is that Little Mac can side-b over grounded trampoline just as effectively as most characters could jump and aerial. I only really see it being a problem on idk Kalos, but you are never ever ever playing Little Mac on Kalos so ?????

Pac-Man's ability to carry people horizontally is the real threat; I'm not sure that trampoline really plays into it at all.

 

[Megamang]

Also I'd imagine Pac's much much improved grab is a bigger problem for mac, grab went from a hard commit that didn't even work and you could reasonably assume you were gonna be fine, to a pretty big and surprisingly difficult to punish option for pac. This is great because it doesn't have to worry about losing to armor. Biggest thing IMO is that Pac is really never approaching Mac, unless pushing advantage, and so he doesn't have to worry about landing on armor etc.


Also, GaW's ledge options will weaken him over time. We have seen it in a lot of (smash) games, where something is a bit weird and people don't punish it much at first, especially vs a niche character/option. But as people learn it, it actually isn't objectively good so much as it is objectively different. GaW's ledge options are this way, I can't recall what it is exactly but I believe his standard ledge getup is faster and doesnt' have any visible tells really... So your option is just learn the timing, and don't try and see when you can punish so much as know. Well, once people start doing that, it really isn't a *better* option so much as it was a new player slayer at first and now is just risky.


Speaking of... am I the only one who does standard ledge getup, gets blown up, and then questions why I ever do standard ledge getup? I got by in smash 4 with 90%+ ledge jump since it was so superior, I've added more ledge attack (still sparingly) since then because they have gotten so much less vulnerable, but they still get you BTFO on occasion... But yea, its pretty rare that I ledge stand and feel I did the right thing, if anything im usually better off just ledge dropping into getting onto the stage somehow, at least there I can vary my timing/options.

 

[Krysco]

Not sure about the speed of G&W's ledge options but his neutral getup, getup attack and getup roll all have him open his mouth while on ledge before he does the option. Getup jump doesn't have this tell. Not always easy to see due to different camera and ledge angles.

 

[SwagGuy99]

https://youtu.be/NtH7YF_9fnU

2:21

He can 100% hit trampoline.

Never mind then. Yesterday was a long day and I guess I wasn't feeling confident in what I said LOL

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of... am I the only one who does standard ledge getup, gets blown up, and then questions why I ever do standard ledge getup? I got by in smash 4 with 90%+ ledge jump since it was so superior, I've added more ledge attack (still sparingly) since then because they have gotten so much less vulnerable, but they still get you BTFO on occasion... But yea, its pretty rare that I ledge stand and feel I did the right thing, if anything im usually better off just ledge dropping into getting onto the stage somehow, at least there I can vary my timing/options.

Anytime you're on the ledge you're in disadvantage so it's not like there's a great option. I try and watch what the opponent's doing. If they're hang back I'll do a standard getup or jump, if they're doing something like charging a smash I'll attack and if they're SHing or shielding I'll roll. On rare occasion if they're rushing in I'll ledge drop>Fair. I don't think one option gets exploited harder than the others but they all can be punished. Often after a standard getup I'll buffer a roll in because opponents like to rush you but this also gets punished if predicted.

 

[Planty]

Little Mac can 100% attack the Trampoline, destroying it in 3 d-tilts.

Trampoline normally lasts for 5 seconds, ~3.5 of which Pac-Man is free to do dumb Pac-Man stuff. Including hitlag, Little Mac can best-case kill it in 2.5 seconds, which still gives Pac-Man about a second of freedom. Pac-Man may be able to "punish" Mac if Mac lets his guard down, and Pac-Man can always up-b again as long as he has stage.

Honestly, the real threat here is that Little Mac can side-b over grounded trampoline just as effectively as most characters could jump and aerial. I only really see it being a problem on idk Kalos, but you are never ever ever playing Little Mac on Kalos so ?????

Pac-Man's ability to carry people horizontally is the real threat; I'm not sure that trampoline really plays into it at all.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you meant to say that Pac-Man will have 2.5 seconds of freedom while Mac is destroying the trampoline, not just 1.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Not sure about the speed of G&W's ledge options but his neutral getup, getup attack and getup roll all have him open his mouth while on ledge before he does the option. Getup jump doesn't have this tell. Not always easy to see due to different camera and ledge angles.

