Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

That is one of the wonkiest character lineups I have ever seen. I need to know what his Olimar did, cause I am interested.

He went ROB, Olimar and Kazuya in the pools phase.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Opinions on Meta Knight? I just feel like Leo kind of matchup checked Japan. They don't have that good a Byleth and I don't know how good their best Metaknight is but they probably do not have one that plays like Leos. So its like he matchup checked Japan using both characters and himself as a player.

I have no idea where Metaknight stands among all the good but not top characters. Leos MK was very hype but its clear Leo is still figuring things out with the char to a certain degree. Is this another case of Japanese players losing to rushdown?

The loss to Hurt sucked but Leo looked better than his Lumirank going by the entirety of his performance.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Opinions on Meta Knight? I just feel like Leo kind of matchup checked Japan. They don't have that good a Byleth and I don't know how good their best Metaknight is but they probably do not have one that plays like Leos. So its like he matchup checked Japan using both characters and himself as a player.

I have no idea where Metaknight stands among all the good but not top characters. Leos MK was very hype but its clear Leo is still figuring things out with the char to a certain degree. Is this another case of Japanese players losing to rushdown?

The loss to Hurt sucked but Leo looked better than his Lumirank going by the entirety of his performance.

Abadango used to be their best Meta Knight by far and had the best result of any Meta Knight ever, getting 2nd at Kagaribi 8. This was back in 2022 and was the same tournament that was Miya's first ever major win. Then Abadango couldn't get those results anymore, tried playing different characters, still wasn't getting those results, and retired from Smash entirely. Now I think their best Meta Knight is Metara, who was ranked top 150 for the 2023 season on LumiRank, but unranked for the 2024.1 season.

I don't know if they were getting matchup checked by Meta Knight or not, because some of the veterans would've played against both Abadango and Metara. As for Byleth, they do have Reno and Rizeasu, who are both great players, but those two players are not as consistent as Leo is with that character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sumabato SP 51 (S or S+ Tier event)

1st: Asimo
2nd: acola
3rd: Akakikusu
4th: Maister
5th: Yoshidora
5th: Fui
7th: Ryuoh
7th: Raru
9th: Jogibu
9th: alice
9th: Hurt
9th: Snow
13th: MASA
13th: Toriguri
13th: Luminous
13th: Tsuna


I was going to say that this is the first time Ryu in Ultimate has won a major tournament (let alone a supermajor), but it turns out that has never won a major tournament either, so this is the first time across both Smash games that Ryu has won a major tournament.

Must be the powerup of Kusanagi's recent major tournament win in SF6.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Results for Luminosity Invitational: Back 2 School (A+ Tier)

1. Kola
2. Sparg0
3. Shuton
4. Zomba
5. MkLeo
5. Asimo
7. ShinyMark
7. Light
9. Tweek
9. Glutonny
9. Maister
9. Marss
13. TM7_ZAP
13. Dabuz
13. Sonix
13. SHADIC

's our boy. Cool storylines this tournament, Kola won a major, which hasn't happened since CEO 2021, Sparg0 made a very impressive losers run after a poor pools performance, MkLeo beat most of his bracket demons, and Shuton and Asimo are showing consistency. Light also made his first top 8 in a while so that's nice to see.

 

[Rizen]

Congrats to Kola and Asimo for proving they can win against the big boys. I just want to point out all top three winners used sword characters. Swords are extremely powerful in the meta. Another thing to note is this is by far Sonix's worst performance. Is he falling off? Also it's been a long time since Steve has won anything major. It seems like people are getting better at dealing with him.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Congrats to Kola and Asimo for proving they can win against the big boys. I just want to point out all top three winners used sword characters. Swords are extremely powerful in the meta. Another thing to note is this is by far Sonix's worst performance. Is he falling off? Also it's been a long time since Steve has won anything major. It seems like people are getting better at dealing with him.

To be fair, Sonix's bracket felt constructed to give him the hardest time, as he was put up with a couple of his biggest demons in pools (Shinymark & Light) into immediately fighting Sparg0's Roy for 13th.

For Steve, with the exception of the major win I am going to mention in a sec, the character hasn't won anything major in a long while mainly cause acola isn't quite winning events as often as he used to be. He is getting top placements incredibly consistently, but not quite getting that gold. Due note that crêpe salée did recently become the 3rd ever Steve player to win a major, winning UFA 2024 with mostly solo Steve (only used secondaries in pools), so there is that.

 

[Rizen]

Due note that crêpe salée did recently become the 3rd ever Steve player to win a major, winning UFA 2024 with mostly solo Steve (only used secondaries in pools), so there is that.

Oh yeah; I forgot about that.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I would really like to blame Sonix placement on people becoming better at fighting Sonic and the character not being as good as he seems. But I do not think that is the case.

It was just poor bracket luck. And Sonix crumbling under the pressure of it and not playing his best as a consequence; Light showing up for the first time in a while and then having to fight the best player in the world for 13th place. Sonix has gotta have some mentality issues after his 2nd place streak. He looks like he does when you look at the player cams.

