Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Thinkaman]

The twist is that all three of you are correct. ( KirbySquad101 , Big O , ZephyrZ )

Spotdodge, Forward Roll, Back Roll
Start Invul/Final Invul/Duration

[]*
3/18/28, 4/16/32, 5/17/37, Air Dodge Startup 4 [*3]

[]*
3/17/26, 4/15/30, 5/16/35, Air Dodge Startup 3 [*4]

[]*
3/17/25, 4/15/29, 5/16/34, Air Dodge Startup 3 [*2]


3/16/24, 4/14,28, 4/15/33, Air Dodge Startup 2


3/14/23, 4/12/26, 4/14/32, Air Dodge Startup 2


That's right; in Ultimate, unlike all past Smash games, there are only 5 "profiles" or "tiers" of evasion data for the entire cast. All characters strictly fall into these, except (duh) and whose unusual high-invincibility rolls break the mold. (Samus otherwise has an ordinary Link-tier spotdodge)

I noted that these categories also kinda include air dodge startup as well--there are only 8 exceptions, off by 1.

Air Dodge duration we know to be based strictly off fall speed, completely overwriting all old values. Air Dodge invulnerability period is a sadder, less interesting story: They are based on the Smash 4 values, which were all (except certain DLC) at the time fixed to be duration-5. (And that duration value was fixed to be spot-dodge+6 across the board!) En route to Ultimate, these existing values were all given (startup-1) additional i-frames, such that higher startup offered matching additional invulnerability. This was done after Ultimate's air dodge startup changes to all characters but Duck Hunt; and at some point, Pit/Dark Pit were given a random additional i-frame. Otherwise, there is no method to the madness for this particular value--Ultimate's Air Dodge invuln is ultimately based on whatever the character's Smash 4 Spot Dodge timing was, with new characters copying both invuln and startup of the most similar existing character and all DLC receiving the same values.)

I am sorry to report that ledge options (including rolls) remain complete anarchy. There is no pattern, no categories, nothing to help you remember or practice outside of the couple values that we know were made consistent in Ultimate. (All ledge rolls last 45 frames, all ledge attacks last 55 frames.)



So yeah. While this doesn't take into account roll distance, realizing that all the dodge timings in the game fit into 5 identical categories (minus 3 obvious exceptions) is a helpful lens. In a game with this many characters, anything that helps us transfer adaptation and understand characters wherever they are grouped is a very important.

 

[Anomika]

It's definitely interesting, as you mentioned, that all current DLC fighters share same dodge values, but I also wonder if that's going to remain a "rule of thumb" for next DLC fighters or not.

 

[Rizen]

I just want to piggyback off of this (I think I am?) and say watch Shogun vs Maister. Shogun played the MU correctly (and the most optimal I have seen), and while he still lost, Maister had to make key adjustments that were necessary to win to deal with Snake's great normals (such as mixing up D-air timing, how to hit a landing Shogun, and only committing with the right spacing).

The 4 games (not counting the time Shogun went Fox) themselves were slow, usually a tug-of-war of who would make the first action. Whoever won neutral had the immense advantage, and, like you said, G&W doesn't really have stellar approach options. Shogun already had an idea of what Maister would do, and his reward was sealing stocks and playing passive and patient. He repeatedly used the same options (D-Tilt, Dash Attack, Up-Tilt, and the like), and they worked. It was only on game 5 (as game 3 was pretty close) that Maister figured out what to do, and once he had a noticeable lead, he did the same that Shogun did to him: capitalize and score huge amounts of percent.

Maister vs Tweek's Wario is also another key set to watch. Despite Maister raking up so much damage, G&W struggles to KO at a certain percent range thanks to his moves not really linking well (beyond Up-Air and D-Smash), and Tweek was able to win games at death percents. Even when Tweek was behind in percent, he still pulled ahead thanks to Wario's KO power and waiting things out. He may had to play cat and mouse or very slow against with Maister, but it still worked out. Tweek full well knew mistakes at those percents would be costly, but playing it slow meant giving him ample room to punish. G&W isn't exactly the greatest at holding a lead in these situations (same stock count, percent lead at highish percents) as his runaway options are also limited (Chef, F-air, D-air, Fire, and B-air can only do so much), so he either makes a good read (say a Tilt or Smash attack) or does chip damage for something to give.