With how G&W’s ledge options aren’t the best as it is that’s pretty damaging. Seeing as nothing else changes with his animation when he starts a getup option aside his mouth suddenly opening it leaves less for the opponent to have to mentally process and therefore speeds up their reaction time.

I can’t recall if it was in this thread but Abadongo posted a video showing Joker doing something similar in that he will use two hands when performing two ledge options and only use one when performing the other two (don’t recall which ones). It seems like their are a lot of intricacies with how characters will begin their ledge getup options.

I believe Gimr made a video on the G&W thing but when I went to find it I found this. He says he will make a video on Monday about it. Launch cancelling maybe? (Kidding, hopefully).

https://mobile.twitter.com/VGBC_Gim...1?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

 

[Thinkaman]

Also I'd imagine Pac's much much improved grab is a bigger problem for mac, grab went from a hard commit that didn't even work and you could reasonably assume you were gonna be fine, to a pretty big and surprisingly difficult to punish option for pac. This is great because it doesn't have to worry about losing to armor.

Eh, I'm honestly not sure how much of a difference it makes--Pac-Man gets even better horizontal abuse on his normal nonsense than his grab, and is more than happy to harass Mac's shield with his normal gameplan. Like, think of the risk: If Pac-Man whiffs a grab, he is still probably getting slammed by someone as fast as Mac. Whereas his usual (more rewarding!) abuse gets off scot-free more often than not.

It's ironic that improving the worst grab against the character most vulnerable to throws has little difference in practice. Just goes to show the significance of the complex dynamics.

Biggest thing IMO is that Pac is really never approaching Mac, unless pushing advantage, and so he doesn't have to worry about landing on armor etc.

Yeah, and the degree to which he can do his camp from the air. Mac has unusually small windows to assert his Mac Things against Pac, even compared to other floaty zoners.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think you meant to say that Pac-Man will have 2.5 seconds of freedom while Mac is destroying the trampoline, not just 1.

I'm subtracting the up to 1.5s Pac-Man has to spend in freefall. He ordinarily only gets ~3.5s time to enjoy the trampoline.

By the time he has landed Mac has already probably hit it once, and characters like Ness or Pikachu could have already destroyed it entirely.

 

[Megamang]

Ok, that makes sense. The risk is still there on grab. Thanks for the insight.



About getting BTFO'd on ledge getup, that isnt' just my experience. It seems like when I watch top level matches, the player in advantage tries to time the standard get up a lot of the time. Some of the options will hit getup and jump (pika!).

And while if they do a greedy charge (perhaps to hit ledge drop fair or something) yea ledge attack is pretty ok, but honestly most of the time I see people charging at the ledge they know the spacing and you'll just barrrrely miss them and eat a charged smash.

some characters like pika can be deceptive too. If you see pika charging a bit further back than normal, know that he is hoping you think you're safe and ledge roll... don't do that.

 

[ARISTOS]

Here's my hot take on the matter

Super duper hot take: is bottom high. While I think that is the worst Link I still think very very highly of him. Toon Link seemed to have syndrome in that opinions are rapidly less positive because of an extreme lack of results, and this is what it was at first. While Toon Link has a very good campy game, and can overwhelm the opponent, was just better at it, with Flame Arrow, being overall faster, and able to keep up with fast, rushdown characters more solidly, and thus Toon Link went into a quick and rapid decline for a while. Until in Japan, when the character had a massive spike in usage. Japan has a much more friendly environment for more campy characters examples including Raito(), Tea(), and Brood() being just a few examples. While Toon Link may not have giant arrow strings, Up-Tilt does quite a bit of damage but more importantly, Toon Link seems to have a lot easier of a time killing. While Young Link may have a lot of confirms, landing them is tricky and Toon Link has more otions that can just kill the the opponent as well as some kill confirms with Up-B, F-Air, Back Throw, etc. Toon Link also has his weird new F-Smash which I personally think is a great sidegrade to his old F-Smash, being able to effectively cover several ledge options with much less commitment.

