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Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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  • Total voters
    587

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
:ultjigglypuff: may seem too low, but keep in mind that :ultkirby: has gotten considerably better results than :ultjigglypuff: despite being less hyped up. If anything, he’s too low.
Also, no way :ultkrool: is that high.
They may be true, but JigglyPuff is still too low, does Kirby deserve to be Bottom 3? No, not after the buffs, even if he still clearly needs more.
I'd also agrue that K Rool is mid, Ben Gold is out here getting results, a set off of Kameme, a major I believe, and also some nice buffs with Nair being super safe on shield and some moves getting some fixs. Does this mean K Rool is for sure mid, No and I understand if you disagree with me, heck I'd disagree with me two weeks ago, but those are my opinions I suppose...
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Pikachu's quick attack hitting you helps him get gimps in almost every MU.

If you hit them once you've already gimped them, that is on you. Between quick attack alone, and then skull bash, thunder stalling, wall jumps... etc, it shouldn't really happen.

But take fox, say you take a swing at him with dair and miss... he starts firefox, you can quick attack through him, stop the startup, catch the ledge, and drop another dair on the next startup. Fox is one of the most guaranteed ones but rarely is getting stunned by a move a good thing when that character grabs the ledge and can drop down as far as he needs for a second attempt.

I believe it was ESAM vs light where this was showcased, its in ESAM's highlight video for sure... but really, if you play pika try it out. The risk reward is great unless they land a spike... but the timing is all on their guess, if they miss an aerial and you simply zip to the ledge they're in lag below pika on the ledge, also not a great spot to be in.


Pika's tjolt is superior for camping, camping isn't nearly as effective when you are hurting yourself to do it. Pichu covers approaches and gets chip damage, pika can actually make you approach. Both are top level projectiles, with a buffered full hop into either a dash or a jump you're in an amazing spot with a projectile covering you like classic 2D fighter style. Even parries aren't safe in this situation. And pika can fire off a lot, you'll probably have to approach... which is why GaW and Ness are hard MUs', they have unique tools which effectively shut this down.

Damn, in 4 it was nice to get 2 guarantee'd hits on GaW when he surely went for the bucket, now his frame data is so good on it that you aren't guaranteed it. Or my timing is bad, but it is certainly harder in this game.


Outside of gimping, quick attack is strictly better.

ESAM has said that if you don't get the DI on the dtilt, which is unreactable, you are going to get hit. It isn't a read, he can chase you, try the jab lock, and then react to your tech. Dtilt isn't pichu level but its still damn good and much much more ranged.


Down angled f-tilt is pretty awesome at the ledge.

Also F-smash may get you some early kills, but I'd much prefer a ranged kill attempt with a dash attack punish at worst than Pichu's version, where you whiff and most characters can f'smash you.

Having real kill confirms all over the place is also nice, to be specific nair should kill you at dragdown range and u-smash percentage.

Fair combos are getting better, if you don't DI it right you can get fair- > thunder spiked, nair -> dair'd (happened to Nairo from a 2frame teleport punish!) and even if he doesn't combo getting dragged down is again, a pretty terrible spot. I think his weakness is really when you don't make anything of all these terrible spots you put the opponent in, because while they're in a bad spot frequently its not as guaranteed as joker uair dragdown just killing you. And once you are out of combo range, he mostly is able to just poke you in neutral. I mean nair will always combo, but stop jumping out of shield when he FH fairs =]


Something I love about pika is that you can get your timing down with fastfalling fairs and that autocancel window is great. It can be considerably faster than just SH fair, which means you can alternate the timing between when you fair, fastfall, etc... and dragdowns actually being good in this game means a lot more, because you get jabbed in the face for landing a fair less in this game and landing a nair is either damage or a kill unless you use it directly OOS.

Pika's will get better at nair combo'ing onto platforms and other similar extensions.
 
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MrGameguycolor

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,240
Location
Somewhere in this Universe
NNID
MrGameguycolor
Switch FC
7681-9716-5789
Mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultfalco::ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ultgunner::ulticeclimbers::ultrobinf::ultkingdedede::ultrosalina::ultfalcon::ultwiifittrainer::ultlucas::ultswordfighter::ultridley::ultike::ultryu:
Low-tier: :ultmarth::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultbrawler::ultsheik::ultcloud::ultpiranha::ultkrool::ultdk::ultvillager::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultbowserjr::ultlucario:
Bottom-tier: :ultcorrinf::ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultisabelle::ultlittlemac:
Yeah that seems right for Doc.
I've given up on him since all the other characters around his placings having been getting better and better since the release of the game.

He's so slow to the point where he can get camped out badly by fast characters, his approaches are predictable, his recovery stinks while not actually being heavier then Mario, his combos and kill confirms are very conditional.

He's limited and needs buffs or else he's not going anywhere.
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Yeah that seems right for Doc.
I've given up on him since all the other characters around his placings having been getting better and better since the release of the game.

He's so slow to the point where he can get camped out badly by fast characters, his approaches are predictable, his recovery stinks while not actually being heavier then Mario, his combos and kill confirms are very conditional.