I just got around to watching this. It shows how great Snake's boxing game is that even without grenades, a key part of his stage control, he can still keep up with G&W. I know Snake's dropped off a bit lately but still consider him a candidate for best character in the game. He has the weight to trade, the best stage control in the game, nikita and all this on top of a great boxing game.

 

[Arthur97]

And this is somehow better than anything the game awards could bring?

It's definitely interesting, as you mentioned, that all current DLC fighters share same dodge values, but I also wonder if that's going to remain a "rule of thumb" for next DLC fighters or not.

Eh, I'm not sure it's a rule so much as it is cutting corners.

 

[Rizen]

Let's talk about in the Kongo Saga. This character's low key crazy. Light got 4th, taking out players like Zackray, Gluttony and Lea.

Fox is easily a top tier. He's shown to consistently kill Wario at <130%, pre-hit. Usmash, which has confirms, is one of the best kill moves in the game. It's f8 and paired with Fox's excellent rush down a devastating move. But Fox also has amazing vortexes with low cool down on attacks and a fast FF speed that lets him get 3 or more Uairs in a row. He can juggle with Utilts at low %s and wrack up 50% easily. His frame data is amazing with things like a f2 jab that lets him outbutton almost anyone on the ground. And although his recovery is somewhat exploitable, it's very long ranged and dangerous to challenge. He also has an invulnerable f2-5 (edit response: that's what it says on the frame data), hits on f3 reflector to chain break.
Fox's weaknesses are poor range on attacks and he's very light but that's offset by his damage and kill games.

(Next up is ...)

 

[Anomika]

Small correction on the Reflector. The intangibility is on frames 2-3, but it's still a very quick option for escaping aerials pressure along with his frame 2 air dodge (and it's the fastest in the game in terms of the duration). Combined with his fall and fast fall speed, it doesn't give him too much trouble landing against the opponents who don't have long range or very fast mobility. Also in terms of his combos, a good amount of them are frame traps so he needs to be careful with the opponents who have a fast escape option.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Fox is easily a top tier. He's shown to consistently kill Wario at <130%, pre-hit. Usmash, which has confirms, is one of the best kill moves in the game. It's f8 and paired with Fox's excellent rush down a devastating move. But Fox also has amazing vortexes with low cool down on attacks and a fast FF speed that lets him get 3 or more Uairs in a row. He can juggle with Utilts at low %s and wrack up 50% easily. His frame data is amazing with things like a f2 jab that lets him outbutton almost anyone on the ground. And although his recovery is somewhat exploitable, it's very long ranged and dangerous to challenge. He also has an invulnerable f2-5 (edit response: that's what it says on the frame data), hits on f3 reflector to chain break.
Fox's weaknesses are poor range on attacks and he's very light but that's offset by his damage and kill games.

(Next up is ...)

Has their ever been a question as to if is Top Tier? Sure some of his moves were toned down compared to but like you mention, his frame data is among the best in the game, his rushdown playstyle works against almost any character, he can rack up damage off of combos and juggles fairly easily, he is very good at combating campy playstyles, and his run speed is the 5th fastest (he also has a decent initial dash).

There are very few meta relevant matchups that he loses by a more than a small amount ( maybe ) and none of those characters are actually unbeatable, they are just challenging for Fox when he is in disadvantage (except because, in the words of Izaw in his Art of Luigi video, he's a cheater).

However, these losing matchups pale in comparison to all of the meta relevant matchups that Fox does win, as he has the tools to do very well against and almost completely shuts down almost every character commonly considered to be Low or Bottom Tier as well ().

 

[Arthur97]

How is Simon meta relevant?