was at the beginning of the game considered extremely good and by far the best Link at now....kinda?
Young Link has an extremely good camping game, he is extremely fast while still having a useable disjoint and can also get in and do a lot of burst damage, he can effectively play a camping and boxing game and is able to switch between the two very quickly and effectively. So he's easy top high right? Well....he has a big problem killing, and other bigger disjoints stuff him out, along with his less than stellar disadvantage and his landing options being limited to fast fall N-Air and Down Air, which are good but not great in terms of when it's fairly easy to react to, and they aren't too hard to punish. T had some good results but seems to have switch mainly to Adult Link. I'd place him the lower half of High.

seems to be doing incredibly well as of late. He's slower than the other two and has a more difficult time camping, and has a worse disadvantage, but man does he have some trade offs for it. He's much stronger and hits like a truck, thanks to Bomb his recovery is actually better even without the Tether, not having a Tether is great for some follow-ups off of Grab, and we've made it clear that any hit counts. Nair is great, and while Young Link's Nair is great too, Link's bigger hitbox and overall size and the power of it make it even better on him. And of course the Bomb infinite, along with Link's bomb just being better overall. I'd place Link at the upper half high tier.

Reading this overall I think people mistake the gameplan of the Links.

is the only character who wants to hard camp you, and his kit is built for this - he wins small engagements, does good damage, and pushes you away to begin the process all over again. Toon Link is the best of the three of converting from far range, which makes sense as he's the one that wants to be the farthest away.

's camping is a means to an end: arrows are mainly harass tools with which to convert off of, they are not the whole game plan in and of itself. Young Link wants to use these tools to start his vertical combo game, keep that going for a bit, and be in a state in neutral where that pressure can be restarted quickly.

has the least camping tools, and doesn't actually want to camp anyone out - boomerang and bomb are only able to force movement from opponents, but ideally he wants to play at a midrange where boomerang can lead to sword confirms and where any burst options can be caught by his huge hitboxes. I'd say he wants to play about a half step further away from a swordie.

 

[TennisBall]

Not sure about the speed of G&W's ledge options but his neutral getup, getup attack and getup roll all have him open his mouth while on ledge before he does the option. Getup jump doesn't have this tell. Not always easy to see due to different camera and ledge angles.

In particular I believe this isn't possible to see on some places of PS2, which is one of the most played stages in the game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

OrionStats got updated and here are the notable occurrences (there are numerous characters that actually dropped in placements).
This is also most likely the final update to OrionStats season 2.

To the surprise of pretty much no one, Joker has once again taken over as the #1 character in the rankings.
As mentioned above by Cracke, Greninja has taken over to be #9 in the rankings thanks to Lea's performance at Kongo Saga.
Thanks to T's performance at Kongo Saga, the biggest peak of any of the three Links in Ultimate, Link took a large leap to #32 in the rankings, and is now only two placements below Young Link.
Curiously enough, Banjo leaped a notable amount in the rankings, to #38, which is one placement above . Not sure how that happened, especially considering Raito's nice performance at Kongo Saga, but ok.
Due to rise in the rankings, and took at notable drop in the rankings, now being #40 (tied with ) and #42, respectively.
Due to her results stagnating after VoiD's success with her as a co-main earlier this season, she dropped below to be #49.


#50-60 in the rankings took a shifting around.
While some stayed relatively where they were before (ex: at #50, at #51, at #54), other characters are starting to stagnate and fall down in the rankings (ex: dropped to #53, stayed/dropped to #58, dropped to #59).

Terry is so far progressing well, now rising to #62 in the rankings. If it weren't for the fact that the season is over, he would have potentially risen above Ryu (who is at #57), but that is most likely going to happen when season 3 starts anyways.
Ganondorf continues to be stagnate in the metagame, now dropping below to be #68.
Previously bottom 5 in the rankings, Incineroar has endures a small rise to #69. Nice.
Mii Swordfighter is also enduring a stagnate metagame in the current moment, dropping to #70, and is merely one placement above . Mii Sword is probably the character most affected by other mid/low tiered characters getting buffs overtime, as it is now really starting to fall behind.

 

[KirbySquad101]

In terms of what Krysco's talking about, this is the full tweet thread on it:

Another annoying caveat is that some camera angles prevent his mouth from being seen on ledge. This is rarely ever happens on most stages, but it's really frequent on PS2.