He's limited and needs buffs or else he's not going anywhere.
I've never though highly of Doctor Mario, but this is just sad for him. He's so fun too, but he feels so close to just being unviable, and I rarely ever even consider a character being that.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
Why would Chrom not be? And please don't reply with recovery.
There's three main reasons:

1. The recovery. I know he can air dodge and that his air speed is high but the horrible horizontal distance on up-b does mean that Chrom will die earlier offstage than Roy in most scenarios.
2. Roy's tippers allow him to deal more damage and give Roy a bit more variety with his kill options and combos.
3. Roy's main kill options allow him to KO a bit earlier in general (side-b, f-smash).
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,963
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
Pika's tjolt is superior for camping, camping isn't nearly as effective when you are hurting yourself to do it. Pichu covers approaches and gets chip damage, pika can actually make you approach. Both are top level projectiles, with a buffered full hop into either a dash or a jump you're in an amazing spot with a projectile covering you like classic 2D fighter style. Even parries aren't safe in this situation. And pika can fire off a lot, you'll probably have to approach... which is why GaW and Ness are hard MUs', they have unique tools which effectively shut this down.
Now wait a second; this isn't the whole story. :ultpichu:'s jolts deal more damage on hit and in the air they deal over twice as much as pikachu's (Pika: 5.7% air, 7.2% ground, Pichu: 12% air, 8.4% ground, .8% self damage). That's a big difference. I don't play the rats but I do play projectile zoners. Every shot should be with the purpose to hit. If you're using projectiles with no chance of hitting you're using them wrong. If Pichu hits in the air his jolts are far superior even with the .8% self damage because he has to hit half as many as Pikachu. On the ground he still comes out slightly ahead with 1.2% extra damage and .8% self damage. That's not to say every jolt will hit. Pichu has to play more conservatively and prioratize using his in the air. There's also his weight, or lack of to consider; Pichu can't take as much damage as the opponent. But it's not just a matter of "Pikachu's jolts are better because Pichu's deal self damage".
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Now wait a second; this isn't the whole story. :ultpichu:'s jolts deal more damage on hit and in the air they deal over twice as much as pikachu's (Pika: 5.7% air, 7.2% ground, Pichu: 12% air, 8.4% ground, .8% self damage). That's a big difference. I don't play the rats but I do play projectile zoners. Every shot should be with the purpose to hit. If you're using projectiles with no chance of hitting you're using them wrong. If Pichu hits in the air his jolts are far superior even with the .8% self damage because he has to hit half as many as Pikachu. On the ground he still comes out slightly ahead with 1.2% extra damage and .8% self damage. That's not to say every jolt will hit. Pichu has to play more conservatively and prioratize using his in the air. There's also his weight, or lack of to consider; Pichu can't take as much damage as the opponent. But it's not just a matter of "Pikachu's jolts are better because Pichu's deal self damage".
The thing is that Pikachu literally can just spam Thunder Jolts. Sure, in theory, Pichu's is better with damage output and pressure, and the self damage isn't even the biggest factor, but Pikachu's Thunder Jolts combined with his Quick Attack compared to Pichu's Agility allows Pikachu to force neutral to become Pikachu's Pressure 101, and unless you have a Bucket or Magnet there's not a lot of options, they allow him to camp offense or defense, pressure shield and basically force an option, and while Pichu can also do this, Pikachu just seems to be able to do it more effectively and consistently.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,963
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
The thing is that Pikachu literally can just spam Thunder Jolts. Sure, in theory, Pichu's is better with damage output and pressure, and the self damage isn't even the biggest factor, but Pikachu's Thunder Jolts combined with his Quick Attack compared to Pichu's Agility allows Pikachu to force neutral to become Pikachu's Pressure 101, and unless you have a Bucket or Magnet there's not a lot of options, they allow him to camp offense or defense, pressure shield and basically force an option, and while Pichu can also do this, Pikachu just seems to be able to do it more effectively and consistently.
Just spamming T jolts isn't the smart way to play. Just spamming will lose you stage control and get you cornered. If you watch ESAM vs Tweek for example, ESAM goes in and uses them as openings. Every projectile should have purpose. This goes for any projectile user.
Pichu shouldn't be played like Pikachu but he has his own game. Even without QA Pichu zones with jolts, creates openings and vortexes. And even after the nerfs he's had slightly more success than Pika.
 
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Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
There's three main reasons:

1. The recovery. I know he can air dodge and that his air speed is high but the horrible horizontal distance on up-b does mean that Chrom will die earlier offstage than Roy in most scenarios.
2. Roy's tippers allow him to deal more damage and give Roy a bit more variety with his kill options and combos.
3. Roy's main kill options allow him to KO a bit earlier in general (side-b, f-smash).
I still don't get why players don't chase an off-stage Chrom after he does the airdodge. Some characters don't have to (like Zelda) but it's really telling when the only player that challenged Rivers off-stage was Leo at an earlier tournament and Leo just murdered his Chrom there. There are millions of frames of lag after an airdodge. If you're to slow that's on you but Chrom really vulnerable there because he can only recover vertically (unlike Ike).

But this topic is very old. I still say tht Chrom's recovery is bottom 10, if not 5.

Also Roy's straight up better zhan Chrom in my opinion as well.
 

Spinosaurus

Treasure Hunter
Moderator
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Sep 6, 2010
Messages
3,655
NNID
WarioLand
Um......I'm replying with recovery because what else do you expect but since you didn't want that I'll give something else too, Chrom is more consistent on stage without sourspots, but the thing is landing sweetspots up close is a lot easier than landing sweetspots while spacing, not to mention Roy kills so early that sometimes Chrom doesn't even have the edge in killing more easily most of the time.
I don't know why this is such a common misconception when Chrom has a jab that confirms into fsmash and hits below the ledge.

