Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

That is one of the wonkiest character lineups I have ever seen. I need to know what his Olimar did, cause I am interested.

He went ROB, Olimar and Kazuya in the pools phase.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Opinions on Meta Knight? I just feel like Leo kind of matchup checked Japan. They don't have that good a Byleth and I don't know how good their best Metaknight is but they probably do not have one that plays like Leos. So its like he matchup checked Japan using both characters and himself as a player.

I have no idea where Metaknight stands among all the good but not top characters. Leos MK was very hype but its clear Leo is still figuring things out with the char to a certain degree. Is this another case of Japanese players losing to rushdown?

The loss to Hurt sucked but Leo looked better than his Lumirank going by the entirety of his performance.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Opinions on Meta Knight? I just feel like Leo kind of matchup checked Japan. They don't have that good a Byleth and I don't know how good their best Metaknight is but they probably do not have one that plays like Leos. So its like he matchup checked Japan using both characters and himself as a player.

I have no idea where Metaknight stands among all the good but not top characters. Leos MK was very hype but its clear Leo is still figuring things out with the char to a certain degree. Is this another case of Japanese players losing to rushdown?

The loss to Hurt sucked but Leo looked better than his Lumirank going by the entirety of his performance.

Abadango used to be their best Meta Knight by far and had the best result of any Meta Knight ever, getting 2nd at Kagaribi 8. This was back in 2022 and was the same tournament that was Miya's first ever major win. Then Abadango couldn't get those results anymore, tried playing different characters, still wasn't getting those results, and retired from Smash entirely. Now I think their best Meta Knight is Metara, who was ranked top 150 for the 2023 season on LumiRank, but unranked for the 2024.1 season.

I don't know if they were getting matchup checked by Meta Knight or not, because some of the veterans would've played against both Abadango and Metara. As for Byleth, they do have Reno and Rizeasu, who are both great players, but those two players are not as consistent as Leo is with that character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sumabato SP 51 (S or S+ Tier event)

1st: Asimo
2nd: acola
3rd: Akakikusu
4th: Maister
5th: Yoshidora
5th: Fui
7th: Ryuoh
7th: Raru
9th: Jogibu
9th: alice
9th: Hurt
9th: Snow
13th: MASA
13th: Toriguri
13th: Luminous
13th: Tsuna


I was going to say that this is the first time Ryu in Ultimate has won a major tournament (let alone a supermajor), but it turns out that has never won a major tournament either, so this is the first time across both Smash games that Ryu has won a major tournament.

Must be the powerup of Kusanagi's recent major tournament win in SF6.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Luminosity Invitational: Back 2 School (A+ Tier)

1. Kola
2. Sparg0
3. Shuton
4. Zomba
5. MkLeo
5. Asimo
7. ShinyMark
7. Light
9. Tweek
9. Glutonny
9. Maister
9. Marss
13. TM7_ZAP
13. Dabuz
13. Sonix
13. SHADIC

's our boy. Cool storylines this tournament, Kola won a major, which hasn't happened since CEO 2021, Sparg0 made a very impressive losers run after a poor pools performance, MkLeo beat most of his bracket demons, and Shuton and Asimo are showing consistency. Light also made his first top 8 in a while so that's nice to see.

 

[Rizen]

Congrats to Kola and Asimo for proving they can win against the big boys. I just want to point out all top three winners used sword characters. Swords are extremely powerful in the meta. Another thing to note is this is by far Sonix's worst performance. Is he falling off? Also it's been a long time since Steve has won anything major. It seems like people are getting better at dealing with him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Congrats to Kola and Asimo for proving they can win against the big boys. I just want to point out all top three winners used sword characters. Swords are extremely powerful in the meta. Another thing to note is this is by far Sonix's worst performance. Is he falling off? Also it's been a long time since Steve has won anything major. It seems like people are getting better at dealing with him.

To be fair, Sonix's bracket felt constructed to give him the hardest time, as he was put up with a couple of his biggest demons in pools (Shinymark & Light) into immediately fighting Sparg0's Roy for 13th.

For Steve, with the exception of the major win I am going to mention in a sec, the character hasn't won anything major in a long while mainly cause acola isn't quite winning events as often as he used to be. He is getting top placements incredibly consistently, but not quite getting that gold. Due note that crêpe salée did recently become the 3rd ever Steve player to win a major, winning UFA 2024 with mostly solo Steve (only used secondaries in pools), so there is that.

 

[Rizen]

Due note that crêpe salée did recently become the 3rd ever Steve player to win a major, winning UFA 2024 with mostly solo Steve (only used secondaries in pools), so there is that.

Oh yeah; I forgot about that.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I would really like to blame Sonix placement on people becoming better at fighting Sonic and the character not being as good as he seems. But I do not think that is the case.

It was just poor bracket luck. And Sonix crumbling under the pressure of it and not playing his best as a consequence; Light showing up for the first time in a while and then having to fight the best player in the world for 13th place. Sonix has gotta have some mentality issues after his 2nd place streak. He looks like he does when you look at the player cams.

I do think Sonic could potentially have some issues vs zoners with good recoveries. Chars who can force Sonic to approach and who live for a long time while being able to kill Sonic relatively early. Capitancit0 was doing well vs Sonix for a while before he started losing their many sets. And thats with Mii Gunner who is a mid tier char. There's gotta be some better char who fits the description? Or perhaps there is not.

Maybe its better to just pick a fast swordie char who is a top tier and force approaches with horizontal mobility. Or Corrin whose 360 hitbitbox nair makes it hard for Sonic to approach. You run the risk of getting gimped if you play Corrin or Roy or Aegis or Fox. But you get access to better characters who are relatively easy to play because they just require fundamentals and have simple gameplans (would not say Fox is easy tho, if he was there would be more Foxes at top level) That seems to be the case right now.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Been a bit since the last post here. A couple of major tournaments happened recently, and here they are.

Sumabato SP 52 (337 Entrants, A+)
1st: acola
2nd: Asimo
3rd: Raru
4th: Yoshidora
5th: MASA
5th: Raki
7th: Yone_pi
7th: Umeki
9th: Toriguri
9th: KEN
9th: Ryuoh
9th: Nyonoknb
13th: alice
13th: Kome
13th: Gorioka
13th: Fui
17th: Furararamen
17th: Kuroponzu
17th: Shion
17th: kept
17th: Jogibu
17th: Karaage
17th: Rarikkusu
17th: Rimu

Another day in the office for acola, seizing his revenge on Asimo for the previous Sumabato SP.


Cirque 4 (145 Entrants, A+)
1st: Miya
2nd: Lima
3rd: Light
4th: Sparg0
5th: SHADIC
5th: Tea
7th: Peabnut
7th: Tweek
9th: Kola
9th: TM7_ZAP
9th: Goblin
9th: Doramigi
13th: BeastModePaul
13th: Lui$
13th: Dominator
13th: jBoneX
17th: Osh9
17th: Aaron
17th: Epic_Gabriel
17th: Dany
17th: ChocoTaco
17th: Hurt
17th: Snow
17th: Zomba (DQ'd)

I may be mistaken, but I think this is Miya's first major win in a NA tournament, which is nice considering his not-so-stellar history in NA events.


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With the year coming close to an end, I am expecting the start of next year to feature the next iteration of the official tier list for Ultimate. It has been 3 years since the game last got patched, but this year still features quite a bit of meta/character shifts since the previous year.

For reference, this is the latest tier list published February 2024.