 

[Thinkaman]

3 DOM did very well at 2GG Kongo Saga with Richter, and Shuton uses him for certain matchups. I believe he used him once at Konga Saga off-stream (besides the side event where he went mostly Richter), and also used Richter in his #1 placing run on Monday.

As a Belmont naysayer, I have to admit that this character just won't quite go away.

Edit: Yeah, on Monday, Shuton used (won with) Richter against Locus.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think as a whole, I find that most already establish top tiers will be here to stay, unless big nerf patches change that (like with and kind of ). They may undergo some rocky terrain (I know Light was in a bit of a rut with for a while during the start of season 2, and there was that time where everyone in Japan mained for two weeks), but they usually bounce back eventually. It's also part of why I feel like will bounce back eventually, despite representation of the character reaching an all-time low currently. If anything, I feel like more and more contenders for top tier will increase in the future as their meta develops, particularly characters that are already doing very well like (though I personally think he's a top tier already, I know not many share that opinion), and .

I definitely see that happening with if Shogun keeps up what he accomplished at Kongo Saga. 17th doesn't sound like a whole lot, but the sets he lost in - against Samsora and Maister - those were both sets he took them to game 5, and he did NOT make Samsora's or Maister's victories easy. To give you an idea of what he CAN do when he has access to his grenades:

It's really hard to describe it, but his movement is just so seamless: B reverse Grenades are a given, but the way he uses it deceptively hide his C4 drops, waveland onto platforms for some grenade dropping, and reset himself back to the ground to keep himself at a distance from the opponent is honestly a sight to behold. That's not even going into how he sometimes goes into full-on aggression with Snake's absurd tilts in the blink of a hat, or how he keeps himself off the opponent with a well spaced DAir, or even how he's willing to throw out a Nikita Missile in neutral just because he has a contingency plan to back it up in the form of a grenade place right next to him. It's very difficult to explain it without watching the video, but his movement is so slippery, which is not an easy feat given that Snake isn't exactly the most mobile character there is.

I feel like a part of why MVD hasn't been doing so well in Season 2 is that many players have caught onto his camping strategies and movement, and he hasn't changed much about it. I can't really comment much on Salem's Snake, though, it seems like he's been allocating a lot of his time and efforts towards , at least for now anyway.

I feel like if Snake wants to reach that same level of dominance he had back in Season 1, his playerbase NEEDS to start incorporating some of these techniques. Because to me, Shogun is paving the way for Snake's meta, and it's up to the rest of the Snake players to follow suite.

On the subject of the Belmonts, for what it's worth, but Nitro and T3 DOM both have a LOT of wins against Elegant at locals.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Surprisingly no DLC announcement at the Game Awards.

Kind of a confusing choice from a marketing standpoint, but it means that we are going to wait a little longer for the DLC #5 announcement.

 

[Arthur97]

And this, is why you be careful when saying something is sure or almost sure.

 

[BitBitio]

Though, Smash did win best fighting game.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I'm glad Smash Ultimate won best fighting game; it's definitely deserving of the title, and it helps put the "Smash isn't a fighting game" memes to rest lol.


In other words, while we're on the trend about learning important data values/information for match-ups and while we wait for the Fall PGR to come to a close, I was thinking it would be a good time to start talking about what counterplay (or to put it bluntly, "anti-tech") we can find against prevalent characters in the meta currently. The extensive talk about and anti-tech earlier, along with this recent Tweet I found, kinda got me thinking about the subject. This time, the knowledge check concerns , particularly his recovery:

Getting killed by Chrom Up-B at 0% is vexing.

What if I told you that you can ALWAYS intercept him?

He swings his sword BUT there isn't another hitbox until frame 40 when he starts spinning.

after 20 frames of reacting you can thrash it with moves that hit on frame 18 or less! pic.twitter.com/rJPRXOJgp2

— GimR (@VGBC_GimR) December 12, 2019

While this may seem irrelevant, there has been a few instances where Chrom would literally steal the opposing side's stock due to a careless edge-guard, particularly in YMCA's set against Rivers:

Challenging Chrom Up B pic.twitter.com/Ozv5TyEfpK

— Tylor (@theSirToasty) December 7, 2019

Or we could also just talk about who's going to be Top 20 in this season's PGR.