I do think Sonic could potentially have some issues vs zoners with good recoveries. Chars who can force Sonic to approach and who live for a long time while being able to kill Sonic relatively early. Capitancit0 was doing well vs Sonix for a while before he started losing their many sets. And thats with Mii Gunner who is a mid tier char. There's gotta be some better char who fits the description? Or perhaps there is not.

Maybe its better to just pick a fast swordie char who is a top tier and force approaches with horizontal mobility. Or Corrin whose 360 hitbitbox nair makes it hard for Sonic to approach. You run the risk of getting gimped if you play Corrin or Roy or Aegis or Fox. But you get access to better characters who are relatively easy to play because they just require fundamentals and have simple gameplans (would not say Fox is easy tho, if he was there would be more Foxes at top level) That seems to be the case right now.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Been a bit since the last post here. A couple of major tournaments happened recently, and here they are.

Sumabato SP 52 (337 Entrants, A+)
1st: acola
2nd: Asimo
3rd: Raru
4th: Yoshidora
5th: MASA
5th: Raki
7th: Yone_pi
7th: Umeki
9th: Toriguri
9th: KEN
9th: Ryuoh
9th: Nyonoknb
13th: alice
13th: Kome
13th: Gorioka
13th: Fui
17th: Furararamen
17th: Kuroponzu
17th: Shion
17th: kept
17th: Jogibu
17th: Karaage
17th: Rarikkusu
17th: Rimu

Another day in the office for acola, seizing his revenge on Asimo for the previous Sumabato SP.


Cirque 4 (145 Entrants, A+)
1st: Miya
2nd: Lima
3rd: Light
4th: Sparg0
5th: SHADIC
5th: Tea
7th: Peabnut
7th: Tweek
9th: Kola
9th: TM7_ZAP
9th: Goblin
9th: Doramigi
13th: BeastModePaul
13th: Lui$
13th: Dominator
13th: jBoneX
17th: Osh9
17th: Aaron
17th: Epic_Gabriel
17th: Dany
17th: ChocoTaco
17th: Hurt
17th: Snow
17th: Zomba (DQ'd)

I may be mistaken, but I think this is Miya's first major win in a NA tournament, which is nice considering his not-so-stellar history in NA events.


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With the year coming close to an end, I am expecting the start of next year to feature the next iteration of the official tier list for Ultimate. It has been 3 years since the game last got patched, but this year still features quite a bit of meta/character shifts since the previous year.

For reference, this is the latest tier list published February 2024.

Since I want to raise some discussion to this mostly inactive thread, so I am wondering from folks here on what should we expect in terms of character movements for the next tier list. Obvious ones includes Corrin and Bayo rising up the ranks, which is something we have known for many months at this point, but I'd like to hear stuff for other characters too. I'll give my two cents later down the line.

 

[Cheryl~]

Been a bit since the last post here. A couple of major tournaments happened recently, and here they are.

Sumabato SP 52 (337 Entrants, A+)
1st: acola
2nd: Asimo
3rd: Raru
4th: Yoshidora
5th: MASA
5th: Raki
7th: Yone_pi
7th: Umeki
9th: Toriguri
9th: KEN
9th: Ryuoh
9th: Nyonoknb
13th: alice
13th: Kome
13th: Gorioka
13th: Fui
17th: Furararamen
17th: Kuroponzu
17th: Shion
17th: kept
17th: Jogibu
17th: Karaage
17th: Rarikkusu
17th: Rimu

Another day in the office for acola, seizing his revenge on Asimo for the previous Sumabato SP.


Cirque 4 (145 Entrants, A+)
1st: Miya
2nd: Lima
3rd: Light
4th: Sparg0
5th: SHADIC
5th: Tea
7th: Peabnut
7th: Tweek
9th: Kola
9th: TM7_ZAP
9th: Goblin
9th: Doramigi
13th: BeastModePaul
13th: Lui$
13th: Dominator
13th: jBoneX
17th: Osh9
17th: Aaron
17th: Epic_Gabriel
17th: Dany
17th: ChocoTaco
17th: Hurt
17th: Snow
17th: Zomba (DQ'd)

I may be mistaken, but I think this is Miya's first major win in a NA tournament, which is nice considering his not-so-stellar history in NA events.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the year coming close to an end, I am expecting the start of next year to feature the next iteration of the official tier list for Ultimate. It has been 3 years since the game last got patched, but this year still features quite a bit of meta/character shifts since the previous year.

For reference, this is the latest tier list published February 2024.
View attachment 395484

Since I want to raise some discussion to this mostly inactive thread, so I am wondering from folks here on what should we expect in terms of character movements for the next tier list. Obvious ones includes Corrin and Bayo rising up the ranks, which is something we have known for many months at this point, but I'd like to hear stuff for other characters too. I'll give my two cents later down the line.