Since I want to raise some discussion to this mostly inactive thread, so I am wondering from folks here on what should we expect in terms of character movements for the next tier list. Obvious ones includes Corrin and Bayo rising up the ranks, which is something we have known for many months at this point, but I'd like to hear stuff for other characters too. I'll give my two cents later down the line.

 

[Cheryl~]

Been a bit since the last post here. A couple of major tournaments happened recently, and here they are.

Sumabato SP 52 (337 Entrants, A+)
1st: acola
2nd: Asimo
3rd: Raru
4th: Yoshidora
5th: MASA
5th: Raki
7th: Yone_pi
7th: Umeki
9th: Toriguri
9th: KEN
9th: Ryuoh
9th: Nyonoknb
13th: alice
13th: Kome
13th: Gorioka
13th: Fui
17th: Furararamen
17th: Kuroponzu
17th: Shion
17th: kept
17th: Jogibu
17th: Karaage
17th: Rarikkusu
17th: Rimu

Another day in the office for acola, seizing his revenge on Asimo for the previous Sumabato SP.


Cirque 4 (145 Entrants, A+)
1st: Miya
2nd: Lima
3rd: Light
4th: Sparg0
5th: SHADIC
5th: Tea
7th: Peabnut
7th: Tweek
9th: Kola
9th: TM7_ZAP
9th: Goblin
9th: Doramigi
13th: BeastModePaul
13th: Lui$
13th: Dominator
13th: jBoneX
17th: Osh9
17th: Aaron
17th: Epic_Gabriel
17th: Dany
17th: ChocoTaco
17th: Hurt
17th: Snow
17th: Zomba (DQ'd)

I may be mistaken, but I think this is Miya's first major win in a NA tournament, which is nice considering his not-so-stellar history in NA events.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the year coming close to an end, I am expecting the start of next year to feature the next iteration of the official tier list for Ultimate. It has been 3 years since the game last got patched, but this year still features quite a bit of meta/character shifts since the previous year.

For reference, this is the latest tier list published February 2024.
View attachment 395484

Since I want to raise some discussion to this mostly inactive thread, so I am wondering from folks here on what should we expect in terms of character movements for the next tier list. Obvious ones includes Corrin and Bayo rising up the ranks, which is something we have known for many months at this point, but I'd like to hear stuff for other characters too. I'll give my two cents later down the line.

Some characters I can see rising in the next iteration:

at 39th under characters like Sephiroth and Young Link is pretty funny nowadays with Raru proving that the character can consistently place very high and even threaten to take majors (even more impressively as a solo main too). Now that Raru is a household name, I expect top player's opinions on Luigi to increase a fair bit, at least pushing him out of B+ tier if I had to guess.

's placement is honestly largely because of Japan's continued low opinion of the character, but with ShinyMark's continued success with innovating the character's timeout strategy, it could be enough for Pika to rise a few spots. Probably won't be cracking top 10 though.

are both characters that I feel are a bit low for the results they have achieved, but I wouldn't really place them higher than B+ anyway. Hero is almost certainly seeing a rise though with Akak and BeastModePaul pushing the character to amazing heights this year.

DK's placement here is almost as funny as Luigi's to me. Probably one of the biggest rising stars of the 2024 meta, DK now boasts multiple high-level reps in Japan and NA who have been getting upsets left and right. DK's best wins this year, including players such as Light and Hurt, far outclass his peers in D+ and honestly up to C+ as well. The character has certainly given many top players a reason to fear him this year, and I expect a big rise up for the funny monkey to show that he's more equal with fellow heavyweights like Bowser and Incineroar.

As for characters that I see going down in the tier list, I can't really say for sure any of them would be falling outside of some of the more niche low tiers that have failed to make a mark on the meta since this last iteration. Robin and Mewtwo feel like outliers compared to characters like Bowser Jr. and even Zelda who have had some level of success between multiple mains. Robin is entirely dependent on Leaf to get any sort of result at this point, and Mewtwo's best player is stuck in Norway which is already a bad sign for consistent results.

 

[Rizen]

Don't forget Light won the Litvitational 3 and Wavelength 2024 with . Light's really been on a redemption tour along with Miya.

Two characters I can see moving up are and . Their results speak for themselves. Roy never should have been bumped down as far as he was; he's always been a top tier.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Been a bit of time, so I'll give my thoughts.

As time goes on, I feel that there is a far defined gap in power and meta presence between the A tier characters and the A- tier characters (minus Corrin and Bayo, of course). I won't be surprised if a lot of them drops down to the B tiers.

Now for individual characters:
The top 6 characters from the previous tier list is, funnily enough, pretty much exactly the same this year. Nothing has really changed regarding these guys.
acola isn't winning (or attending) as often as he used to be, and some players like Onin and Quandale hasn't been attending that much nowadays, but his continued high reps and with the emergence/improvements to players like Syrup and crepe salee, he is still def #1.
I guess one thing to note is that I don't necessarily agree with Steve and Sonic being put in a tier above the other 4. I think they are ranked that way cause they are the undisputed top 2 in the voting, but power level wise, those two aren't that much stronger than the other 4.

Guess we might rip this band-aid out right now. Ever since the start of the year, these two characters have soared in terms of both meta presence and results, and are two of the most improved from this year. I think both are solidly top 15 characters right now, A+ tier characters at the very least, with Bayo in particular potentially breaking into the top 10.
This year saw the emergence of TamaP and his strong results of the character, but funnily enough, has hasn't done really hot as of late. Lima's performance at Cirque 4, which happened literally a few days ago, shows that the character is still very strong and has even more room at grow.

Peach has unfortunately kind of hit of rough spot this year; MuteAce has been heavily underperforming in most of his events this year, and the character is still in a more niche spot representation-wise. Still very good, but I am unsure if she will maintain her top 10 placement this year.

On the flipside, while it was kind of alarming that Joker ended up going from #3 to nearly out of the top 10 going from the first list to the second, I think this character has solidified his top 10 position this year. MkLeo has started to pick up steam again with the character at the top level, and other players like Omega has continued to perform well with him as well.

The four characters currently in the A+ tier, and will likely be joined by Corrin and Bayo (and maybe Peach).
I think in this point in the meta, he is likely the weakest of the aforementioned four; the character hasn't really been seen at the highest level that much ever since Riddles started shifted his focus towards Street Fighter 6, and his polarizing matchups/weaknesses has been more pronounced as of late. The emergence of Wildz this year helps a bit, but still not quite the drive the character needs.
Want to talk about Yoshi specifically, cause while there was a lot of skepticism of him being ranked in the same lieu of the other 3 in the 2nd list, I think this year solidified his spot here. Yoshidora continues to perform excellently, but we also saw the emergence of Fui and the resurgence of Ron in the Japanese scene placing very highly and even outplacing Yoshidora at times. Yoshidora finally being able to attend and place very highly in NA majors will also improve his perception further.

The trio of A tiers definitely improved this year, but still likely going to end up in a similar tier position due to Corrin and Bayo trending up, and Palu, Samus, and Sora trending down. At the very least, I think Pika should prob the join the A+ tier. Mario has prob improved the most of the three, as at the very least, I think he outranks Wolf and Palutena.
improvement is Shinymark essentially replacing ESAM as the top dog of Pikachu, with great wins and results of the character, breathing new life to the character.
improvement mainly comes with Kola and Goblin obtaining better results this year, with Kola's recent win at Luminosity Invitational 2 being indicative of that.
improvement comes from the emergence of Snow. With Kurama and Dark Wizzy falling far behind the meta sadly, Snow is the drive that Mario meta desperately needs, and good lord what a drive that is.