Chrom has a lot of consistent and easy ways to kill you. He also has that stupid ftilt any character would dream to have.
 

Cracke

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2019
Messages
379
Location
In the attic
Another new tier-list, this time from M2K, covering bottom, low and mid-tier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwZ-si6WXg0

Mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultfalco::ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ultgunner::ulticeclimbers::ultrobinf::ultkingdedede::ultrosalina::ultfalcon::ultwiifittrainer::ultlucas::ultswordfighter::ultridley::ultike::ultryu:
Low-tier: :ultmarth::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultbrawler::ultsheik::ultcloud::ultpiranha::ultkrool::ultdk::ultvillager::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultbowserjr::ultlucario:
Bottom-tier: :ultcorrinf::ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultisabelle::ultlittlemac:

Very...controversial to say the least.
I guess he's going only off of results but even then just basic character theory goes against all of what this tier list is. There is no way the pits will ever be that low, it just doesn't make sense.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
I don't know why this is such a common misconception when Chrom has a jab that confirms into fsmash and hits below the ledge.

Chrom has a lot of consistent and easy ways to kill you. He also has that stupid ftilt any character would dream to have.
Chrom’s raw kill power also isn’t that much different than Roy’s. Chrom still kills at rather early percentages with his Fsmash or Jab -> bair nonsense at ledge. Most of his moves are strong enough to send the opponent far enough off stage he can just get KO’s with conventional edge guarding or ledge trapping as well.
 

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,657
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
I still don't get why players don't chase an off-stage Chrom after he does the airdodge. Some characters don't have to (like Zelda) but it's really telling when the only player that challenged Rivers off-stage was Leo at an earlier tournament and Leo just murdered his Chrom there. There are millions of frames of lag after an airdodge. If you're to slow that's on you but Chrom really vulnerable there because he can only recover vertically (unlike Ike).

But this topic is very old. I still say tht Chrom's recovery is bottom 10, if not 5.

Also Roy's straight up better zhan Chrom in my opinion as well.
Chrom has godly drift though which makes his bad up B unnecessary in many cases unless he's low or doesn't have a jump.

I also think that since Chrom's recovery always takes the spotlight for being poor, people tend to forget Roy's recovery is pretty terrible as well - and doesn't have the x-factor of being a suicide spike to scare people away from edgeguarding him when they're down.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,228
To break away from the conversations about Chroy and the rats, what do you guys think the Fall 2019 PGRU is going to look like?
Who is top 10? Top 20? Top 30? etc.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Projectiles aren't used just to hit the opponent.

When a Link throws a boomerang at an angle, it covers the area Link himself cannot.

Projectiles have a number of uses, including:

- Conditioning
- Covering/denying space
- Hit confirms
- Forcing approaches/mistakes

To this end, Pikachu, who can hit confirm and spam just to force to opponent to jump/get antsy/approach has more utility in his projectile than Pichu, who must limit the usage.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,228
For me, my predictions for top 10 are:

1. MkLeo:ultjoker:(:ultlucina::ultmarth::ultchrom:) 0
2. Samsora:ultpeach:(:ultdaisy::ultzss:) +2
3. Nairo:ultpalutena:(:ultzss:) +5
4. Tweek:ultwario::ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:(:ultwolf::ultbanjokazooie:) -2
5. Marss:ultzss:(:ultfalcon:) -2
6. Maister:ultgnw:New *Still have no clue why he wasn't PGR'ed on season 1.
7. Glutonny:ultwario:+7
8. Light:ultfox:+2
9. Dabuz:ultolimar:(:ultrosalina::ultpalutena:) -2
10. Zackray:ultjoker::ultrob:(:ultwolf::ultgnw::ultmario::ultridley:) +2


I wanted to predict the entire top 50, but I then realized how difficult it is to rank the top 50 in comparison to Spring 2019, so I just settled with top 10.
The fact that I had difficulty deciding the #10 spot alone goes to show how difficult the rankings are for this season.
 
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BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
I feel Captain L will be relegated to Area 51, and Elegant, Nicko, and Maister will join the top 50.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I don't know why this is such a common misconception when Chrom has a jab that confirms into fsmash and hits below the ledge.

Chrom has a lot of consistent and easy ways to kill you. He also has that stupid ftilt any character would dream to have.
I wasn't saying Chrom doesn't have good kill options, becuase he does, it's just that Roy's main kill options will kill earlier although yes, Chrom has f-tilt and he still has Roy's jab b-air confirm.