 

[Guynamednelson]

and it helps put the "Smash isn't a fighting game" memes to rest lol.

Bold to assume people will stop doing that.

 

[TennisBall]

Let's talk about in the Kongo Saga. This character's low key crazy. Light got 4th, taking out players like Zackray, Gluttony and Lea.

Fox is easily a top tier. He's shown to consistently kill Wario at <130%, pre-hit. Usmash, which has confirms, is one of the best kill moves in the game. It's f8 and paired with Fox's excellent rush down a devastating move. But Fox also has amazing vortexes with low cool down on attacks and a fast FF speed that lets him get 3 or more Uairs in a row. He can juggle with Utilts at low %s and wrack up 50% easily. His frame data is amazing with things like a f2 jab that lets him outbutton almost anyone on the ground. And although his recovery is somewhat exploitable, it's very long ranged and dangerous to challenge. He also has an invulnerable f2-5, hits on f3 reflector to chain break.
Fox's weaknesses are poor range on attacks and he's very light but that's offset by his damage and kill games.

Very very late to this but I just wanted to ask what the general opinion of was around here. I'm interested personally as I have a very high opinion of the character.

 

[Rizen]

I'm glad Smash Ultimate won best fighting game; it's definitely deserving of the title, and it helps put the "Smash isn't a fighting game" memes to rest lol.


In other words, while we're on the trend about learning important data values/information for match-ups and while we wait for the Fall PGR to come to a close, I was thinking it would be a good time to start talking about what counterplay (or to put it bluntly, "anti-tech") we can find against prevalent characters in the meta currently. The extensive talk about and anti-tech earlier, along with this recent Tweet I found, kinda got me thinking about the subject. This time, the knowledge check concerns , particularly his recovery:

Getting killed by Chrom Up-B at 0% is vexing.

What if I told you that you can ALWAYS intercept him?

He swings his sword BUT there isn't another hitbox until frame 40 when he starts spinning.

after 20 frames of reacting you can thrash it with moves that hit on frame 18 or less! pic.twitter.com/rJPRXOJgp2

— GimR (@VGBC_GimR) December 12, 2019

While this may seem irrelevant, there has been a few instances where Chrom would literally steal the opposing side's stock due to a careless edge-guard, particularly in YMCA's set against Rivers:

Challenging Chrom Up B pic.twitter.com/Ozv5TyEfpK

— Tylor (@theSirToasty) December 7, 2019

Or we could also just talk about who's going to be Top 20 in this season's PGR.

I saw a Wolf player with good anti-Chrom tech but can't remember who it was. They would jump up and FF Nair on top of Chrom's upB to stuff it out.

Very very late to this but I just wanted to ask what the general opinion of was around here. I'm interested personally as I have a very high opinion of the character.

I underestimated initially but he's proven to be top tier. He is a well rounded character while still being a strong rush down with good vortexes. Mario can ladder combo for potential early kills.

 

[DunnoBro]

Very very late to this but I just wanted to ask what the general opinion of was around here. I'm interested personally as I have a very high opinion of the character.

After labbing, testing, and re-confirming a killing ledge trap with other marios in my region, I'm fairly confident he's a top tier.

Essentially, once the opponent is at usmash kill percent, mario has a 25%~ chance to kill (in ideal conditions. Forcing him to shield, or throwing off his timing can disrupt it well). He needs to be just far enough from the ledge that he can still dash into shield. Dash pivot usmash for jump, dash shield > usmash for standard/get-up, trump > bair for hang, and dash in > wavedash back for roll and ledge drop. (Wavedash back lets him keep facing forward so he can fludd ledge drops to force regrabs. Also lets him avoid most rising options that would stuff the typical dash in > dash back)

Considering FLUDD is a non-committal way to force opponents to the ledge, especially at kill percent, it'll likely do a LOT for his consistency, and potency.