While I said that is trending down, I think both are still solid A tier characters, but definitely doesn't have the same steam as the above three. On the other hand...
To be frank, I have no idea how this character ended up being ranked this highly in the first place. That being said, there is no doubt this character dropped off a cliff this year, largely thanks to Kameme being largely absent this year. The character continues in be sparse outside of him, with the only other player coming close to his success is Raarchyor, who doesn't solo main him and is also dealing with his own placements/reps being more sparse than last year. Likely the character who is going to fall off the list the most from the previous list.

If there is any character that can match Corrin and Bayo's increased prevalence in the meta, it is this guy. Luigi has soared in terms of top level representation and results. Players like Luugi and especially Raru has taken top placements in tournaments. Luigi players have shown that they don't need a grab to potentially deliver ridiculous damage combos or kill confirms, something that has only increased the character's threat level. Another no brainer for a rise, although I am not sure to what extent he will rise.

Definitely the most puzzling placement from the previous list due to being seemingly underranked, but Peabnut's continued great placements/wins with the character will likely result in a rise.

With Young Link's meta becoming increasingly stagnate in the past 2 years (and is likely going to drop down the list), Toon Link has emerged the best Link around. Lvl 1 has emerged this year with some consistently strong placements and wins with the character.

If there is any other character other than Sora that is likely going to drop off the most, it is Sephiroth. He doesn't really have any players anymore, as even the few top players who second the character like Tweek and KEN have pretty much stopped using him altogether. BeastModePaul is prob the only player that still uses him, but even that is a stretch since he primarily plays solo Hero is tournaments (who, as Cheryl says, is likely going to rise in the list as well). Still a menace in the mid level, which is likely where he is going to end up in the next list.

Despises the fact that MkLeo is primarily playing Joker in tournaments all year long. He did bring him out to reverse sweep a Japanese Shulk player (forgot his name), but that is about it. His set vs acola definitely shows a character that primarily relies on matchup checks to get his ridiculous stuff going. The character continues to get very little support outside of Leo, with Rizeasu losing tournament presence not helping either.



In general, I expect to see the C tier to see yet another massive reshifting, whether it is from B tier characters likely dropping down the C tiers, D tiers rising up to the C tiers, or the tournament presence of characters within the tier trending up and down.
Another massive winner of this year, but Cheryl already took the words out of my mouth, so I will leave it at that.
Also deserves an honorable mention, as TM7_ZAP is definitely the drive this characters needs to have an improved standing in the cast. Likely rising to the C tiers this time around alongside DK.
This character really enjoys Toriguri proving that the character isn't complete wack, and also benefits from some characters ranked above them getting more stagnate. This is still a flawed, matchup-checky character, but definitely one I can see rising up in the next list.
These three were the talk-of-the-town last year, but unfortunately they did not continue their momentum this year.
For ICs, it is largely cause Big D hasn't attended that much this year, so the character is likely not going to drop off that much.
The other two on the other hand has their best players, Skyjay and BassMage, respectively, struggle to obtain the same success as last year, especially in BassMage's case. Seems like it is a case of: rare character gets increased tournament presence from one player -> players learn the matchup -> said player doesn't get the same success.
This is a sad, but expected one, but Link's perception for many players has dropped off yet again this year. To be fair, the character has not obtained much of any results since pre-quarantine, but the character's meta continues to be stagnate for years which has caused many players to re-evalutate the character's toolkit. There are still some that see potential in him, but this has started to become more difficult to justify as we approach the game's 6th year of existing.

I think the character will likely still be ranked in the D tiers, but I do think his standing within the D tiers will be improved. Guilheww and JeJaJeJa's improved tournament placements this year has definitely contributed to an improvement to Kirby's previously dismal perception.


There are some other minor stuff that comes to mind on what may likely happen in the next list, but these are my thoughts.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I've been thinking about Corrin's placement in the meta and I've reached some conclusions. First off, she's a solid, good character, who tends to not really lose MUs hard but also not win MUs hard. She rewards players who can play a mix of strong fundamentals with a strong advantage state (knowing her combos etc). A strong Corrin player has the tool to win any MUs (Sheik is very rough though, but luckily for Corrin players good Sheiks are rare). If you think this description kind of sounds like early meta Lucina that's because she kind of is in a similar position in some ways. Corrin, as a character, is not really amazing. She's good, sure, and in the hands of a top 10 player she's going to seem really, really strong. She's lucky to have SHADIC playing her, without him there's almost no way people would argue that she's top 20, much less top 15. Neo is also a really strong player, but after that she falls off. Sure, some top players have used her as a secondary/pocket pick, like MkLeo and Sparg0, but they all seem to drop her after a while, and I imagine they would've gotten similar results with another high tier sword character, like Lucina or Sora. After Neo there's a significant drop in results, other Corrin players aren't producing nearly as good results.

Corrin is a good character. She does lose a lot of MUs (slightly), but most of her losing MUs are very doable, and she only has a few really bad MUs (and even then the top Corrin players do well vs them these days). People are probably overrating her because of SHADIC though. Somewhere around top 25-30 seems reasonable for her, I think. SHADIC thinks she's top 20 at best. Neo thinks she's around top 35 but I think that might be a tad too pessimistic. Around top 25-30 sounds good to me.

 

[Rizen]

Been a bit of time, so I'll give my thoughts.

As time goes on, I feel that there is a far defined gap in power and meta presence between the A tier characters and the A- tier characters (minus Corrin and Bayo, of course). I won't be surprised if a lot of them drops down to the B tiers.

Now for individual characters:
The top 6 characters from the previous tier list is, funnily enough, pretty much exactly the same this year. Nothing has really changed regarding these guys.
acola isn't winning (or attending) as often as he used to be, and some players like Onin and Quandale hasn't been attending that much nowadays, but his continued high reps and with the emergence/improvements to players like Syrup and crepe salee, he is still def #1.
I guess one thing to note is that I don't necessarily agree with Steve and Sonic being put in a tier above the other 4. I think they are ranked that way cause they are the undisputed top 2 in the voting, but power level wise, those two aren't that much stronger than the other 4.

Guess we might rip this band-aid out right now. Ever since the start of the year, these two characters have soared in terms of both meta presence and results, and are two of the most improved from this year. I think both are solidly top 15 characters right now, A+ tier characters at the very least, with Bayo in particular potentially breaking into the top 10.
This year saw the emergence of TamaP and his strong results of the character, but funnily enough, has hasn't done really hot as of late. Lima's performance at Cirque 4, which happened literally a few days ago, shows that the character is still very strong and has even more room at grow.

Peach has unfortunately kind of hit of rough spot this year; MuteAce has been heavily underperforming in most of his events this year, and the character is still in a more niche spot representation-wise. Still very good, but I am unsure if she will maintain her top 10 placement this year.

On the flipside, while it was kind of alarming that Joker ended up going from #3 to nearly out of the top 10 going from the first list to the second, I think this character has solidified his top 10 position this year. MkLeo has started to pick up steam again with the character at the top level, and other players like Omega has continued to perform well with him as well.

The four characters currently in the A+ tier, and will likely be joined by Corrin and Bayo (and maybe Peach).
I think in this point in the meta, he is likely the weakest of the aforementioned four; the character hasn't really been seen at the highest level that much ever since Riddles started shifted his focus towards Street Fighter 6, and his polarizing matchups/weaknesses has been more pronounced as of late. The emergence of Wildz this year helps a bit, but still not quite the drive the character needs.
Want to talk about Yoshi specifically, cause while there was a lot of skepticism of him being ranked in the same lieu of the other 3 in the 2nd list, I think this year solidified his spot here. Yoshidora continues to perform excellently, but we also saw the emergence of Fui and the resurgence of Ron in the Japanese scene placing very highly and even outplacing Yoshidora at times. Yoshidora finally being able to attend and place very highly in NA majors will also improve his perception further.