Some characters I can see rising in the next iteration:

at 39th under characters like Sephiroth and Young Link is pretty funny nowadays with Raru proving that the character can consistently place very high and even threaten to take majors (even more impressively as a solo main too). Now that Raru is a household name, I expect top player's opinions on Luigi to increase a fair bit, at least pushing him out of B+ tier if I had to guess.

's placement is honestly largely because of Japan's continued low opinion of the character, but with ShinyMark's continued success with innovating the character's timeout strategy, it could be enough for Pika to rise a few spots. Probably won't be cracking top 10 though.

are both characters that I feel are a bit low for the results they have achieved, but I wouldn't really place them higher than B+ anyway. Hero is almost certainly seeing a rise though with Akak and BeastModePaul pushing the character to amazing heights this year.

DK's placement here is almost as funny as Luigi's to me. Probably one of the biggest rising stars of the 2024 meta, DK now boasts multiple high-level reps in Japan and NA who have been getting upsets left and right. DK's best wins this year, including players such as Light and Hurt, far outclass his peers in D+ and honestly up to C+ as well. The character has certainly given many top players a reason to fear him this year, and I expect a big rise up for the funny monkey to show that he's more equal with fellow heavyweights like Bowser and Incineroar.

As for characters that I see going down in the tier list, I can't really say for sure any of them would be falling outside of some of the more niche low tiers that have failed to make a mark on the meta since this last iteration. Robin and Mewtwo feel like outliers compared to characters like Bowser Jr. and even Zelda who have had some level of success between multiple mains. Robin is entirely dependent on Leaf to get any sort of result at this point, and Mewtwo's best player is stuck in Norway which is already a bad sign for consistent results.

 

[Rizen]

Don't forget Light won the Litvitational 3 and Wavelength 2024 with . Light's really been on a redemption tour along with Miya.

Two characters I can see moving up are and . Their results speak for themselves. Roy never should have been bumped down as far as he was; he's always been a top tier.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Been a bit of time, so I'll give my thoughts.

As time goes on, I feel that there is a far defined gap in power and meta presence between the A tier characters and the A- tier characters (minus Corrin and Bayo, of course). I won't be surprised if a lot of them drops down to the B tiers.

Now for individual characters:
The top 6 characters from the previous tier list is, funnily enough, pretty much exactly the same this year. Nothing has really changed regarding these guys.
acola isn't winning (or attending) as often as he used to be, and some players like Onin and Quandale hasn't been attending that much nowadays, but his continued high reps and with the emergence/improvements to players like Syrup and crepe salee, he is still def #1.
I guess one thing to note is that I don't necessarily agree with Steve and Sonic being put in a tier above the other 4. I think they are ranked that way cause they are the undisputed top 2 in the voting, but power level wise, those two aren't that much stronger than the other 4.

Guess we might rip this band-aid out right now. Ever since the start of the year, these two characters have soared in terms of both meta presence and results, and are two of the most improved from this year. I think both are solidly top 15 characters right now, A+ tier characters at the very least, with Bayo in particular potentially breaking into the top 10.
This year saw the emergence of TamaP and his strong results of the character, but funnily enough, has hasn't done really hot as of late. Lima's performance at Cirque 4, which happened literally a few days ago, shows that the character is still very strong and has even more room at grow.

Peach has unfortunately kind of hit of rough spot this year; MuteAce has been heavily underperforming in most of his events this year, and the character is still in a more niche spot representation-wise. Still very good, but I am unsure if she will maintain her top 10 placement this year.

On the flipside, while it was kind of alarming that Joker ended up going from #3 to nearly out of the top 10 going from the first list to the second, I think this character has solidified his top 10 position this year. MkLeo has started to pick up steam again with the character at the top level, and other players like Omega has continued to perform well with him as well.

The four characters currently in the A+ tier, and will likely be joined by Corrin and Bayo (and maybe Peach).
I think in this point in the meta, he is likely the weakest of the aforementioned four; the character hasn't really been seen at the highest level that much ever since Riddles started shifted his focus towards Street Fighter 6, and his polarizing matchups/weaknesses has been more pronounced as of late. The emergence of Wildz this year helps a bit, but still not quite the drive the character needs.
Want to talk about Yoshi specifically, cause while there was a lot of skepticism of him being ranked in the same lieu of the other 3 in the 2nd list, I think this year solidified his spot here. Yoshidora continues to perform excellently, but we also saw the emergence of Fui and the resurgence of Ron in the Japanese scene placing very highly and even outplacing Yoshidora at times. Yoshidora finally being able to attend and place very highly in NA majors will also improve his perception further.

The trio of A tiers definitely improved this year, but still likely going to end up in a similar tier position due to Corrin and Bayo trending up, and Palu, Samus, and Sora trending down. At the very least, I think Pika should prob the join the A+ tier. Mario has prob improved the most of the three, as at the very least, I think he outranks Wolf and Palutena.
improvement is Shinymark essentially replacing ESAM as the top dog of Pikachu, with great wins and results of the character, breathing new life to the character.
improvement mainly comes with Kola and Goblin obtaining better results this year, with Kola's recent win at Luminosity Invitational 2 being indicative of that.
improvement comes from the emergence of Snow. With Kurama and Dark Wizzy falling far behind the meta sadly, Snow is the drive that Mario meta desperately needs, and good lord what a drive that is.

