Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    533
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
506
Am curious about something: by the time patch 6.1.0 rolled out, :ultjigglypuff: was very hyped up to be a character that break out of the bars of bottom five, and many of us saw that Puff may potentially break out of low tier.
However, ever since the patch came out, Puff hasn't really done anything notable in tournaments at all. :ultkirby:, in the other hand, is reaping up the benefits of the 6.1.0 buffs much more effectively, with improved results across the board and even a few very impressive showings at bigger events for a character previously perceived as bottom 5, maybe even the worst character, prior to 6.1.0.
Even :ultkrool: is getting more instances (albeit still very limited, especially in comparison to Kirby) of success after the update, with Tweek fooling around with him and Joker using mostly K. Rool to semi-win a Mexican regional.

So here is the question, is Puff's buffs from 6.1.0 overhyped? Because right now, it sort of seems that way in my eyes.

And it’s not like it’s for a total lack of trying either. As I noted before, Arika, THE Japanese Jigglypuff, attended the same Umebura Ferretkuma did but only got 97th. Much lower compared to Ferret’s 17th.

Amongst discussion of the jackpot winners I did feel like :ultkirby:‘s changes frequently got undersold in the face of his contemporaries. Especially Jigglypuff. Thus it’s interesting to see Kirby being the one to get a noticeable uptick in performance. Jesuischoq already managed to breach Top 64 at an A Tier before the patch so as long as he attends things at every reasonable opportunity I don’t see his performance faltering and I am eager to see if Ferretkuma and the other Japanese Kirbies can start popping up more consistently.

And then you have Komota who tends to be quiet for long periods of time before bursting out of nowhere. Soon after the update he got 5th at Smashing the Ice 4, only falling behind some of the strongest PR in his region including Darkshad. In earlier updates, he has on more than one occasion been on the cusp of breaching Top 64 at S Tiers. He’s registered for Frostbite 2020 so his performance will be quite interesting to see. A relevant placing at an S Tier is the one major threshold Kirby hasn’t cracked yet. Hopefully he can do It.

Speaking of waiting to see, to go back to :ultjigglypuff:, while I personally have always felt that her improvements were a bit gassed up a bit, I’ll reserve final judgment until I see BassMage have a go at stacked major. Pre-Patch he managed to get 97th at EVO with her. If anyone can display whether or not Puff’s buffs were the real deal it’d be him.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,030
Location
Somewhere in this Universe
NNID
MrGameguycolor
Switch FC
7681-9716-5789
Welp, to be fair: that much HP would make breaking Belly Armor basically impossible for lighter characters like :ultmetaknight: or :ultpikachu: (can they even inflict 30 damage on it, leave alone 40 with regeneration?). Not that they have much trouble with the current :ultkrool:... but if he gets other buffs (like we hope so), this might be a completely different matter. Although i admit part of me just wants to slam "50 HP on Belly Armor!" and care not for anything or anyone.
LOL, the :ultpikachu: MU is hell for :ultkrool:, he'll take anything good he can get against that little rat.

Not sure about other MU's like :ultmetaknight: or :ultsheik: for example, but I don't imagine they do :ultkrool: any favors currently... (& frankly most characters don't)
So for once their archetype would pose a more reasonable problem.
SOLD

Also hell yeah for 50 HP belly armor!
Just make the salty online players even salter.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,632
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Don't get me wrong, I don't always agree with Sakurai, far from it. His design decisions are not always my favorite, as many well know I authored the "Buff Samus in smash4 video" with the members of this forum when she was literally bottom tier in 4.