The trio of A tiers definitely improved this year, but still likely going to end up in a similar tier position due to Corrin and Bayo trending up, and Palu, Samus, and Sora trending down. At the very least, I think Pika should prob the join the A+ tier. Mario has prob improved the most of the three, as at the very least, I think he outranks Wolf and Palutena.
improvement is Shinymark essentially replacing ESAM as the top dog of Pikachu, with great wins and results of the character, breathing new life to the character.
improvement mainly comes with Kola and Goblin obtaining better results this year, with Kola's recent win at Luminosity Invitational 2 being indicative of that.
improvement comes from the emergence of Snow. With Kurama and Dark Wizzy falling far behind the meta sadly, Snow is the drive that Mario meta desperately needs, and good lord what a drive that is.

While I said that is trending down, I think both are still solid A tier characters, but definitely doesn't have the same steam as the above three. On the other hand...
To be frank, I have no idea how this character ended up being ranked this highly in the first place. That being said, there is no doubt this character dropped off a cliff this year, largely thanks to Kameme being largely absent this year. The character continues in be sparse outside of him, with the only other player coming close to his success is Raarchyor, who doesn't solo main him and is also dealing with his own placements/reps being more sparse than last year. Likely the character who is going to fall off the list the most from the previous list.

If there is any character that can match Corrin and Bayo's increased prevalence in the meta, it is this guy. Luigi has soared in terms of top level representation and results. Players like Luugi and especially Raru has taken top placements in tournaments. Luigi players have shown that they don't need a grab to potentially deliver ridiculous damage combos or kill confirms, something that has only increased the character's threat level. Another no brainer for a rise, although I am not sure to what extent he will rise.

Definitely the most puzzling placement from the previous list due to being seemingly underranked, but Peabnut's continued great placements/wins with the character will likely result in a rise.

With Young Link's meta becoming increasingly stagnate in the past 2 years (and is likely going to drop down the list), Toon Link has emerged the best Link around. Lvl 1 has emerged this year with some consistently strong placements and wins with the character.

If there is any other character other than Sora that is likely going to drop off the most, it is Sephiroth. He doesn't really have any players anymore, as even the few top players who second the character like Tweek and KEN have pretty much stopped using him altogether. BeastModePaul is prob the only player that still uses him, but even that is a stretch since he primarily plays solo Hero is tournaments (who, as Cheryl says, is likely going to rise in the list as well). Still a menace in the mid level, which is likely where he is going to end up in the next list.

Despises the fact that MkLeo is primarily playing Joker in tournaments all year long. He did bring him out to reverse sweep a Japanese Shulk player (forgot his name), but that is about it. His set vs acola definitely shows a character that primarily relies on matchup checks to get his ridiculous stuff going. The character continues to get very little support outside of Leo, with Rizeasu losing tournament presence not helping either.



In general, I expect to see the C tier to see yet another massive reshifting, whether it is from B tier characters likely dropping down the C tiers, D tiers rising up to the C tiers, or the tournament presence of characters within the tier trending up and down.
Another massive winner of this year, but Cheryl already took the words out of my mouth, so I will leave it at that.
Also deserves an honorable mention, as TM7_ZAP is definitely the drive this characters needs to have an improved standing in the cast. Likely rising to the C tiers this time around alongside DK.
This character really enjoys Toriguri proving that the character isn't complete wack, and also benefits from some characters ranked above them getting more stagnate. This is still a flawed, matchup-checky character, but definitely one I can see rising up in the next list.
These three were the talk-of-the-town last year, but unfortunately they did not continue their momentum this year.
For ICs, it is largely cause Big D hasn't attended that much this year, so the character is likely not going to drop off that much.
The other two on the other hand has their best players, Skyjay and BassMage, respectively, struggle to obtain the same success as last year, especially in BassMage's case. Seems like it is a case of: rare character gets increased tournament presence from one player -> players learn the matchup -> said player doesn't get the same success.
This is a sad, but expected one, but Link's perception for many players has dropped off yet again this year. To be fair, the character has not obtained much of any results since pre-quarantine, but the character's meta continues to be stagnate for years which has caused many players to re-evalutate the character's toolkit. There are still some that see potential in him, but this has started to become more difficult to justify as we approach the game's 6th year of existing.

I think the character will likely still be ranked in the D tiers, but I do think his standing within the D tiers will be improved. Guilheww and JeJaJeJa's improved tournament placements this year has definitely contributed to an improvement to Kirby's previously dismal perception.


There are some other minor stuff that comes to mind on what may likely happen in the next list, but these are my thoughts.

I'm going to run off my thoughts about a few of these comments.

About : while it's true, YL has nowhere to go but down, he has gotten a few placements in top 8. YL's a character of strengths and weaknesses who gets worse the more people figure him out. I got 9th out of 119 people early in Ultimate's lifespan going solo YL and never placed that high again. There are several things that make YL significantly worse once people learn the MU. 1st, all his projectiles lose to hitboxes. His zoning gets a lot worse once people learn they can power through projectiles with dash attack or long lasting aerials. The latter especially applies to intercepting YL offstage. 2nd, YL's combos get less consistent when the opponent DIs out. Suddenly YL is missing a lot of things which would be guaranteed like ground spin attack>Uair once the opponent picks up on this. When you see YL with amazing chains like fire arrow>fire arrow>Uair it's only because the opponent isn't DIing correctly. The reason you never see YLs Dtilt>jump> spin attack anymore is opponents frequently fall out of it. 3rd YL has a linear recovery that loses to disjoints. It's not bad but not good either. He has once of the shortest tethers in the game. Although spin attack has good drift its hitboxes are pretty small and only really beat out characters with bad disjoints. It's very easy from someone like Lucina to simply drop down and Bair him, which probably spells death. YL will randomly drop the bomb he's holding if he's hit, which is stupid. 4th, although YL has an amazing neutral and good damage output he dies at a much lower % than most of his opponents. His kill power is among the worst in the game. There are a ton of MUs where it seems like YL should have an advantage but the discrepancy between when he dies and the opponent dies is so great that they end up being even. Because this he doesn't win any MUs by wide margins.

(Edit) Also YL's MUs are very stage dependent. He rules big stages vs 95% of the cast like PS2 and TnC but he gets significantly worse on small stages and stages without platforms like FD. Bans and counterpicking can really screw YL over.

However, I think that also struggles with a lot of the same issues and he lacks many of YL's great tools. TL's advantages over YL are he's slightly faster in the air, slightly heavier, kills slightly earlier, spin attack on the ground kills and is faster which gives him a better OoS game, Usmash is one hit so it's safer on wiff, Utilt has low % combos and bombs explode when hit so they can beat out attacks (YL's bombs bounce off hitboxes).

YL's advantages are: his f4 sex kick Nair is an amazing combo breaker and much better than TL's. While TL is forced to use bombs for combos, YL can combo off all his projectiles and Dtilt. YL has an amazing landing game with only 6f landing lag on Nair, Fair and Bair. He can landing combo Bair1 and Fair1 into Usmash or Dtilt to extend his combos and Zair into DA or Usmash. Dair doesn't auto fast fall which makes it great at covering YL's landings. YL's frame data is slightly better. YL's damage output is better. YL's Uair is f5 where TL's is F11 so YL has combos like Dthrow>Uair TL lacks. YL's less floaty which also helps his landings. YL's bombs have shorter fuses which makes them better for saving YL's recoveries. YL's basically a character with slightly worse stats but a much better toolkit than TL. Overall I'd say YL is still the best Link.