While I said that is trending down, I think both are still solid A tier characters, but definitely doesn't have the same steam as the above three. On the other hand...
To be frank, I have no idea how this character ended up being ranked this highly in the first place. That being said, there is no doubt this character dropped off a cliff this year, largely thanks to Kameme being largely absent this year. The character continues in be sparse outside of him, with the only other player coming close to his success is Raarchyor, who doesn't solo main him and is also dealing with his own placements/reps being more sparse than last year. Likely the character who is going to fall off the list the most from the previous list.

If there is any character that can match Corrin and Bayo's increased prevalence in the meta, it is this guy. Luigi has soared in terms of top level representation and results. Players like Luugi and especially Raru has taken top placements in tournaments. Luigi players have shown that they don't need a grab to potentially deliver ridiculous damage combos or kill confirms, something that has only increased the character's threat level. Another no brainer for a rise, although I am not sure to what extent he will rise.

Definitely the most puzzling placement from the previous list due to being seemingly underranked, but Peabnut's continued great placements/wins with the character will likely result in a rise.

With Young Link's meta becoming increasingly stagnate in the past 2 years (and is likely going to drop down the list), Toon Link has emerged the best Link around. Lvl 1 has emerged this year with some consistently strong placements and wins with the character.

If there is any other character other than Sora that is likely going to drop off the most, it is Sephiroth. He doesn't really have any players anymore, as even the few top players who second the character like Tweek and KEN have pretty much stopped using him altogether. BeastModePaul is prob the only player that still uses him, but even that is a stretch since he primarily plays solo Hero is tournaments (who, as Cheryl says, is likely going to rise in the list as well). Still a menace in the mid level, which is likely where he is going to end up in the next list.

Despises the fact that MkLeo is primarily playing Joker in tournaments all year long. He did bring him out to reverse sweep a Japanese Shulk player (forgot his name), but that is about it. His set vs acola definitely shows a character that primarily relies on matchup checks to get his ridiculous stuff going. The character continues to get very little support outside of Leo, with Rizeasu losing tournament presence not helping either.



In general, I expect to see the C tier to see yet another massive reshifting, whether it is from B tier characters likely dropping down the C tiers, D tiers rising up to the C tiers, or the tournament presence of characters within the tier trending up and down.
Another massive winner of this year, but Cheryl already took the words out of my mouth, so I will leave it at that.
Also deserves an honorable mention, as TM7_ZAP is definitely the drive this characters needs to have an improved standing in the cast. Likely rising to the C tiers this time around alongside DK.
This character really enjoys Toriguri proving that the character isn't complete wack, and also benefits from some characters ranked above them getting more stagnate. This is still a flawed, matchup-checky character, but definitely one I can see rising up in the next list.
These three were the talk-of-the-town last year, but unfortunately they did not continue their momentum this year.
For ICs, it is largely cause Big D hasn't attended that much this year, so the character is likely not going to drop off that much.
The other two on the other hand has their best players, Skyjay and BassMage, respectively, struggle to obtain the same success as last year, especially in BassMage's case. Seems like it is a case of: rare character gets increased tournament presence from one player -> players learn the matchup -> said player doesn't get the same success.
This is a sad, but expected one, but Link's perception for many players has dropped off yet again this year. To be fair, the character has not obtained much of any results since pre-quarantine, but the character's meta continues to be stagnate for years which has caused many players to re-evalutate the character's toolkit. There are still some that see potential in him, but this has started to become more difficult to justify as we approach the game's 6th year of existing.

I think the character will likely still be ranked in the D tiers, but I do think his standing within the D tiers will be improved. Guilheww and JeJaJeJa's improved tournament placements this year has definitely contributed to an improvement to Kirby's previously dismal perception.


There are some other minor stuff that comes to mind on what may likely happen in the next list, but these are my thoughts.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I've been thinking about Corrin's placement in the meta and I've reached some conclusions. First off, she's a solid, good character, who tends to not really lose MUs hard but also not win MUs hard. She rewards players who can play a mix of strong fundamentals with a strong advantage state (knowing her combos etc). A strong Corrin player has the tool to win any MUs (Sheik is very rough though, but luckily for Corrin players good Sheiks are rare). If you think this description kind of sounds like early meta Lucina that's because she kind of is in a similar position in some ways. Corrin, as a character, is not really amazing. She's good, sure, and in the hands of a top 10 player she's going to seem really, really strong. She's lucky to have SHADIC playing her, without him there's almost no way people would argue that she's top 20, much less top 15. Neo is also a really strong player, but after that she falls off. Sure, some top players have used her as a secondary/pocket pick, like MkLeo and Sparg0, but they all seem to drop her after a while, and I imagine they would've gotten similar results with another high tier sword character, like Lucina or Sora. After Neo there's a significant drop in results, other Corrin players aren't producing nearly as good results.