But to answer your question directly: I don't think Ken's damage output is the reason to play Ken. Pika is a good example, but many characters can get 40% or more with combos and my main girl in power armor can pick up 35% and/or a kill with single read.
You're playing this character for the close fight, specifically the ability to pressure shield continuously into full combo, shield breaks and parry situations (which lead into full combo) as I described. He's specifically tailored to do that and only that, singularly focused.
You're not going to get the trivial zone breaking neutral of the electric rats, because the rats don't have the close fight. All that trivial zone breaking doesn't give you guaranteed shield pressure, breaks and parries.
Is the underlying engine in *favor* of the close fighter vs the zone breakers or zoners themselves?
I don't have an answer for that yet, it's not obvious yet.
I *think*, theory craft, that yes. With enough skill and knowledge the close fighter is superior. I want to push the meta of the character and we'll see. My theory is given the present tools, Ken will be top tier. There's no guarantee, but with my knowledge of the engine as it stands, I'm optimistic.
I don't think so simply because Ken's game plan is not quantifiable.

On paper he loses to well over half the cast. But as you said he is not a smash character.

Also I feel there are far too many variables to consider during shield pressure.

AND...lemme blow your mind.

Sometimes the best option for Ken during pressure is to LET his opponent get away. Just to see habits and set up something bigger.

He is far too complex and takes too much training. He always has to beat the player.

I don't think we will ever see what he looks like at max or near max potential nor his true tier placement.
 
Last edited:

blackghost

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
1,804
the other thing with ken even something as basical as movement is not in a smash player habits. I watched momochi play ken on stream in ultimate he moved like he was playing street fighter 4. he rarely jumped he threw fireballs whenever he had space and he treated the ledge like a corner. ken and ryu are difficult because unless you have background experience in street fighter you wont be able to maximize these characters. terry is slighlty different from the shotos in that regard but ken and ryu will take time even on the carry over from smash 4.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,235
Location
United States of Russia
Well I've seen a lot of :ultpokemontrainer: in tournaments lately (who hasn't?) and have to admit I've been underestimating :ultivysaur:. Ivy's definitely the best of the three pokemon. He has good combos off things like throw and a great advantage state. Razor leaf is also a better projectile than I first gave it credit for, mainly due to it's slow speed. Ivy's a good zoner with huge attacks in advantage. Everyone knows U/Dair but upB's strong and has good reach and Fsmash is too big to roll behind which makes it good for landing and ledge traps.

I've changed the :ultpokemontrainer:/:ultyounglink: MU to even. As with most MUs, YL has the better damage wracking but worse KOing. Much worse. Charizard's Bair and Ivy's Dair spike can kill YL significantly lower than he kills them. Squirtle is small and can dash under arrows (same goes for Pichu and Sonic's spin dash fml). Squirtle zone breaks pretty well but YL's amazing f4 Nair really comes in handy shutting him down. Ivy's probably the hardest of the three because he has disjoint that YL hates but YL out-camps him harder. Charizard's the easiest for YL but you have to watch out for flare blitz powering through projectiles. It's best not to commit to charging arrows vs him. Overall YL has the better neutral than any of the pokemon but gets wrecked in disadvantage and the pokemon are good enough to put him there.

As YL I'd take PT to PS2 or TnC where YL can zone them the hardest and reset on platforms. I'd ban Yoshi's Story/BF: YL is not good at controlling tri-plats' platforms with his small hitboxes. Only Usmash hit 3 hits above BF's lower platform from the ground and that's a terrible option.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,030
Location
Maryland
Well I've seen a lot of :ultpokemontrainer: in tournaments lately (who hasn't?) and have to admit I've been underestimating :ultivysaur:. Ivy's definitely the best of the three pokemon. He has good combos off things like throw and a great advantage state. Razor leaf is also a better projectile than I first gave it credit for, mainly due to it's slow speed. Ivy's a good zoner with huge attacks in advantage. Everyone knows U/Dair but upB's strong and has good reach and Fsmash is too big to roll behind which makes it good for landing and ledge traps.