To break away from the conversations about Chroy and the rats, what do you guys think the Fall 2019 PGRU is going to look like?
Who is top 10? Top 20? Top 30? etc.
I can attempt a guess at Top 10:
  1. MKLeo :ultjoker: (:ultlucina::ultmarth::ultchrom::ultike::ultwolf:)
  2. Samsora :ultpeach: (:ultdaisy::ultzss::ultpalutena::ultbayonetta:)
  3. Nairo :ultpalutena:(:ultlucina::ultzss::ultganondorf::ultrobin:)
  4. Tweek :ultjoker::ultpokemontrainer: (:ultwario::ultwolf:)
  5. Maister :ultgnw:
  6. Marss :ultzss: (:ultike::ultlucario::ultfalcon::ultmegaman:)
  7. Light :ultfox:(:ultfalco:)
  8. Glutonny :ultwario:(:ultfalcon:)
  9. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina:(:ultpalutena::ulthero:)
  10. Zackray :ultrob::ultjoker::ultwolf:(:ultpokemontrainer::ultwario::ultlucina::ultgnw::ultsonic:)
HM: ESAM :ultpikachu: (:ultyoshi::ultsamus:)
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
To break away from the conversations about Chroy and the rats, what do you guys think the Fall 2019 PGRU is going to look like?
Who is top 10? Top 20? Top 30? etc.
People who I think could be Top 10
-MkLeo(:ultjoker::ultlucina::ultmarth:)Leo's def Number 1 on there
-Samsora(:ultpeach:)
-NarioMK(:ultpalutena:)
-Tweek(:ultwario::ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker::ultwolf:)Tweek's played like half the roster give me a break)
-Marss(:ultzss::ultmegaman:)
-zackray(:ultrob::ultwolf::ultjoker::ultgnw::ultwario:)Don't even get me started on zackray's characters
-Maister(:ultgnw:)
-Light(:ultfox:)
-Glutonny(:ultwario:)
-Tea(:ultpacman:)
-ESAM(:ultpikachu:)
-Dabuz(:ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:)
-Shuton(:ultolimar:)
Since I wanna talk further, I'll just put them in spoilers
-voiD(:ultsheik::ultpichu:)
-Kameme(:ultmegaman:)
-Rivers(:ultchrom:)
-Cosmos(:ultinkling:)
-Dark Wizzy(:ultmario:)
-ProtoBanHam(:ultlucina::ultinkling:)
-WaDi(:ultrob:)yes i know hot take
-LeoN(:ultbowser:)hot take 2:emperor strikes back
-Elegant(:ultluigi:)another hot take i'm sorry
-KEN(:ultsonic:)
-Raito(:ultduckhunt:)
-RFang(:ultpichu:)
-Wrath(:ultsonic:)
-Salem(:ultsnake::ulthero:)
-MuteAce(:ultpeach:)
-Salt One(:ultroy::ultcloud:)
-quiK(:ultsamus::ultdarksamus:)
-Space(:ultinkling::ultjoker:)yet another hot take, maybe
-T(:ultlink:)
-Lea(:ultgreninja:)
-Stroder(:ultmario::ultgreninja::ultroy::ultjoker:)
Again these are who I think could be either Top 10, 20, or 30 depending. This is based off results and also personal skill.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Chrom has godly drift though which makes his bad up B unnecessary in many cases unless he's low or doesn't have a jump.

I also think that since Chrom's recovery always takes the spotlight for being poor, people tend to forget Roy's recovery is pretty terrible as well - and doesn't have the x-factor of being a suicide spike to scare people away from edgeguarding him when they're down.
Indeed, which is a big reason why I generally don't take people who just talk about his recovery making him worse as all that valid.

As for the kill power, yeah, Roy's is ridiculous and not that hard to land, but as people have said, Chrom isn't giving up too much power for being able to kill with the entirety of his sword. Preference is one thing, and people seem to like their "explosive" fighters, but it seems a bit...arrogant? Premature? to call Roy straight up better. Especially in a game where a widely agreed upon tier list still can't seem to be worked out.
 

BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
OrionStats just received its (I assume) final update for the season.
Biggest changes I see:
:ultmario: is ahead of :ultgreninja: again, presumably it’s that Super Ascension win Prodigy got.
:ult_terry: has risen quite a bit in terms of points and position.

As far as the Fall PGRU, don’t count Tweek out for second. He still got second at EVO, Smash Con, and Kongo Saga, the most important events we’ve seen.

I think a widely agreed-upon tier list is a long way off, at least until the entire Fighters Pass is released with 7.0.0.
 
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KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Trying to come up with PGRU this season is difficult, not only because of how much talent bursted in these past months, but a LOT of players stumbled at some point at a big major or tourney.

Placing VoiD as top 20 for his performances at Super Smash Con, MainStage, and Glitchy 7 sounds easy at first, but then you also have to consider he didn't even break top 64 at Big House 9 or Kongo Saga and he came in dead last at Summit.

For this reason, I actually think Raffi-X will be ranked much higher than people give him credit for, notably because despite only going to two S Tiers this entire season, he performed phenomenally at both.

1. MKLeo :ultjoker::ultlucina:
2. Samsora :ultpeach::ultzss:
3. Tweek :ultwario::ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:
4. Nairo :ultpalutena::ultzss::ultrobinf:
5. Marss :ultzss::ultmegaman:
6. Zackray :ultjoker::ultrob::ultwolf::ultgnw:
7. Gluttony :ultwario:
8. Light :ultfox:
9. Maister :ultgnw:
10. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:
11. ESAM :ultpikachu:
12. Tea :ultpacman:
13. Kameme :ultmegaman::ultwario:
14. Shuton :ultolimar::ultshulk:
15. WaDi :ultrob::ultwiifittrainer:
16. Dark Wizzy :ultmario:
17. Kuro :ultzss:
18. Lea :ultgreninja:
19. Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
20. Kome :ultshulk:
21. T :ultlink:
22. Abadango :ultwario::ultpalutena::ultinkling::ultmetaknight::ultrosalina:
23. Pandarian :ultpokemontrainerf:
24. Joker :ultsamus::ultkrool:
25. LeoN :ultbowser:
26. Kola :ultroy::ultcloud::ultsnake:
27. Tsu :ultlucario:
28. Gackt :ultness:
29. Nietono :ultpichu::ultwario:
30. Mr. R :ultchrom::ultsnake::ultyounglink::ultsheik:
31. Raffi-X :ultrob:
32. HIKARU :ultpokemontrainerf:
33. BestNess:ultness::ultpalutena:
34. Choco :ultzss:
35. Ned :ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker::ultcloud:
36. KEN :ultsonic:
37. Umeki :ultdaisy:
38. Shogun :ultsnake:
39. Elegant :ultluigi:
40. VoiD :ultsheik::ultpichu::ultjoker:
41. NickC :ultfalcon:
42. Jw :ultgreninja:
43. Leffen :ultpokemontrainerf:
44. Puppeh :ultpokemontrainerf:
45. Myran :ultolimar:
46. Suarez :ultyoshi:
47. Goblin :ultroy:
48. Mr. E :ultlucina:
49. Rivers :ultchrom::ultdiddy:
50. Wishes :ultjoker::ulticeclimbers:

The list was based mostly off of players' performances at the A/S Tiers this season; it's really rough in that it didn't even account for player wins or B/C Tiers on that much, which should give you an idea of just how hard it is to actually do something like this lol.
 
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TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
Trying to come up with PGRU this season is difficult, not only because of how much talent bursted in these past months, but a LOT of players stumbled at some point at a big major or tourney.

Placing VoiD as top 20 for his performances at Super Smash Con, MainStage, and Glitchy 7 sounds easy at first, but then you also have to consider he didn't even break top 64 at Big House 9 or Kongo Saga and he came in dead last at Summit.

For this reason, I actually think Raffi-X will be ranked much higher than people give him credit for, notably because despite only going to two S Tiers this entire season, he performed phenomenally at both.

1. MKLeo :ultjoker::ultlucina:
2. Samsora :ultpeach::ultzss:
3. Tweek :ultwario::ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:
4. Nairo :ultpalutena::ultzss::ultrobinf:
5. Marss :ultzss::ultmegaman:
6. Zackray :ultjoker::ultrob::ultwolf::ultgnw:
7. Gluttony :ultwario:
8. Light :ultfox:
9. Maister :ultgnw:
10. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:
11. ESAM :ultpikachu:
12. Tea :ultpacman:
13. Kameme :ultmegaman::ultwario:
14. Shuton :ultolimar::ultshulk:
15. WaDi :ultrob::ultwiifittrainer:
16. Dark Wizzy :ultmario:
17. Kuro :ultzss:
18. Lea :ultgreninja:
19. Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
20. Kome :ultshulk:
21. T :ultlink:
22. Abadango :ultwario::ultpalutena::ultinkling::ultmetaknight::ultrosalina:
23. Joker :ultsamus::ultkrool:
24. LeoN :ultbowser:
25. Pandarian :ultpokemontrainerf:
26. Kola :ultroy::ultcloud::ultsnake:
27. Tsu :ultlucario:
28. Gackt :ultness:
29. Nietono :ultpichu::ultwario:
30. Mr. R :ultchrom::ultsnake::ultyounglink::ultsheik:
31. Raffi-X :ultrob:
32. HIKARU :ultpokemontrainerf:
33. BestNess:ultness::ultpalutena:
34. Choco :ultzss:
35. Ned :ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker::ultcloud:
36. KEN :ultsonic:
37. Umeki :ultdaisy:
38. Shogun :ultsnake:
39. Elegant :ultluigi:
40. VoiD :ultsheik::ultpichu::ultjoker:
41. NickC :ultfalcon:
42. Jw :ultgreninja:
43. Leffen :ultpokemontrainerf:
44. Puppeh :ultpokemontrainerf:
45. Myran :ultolimar:
46. Suarez :ultyoshi:
47. Goblin :ultroy:
48. Mr. E :ultlucina:
49. Rivers :ultchrom::ultdiddy:
50. Wishes :ultjoker::ulticeclimbers:

The list was based mostly off of players' performances at the A/S Tiers this season; it's really rough in that it didn't even account for player wins or B/C Tiers on that much, which should give you an idea of just how hard it is to actually do something like this lol.
That is a really difficult list. That beign said it holds up pretty well, my only issue being that Rivers is so low, but you siad this is based off of performences at A/S Tiers so that makes sense.
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
On a different note,When does the Fall PGRU Season come out? Do we have a date or just a basic month?
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Trying to come up with PGRU this season is difficult, not only because of how much talent bursted in these past months, but a LOT of players stumbled at some point at a big major or tourney.

Placing VoiD as top 20 for his performances at Super Smash Con, MainStage, and Glitchy 7 sounds easy at first, but then you also have to consider he didn't even break top 64 at Big House 9 or Kongo Saga and he came in dead last at Summit.

For this reason, I actually think Raffi-X will be ranked much higher than people give him credit for, notably because despite only going to two S Tiers this entire season, he performed phenomenally at both.