Corrin is a good character. She does lose a lot of MUs (slightly), but most of her losing MUs are very doable, and she only has a few really bad MUs (and even then the top Corrin players do well vs them these days). People are probably overrating her because of SHADIC though. Somewhere around top 25-30 seems reasonable for her, I think. SHADIC thinks she's top 20 at best. Neo thinks she's around top 35 but I think that might be a tad too pessimistic. Around top 25-30 sounds good to me.

 

[Rizen]

Been a bit of time, so I'll give my thoughts.

As time goes on, I feel that there is a far defined gap in power and meta presence between the A tier characters and the A- tier characters (minus Corrin and Bayo, of course). I won't be surprised if a lot of them drops down to the B tiers.

Now for individual characters:
The top 6 characters from the previous tier list is, funnily enough, pretty much exactly the same this year. Nothing has really changed regarding these guys.
acola isn't winning (or attending) as often as he used to be, and some players like Onin and Quandale hasn't been attending that much nowadays, but his continued high reps and with the emergence/improvements to players like Syrup and crepe salee, he is still def #1.
I guess one thing to note is that I don't necessarily agree with Steve and Sonic being put in a tier above the other 4. I think they are ranked that way cause they are the undisputed top 2 in the voting, but power level wise, those two aren't that much stronger than the other 4.

Guess we might rip this band-aid out right now. Ever since the start of the year, these two characters have soared in terms of both meta presence and results, and are two of the most improved from this year. I think both are solidly top 15 characters right now, A+ tier characters at the very least, with Bayo in particular potentially breaking into the top 10.
This year saw the emergence of TamaP and his strong results of the character, but funnily enough, has hasn't done really hot as of late. Lima's performance at Cirque 4, which happened literally a few days ago, shows that the character is still very strong and has even more room at grow.

Peach has unfortunately kind of hit of rough spot this year; MuteAce has been heavily underperforming in most of his events this year, and the character is still in a more niche spot representation-wise. Still very good, but I am unsure if she will maintain her top 10 placement this year.

On the flipside, while it was kind of alarming that Joker ended up going from #3 to nearly out of the top 10 going from the first list to the second, I think this character has solidified his top 10 position this year. MkLeo has started to pick up steam again with the character at the top level, and other players like Omega has continued to perform well with him as well.

The four characters currently in the A+ tier, and will likely be joined by Corrin and Bayo (and maybe Peach).
I think in this point in the meta, he is likely the weakest of the aforementioned four; the character hasn't really been seen at the highest level that much ever since Riddles started shifted his focus towards Street Fighter 6, and his polarizing matchups/weaknesses has been more pronounced as of late. The emergence of Wildz this year helps a bit, but still not quite the drive the character needs.
Want to talk about Yoshi specifically, cause while there was a lot of skepticism of him being ranked in the same lieu of the other 3 in the 2nd list, I think this year solidified his spot here. Yoshidora continues to perform excellently, but we also saw the emergence of Fui and the resurgence of Ron in the Japanese scene placing very highly and even outplacing Yoshidora at times. Yoshidora finally being able to attend and place very highly in NA majors will also improve his perception further.

The trio of A tiers definitely improved this year, but still likely going to end up in a similar tier position due to Corrin and Bayo trending up, and Palu, Samus, and Sora trending down. At the very least, I think Pika should prob the join the A+ tier. Mario has prob improved the most of the three, as at the very least, I think he outranks Wolf and Palutena.
improvement is Shinymark essentially replacing ESAM as the top dog of Pikachu, with great wins and results of the character, breathing new life to the character.
improvement mainly comes with Kola and Goblin obtaining better results this year, with Kola's recent win at Luminosity Invitational 2 being indicative of that.
improvement comes from the emergence of Snow. With Kurama and Dark Wizzy falling far behind the meta sadly, Snow is the drive that Mario meta desperately needs, and good lord what a drive that is.

While I said that is trending down, I think both are still solid A tier characters, but definitely doesn't have the same steam as the above three. On the other hand...
To be frank, I have no idea how this character ended up being ranked this highly in the first place. That being said, there is no doubt this character dropped off a cliff this year, largely thanks to Kameme being largely absent this year. The character continues in be sparse outside of him, with the only other player coming close to his success is Raarchyor, who doesn't solo main him and is also dealing with his own placements/reps being more sparse than last year. Likely the character who is going to fall off the list the most from the previous list.

If there is any character that can match Corrin and Bayo's increased prevalence in the meta, it is this guy. Luigi has soared in terms of top level representation and results. Players like Luugi and especially Raru has taken top placements in tournaments. Luigi players have shown that they don't need a grab to potentially deliver ridiculous damage combos or kill confirms, something that has only increased the character's threat level. Another no brainer for a rise, although I am not sure to what extent he will rise.

Definitely the most puzzling placement from the previous list due to being seemingly underranked, but Peabnut's continued great placements/wins with the character will likely result in a rise.