With usmash being 3 frames slower out of dash/shield, ledge jump airdodge existing, fludd pushing less hard + airdodging letting them avoid it, and characters able to ledge drop quicker, this didn't really work in 4. People could, and did just ledge jump airdodge constantly. In fact, if you went for it and they ledge jump airdodged, quick bairs could punish you pretty hard.

In ultimate, you can just bthrow/usmash again. I also don't believe it was possible to oos usmash standard on reaction. The general consensus was you had to be charging preemptively, thus didn't cover get-up attack. So it really is just a complete killing trap that wasn't there in smash 4.

It's actually frustrating how much easier it is for me to kill than just damage rack at ledge. I'm still working on that, but this killing trap definitely works and is pretty crazy on a character with something like FLUDD.

 

[BitBitio]

I feel like is the king of high tier, but not quite top tier. His MUs are worse than a top tier on average because his range allows certain characters to simply win more often in neutral, and his punish game can fail him at times if playing against a character with a solid combo breaker. I feel the same way with where they aren’t quite good enough but still excellent.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm glad Smash Ultimate won best fighting game; it's definitely deserving of the title, and it helps put the "Smash isn't a fighting game" memes to rest lol./QUOTE]
Does anyone take the game awards seriously?

 

[TennisBall]

I'll admit, I only watched the Gaming Awards waiting for Smash DLC.
At least it was cool.
Moving on from that, I think that Mario is a low top tier, but a top tier nonetheless, Mario seems to actually have been more buffed from Sm4sh than nerfed. He still struggles with swords and oppressing disjoints, which to be fair top tiers seem to have a lot of, but he does extremely well and has strengths you cannot ignore, ladder comboes, extremely privileged framedata, disjoints and invincibility galore on lots of attacks, no trouble killing and very good ledgetrapping.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I'll admit, I only watched the Gaming Awards waiting for Smash DLC.
At least it was cool.
Moving on from that, I think that Mario is a low top tier, but a top tier nonetheless, Mario seems to actually have been more buffed from Sm4sh than nerfed. He still struggles with swords and oppressing disjoints, which to be fair top tiers seem to have a lot of, but he does extremely well and has strengths you cannot ignore, ladder comboes, extremely privileged framedata, disjoints and invincibility galore on lots of attacks, no trouble killing and very good ledgetrapping.

Finally. Someone who shares my opinion on . I agree with everything said here although I will add that his Top Tier MU spread might be even better than in Smash 4, IMO with the only ones that might be losing by 40:60 or worse being and maybe (compared to Smash 4 where he lost to almost everyone but Sheik, Diddy, and Fox). And while he does lose those matchups, he does win against a few top/high high tiers like and does OK against all three of the main contenders for best character in the game .

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

The funny thing is, when I first picked up I had no idea that Maister was making a name for himself with this guy, then I saw everyone on Twitter complaining about how G&W is supposedly the worst so of course I had to go even harder into using him now!

Very very late to this but I just wanted to ask what the general opinion of was around here. I'm interested personally as I have a very high opinion of the character.

served me well in Smash 4, but something about him in Ultimate isn't clicking with me. But I do agree with the others, he's a low top tier with a ton going for him, especially those ladder combos

Also minor spoiler for the most recent Steven Universe but I couldn't resist:

Spoiler

So... you touched Game & Watch's shield. Let's talk about your first mistake... pic.twitter.com/vTKY3lexY4

— Monkey D. Lenny | Vtuber (@MonkeyDLenny) December 15, 2019

 

[TennisBall]

In other news, Keitaro dropped his 6.10 tier list. For those who don't know, he's a commentator/competitive player who is most well known for frequently appearing on Nario's streams. While there does not appear to be an image, I'll list his tier list here. It's also ordered.

S Tier:,,,,,,,,,

A Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

B Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

C Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

D Tier:,,,,,,

As you can tell, this is different from the average tier list. Personally I like it because I always enjoy looking from different viewpoints.
Even if Falcon being better than Bowser and Puff being second worst is hot garbage.