 

[Rizen]

Things are happening. Bruho won Mash Harder with Kazuya and KRool including beating Zomba in a grands reset with pure Krool. From what I saw he used both characters pretty evenly, which is about as good of a result as you're going to get with Krool. Also Lumonosity Makes Moves Miami is happening.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Been a while since this thread got updated. A few major events have happened this past month, so I want to list them here.

DELTA 9 (S Tier, 380 Entrants) (October 27th)
1st: Miya
2nd: Raru
3rd: Ryopei
4th: Shuton
5th: Toriguri
5th: TamaPDaifuku
7th: M0tsunabE
7th: Yamanaction
9th: Lunamado
9th: Sin
9th: Snow
9th: KEN
13th: Fui
13th: kept
13th: uame
13th: alice
17th: Eik
17th: Gackt
17th: tameigo
17th: Gorioka
17th: Lax
17th: Shinnnnnji
17th: Marcos
17th: Ocha
25th: Glutonny
25th: ElleGo
25th: Akakikusu
25th: Shion
25th: Ari
25th: Kurofune
25th: chicken
25th: Rarikkusu
33rd: Kebanga
33rd: Ezs
33rd: Leaf
33rd: Gachipi
33rd: Tet.
33rd: Karaage
33rd: Kyou
33rd: T.earth
33rd: Kisha
33rd: Sumaho
33rd: MairudonaH.O
33rd: Tsubaki
33rd: Masami
33rd: K.O. Kou
33rd: sssr
33rd: Noi


Luminosity Makes Moves Miami 2024 (S Tier, 365 Entrants) (Steve banned, similar to past LMM events) (November 1st-3rd)
1st: Tweek
2nd: Sonix
3rd: Light
4th: MkLeo
5th: Maister
5th: Wrath
7th: Riddles
7th: Lima
9th: Syrup
9th: Miya
9th: Skeleton
9th: SHADIC
13th: Jahzz0
13th: Zomba
13th: loaf
13th: fawn
17th: Beastly
17th: Atomic
17th: BeastModePaul
17th: Raflow
17th: Pacha
17th: Lui$
17th: Anarchy
17th: MuteAce
25th: Peabnut
25th: Dany
25th: Spritzy
25th: Marss
25th: Epic_Gabriel
25th: Kola
25th: elijimin
25th: Seel
33rd: Deathspade
33rd: GuyGuy
33rd: Sonido
33rd: NoTag
33rd: Amir
33rd: WebbJP
33rd: Kobe
33rd: BassMage
33rd: omega
33rd: Chugs
33rd: Chase
33rd: Dominator
33rd: firefly
33rd: Goblin
33rd: AwDaSea
33rd: ChunkyKong


The Throne II (A Tier, 16 Entrant Invitational) (November 8th-10th)
1st: Sparg0
2nd: Light
3rd: MkLeo
4th: Hurt
5th: Tweek
5th: Candle
7th: Zackray
7th: Rimu
9th: Kola
9th: Tilde
9th: Riddles
9th: MuteAce
13th: SHADIC
13th: ChunkyKong
13th: Marss
13th: drybie


Don't Park on the Grass 2024 (A+ Tier, 344 Entrants) (November 16th-17th)
1st: Sparg0
2nd: Miya
3rd: Lui$
4th: KEN
5th: Shuton
5th: Raru
7th: MVD
7th: Snow
9th: JDV
9th: MFA
9th: MKBigBoss
9th: Rarikkusu
13th: Tarik
13th: Lemmon
13th: Opsine
13th: Ludo
17th: Raiyihn
17th: Big D
17th: Tora
17th: Monte
17th: Ouch!?
17th: Abe
17th: X'avier
17th: Seesaw
25th: Deathspade
25th: BassMage
25th: embo_z
25th: Dtier
25th: Mio!
25th: Scend
25th: Peace!2
25th: Domnique


I think Sparg0 and Miya at this point has secured the #1 and #2 spots, respectively, for this season.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Two more notable events, and I believe this is more interesting when it comes to a character discussion aspect.

LACS Rivals (8 Player Invitational, B+ Tier)
1st: Miya
2nd: Glutonny
3rd: Light
4th: Sparg0
5th: SHADIC
5th: Tweek
7th: Marss
7th: Lui$


UltCore Fourth (367 Entrants, S Tier)
1st: Raru
2nd: Doramigi
3rd: Yoshidora
4th: acola
5th: Hurt
5th: Ryuoh
7th: alice
7th: TamaPDaifuku
9th: Jogibu
9th: DieGorou
9th: Masha
9th: Snow
13th: Tsubaki
13th: Nyonoknb
13th: Rarikkusu
13th: Navy
17th: Reno
17th: Metara
17th: Akakikusu
17th: Shirayuki
17th: Toriguri
17th: Lapi
17th: Asimo
17th: 33Peranbox
25th: Sidarezakura
25th: Yone_pi
25th: Carmelo
25th: Umeki
25th: Noi
25th: Mokumoku
25th: M0tsunabE
25th: Mark
33rd: CLAW
33rd: Furararamen
33rd: MildnaH.O
33rd: Tsukasa
33rd: DIO
33rd: Futari no Kiwami Ah~!
33rd: Onjoji
33rd: yoko#
33rd: Raki
33rd: Omuatsu
33rd: Ryopei
33rd: Dynamite
33rd: Lvl. 1
33rd: Midorun
33rd: Penguins
33rd: Karaage


Back at Sumabato SP 47 at May 2024, Raru became the first ever Luigi player to win a major in any Smash game. He later won Sumabato SP 50 at August.
And now here at UltCore Fourth, Raru has become the first ever Luigi player to win a supermajor in any Smash game.

So, uhhhhh... could Luigi be top tier?

Also, this event has prob solidified acola within the top 5, but he is definitely not getting #1 this season.

 

[Rizen]

^ is a very inconsistent character. He certainly has the tools to win big but he can lose hard just as easily. Something people never talk about is Luigi's recovery. It's genuinely bad. His airspeed is atrocious and his sideB doesn't go very far without a misfire and has a lot of lag. In many ways Luigi's a sitting duck offstage. I'd put him in lower high tier.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Brawler+Swordfighter got 9th at Delta? Interesting gotta check that out.

Tweek losing to Miya at LACS in a clearly winning matchup due to not being sufficiently prepared and crumbling more than getting figured out throughout the set though. That was annoying to watch. And then Gluto who puts up a much better fight -given what he has to work with- because he's far more professional than Tweek loses to Miya in grands because Wario sucks. Great.

 

[Hippieslayer]

^ is a very inconsistent character. He certainly has the tools to win big but he can lose hard just as easily. Something people never talk about is Luigi's recovery. It's genuinely bad. His airspeed is atrocious and his sideB doesn't go very far without a misfire and has a lot of lag. In many ways Luigi's a sitting duck offstage. I'd put him in lower high tier.

How do you think he compares in consistency to Kazuya? A little while back I thought he might end up better Kazuya. Because I thought he was more consistent and slightly harder to just camp because he does have tools to approach. But you make a strong point against that. Recovery is important.

People have pretty varied estimations of Kazuya in my experience.