With Young Link's meta becoming increasingly stagnate in the past 2 years (and is likely going to drop down the list), Toon Link has emerged the best Link around. Lvl 1 has emerged this year with some consistently strong placements and wins with the character.

If there is any other character other than Sora that is likely going to drop off the most, it is Sephiroth. He doesn't really have any players anymore, as even the few top players who second the character like Tweek and KEN have pretty much stopped using him altogether. BeastModePaul is prob the only player that still uses him, but even that is a stretch since he primarily plays solo Hero is tournaments (who, as Cheryl says, is likely going to rise in the list as well). Still a menace in the mid level, which is likely where he is going to end up in the next list.

Despises the fact that MkLeo is primarily playing Joker in tournaments all year long. He did bring him out to reverse sweep a Japanese Shulk player (forgot his name), but that is about it. His set vs acola definitely shows a character that primarily relies on matchup checks to get his ridiculous stuff going. The character continues to get very little support outside of Leo, with Rizeasu losing tournament presence not helping either.



In general, I expect to see the C tier to see yet another massive reshifting, whether it is from B tier characters likely dropping down the C tiers, D tiers rising up to the C tiers, or the tournament presence of characters within the tier trending up and down.
Another massive winner of this year, but Cheryl already took the words out of my mouth, so I will leave it at that.
Also deserves an honorable mention, as TM7_ZAP is definitely the drive this characters needs to have an improved standing in the cast. Likely rising to the C tiers this time around alongside DK.
This character really enjoys Toriguri proving that the character isn't complete wack, and also benefits from some characters ranked above them getting more stagnate. This is still a flawed, matchup-checky character, but definitely one I can see rising up in the next list.
These three were the talk-of-the-town last year, but unfortunately they did not continue their momentum this year.
For ICs, it is largely cause Big D hasn't attended that much this year, so the character is likely not going to drop off that much.
The other two on the other hand has their best players, Skyjay and BassMage, respectively, struggle to obtain the same success as last year, especially in BassMage's case. Seems like it is a case of: rare character gets increased tournament presence from one player -> players learn the matchup -> said player doesn't get the same success.
This is a sad, but expected one, but Link's perception for many players has dropped off yet again this year. To be fair, the character has not obtained much of any results since pre-quarantine, but the character's meta continues to be stagnate for years which has caused many players to re-evalutate the character's toolkit. There are still some that see potential in him, but this has started to become more difficult to justify as we approach the game's 6th year of existing.

I think the character will likely still be ranked in the D tiers, but I do think his standing within the D tiers will be improved. Guilheww and JeJaJeJa's improved tournament placements this year has definitely contributed to an improvement to Kirby's previously dismal perception.


There are some other minor stuff that comes to mind on what may likely happen in the next list, but these are my thoughts.

I'm going to run off my thoughts about a few of these comments.

About : while it's true, YL has nowhere to go but down, he has gotten a few placements in top 8. YL's a character of strengths and weaknesses who gets worse the more people figure him out. I got 9th out of 119 people early in Ultimate's lifespan going solo YL and never placed that high again. There are several things that make YL significantly worse once people learn the MU. 1st, all his projectiles lose to hitboxes. His zoning gets a lot worse once people learn they can power through projectiles with dash attack or long lasting aerials. The latter especially applies to intercepting YL offstage. 2nd, YL's combos get less consistent when the opponent DIs out. Suddenly YL is missing a lot of things which would be guaranteed like ground spin attack>Uair once the opponent picks up on this. When you see YL with amazing chains like fire arrow>fire arrow>Uair it's only because the opponent isn't DIing correctly. The reason you never see YLs Dtilt>jump> spin attack anymore is opponents frequently fall out of it. 3rd YL has a linear recovery that loses to disjoints. It's not bad but not good either. He has once of the shortest tethers in the game. Although spin attack has good drift its hitboxes are pretty small and only really beat out characters with bad disjoints. It's very easy from someone like Lucina to simply drop down and Bair him, which probably spells death. YL will randomly drop the bomb he's holding if he's hit, which is stupid. 4th, although YL has an amazing neutral and good damage output he dies at a much lower % than most of his opponents. His kill power is among the worst in the game. There are a ton of MUs where it seems like YL should have an advantage but the discrepancy between when he dies and the opponent dies is so great that they end up being even. Because this he doesn't win any MUs by wide margins.

(Edit) Also YL's MUs are very stage dependent. He rules big stages vs 95% of the cast like PS2 and TnC but he gets significantly worse on small stages and stages without platforms like FD. Bans and counterpicking can really screw YL over.

However, I think that also struggles with a lot of the same issues and he lacks many of YL's great tools. TL's advantages over YL are he's slightly faster in the air, slightly heavier, kills slightly earlier, spin attack on the ground kills and is faster which gives him a better OoS game, Usmash is one hit so it's safer on wiff, Utilt has low % combos and bombs explode when hit so they can beat out attacks (YL's bombs bounce off hitboxes).