For example, his mouth is open in this image but you can't see it.

Make sure to ban PS2 against G&W! (5/5) pic.twitter.com/r94yZSBAFy

— Remzi (Abu Laith) (@Remzi_SSB) December 2, 2019

Basically:

- 's ledge get-up is standard like everyone else's (invincible on frames 1-33), but he doesn't start moving until frame 16. However, his mouth is open as soon as frame 1, so that's the visual cue you need to look for when timing your punish options; if you can do that, you can punish him just like you would any other character who does a standard get-up. This applies to his ledge attack and ledge roll as well, so again, time your call-outs based on that.

- This doesn't work on PS2 because his mouth is completely obscured due to silly camera angles.

- Things start getting complicated when he ledge jumps, however. Unlike his other ledge get-up options, there's NO visual cue for when he ledge jumps, so trying to call that one out in comparison is very tricky and runs the risk of eating a ledge-drop NAir to the face (which is what you see happen a lot in some sets). I actually think GnW players should be using that to their advantage in the future, especially if more and more players catch on to this method of reading GnW's ledge options.

OrionStats got updated and here are the notable occurrences (there are numerous characters that actually dropped in placements).
This is also most likely the final update to OrionStats season 2.

To the surprise of pretty much no one, Joker has once again taken over as the #1 character in the rankings.
As mentioned above by Cracke, Greninja has taken over to be #9 in the rankings thanks to Lea's performance at Kongo Saga.
Thanks to T's performance at Kongo Saga, the biggest peak of any of the three Links in Ultimate, Link took a large leap to #32 in the rankings, and is now only two placements below Young Link.
Curiously enough, Banjo leaped a notable amount in the rankings, to #38, which is one placement above . Not sure how that happened, especially considering Raito's nice performance at Kongo Saga, but ok.
Due to rise in the rankings, and took at notable drop in the rankings, now being #40 (tied with ) and #42, respectively.
Due to her results stagnating after VoiD's success with her as a co-main earlier this season, she dropped below to be #49.


#50-60 in the rankings took a shifting around.
While some stayed relatively where they were before (ex: at #50, at #51, at #54), other characters are starting to stagnate and fall down in the rankings (ex: dropped to #53, stayed/dropped to #58, dropped to #59).

Terry is so far progressing well, now rising to #62 in the rankings. If it weren't for the fact that the season is over, he would have potentially risen above Ryu (who is at #57), but that is most likely going to happen when season 3 starts anyways.
Ganondorf continues to be stagnate in the metagame, now dropping below to be #68.
Previously bottom 5 in the rankings, Incineroar has endures a small rise to #69. Nice.
Mii Swordfighter is also enduring a stagnate metagame in the current moment, dropping to #70, and is merely one placement above . Mii Sword is probably the character most affected by other mid/low tiered characters getting buffs overtime, as it is now really starting to fall behind.

's rise can be partially attributed to Trela's performance with the character at Kongo Saga; that 49th placement earned him an additional 5 points on the board.
What I'm confused about is how Mii Swordfighter is still higher than Mii Brawler; compared to and especially , I can't really think of any notable Mii Swordfighter mains beyond Pokecheese. Anyone can feel free to enlighten me on that end, tho lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

The Internet is going to be a crazy place for the next 24 hours. I'm declaring a state of emergency and sealing the doors; no one in or out.

To celebrate-slash-survive our isolation, I have prepared a game to pass the time. While this topic isn't going to become a full-time quiz-show, feel free to indulge in the provided frivolity until the storm passes.

What is the meaning of this list of characters?

 

[Arthur97]

Why is the internet imploding?

 

[TennisBall]

Why is the internet imploding?

Gameing awards maybe?

 

[Arthur97]

Gameing awards maybe?

I guess? Doesn't really seem implode worthy.

 

[Thinkaman]

It is exceedingly likely that the next Smash DLC will be announced at TGA, given that it is the primary media event opposite E3 and we are not expecting to have a Direct for awhile based on Nintendo's schedule. At the very least, quite a few people are convinced this is the case, and it passes Occam's razor as being the most natural/logical place/time for an announcement.