1. MKLeo :ultjoker::ultlucina:
2. Samsora :ultpeach::ultzss:
3. Tweek :ultwario::ultjoker::ultpokemontrainerf:
4. Nairo :ultpalutena::ultzss::ultrobinf:
5. Marss :ultzss::ultmegaman:
6. Zackray :ultjoker::ultrob::ultwolf::ultgnw:
7. Gluttony :ultwario:
8. Light :ultfox:
9. Maister :ultgnw:
10. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:
11. ESAM :ultpikachu:
12. Tea :ultpacman:
13. Kameme :ultmegaman::ultwario:
14. Shuton :ultolimar::ultshulk:
15. WaDi :ultrob::ultwiifittrainer:
16. Dark Wizzy :ultmario:
17. Kuro :ultzss:
18. Lea :ultgreninja:
19. Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
20. Kome :ultshulk:
21. T :ultlink:
22. Abadango :ultwario::ultpalutena::ultinkling::ultmetaknight::ultrosalina:
23. Joker :ultsamus::ultkrool:
24. LeoN :ultbowser:
25. Pandarian :ultpokemontrainerf:
26. Kola :ultroy::ultcloud::ultsnake:
27. Tsu :ultlucario:
28. Gackt :ultness:
29. Nietono :ultpichu::ultwario:
30. Mr. R :ultchrom::ultsnake::ultyounglink::ultsheik:
31. Raffi-X :ultrob:
32. HIKARU :ultpokemontrainerf:
33. BestNess:ultness::ultpalutena:
34. Choco :ultzss:
35. Ned :ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker::ultcloud:
36. KEN :ultsonic:
37. Umeki :ultdaisy:
38. Shogun :ultsnake:
39. Elegant :ultluigi:
40. VoiD :ultsheik::ultpichu::ultjoker:
41. NickC :ultfalcon:
42. Jw :ultgreninja:
43. Leffen :ultpokemontrainerf:
44. Puppeh :ultpokemontrainerf:
45. Myran :ultolimar:
46. Suarez :ultyoshi:
47. Goblin :ultroy:
48. Mr. E :ultlucina:
49. Rivers :ultchrom::ultdiddy:
50. Wishes :ultjoker::ulticeclimbers:

The list was based mostly off of players' performances at the A/S Tiers this season; it's really rough in that it didn't even account for player wins or B/C Tiers on that much, which should give you an idea of just how hard it is to actually do something like this lol.
Joker only participated in 3 tournaments. Replacing him with quiK would make a much more realistic list.
QuiK needs to be on the PGR btw. but probably at around 30-40.

Joker's attendence (3 tournaments) doesn't look that hot to me. Maybe he'S in, but definitely not as high as 23rd.
But we probably get two Samus mains this season that are PGR.

Another new tier-list, this time from M2K, covering bottom, low and mid-tier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwZ-si6WXg0



Very...controversial to say the least.
I hope it'S ok to post here again since it'S on a whole different topic.
2nd part of M2K's tier-list, covering the high and top-tier section

High-tier: :ultpeach::ultpikachu::ultpalutena::ultjoker::ultwario::ultpokemontrainerf::ultzss::ultgnw::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultmario::ultsnake::ultshulk::ultrob::ultolimar::ultfox::ultinkling:
High-tier: :ultgreninja::ultroy::ultlucina::ultwolf::ultchrom::ultduckhunt::ultpichu::ultzelda::ultyoshi::ult_terry::ultken::ultluigi::ultlink::ultsamus::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink::ultdiddy::ultness::ultrichter:/:ultsimon::ultbowser:
Mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultfalco::ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ultgunner::ulticeclimbers::ultrobinf::ultkingdedede::ultrosalina::ultfalcon::ultwiifittrainer::ultlucas::ultswordfighter::ultridley::ultike::ultryu:
Low-tier: :ultmarth::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultbrawler::ultsheik::ultcloud::ultpiranha::ultkrool::ultdk::ultvillager::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultbowserjr::ultlucario:
Bottom-tier: :ultcorrinf::ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultisabelle::ultlittlemac:


Uhh...k
Not sure how to feel about certain placement, like Zelda being the best char from that franchise or Bowser and Ness being that low.
Top-tiers look good. G&W and Mario are on the rise while Inklings and Snakes are declining. Same with Lucina and apparently Wolf. So I understand the top-tier section und upper high-tier part
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,963
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
Projectiles aren't used just to hit the opponent.

When a Link throws a boomerang at an angle, it covers the area Link himself cannot.

Projectiles have a number of uses, including:

- Conditioning
- Covering/denying space
- Hit confirms
- Forcing approaches/mistakes

To this end, Pikachu, who can hit confirm and spam just to force to opponent to jump/get antsy/approach has more utility in his projectile than Pichu, who must limit the usage.
If you're throwing a projectile with 0 chance of hitting an opponent it's wasted time. You're doing none of those things. Like with Palutena I see her sometimes explosive flame as a habit after launching the opponent and they recover as a result because it was too far away. Palu could have Naired them. If Link's shooting arrows backwards he's not forcing approaches. This is projectiles 101.
Again you're ignoring Pichu's increased reward as a trade off. But at this point we're beating a dead horse.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
927
Joker only participated in 3 tournaments. Replacing him with quiK would make a much more realistic list.
QuiK needs to be on the PGR btw. but probably at around 30-40.

Joker's attendence (3 tournaments) doesn't look that hot to me. Maybe he'S in, but definitely not as high as 23rd.
But we probably get two Samus mains this season that are PGR.
Didn’t quiK only go to 3 tournaments as well? He did do well at the A tiers he went to, but Joker performed better as far as S Tier events are concerned (17th at Big House 9 versus 33rd at Kongo Saga).

If we’re counting B/C Tiers, Joker’s record looks even better, placing Top 2 at both Bit Master MTY 6 and 8.

He could probably placed a little lower, though, maybe somewhere in the high 20s/low 30s.