YL's advantages are: his f4 sex kick Nair is an amazing combo breaker and much better than TL's. While TL is forced to use bombs for combos, YL can combo off all his projectiles and Dtilt. YL has an amazing landing game with only 6f landing lag on Nair, Fair and Bair. He can landing combo Bair1 and Fair1 into Usmash or Dtilt to extend his combos and Zair into DA or Usmash. Dair doesn't auto fast fall which makes it great at covering YL's landings. YL's frame data is slightly better. YL's damage output is better. YL's Uair is f5 where TL's is F11 so YL has combos like Dthrow>Uair TL lacks. YL's less floaty which also helps his landings. YL's bombs have shorter fuses which makes them better for saving YL's recoveries. YL's basically a character with slightly worse stats but a much better toolkit than TL. Overall I'd say YL is still the best Link.

 

[Rizen]

Things are happening. Bruho won Mash Harder with Kazuya and KRool including beating Zomba in a grands reset with pure Krool. From what I saw he used both characters pretty evenly, which is about as good of a result as you're going to get with Krool. Also Lumonosity Makes Moves Miami is happening.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Been a while since this thread got updated. A few major events have happened this past month, so I want to list them here.

DELTA 9 (S Tier, 380 Entrants) (October 27th)
1st: Miya
2nd: Raru
3rd: Ryopei
4th: Shuton
5th: Toriguri
5th: TamaPDaifuku
7th: M0tsunabE
7th: Yamanaction
9th: Lunamado
9th: Sin
9th: Snow
9th: KEN
13th: Fui
13th: kept
13th: uame
13th: alice
17th: Eik
17th: Gackt
17th: tameigo
17th: Gorioka
17th: Lax
17th: Shinnnnnji
17th: Marcos
17th: Ocha
25th: Glutonny
25th: ElleGo
25th: Akakikusu
25th: Shion
25th: Ari
25th: Kurofune
25th: chicken
25th: Rarikkusu
33rd: Kebanga
33rd: Ezs
33rd: Leaf
33rd: Gachipi
33rd: Tet.
33rd: Karaage
33rd: Kyou
33rd: T.earth
33rd: Kisha
33rd: Sumaho
33rd: MairudonaH.O
33rd: Tsubaki
33rd: Masami
33rd: K.O. Kou
33rd: sssr
33rd: Noi


Luminosity Makes Moves Miami 2024 (S Tier, 365 Entrants) (Steve banned, similar to past LMM events) (November 1st-3rd)
1st: Tweek
2nd: Sonix
3rd: Light
4th: MkLeo
5th: Maister
5th: Wrath
7th: Riddles
7th: Lima
9th: Syrup
9th: Miya
9th: Skeleton
9th: SHADIC
13th: Jahzz0
13th: Zomba
13th: loaf
13th: fawn
17th: Beastly
17th: Atomic
17th: BeastModePaul
17th: Raflow
17th: Pacha
17th: Lui$
17th: Anarchy
17th: MuteAce
25th: Peabnut
25th: Dany
25th: Spritzy
25th: Marss
25th: Epic_Gabriel
25th: Kola
25th: elijimin
25th: Seel
33rd: Deathspade
33rd: GuyGuy
33rd: Sonido
33rd: NoTag
33rd: Amir
33rd: WebbJP
33rd: Kobe
33rd: BassMage
33rd: omega
33rd: Chugs
33rd: Chase
33rd: Dominator
33rd: firefly
33rd: Goblin
33rd: AwDaSea
33rd: ChunkyKong


The Throne II (A Tier, 16 Entrant Invitational) (November 8th-10th)
1st: Sparg0
2nd: Light
3rd: MkLeo
4th: Hurt
5th: Tweek
5th: Candle
7th: Zackray
7th: Rimu
9th: Kola
9th: Tilde
9th: Riddles
9th: MuteAce
13th: SHADIC
13th: ChunkyKong
13th: Marss
13th: drybie


Don't Park on the Grass 2024 (A+ Tier, 344 Entrants) (November 16th-17th)
1st: Sparg0
2nd: Miya
3rd: Lui$
4th: KEN
5th: Shuton
5th: Raru
7th: MVD
7th: Snow
9th: JDV
9th: MFA
9th: MKBigBoss
9th: Rarikkusu
13th: Tarik
13th: Lemmon
13th: Opsine
13th: Ludo
17th: Raiyihn
17th: Big D
17th: Tora
17th: Monte
17th: Ouch!?
17th: Abe
17th: X'avier
17th: Seesaw
25th: Deathspade
25th: BassMage
25th: embo_z
25th: Dtier
25th: Mio!
25th: Scend
25th: Peace!2
25th: Domnique


I think Sparg0 and Miya at this point has secured the #1 and #2 spots, respectively, for this season.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Two more notable events, and I believe this is more interesting when it comes to a character discussion aspect.