 

[Rizen]

In other news, Keitaro dropped his 6.10 tier list. For those who don't know, he's a commentator/competitive player who is most well known for frequently appearing on Nario's streams. While there does not appear to be an image, I'll list his tier list here. It's also ordered.

S Tier:,,,,,,,,,

A Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

B Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

C Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

D Tier:,,,,,,

As you can tell, this is different from the average tier list. Personally I like it because I always enjoy looking from different viewpoints.
Even if Falcon being better than Bowser and Puff being second worst is hot garbage.

I agree with maybe 70% of it which is all you can hope for with a tier list. Ultimate's so fluid of a game that the only "good" tier list ends up being one's own. It's hard to place characters when everything's so subjective and popularity comes into play. To add my specific 2 cents: YL's a bit too high but it's refreshing to see him overrated after seeing all those depressing Japanese tier lists. Pop Bowser and Ness up a tier; when will these characters be taken seriously? The rest is a bunch of nitpicks.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not sure about Roy being so far ahead of Chrom.

 

[Minordeth]

Ah, another day, another tier list.

Given his results in Japan, and his actual capabilities versus the rest of the cast, Toon Link is bizarrely low.

Speaking of bizarrely low, what in the hell is Samus doing down there? This is a character with good MUs against Snake, Pika, Peach, has an adaptable gameplan and neutral, and a top 5 move in Charge Shot. Strong placements from players like Quik and Joker (and YB, whenever he shows up), too.

Terry getting placed this early is wild.

Other than that, it looks like an Ult tier list.

 

[PK Gaming]

I agree with maybe 70% of it which is all you can hope for with a tier list. Ultimate's so fluid of a game that the only "good" tier list ends up being one's own. It's hard to place characters when everything's so subjective and popularity comes into play. To add my specific 2 cents: YL's a bit too high but it's refreshing to see him overrated after seeing all those depressing Japanese tier lists. Pop Bowser and Ness up a tier; when will these characters be taken seriously? The rest is a bunch of nitpicks.

Ness has done absolutely nothing to warrant being in A-tier

The character's performance at high level play is mediocre at best

 

[TennisBall]

Ness has done absolutely nothing to warrant being in A-tier

The character's performance at high level play is mediocre at best

Ok Ness isn't A Tier but Mediocre is a bit harsh. The character still is in the Top 20 for Oveall Results on Orionstats and Solo Ness has wins on Cosmos, voiD, ESAM, and a lot of other top players. Ness has potential, he's just not quite that high.
There's no logical reason why Bowser is that low

 

[Ziodyne 21]

R.O.B is also a definite A-Tier

R.O.B has got top 8 placings at quite a few big majors as well as Zackray winning TBH9 using the bot for much of his run

 

[Rizen]

Ness has done absolutely nothing to warrant being in A-tier

The character's performance at high level play is mediocre at best

Ok Ness isn't A Tier but Mediocre is a bit harsh. The character still is in the Top 20 for Oveall Results on Orionstats and Solo Ness has wins on Cosmos, voiD, ESAM, and a lot of other top players. Ness has potential, he just quite that high.
There's no logical reason why Bowser is that low

^This. He's done a more than a lot of those A tiers like YL. And while we're at it, why do and get free passes to "best in the game" when Ness who's preformed better than both of them, 17th on Orion Stats, doesn't even get to be A tier? (I'm getting Deva Vu to discussions).

 

[Thinkaman]

Zackray just lost a game to Kome, and countered to Ridley. Won the first game, lost the second--but it was still closer than his ROB. He was able to force Shulk to respect his range, and sneak in a lethal dash attack or side-b when he respected him too much.

 

[Lacrimosa]

In other news, Keitaro dropped his 6.10 tier list. For those who don't know, he's a commentator/competitive player who is most well known for frequently appearing on Nario's streams. While there does not appear to be an image, I'll list his tier list here. It's also ordered.

S Tier:,,,,,,,,,

A Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

B Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

C Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

D Tier:,,,,,,

As you can tell, this is different from the average tier list. Personally I like it because I always enjoy looking from different viewpoints.
Even if Falcon being better than Bowser and Puff being second worst is hot garbage.