 

[Rizen]

How do you think he compares in consistency to Kazuya? A little while back I thought he might end up better Kazuya. Because I thought he was more consistent and slightly harder to just camp because he does have tools to approach. But you make a strong point against that. Recovery is important.

People have pretty varied estimations of Kazuya in my experience.

I think Kazuya's a lot more consistent than Luigi. There are several reasons for this. Kazuya has much better survival ability; he's heavier and has a better recovery. I also think his wind god fist is a better touch of death combo starter than Luigi's grab. Kazuya just has a lot more going for him than Luigi. He has a reflector, his upB doesn't freefall. He gets powered up command grabs. In Luigi's favor, he does have much faster close quarter combat but when you get zoned as hard as he does it's less of a factor.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tweek losing to Miya at LACS in a clearly winning matchup due to not being sufficiently prepared and crumbling more than getting figured out throughout the set though. That was annoying to watch. And then Gluto who puts up a much better fight -given what he has to work with- because he's far more professional than Tweek loses to Miya in grands because Wario sucks. Great.

Tweek also had it in game 5, but he started to autopilot hard in disadvantage during the second stock, allowing Miya to make one of his trademark comebacks.
Also given how close grand's is, the loss isn't really calked down to "Wario sucks"; it was simply a close duel between two top players.
Speaking of Glutto, it is unfort that he hasn't really had much opportunity to attend many major tournaments this season, but it is nice to see that he is still capable of taking sets off of the best in the world, taking one vs Sparg0, one vs Miya (bracket reset), and twice vs Light (2nd set featured an absolute robbery at game 5, trademark of Wario).

People have pretty varied estimations of Kazuya in my experience.

Kazuya opinions among top players are all over the place lately. Seen some put him outside the top 15, while I have seen some put him top 5.
My opinion is more of the former than the latter; character has slipped off this year in lieu of other characters currently ranked below him, and Riddles (the main guy giving him significant placements in high level events) has been less active in Ultimate in favor of SF6, but Kaz is still undeniably very good.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sumabato SP 53 (A Tier, 359 Entrants)

1st: Raki
2nd: Taikei
3rd: Doramigi
4th: Navy
5th: Tsuna
5th: Rarikkusu
7th: Toatti
7th: Shion
9th: Karaage
9th: 33Peranbox
9th: DieGorou
9th: Furararamen
13th: Lvl. 1
13th: Niyae
13th: DEAR
13th: Snow
17th: Nyonoknb
17th: Kaninabe
17th: Gorioka
17th: Tas
17th: Raru
17th: Shirayuki
17th: MASA
17th: Nizemamo


This was a wild tournament, with upsets all over the place. Doramigi and Navy were the only two players seeded for top 8 to actually get top 8.
Raki is a Steve/Kazuya dual-main rising star player that has always done solidly well, but never to this extent.
Taikei is another rising star player that has, at this point, solidified himself as the 2nd best Sonic player in Japan.

This is also the first time since Tarik's King Con performance (Feb 2024) that a Greninja player got top 8 in a major, and the first time since Kameme's Umebura SP 10 performance (Jan 2024) that a Sora player got top 8 in a major.

Also, I find it very funny that in one of the only times in recent memory that Raru underperformed in a major event, a different Luigi player got top 8 instead.

 

[Hippieslayer]

tweek bowser jr inc?

 

[$.A.F.]

I know it’s no longer a bold take anymore with how well Raru has been doing this past season, but it’s really been Navy and Luugi’s performances as of late that have really made me look at in a different light. This character is absolutely disgusting and I’ve started to really become convinced of his high tier heck maybe even top 20 (though I hesitate on that) status. I know people have cited Kazuya as basically a better Luigi but as the meta has shaped and moved on I’d argue it’s vice versa at least in the current moment. Luigi has only gotten better whereas Kazuya has fallen ever lower since his peak. He might not have a move as disgusting as EWGF or the stray hit kill potential, but his combo trees are arguably even more versatile, his frame data is absolutely disgusting, and I’d argue in spite of his worse recovery, his combo breaking tools and aerials give him a good enough time landing that his disadvantage is pretty comparable if not better. Besides, he’s a more consistent tournament character execution wise even as the Kazuya’s have optimized more and more. After all one missed input from a Kazuya takes them from spamming an unpunishable neutral tool on your shield and being minus enough that Greninja can punish.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I know. I can't decide on what I think about it. I keep comparing them in my head. People who should know way more than me or us are also all over the place on Kazuya as has already been stated.

My instinct says Luigi will last longer than Kazuya/be harder to just adjust to, Luigi seems more flexible in general too with less totally unwinnable MU's but the opposite can easily be argued. Both characters and their counterplay are still evolving.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Coinbox IRL 2 (B+ Invitational)

LCQ (178 Entrants; Top 5 Qualifies)
1st: Syrup
2nd: Jahzz0
3rd: Endothia
4th: Oolong
5th: Yeast (won tiebreaker vs Willy)
6th: Willy
7th: Peanut
7th: Save
9th: Chugs
9th: Justinbyleth
9th: Spicy
9th: deliboid


Main Event (16 Entrants)
1st: Syrup
2nd: Shuton
3rd: Shinymark
4th: Onin
5th: Wrath
5th: Sonix
7th: TM7_ZAP
7th: Jahzz0
9th: crepe salee
9th: Lima
9th: ESAM
9th: Bruho
13th: Yeast
13th: Oolong
13th: Riddles
13th: Endothia

Syrup really went from "LCQ winner", to "only LCQ qualifier to not drown in RR pools", to "winner of the whole tournament" in one fell swoop.
Def the 2nd best Steve player at the moment, and also the 2nd best Ness player.

This tournament features Onin defeating Sonix 3-2, preventing a reverse 3-0, marking the first time in over 2 years that Sonix has lost an offline set to Steve.
It also features yet another loss to Shuton in bracket, showing that Shuton may be another bracket demon for Sonix to overcome.

 

[$.A.F.]

Here’s a list of every character that won a major in 2024 from what I can find. I might be missing a few secondaries/co-mains:

And every Major Winner: Miya, Sparg0, Tweek, Acola, Hurt, Raru, Gluttony, Light, SHADIC, Zomba, MkLeo, MuteAce, ShinyMark, Doramigi, TamaPDaifuku, Shuton, Asimo, crepe salee, Kola, Raki.

I’m honestly really surprised at just how diverse this year has been at top level. I didn’t really start following competitive again until pretty late in the year after a multi year break but from what I heard it was just a Steve/Sonic/G&W filled hellscape and the game was dead. But it really has been quite the opposite in my experience. I was more excited watching the game than I’ve been since 2019. It felt fresh and new and maybe that was just because the meta had changed so much while I was away and it’d wear off but the data seems to back it. The game is in a pretty healthy place in my estimation. It’s extremely competitive and it doesn’t feel dominated by one player or character. I’m excited for what 2025 will bring.

 

[aSMa]

Lately I've been seeing a few tier lists circulating around here and there, and most of them are placing characters in vastly different places. Some have one character in S tier, while another may have that same character in C or D tier. As we are many, we can have a more collective opinion on where certain characters should be placed within a tier list. Tier lists do help competitive players, and I didn't want this to get lost in the general forum, so I decided that I would be able to communicate with the pros here. I myself am not a pro, but I do wish to become one. Eventually. That's gonna take a while. ANYWAY, back on topic. Since I haven't seen anywhere else on this site where a tier list is being created, I decided to get it started.