 

[Arthur97]

Eh, I'll just wait and see (I'll probably be disappointed even if their is a reveal). In the meantime, why would that affect this thread?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

https://youtu.be/NtH7YF_9fnU

2:21

He can 100% hit trampoline.

Watching that video, all I can think is "Man, that Pacman is smoother than butter".

Very entertaining and informative to watch.

 

[BitBitio]

The Internet is going to be a crazy place for the next 24 hours. I'm declaring a state of emergency and sealing the doors; no one in or out.

To celebrate-slash-survive our isolation, I have prepared a game to pass the time. While this topic isn't going to become a full-time quiz-show, feel free to indulge in the provided frivolity until the storm passes.

What is the meaning of this list of characters?

I don’t know what it means, but it’s missing . Also, all echoes are grouped with their parent character, so that means that it has something to do with in-game strategy.
Edit: Ooh, also Charizard, Falco, and Wolf are out of order.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don’t know what it means, but it’s missing . Also, all echoes are grouped with their parent character, so that means that it has something to do with in-game strategy.
Edit: Ooh, also Charizard, Falco, and Wolf are out of order.

 

[Rizen]

The Internet is going to be a crazy place for the next 24 hours. I'm declaring a state of emergency and sealing the doors; no one in or out.

To celebrate-slash-survive our isolation, I have prepared a game to pass the time. While this topic isn't going to become a full-time quiz-show, feel free to indulge in the provided frivolity until the storm passes.

What is the meaning of this list of characters?

It's probably not:
Orion Stats, that's easy to rule out.
A tier list due to widely accepted good and bad characters being together.
A weight chart or grouping by mobility stats.
Any kind of chronological chart.
Based on character usage stats.

It doesn't seem to be based on playstyles either that I can tell as we see drastically different styles like Snake and Puff together.

Hhmmm...

 

[KirbySquad101]

To play along, a few things I picked up...

all have the best ground movement in the game excluding and .

All the "big boys" are in their own category with the exclusion of and .

Uuuuuhhh....

 

[Big O]

The Internet is going to be a crazy place for the next 24 hours. I'm declaring a state of emergency and sealing the doors; no one in or out.

To celebrate-slash-survive our isolation, I have prepared a game to pass the time. While this topic isn't going to become a full-time quiz-show, feel free to indulge in the provided frivolity until the storm passes.

What is the meaning of this list of characters?

I'm going to guess that it's something silly like a taunt tier list.

 

[NairWizard]

My closest guess is reverse order of worst to best jabs in the game. ZSS and Little Mac have that f1 jab along with the ground mobility to use it in neutral; Fox and Sheik are at f2 and not far behind.

Ganon's jab is absolutely necessary in his kit but at f7 it's pretty slow, so the lower tiers would make sense too.

Some apparent outliers for this categorization would be Young Link (f6 and -10, it's not very good as far as I can tell), Rosalina, Game and Watch, and Charizard. Even bigger ones: Terry's jab is insane, and Inkling and Isabelle should be near the top for what their jobs actually lead to/do (unless this is strictly jab combo kill power? but then Pikachu/Pichu should be at the bottom).

That categorization would explain Samus/Dark Samus being absent from the list, though, as well as Bayonetta.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm going to guess that it's something silly like a taunt tier list.

Oh, c'mon, this ain't a meme show. This is actually quite interesting!

My closest guess is reverse order of worst to best jabs in the game. ZSS and Little Mac have that f1 jab along with the ground mobility to use it in neutral; Fox and Sheik are at f2 and not far behind.

Ganon's jab is absolutely necessary in his kit but at f7 it's pretty slow, so the lower tiers would make sense too.

Some apparent outliers for this categorization would be Young Link (f6 and -10, it's not very good as far as I can tell), Rosalina, Game and Watch, and Charizard. Even bigger ones: Terry's jab is insane, and Inkling and Isabelle should be near the top for what their jobs actually lead to/do (unless this is strictly jab combo kill power? but then Pikachu/Pichu should be at the bottom).

That categorization would explain Samus/Dark Samus being absent from the list, though, as well as Bayonetta.