Being commentator or not but putting Luigi, Samus and Zelda a whole tier below Sheik, Bayonetta or Robin is not even a bit weird.
But it still shows that certain mindsets are just hard-wired into brains by now.

 

[NotLiquid]

The funny experience observing tier lists that are practically rule of thumb at this rate.

S-Tier and half of A-tier: "Yeah, that's fair. I can see why you'd think that."
Bottom halfway point of A-Tier and below: "Okay you have some explaining to do"

(With this case, the egregious examples being Hero, ROB, Toon Link and Samus)

 

[TennisBall]

Zackray just lost a game to Kome, and countered to Ridley. Won the first game, lost the second--but it was still closer than his ROB. He was able to force Shulk to respect his range, and sneak in a lethal dash attack or side-b when he respected him too much.

Well that's interesting. If you asked me before this, I would say that Ridley gets stuffed out by Shulk completely and it isn't even fair, but zackray is zackray, so I'll have to keep that in mind.

 

[Frihetsanka]

^This. He's done a more than a lot of those A tiers like YL. And while we're at it, why do and get free passes to "best in the game" when Ness who's preformed better than both of them, 17th on Orion Stats, doesn't even get to be A tier? (I'm getting Deva Vu to discussions).

So when it comes to tier list, I find this video very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suQ0kohHg9E

So when making a tier list, we would prioritize like this: Weighted Matchups > Matchups > Theorycrafting = Observation > Results. Pikachu's weighter matchups are really, really good, whereas Ness' weighted matchups are not quite that good.

Also, keep in mind that when talking about results there are different ways to prioritize as well. OrionStat includes a lot of smaller tournaments, whereas if we only looked at A-tiers and S-tiers Pikachu would be doing a lot better than Ness. Ness probably has losing matchups to characters like Lucina, Palutena, and Zero Suit Samus, and Roy and Chrom and Greninja and Joker and Mr. Game & Watch, possibly other characters as well. Pikachu loses to Ness, Mr. Game & Watch and Peach, while probably having winning matchups against Palutena, Fox, Wolf, Joker, possibly Lucina as well. If we value Weighted Matchups, Matchups, and Theorycrafting higher than Results (as we should, as explained in the video) then it's very reasonable to place Pikachu much higher than Ness.

Ness isn't even all that low on Keitaro's list. I could see him being higher than Ike, Sonic, Young Link, and/or Pac-Man but I don't think he deserves to be higher than characters like Fox, Mario, Greninja, Chrom, R.O.B. or Mr. Game & Watch. My placement for Ness is around the same as Keitaro. Decent character with several flaws, borderline high tier but more like at the top of high-mid than high tier. Does better at smaller tournaments, struggles a bit in A-tiers and S-tiers since he's likely to run into many losing matchups. Palutena might be -2, I've seen people make a case for Lucina and/or Shulk being -2 for Ness as well.

Speaking of results, it's interesting how Greninja both has pretty good results (#9 on OrionStats) and a very, very good weighted MU chart, yet many people still don't think he's top tier. How come?

 

[TennisBall]

So when it comes to tier list, I find this video very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suQ0kohHg9E

So when making a tier list, we would prioritize like this: Weighted Matchups > Matchups > Theorycrafting = Observation > Results. Pikachu's weighter matchups are really, really good, whereas Ness' weighted matchups are not quite that good.

Also, keep in mind that when talking about results there are different ways to prioritize as well. OrionStat includes a lot of smaller tournaments, whereas if we only looked at A-tiers and S-tiers Pikachu would be doing a lot better than Ness. Ness probably has losing matchups to characters like Lucina, Ness, Palutena, and Zero Suit Samus, and Roy and Chrom and Greninja and Joker and Mr. Game & Watch, possibly other characters as well. Pikachu loses to Ness, Mr. Game & Watch and Peach, while probably having winning matchups against Palutena, Fox, Wolf, Joker, possibly Lucina as well. If we value Weighted Matchups, Matchups, and Theorycrafting higher than Results (as we should, as explained in the video) then it's very reasonable to place Pikachu much higher than Ness.