LACS Rivals (8 Player Invitational, B+ Tier)
1st: Miya
2nd: Glutonny
3rd: Light
4th: Sparg0
5th: SHADIC
5th: Tweek
7th: Marss
7th: Lui$


UltCore Fourth (367 Entrants, S Tier)
1st: Raru
2nd: Doramigi
3rd: Yoshidora
4th: acola
5th: Hurt
5th: Ryuoh
7th: alice
7th: TamaPDaifuku
9th: Jogibu
9th: DieGorou
9th: Masha
9th: Snow
13th: Tsubaki
13th: Nyonoknb
13th: Rarikkusu
13th: Navy
17th: Reno
17th: Metara
17th: Akakikusu
17th: Shirayuki
17th: Toriguri
17th: Lapi
17th: Asimo
17th: 33Peranbox
25th: Sidarezakura
25th: Yone_pi
25th: Carmelo
25th: Umeki
25th: Noi
25th: Mokumoku
25th: M0tsunabE
25th: Mark
33rd: CLAW
33rd: Furararamen
33rd: MildnaH.O
33rd: Tsukasa
33rd: DIO
33rd: Futari no Kiwami Ah~!
33rd: Onjoji
33rd: yoko#
33rd: Raki
33rd: Omuatsu
33rd: Ryopei
33rd: Dynamite
33rd: Lvl. 1
33rd: Midorun
33rd: Penguins
33rd: Karaage


Back at Sumabato SP 47 at May 2024, Raru became the first ever Luigi player to win a major in any Smash game. He later won Sumabato SP 50 at August.
And now here at UltCore Fourth, Raru has become the first ever Luigi player to win a supermajor in any Smash game.

So, uhhhhh... could Luigi be top tier?

Also, this event has prob solidified acola within the top 5, but he is definitely not getting #1 this season.

 

[Rizen]

^ is a very inconsistent character. He certainly has the tools to win big but he can lose hard just as easily. Something people never talk about is Luigi's recovery. It's genuinely bad. His airspeed is atrocious and his sideB doesn't go very far without a misfire and has a lot of lag. In many ways Luigi's a sitting duck offstage. I'd put him in lower high tier.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Brawler+Swordfighter got 9th at Delta? Interesting gotta check that out.

Tweek losing to Miya at LACS in a clearly winning matchup due to not being sufficiently prepared and crumbling more than getting figured out throughout the set though. That was annoying to watch. And then Gluto who puts up a much better fight -given what he has to work with- because he's far more professional than Tweek loses to Miya in grands because Wario sucks. Great.

 

[Hippieslayer]

^ is a very inconsistent character. He certainly has the tools to win big but he can lose hard just as easily. Something people never talk about is Luigi's recovery. It's genuinely bad. His airspeed is atrocious and his sideB doesn't go very far without a misfire and has a lot of lag. In many ways Luigi's a sitting duck offstage. I'd put him in lower high tier.

How do you think he compares in consistency to Kazuya? A little while back I thought he might end up better Kazuya. Because I thought he was more consistent and slightly harder to just camp because he does have tools to approach. But you make a strong point against that. Recovery is important.

People have pretty varied estimations of Kazuya in my experience.

 

[Rizen]

How do you think he compares in consistency to Kazuya? A little while back I thought he might end up better Kazuya. Because I thought he was more consistent and slightly harder to just camp because he does have tools to approach. But you make a strong point against that. Recovery is important.

People have pretty varied estimations of Kazuya in my experience.

I think Kazuya's a lot more consistent than Luigi. There are several reasons for this. Kazuya has much better survival ability; he's heavier and has a better recovery. I also think his wind god fist is a better touch of death combo starter than Luigi's grab. Kazuya just has a lot more going for him than Luigi. He has a reflector, his upB doesn't freefall. He gets powered up command grabs. In Luigi's favor, he does have much faster close quarter combat but when you get zoned as hard as he does it's less of a factor.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tweek losing to Miya at LACS in a clearly winning matchup due to not being sufficiently prepared and crumbling more than getting figured out throughout the set though. That was annoying to watch. And then Gluto who puts up a much better fight -given what he has to work with- because he's far more professional than Tweek loses to Miya in grands because Wario sucks. Great.

Tweek also had it in game 5, but he started to autopilot hard in disadvantage during the second stock, allowing Miya to make one of his trademark comebacks.
Also given how close grand's is, the loss isn't really calked down to "Wario sucks"; it was simply a close duel between two top players.
Speaking of Glutto, it is unfort that he hasn't really had much opportunity to attend many major tournaments this season, but it is nice to see that he is still capable of taking sets off of the best in the world, taking one vs Sparg0, one vs Miya (bracket reset), and twice vs Light (2nd set featured an absolute robbery at game 5, trademark of Wario).

People have pretty varied estimations of Kazuya in my experience.

Kazuya opinions among top players are all over the place lately. Seen some put him outside the top 15, while I have seen some put him top 5.
My opinion is more of the former than the latter; character has slipped off this year in lieu of other characters currently ranked below him, and Riddles (the main guy giving him significant placements in high level events) has been less active in Ultimate in favor of SF6, but Kaz is still undeniably very good.