I'll just state where I believe certain characters should be to begin with, and others may leave comments putting other characters in and make suggestion on where other character should be placed within the tier list. That being said, if someone should decide to move a character's position in the tier list or add a character to a certain tier, a reason would need to be given explaining why they believe that the character should be in that tier.

Let's first just place the characters in the tiers, and then we can decide what order they should be in. Here are my opinions on where a few characters should be placed in the tier list. Due to the fact that I am not a professional player, and that I have yet to unlock all the characters, I will only be listing a few characters. Please understand.

A Tier
- Donkey Kong
While I have seen the other tier lists place him in B or even C tier, I believe that he should be higher up. If any character, even the heavyweights, are above 50% damage, he is able to blast them off the screen. To do this, one simply needs to have a fully charged Neutral B ready. All that is needed after that is to get the opponent around 45%. Once they are around there, Side B them into the ground and unleash the fully charged Neutral B. It's a KO unless the opponent hits something on their flight off the screen, or if they are launched too far away from the edge of the stage.

- Sonic
Our blue blur of a hedgehog should either be in high A tier or low S tier. He's the fastest fighter in the game, and he can punish mistakes really easily and even get out of being punished due to that speed. Sonic is also able to rack up damage really quickly with his ability to come out of his Side B and Down B and start performing aerials.

B Tier
- King K. Rool
Though he is able to bring it on like Donkey Kong(see what I did there?), and his down throw and down tilt do the same thing as DK's Side B, he isn't able to KO opponents as easily as DK can. He does have the best recovery of all the heavies, though, which keeps him pretty high on the tier list. His Neutral B can also be very satisfying when you are able to hit the opponent twice with the same cannon ball.

- Ridley
He's a great fighter. The command grab, the sweet spot on the Down B, and his inclusion in the game is just a big thing as well. Though he has all those things, and is good at putting on the damage, the sweet spot is rarely going to hit in the heat of battle, and if the command grab is missed, it can be punished so easily. His Neutral B also isn't that great, and his recover can be messed up when in the heat of battle. The directional input on it makes it so that if your timing is off, you could go down instead of up. It's basically Fox, Falco, and Wolf's recover, but it takes longer and is easier to punish. He stays in B tier though because of the damage he can put on in the right scenario, and that he is difficult to send flying off the screen.

C Tier
- Pit
Not much really to say about Pit. He's the same he's always been. Not bad, but not good either. If used correctly, he can be good, but I mainly find myself not using any of the specials except for the Side B.

D Tier
- Kirby
Though I love my favorite pink puffball, he just isn't that good. I rarely use his Neutral B because I'm in the heat of battle and just don't have time to suck up the opponent. Even if I do suck them up and take their Neutral B, I rarely use that because most of the Neutral B's take time to charge up, which is something a light character doesn't have time to do. He always needs to be on the move so that he is less easy to hit, and he is usually KO'd before he even reaches 100%.

- Pichu
Why on EARTH have I seen this guy up in high B tier consistently?! Over half of his moves damage himself, and since he's a lightweight, each percentage point is precious! Unless there's something I've been missing about this worse clone of Pickachu, everyone else is way overestimating his potential. I mean, there are a few pros out there who play Pichu, but he is mainly avoided because, well, he sucks. He should either be in low D tier or somewhere in E or F tier, depending on how low we wanna go.

Well, that's my input. Please feel free to comment on where you believe certain characters should go and provide a reason why so that all may understand your reasoning. There might be a reason that Pichu is consistently in high B tier, but since the other tier lists do not provide a reason as to why, he seems misplaced big time. I hope our wide community can fill in a tier list that will stand the test of time and updates. Yelp, that's that! I hope this works.

DK, King K, Ridley are combo food. They're also extremely slow which causes them to get caught in more combos. IMO, no heavy can be above C.
And the thing for pit is lack of experience with the character shouldnt change your thoughts based off that. Pit is more so a low B.
Kirby is correct.
Pichu is much better than you think. Especially if you use their up-air or up-smash which do not damage themselves. The character is fast and has a small hitbox, which causes them to be a light to justify it. Pichu is a solid C only because of the moves that damage him, but his down-air spiking so easily and you just being able to recover right after as if nothing happened in insane.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I think the Meta is more or less fine except that we are seeing more and more Steve's and Sonics? Wrath has leveled up. Even Hurt has a Sonic too that is imprecise but still dangerous. Seeing more Steve alts too. I think the smash scene rather than whine and burying their heads in the sand and going "well the next game which we have no idea when its coming out will save us" should take a lot at how other sports have dealt with lameness successfully. Rather than outright bans you can encourage exciting sets with a pot bonus for something like "set of the tournament". There are more things you can do too definitely. But the scene is rarely willing to sacrifice what it perceives as its integrity even if it would lead to a higher level sport in the end via increased growth which will attract more talent and motivate players. I'm worried about the development of the Meta.

About Kirby.. that character has sauce but trash mobility all around, and that always loses out in the end. Mkleo calling Kirby top tier was so whack. I don't see Pichu being all that good either. Has sauce but other characters have more and are not super light do and do not damage themselves. Being small is great but Pichu's horizontal mobility is not good which means they kinda need to use their neutral-b and self damage to get started.

 

[Rizen]

I'm bored so I'm going to throw out some hot takes. I think is the worst character in the game, followed by and then is third worst.

Sword Fighter is really bad. The devs tried to make him a jack of all trades but he ends up being worse at any specific thing than the characters who specialize in it. His zoning is really underwhelming, his swordplay is slow and not particularly powerful or oppressive. He's just an all around underwhelming character.

Everyone knows why Mac is bad. I've been watching a lot of games by Peanut and Major, the best Mac and Ganon players, respectively. With Ganon's terrible recovery it's hard to put him above anyone but Mac's recovery is almost as bad and he's a lot lighter. Mac gets gimped or even outright KOed so easily I think he has overall worse survivability than Ganon. Mac's KO punch gets hit out of him so easily that he rarely lands it. A lot of MUs seem hopeless for Mac.

Ganon's still really bad but he can be more oppressive than the other two characters. His attacks are huge and hit super hard so he's actually really scary in advantage. The meta is leaning more toward strong advantages than strong neutrals: look at DK's rise.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I think Swordfighter is a cool character (when you use the type of setup Miya used, when trying to play him as a mainly projectile throwing zoner thats just why why would you ever do that?) that does cool stuff but is just totally undertuned when it comes to their normals. Yeah some of the moves have sauce. D-tilt in particular. But the kit doesn't flow together. You can beat people with swordfighter who do not know what they are up against. But once they figure it out its so obvious that you are fighting an uphill battle even vs very mid characters.

The character needs a bigger sword, there is too much startup on their moves (dair and uair have ridiculous startup, and so does f-tilt and u-tilt). Fair should not have the landing lag that it does and you should be able to do fair 1 or 2 into combos or kills earlier and more reliably because if you let swordfighter hit you with that it should cost you. They also shouldn't have to sacrifice recovery in order to have a decent OOS option. Alternatively the Link like UP-B should not be trash in the air where it is super easy to fall out of. I mean it will happen a lot even vs people who aren't even SDI'ng. That is such BS. Moreover: F-tilt and F-smash should have arcing hitboxes on top of less startup.

Still I think Swordfighter for all their Flaws is better than Ganon. And perhaps some of the other really bad characters. They are really bad though. This is despite having a lot of things going for them. Nice burst options. Good projectiles. Decent enough mobility. Etc. It's just that certain normals are so blatantly undertuned it is ridiculous and these normals prevent the Kit from flowing together. I can at least enjoy swordfighter in teams where tornado becomes annoying and not just something you should never really get hit by unless you are recovering and out of options or getting off the ledge.