Ness isn't even all that low on Keitaro's list. I could see him being higher than Ike, Sonic, Young Link, and/or Pac-Man but I don't think he deserves to be higher than characters like Fox, Mario, Greninja, Chrom, R.O.B. or Mr. Game & Watch. My placement for Ness is around the same as Keitaro. Decent character with several flaws, borderline high tier but more like at the top of high-mid than high tier. Does better at smaller tournaments, struggles a bit in A-tiers and S-tiers since he's likely to run into many losing matchups. Palutena might be -2, I've seen people make a case for Lucina and/or Shulk being -2 for Ness as well.

Speaking of results, it's interesting how Greninja both has pretty good results (#9 on OrionStats) and a very, very good weighted MU chart, yet many people still don't think he's top tier. How come?

Some notes:
-It's been widely accepted that Ness and Joker are even, even by MkLeo, Ness destroys Joker offstage with Magnet gimping Tether and yoyo making Arsene's recovery not a big problem. Ness also doesn't have as big of a problem with dealing with Arsene as he can run away if need be and with his multi-hitting aerials and strong attacks Arsene usually goes away with 5 attacks or less. Joker also does well because Gun offstage.
-Ness is fine against Ness just Magnet offstage, it really comes down to who's better as a player/at the match up
-Greninja doesn't win against Ness but it's certainly an uphill battle, a rough even but certainly doable with Ness' comboes, offstage and ledgetrapping game compared to Greninja and the fact that Greninja is super light while being a decently sized character works wonders for Ness' kill confirms. Also side note Ness cannot absorb Water Shuriken
-Roy and Chrom seem to come down to who can get the other offstage first, both characters can brutally exploit the other offstage, while I'd hand the matchup to Chrom/Roy because swords on a personal note, I don't think losing is quite the word for it as if Ness gets Chrom offstage it's basically the stock and Roy's goal isn't really to space disjoints, which is how you shut down Ness so I don't know.
-I have a very low opinion of Ike and I think the character was carried by MkLeo/Ryuga personally but I can see the arguement for Ike being high mid, but I for sure think Ness is better, Fox/Mario/Greninja and maybe even Pac-Man are argueable Top Tiers so he's not higher than that, Sonic/Young Link maybe?
-Pikachu and Shulk get passes because the top players have shown exactly what they can do and quite frankly the things they can do are off the walls crazy.
Really I argee with Ness' placement, I think he's either high mid or absolute bottom high tier, but that tier list is whack so it's fun.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Sorry about this post in advance Rizen But people are still callinf YL as the undisputed best Link when he likely has the weakest tournament results out of them all

has got multiple top 8 placings at A-rank Japan tournaments, and then there was T's great run at Kongo Saga with .

I do not think has gotten anything yet on that level

 

[SwagGuy99]

In other news, Keitaro dropped his 6.10 tier list. For those who don't know, he's a commentator/competitive player who is most well known for frequently appearing on Nario's streams. While there does not appear to be an image, I'll list his tier list here. It's also ordered.

S Tier:,,,,,,,,,

A Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

B Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

C Tier:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

D Tier:,,,,,,

As you can tell, this is different from the average tier list. Personally I like it because I always enjoy looking from different viewpoints.
Even if Falcon being better than Bowser and Puff being second worst is hot garbage.

I saw this. I think Keitero is living about 5 months in the past with a few hot takes as well mixed in although I'd say his top tier has most of the right characters, just out of order.

 

[Tri Knight]

Sorry about this post in advance Rizen But people are still callinf YL as the undisputed best Link when he likely has the weakest tournament results out of them all

has got multiple top 8 placings at A-rank Japan tournaments, and then there was T's great run at Kongo Saga with .

I do not think has gotten anything yet on that level

I still do think that Link has the best potential of the 3 though. Not to mention T's placement IS the absolute best placement of any of the Links thus far if I'm not mistaken.