I hope it'S ok to post here again since it'S on a whole different topic.
2nd part of M2K's tier-list, covering the high and top-tier section

High-tier: :ultpeach::ultpikachu::ultpalutena::ultjoker::ultwario::ultpokemontrainerf::ultzss::ultgnw::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultmario::ultsnake::ultshulk::ultrob::ultolimar::ultfox::ultinkling:
High-tier: :ultgreninja::ultroy::ultlucina::ultwolf::ultchrom::ultduckhunt::ultpichu::ultzelda::ultyoshi::ult_terry::ultken::ultluigi::ultlink::ultsamus::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink::ultdiddy::ultness::ultrichter:/:ultsimon::ultbowser:
Mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultfalco::ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ultgunner::ulticeclimbers::ultrobinf::ultkingdedede::ultrosalina::ultfalcon::ultwiifittrainer::ultlucas::ultswordfighter::ultridley::ultike::ultryu:
Low-tier: :ultmarth::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultbrawler::ultsheik::ultcloud::ultpiranha::ultkrool::ultdk::ultvillager::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultbowserjr::ultlucario:
Bottom-tier: :ultcorrinf::ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultisabelle::ultlittlemac:


Uhh...k
Not sure how to feel about certain placement, like Zelda being the best char from that franchise or Bowser and Ness being that low.
Top-tiers look good. G&W and Mario are on the rise while Inklings and Snakes are declining. Same with Lucina and apparently Wolf. So I understand the top-tier section und upper high-tier part
I don’t agree with it, Mew2King’s Zelda placement makes sense given that he’s always had a high opinion of her, dating all the way back to his beta tier list, where he considered her a top tier.

I feel like it’s one of the opinions he’s always stuck his guns to, much like his “:ultcloud: is a low tier” take.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
Didn’t quiK only go to 3 tournaments as well? He did do well at the A tiers he went to, but Joker performed better as far as S Tier events are concerned (17th at Big House 9 versus 33rd at Kongo Saga).

If we’re counting B/C Tiers, Joker’s record looks even better, placing Top 2 at both Bit Master MTY 6 and 8.

He could probably placed a little lower, though, maybe somewhere in the high 20s/low 30s.



I don’t agree with it, Mew2King’s Zelda placement makes sense given that he’s always had a high opinion of her, dating all the way back to his beta tier list, where he considered her a top tier.

I feel like it’s one of the opinions he’s always stuck his guns to, much like his “:ultcloud: is a low tier” take.
Looks like you're right. Quik's best placement was 2nd at Syndicate and 3rd(?) at VCA, so it seems I overestimated his overall attendance but I still think he'll make the cut.

But I've been wrong before :3.
 
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|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
If you're throwing a projectile with 0 chance of hitting an opponent it's wasted time. You're doing none of those things. Like with Palutena I see her sometimes explosive flame as a habit after launching the opponent and they recover as a result because it was too far away. Palu could have Naired them. If Link's shooting arrows backwards he's not forcing approaches. This is projectiles 101.
Again you're ignoring Pichu's increased reward as a trade off. But at this point we're beating a dead horse.
It's not a 0% chance of hitting.

But more, it's to lock out certain options. Take for example when Samus throws out missiles and has a full charge shot. Samus knows that shielding will beat out the missiles.

At some point, though, people will get antsy. That's why every Samus knows when to fair; they understand their opponent is getting antsy.

Similarly, with jolts, if Pikachu is in the lead, he can toss out jolts to control the approach of an opponent. They're behind and must approach. How they choose to get past jolts tells the Pikachu a lot, even if they don't get hit by a single one.

This is my favorite video on projectiles, and I recommend everyone watch it:


Also important to note is that different projectiles have different strengths. While you may want to throw out full Charge Shot when you have a greater guarantee it might hit, mini Charge Shot or weaker projectiles can disrupt your opponent's game without ever dealing damage.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
713
I hope it'S ok to post here again since it'S on a whole different topic.
2nd part of M2K's tier-list, covering the high and top-tier section

High-tier: :ultpeach::ultpikachu::ultpalutena::ultjoker::ultwario::ultpokemontrainerf::ultzss::ultgnw::ultmegaman::ultpacman::ultmario::ultsnake::ultshulk::ultrob::ultolimar::ultfox::ultinkling:
High-tier: :ultgreninja::ultroy::ultlucina::ultwolf::ultchrom::ultduckhunt::ultpichu::ultzelda::ultyoshi::ult_terry::ultken::ultluigi::ultlink::ultsamus::ulttoonlink::ultyounglink::ultdiddy::ultness::ultrichter:/:ultsimon::ultbowser:
Mid-tier: :ultsonic::ultfalco::ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ultgunner::ulticeclimbers::ultrobinf::ultkingdedede::ultrosalina::ultfalcon::ultwiifittrainer::ultlucas::ultswordfighter::ultridley::ultike::ultryu:
Low-tier: :ultmarth::ultganondorf::ultbayonetta::ultbrawler::ultsheik::ultcloud::ultpiranha::ultkrool::ultdk::ultvillager::ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultbowserjr::ultlucario:
Bottom-tier: :ultcorrinf::ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultisabelle::ultlittlemac:


Uhh...k
Not sure how to feel about certain placement, like Zelda being the best char from that franchise or Bowser and Ness being that low.
Top-tiers look good. G&W and Mario are on the rise while Inklings and Snakes are declining. Same with Lucina and apparently Wolf. So I understand the top-tier section und upper high-tier part
I don't really like this list for a lot of reasons and while normally I might take some time to explain my issues with this tier list, I don't really think I have to here since there are so many obvious ones:

  • :ultroy::ultlucina::ultchrom: are all too low. :ultchrom: is top high tier minimum and :ultlucina: and :ultroy: should both be top tiers with as big as the tiers are here.
  • :ultmegaman: seems too high to me.
  • :ultwolf: is too low.
  • :ultduckhunt: :ultzelda: and :ultsimon:/:ultrichter: are way too high.
  • :ultsamus: seems a bit high.
  • :ultbowser: is too low.
  • :ultkingdedede: might be a bit high.
  • :ultike: is too low and so is :ultmarth:.
  • :ultsheik: and :ultcloud: are both at least 20 spots too low.
  • :ultkrool: > :ultdk: for real? WHY?
  • :ultbowserjr: is a bit too low.
  • :ultvillager: is too low.
  • :ultlucario: seems a bit too low but he's one of the harder characters to judge so this placement might not be horrible.
  • :ultjigglypuff: is too low (especially post-patch).
Edit: As BitBitio pointed out, :ultkirby: is also a bit too low and probably could be in low tier as opposed to bottom tier.
 
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BitBitio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
205
I don't really like this list for a lot of reasons and while normally I might take some time to explain my issues with this tier list, I don't really think I have to here since there are so many obvious ones:

  • :ultroy::ultlucina::ultchrom: are all too low. :ultchrom: is top high tier minimum and :ultlucina: and :ultroy: should both be top tiers with as big as the tiers are here.
  • :ultmegaman: seems too high to me.
  • :ultwolf: is too low.
  • :ultduckhunt: :ultzelda: and :ultsimon:/:ultrichter: are way too high.
  • :ultsamus: seems a bit high.
  • :ultbowser: is too low.
  • :ultkingdedede: might be a bit high.
  • :ultike: is too low and so is :ultmarth:.
  • :ultsheik: and :ultcloud: are both at least 20 spots too low.
  • :ultkrool: > :ultdk: for real? WHY?
  • :ultbowserjr: is a bit too low.
  • :ultvillager: is too low.
  • :ultlucario: seems a bit too low but he's one of the harder characters to judge so this placement might not be horrible.
  • :ultjigglypuff: is too low (especially post-patch).
:ultkirby:...
Don’t forget :ultkirby:...
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
I don't really like this list for a lot of reasons and while normally I might take some time to explain my issues with this tier list, I don't really think I have to here since there are so many obvious ones:

  • :ultroy::ultlucina::ultchrom: are all too low. :ultchrom: is top high tier minimum and :ultlucina: and :ultroy: should both be top tiers with as big as the tiers are here.
  • :ultmegaman: seems too high to me.
  • :ultwolf: is too low.
  • :ultduckhunt: :ultzelda: and :ultsimon:/:ultrichter: are way too high.
  • :ultsamus: seems a bit high.
  • :ultbowser: is too low.
  • :ultkingdedede: might be a bit high.
  • :ultike: is too low and so is :ultmarth:.
  • :ultsheik: and :ultcloud: are both at least 20 spots too low.
  • :ultkrool: > :ultdk: for real? WHY?
  • :ultbowserjr: is a bit too low.
  • :ultvillager: is too low.
  • :ultlucario: seems a bit too low but he's one of the harder characters to judge so this placement might not be horrible.
  • :ultjigglypuff: is too low (especially post-patch).
You really see something in Sheik. May I ask what it is?
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Chrom is better than Roy for only ONE reason.

Superior jab confirm.

That is literally it.
 

Milo AKA Papa

Activating Combat Mode
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
1,339
Location
United States, VA
Switch FC
SW-4274-2684-5210
While I think M2K can think whatever he wants about where characters belong on a tier list it's beyond frustrating seeing his reasoning for a lot of it. His reasoning for almost every placement is either (one of the following) a lack of results, one notable result, basing it off Salem's opinion, or MKLeo's opinion/if MKleo play the character. There's no consistency in his logic for a placement and I don't think should be looked at too much because of it. It honestly just seems like MVG milking content. I'm not sure why this looked at too much in the first place, afaik and you can correct me if I'm wrong m2k doesn't even play the game besides casually.
 

Arthur97

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
3,463
Aren't most of these tier lists essentially click bait? Need some cash? Make a tier list! Be sure to throw in a few controversial opinions in there to get people talking too.
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
If your a tap jumper like me you can even just hold up to do this.
https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/1207356085109174278

My initial reaction is this won’t be too major outside of some more specific impacts. Being able to avoid getting your landing beat by Mario’s up smash is great, but you still have to land, your still jumpless and Mario isn’t in enough lag he can’t just chase you down and try it again. You could have just landed with the aerial/air dodge to begin with. It adds another layer to trapping landings but will probably just be an annoyance rather game breaking when it comes to faster grounded anti airs, I don’t doubt it won’t save you a few times.


However when it comes to characters who get mileage off vertical combos and KO options this will absolutely be big. In the same vein Mario won’t be able to pull off extended up air strings and that’s going to hurt, being in the air himself he won’t have the ability to just chase you down if you phantom off him like this.
 

Gearkeeper-8a

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
198
This cannot work in tumble, is a niche mix up against some characters, and all of these characters are fast enough to still pressure you in disadvantage do people seriously want to waste their double jump against Mario, fox and palutena?? why are smash content creator so clickbaity.
 
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