Its a shame. I think its a unique yet classic smash character that doesn't have any of the DLC BS. I hope Nintendo doesn't cut the Mii's. Hoping Nintendo keeps them around to sell skins. But I am biased. Swordfighter is probably my second most played character, I've really tried to make it work, but it just doesn't vs people who understand the matchup and are not going to fall for non combos like d-throw>uair that only work when the opponent does not DI and respects the burst options. I like characters that do not have some crazy sauce they can bring out to just obliterate their opponent but who can still win by being flexible and playing smart and unpredictably.

My fav way to start a game with swordfighter on small battlefield vs a random is to run of the platform immediately use the ike side-b to fly into the opponent and through them, follow up with an utilt that hits behind swordfighter, then turn around and grab and do a d-throw into whatever aerial seems like the best one for keeping the pressure up. But that doesn't work vs people who know and respect the burst, and many can probably get out of that sequence easily even if they get hit by the initial burst option. Either way d-tilt into attack cancelled bair is also nice at low percentages. Getting someone offstage and immediately going for a dair gimp can work. You have a lot of stuff you can do with Swordfighter, but you are just undertuned and you have to be really creative and keep on surprising your opponent and you can only do that for so long unless there is a large skill gap or they are playing characters which Swordfighter happens to be able to **** on pretty hard (of which there are not many in my experience).

IMO Mac's recovery is considerably better than Ganondorfs, and there's a gap between him and Ganon in terms of viability that is pretty big.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Smash Awesome! (S Tier, 729 Entrants)

1st: Hurt
2nd: Shuton
3rd: acola
4th: Akakikusu
5th: uame
5th: Kaninabe
7th: Carmelo
7th: Miya
9th: Lv. 1
9th: Gachipi
9th: Tea
9th: chicken
13th: Fui
13th: 33Peranbox
13th: Karaage
13th: Metara
17th: Nyonoknb
17th: No.8
17th: Tet.
17th: Umeki
17th: M0tsunabE
17th: Kyou
17th: Kurofune
17th: Tsubaki
25th: Gackt
25th: Sin
25th: Shirayuki
25th: Lax
25th: Onjoji
25th: Kebanga
25th: syadau (it took me forever to find the SmashWiki player name)
25th: Nizemamo
33rd: Ryuoh
33rd: Atelier
33rd: MASA
33rd: Noi
33rd: Shion
33rd: Huto
33rd: Toriguri
33rd: tameigo
33rd: Abadango
33rd: KEN
33rd: LemozonA
33rd: Maipan
33rd: Riteshia
33rd: Rimu
33rd: Lea
33rd: sssr


Hurt got his revenge on acola for his loss vs him in UltCore Fourth, by double eliminating him in a similar vein to Kagaribi 12. Unlike said tournament, Hurt ended up winning this whole event by beating Shuton in a game 10 grand finals set, after losing to him 3-0 in winner's finals. Hurt underperformed slightly this season in comparison to the previous one, so this event win is absolutely a massive dub for him.

Miya unfortunately had a rough draw this tournament, losing very early to a ROB player named sssr, forcing to go on a long loser's run that had him beat 7 opponents in a row, before ultimately falling to Akakikusu in a close game 5 set where his Steve almost reverse 3-0'd him.

Btw, this is the first tournament result post I have posted without any SmashWiki page reference, so it took me a long while to get this post together.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Smash Awesome! (S Tier, 729 Entrants)

1st: Hurt
2nd: Shuton
3rd: acola
4th: Akakikusu
5th: uame
5th: Kaninabe
7th: Carmelo
7th: Miya
9th: Lv. 1
9th: Gachipi
9th: Tea
9th: chicken
13th: Fui
13th: 33Peranbox
13th: Karaage
13th: Metara
17th: Nyonoknb
17th: No.8
17th: Tet.
17th: Umeki
17th: M0tsunabE
17th: Kyou
17th: Kurofune
17th: Tsubaki
25th: Gackt
25th: Sin
25th: Shirayuki
25th: Lax
25th: Onjoji
25th: Kebanga
25th: syadau (it took me forever to find the SmashWiki player name)
25th: Nizemamo
33rd: Ryuoh
33rd: Atelier
33rd: MASA
33rd: Noi
33rd: Shion
33rd: Huto
33rd: Toriguri
33rd: tameigo
33rd: Abadango
33rd: KEN
33rd: LemozonA
33rd: Maipan
33rd: Riteshia
33rd: Rimu
33rd: Lea
33rd: sssr


Hurt got his revenge on acola for his loss vs him in UltCore Fourth, by double eliminating him in a similar vein to Kagaribi 12. Unlike said tournament, Hurt ended up winning this whole event by beating Shuton in a game 10 grand finals set, after losing to him 3-0 in winner's finals. Hurt underperformed slightly this season in comparison to the previous one, so this event win is absolutely a massive dub for him.

Miya unfortunately had a rough draw this tournament, losing very early to a ROB player named sssr, forcing to go on a long loser's run that had him beat 7 opponents in a row, before ultimately falling to Akakikusu in a close game 5 set where his Steve almost reverse 3-0'd him.

Btw, this is the first tournament result post I have posted without any SmashWiki page reference, so it took me a long while to get this post together.

This is actually part of the 2025.1 LumiRank season (and the first tournament of this new season), not the 2024.2 season that started from Kowloon with Kagaribi 12.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is actually part of the 2025.1 LumiRank season (and the first tournament of this new season), not the 2024.2 season that started from Kowloon with Kagaribi 12.

Ah ok, good to know.

Anyways, another notable tournament just wrapped up.

GSM (A tier; 171 Entrants)
1st: Lima
2nd: Doramigi
3rd: Raflow
4th: Sisqui
5th: Asimo
5th: Snow
7th: Ball
7th: Glutonny
9th: SHADIC
9th: NaetorU
9th: KID
9th: crepe salee
13th: Ling
13th: Supahsemmie
13th: Raarchyor
13th: Raru

This is Lima's first ever major win in Ultimate. I am also pretty sure this is the first time K. Rool has ever achieved top 8 at a major.

 

[Rizen]

Good for Hurt. Also Shuton's really been looking like a top ten player lately, even though he hasn't won anything.

IMO Mac's recovery is considerably better than Ganondorfs, and there's a gap between him and Ganon in terms of viability that is pretty big.

The only part I strongly disagree with is this. Mac's recovery is absolutely terrible. I've seen him be gimped by Luigi's grab projectile. Like here he gets hit by Villager's Nair and dies at 60%. Sure Ganon has the worst recovery in the game but Mac's is only a shade better. I'm pretty sure he can't use sideB more than once until landing, even if he's hit. His upB and sideB are much shorter in the air than on the ground. His upB is also worse than Ganon's in terms of recovery, although it is the best OoS option in the game with frame 1 armor on the ground and it kills. Some MUs look terrible.
Mac's a really bad character. Peanut's MU chart says he only has two winning MUs at +.5 vs Plant and ICs. Then he has a handful of even MUs and the rest are losing, some really badly.

 

[Hippieslayer]

But he did win a major at least iirc, peak mac looks so much more viable than peak ganon to me, but I am no expert on either character.

 

[Rizen]

But he did win a major at least iirc, peak mac looks so much more viable than peak ganon to me, but I am no expert on either character.

At this point in the tier list it's really comparing moldy apples to rotten oranges because they're both garbage.