An interesting coorelation. Like was pointed out with weight or running speed, it's actually a reasonably strong alignment but with some significant misplacements.

To be clear, there is no subjective element to this list.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Strongest Fsmash to weakest one perhaps? I saw Little Mac at the bottom and thought 'I'm certain he has a strong Fsmash' ; but then I remembered that he has a body hook that has low knockback. So far, the list checks in until reaching Jiggs, I'm just not certain how strong her fsmash is in relation others. But after her, Snake, Ike, Link, Kirby, etc. appear to fit into that criteria but I still have doubts when seeing others like Jr. down there.

When looking at the bottom, Sheik and Mac seem logical, although I wasn't sure if Fox's and ZSS's truly qualified as two of the weakest. Bayonetta is not there because of her Fsmash having low priority? I have no idea about the Samus Sisters though.

This is off the top of my head, I can more or less tell who has the strongest Fsmash but I'm not entirely sure about the precise placement.

 

[BitBitio]

No, it isn't fsmash. Incineroar's, MK's, Doc's, and Marth's are too low.
It might be categorizing up smashes. The heavies all have super strong, armored/disjointed/huge up smashes, then you have the not-safe ones, then the situationally-safe ones, then the almost-safe ones, then the broken super safe up smashes. IDK. And all the DLCs are in the same category.
Edit: Also, it doesn't even show Samus or Bayo's garbo up smashes.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

No, it isn't fsmash. Incineroar's, MK's, Doc's, and Marth's are too low.
It might be categorizing up smashes. The heavies all have super strong, armored/disjointed/huge up smashes, then you have the not-safe ones, then the situationally-safe ones, then the almost-safe ones, then the broken super safe up smashes. IDK.

I thought about Usmashes and Dsmashes too but the problem with that is that Mac has very strong Smashes yet he is at the bottom. If you take his Body Hook into account, Fsmashes make more sense. But I agree that Marth is too low when we take into account tipper Fsmash.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think I might be getting somewhere: I checked the spot dodge frame data values, and it's suspiciously close to the list presented.

Spotdodge frame data values:
Frames active 6-17 (cancellable on frame 20):
Frames active 3-18 (cancellable on frame 23):
Frames active 3-17 (cancellable on frame 21):
Frames active 3-17 (cancellable on frame 20):
Frames active 3-16 (cancellable on frame 19):
Frames active 3-14 (cancellable on frame 18):

's exclusion would also line up due to her whole "Bat Within" shtick.

What DOESN'T line up is the exclusion of and the fact that is only in the second lowest category.

 

[BitBitio]

...is it average damage output per hit, maybe per aerial? The heavies are at the top, obviously, but it would explain why several characters are at the bottom: ZSS, Fox, Sheik, and Little Mac (terrible aerials) all have below average damage per hit...
And, the fact that Bayo has bullet arts excludes her, while the Samuses have inconsistent damage because of multihit?

 

[Big O]

Oh, c'mon, this ain't a meme show. This is actually quite interesting!



An interesting coorelation. Like was pointed out with weight or running speed, it's actually a reasonably strong alignment but with some significant misplacements.

To be clear, there is no subjective element to this list.

I'm going to guess it's a roll invincibility tier list then. It would kind of explain samuses and Bayo being outliers, heavies occupying the top and the nimble speedsters occupying the bottom.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Why are we playing this pointless guessing game?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm going to guess it's a roll invincibility tier list then. It would kind of explain samuses and Bayo being outliers, heavies occupying the top and the nimble speedsters occupying the bottom.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Roll#Rolling_frames_in_Ultimate

Your guess seemed close, but looking at this it's not invincibility frames, but total frames in their rolls. Unless I missed something, here's the total frames of each groups front rolls.

First Group - 32 frame rolls. (Invincibility on frames 4-16)
Second Group - 30 frame rolls (Invincibility on frames 4-15)
Third Group - 29 frame rolls. (Invincibility on frames 4-15, same as the group above)
Fourth Group - 28 frame rolls. (Invincibility on frames 4-14)
Fifth group - 26 frame rolls. (Invincibility on frames 4-12)

Then the missing Dark Samus and Bayonetta have 31 frame rolls with different invincibility, while Samus has a frame 34 roll.