I've changed the :ultpokemontrainer:/:ultyounglink: MU to even. As with most MUs, YL has the better damage wracking but worse KOing. Much worse. Charizard's Bair and Ivy's Dair spike can kill YL significantly lower than he kills them. Squirtle is small and can dash under arrows (same goes for Pichu and Sonic's spin dash fml). Squirtle zone breaks pretty well but YL's amazing f4 Nair really comes in handy shutting him down. Ivy's probably the hardest of the three because he has disjoint that YL hates but YL out-camps him harder. Charizard's the easiest for YL but you have to watch out for flare blitz powering through projectiles. It's best not to commit to charging arrows vs him. Overall YL has the better neutral than any of the pokemon but gets wrecked in disadvantage and the pokemon are good enough to put him there.

As YL I'd take PT to PS2 or TnC where YL can zone them the hardest and reset on platforms. I'd ban Yoshi's Story/BF: YL is not good at controlling tri-plats' platforms with his small hitboxes. Only Usmash hit 3 hits above BF's lower platform from the ground and that's a terrible option.
That's actually really interesting, because I'm seeing the exact opposite. More and more top PT's seem to be losing faith in the char.

Puppeh has been inactive (and is picking up a new char), Tweek has switched to Joker, Leffen is semi-retired, Wishes plays Toon Link or Icies or something...

And pretty much every top PT seems to say that Ivy is the worst of the three and a gimmick.

Which makes sense if you consider that Squirtle's neutral and damage output is more "real" and consistent than Ivy's, and Zard only comes out when you're terrified of him anyways.

I actually don't think I've seen a single top PT say that Ivy was good, and seeing how limited her neutral is vs other zoners, I'm inclined to agree. She can snatch stocks though.

EDIT: Actually, this is extra interesting considering the top PT's also despise the Young Link MU.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,235
Location
United States of Russia
That's actually really interesting, because I'm seeing the exact opposite. More and more top PT's seem to be losing faith in the char.

Puppeh has been inactive (and is picking up a new char), Tweek has switched to Joker, Leffen is semi-retired, Wishes plays Toon Link or Icies or something...

And pretty much every top PT seems to say that Ivy is the worst of the three and a gimmick.

Which makes sense if you consider that Squirtle's neutral and damage output is more "real" and consistent than Ivy's, and Zard only comes out when you're terrified of him anyways.

I actually don't think I've seen a single top PT say that Ivy was good, and seeing how limited her neutral is vs other zoners, I'm inclined to agree. She can snatch stocks though.

EDIT: Actually, this is extra interesting considering the top PT's also despise the Young Link MU.
If you want to see the YL/PT MU there's Mr.R vs Leffen:
I used to think it was slightly in YL's favor but recently changed it to even. Mr.R was forced to switch to Chrom, although I do think that was more a case of Leffen outplaying him.
There are a lot of MUs that seem like YL should win because he wins at long and mid-range but he loses pretty hard at close range and has to deal about 50% more damage than the opponent. PT's one of them.

Ivy's U/Dair are too darn big and good for Ivy to be a bad character. And PT's still 5th on Orion Stats. Squirtle's good at early % damage wracking but he's the third lightest character and has poor kill options. There are hundreds of top level PT matches. They have a fairly set formula of starting with squirtle and moving to Ivy at mid %s, than switching to Charizard as needed usually to recover. IDC what top players are bellyaching about Ivy: there's tons of data saying he's good. It just goes to show that players will complain about anything.
 

Ziodyne 21

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,409
That's actually really interesting, because I'm seeing the exact opposite. More and more top PT's seem to be losing faith in the char.

Puppeh has been inactive (and is picking up a new char), Tweek has switched to Joker, Leffen is semi-retired, Wishes plays Toon Link or Icies or something...

And pretty much every top PT seems to say that Ivy is the worst of the three and a gimmick.

Which makes sense if you consider that Squirtle's neutral and damage output is more "real" and consistent than Ivy's, and Zard only comes out when you're terrified of him anyways.

I actually don't think I've seen a single top PT say that Ivy was good, and seeing how limited her neutral is vs other zoners, I'm inclined to agree. She can snatch stocks though.

EDIT: Actually, this is extra interesting considering the top PT's also despise the Young Link MU.

Wishes mains Joker now.

While all three Pokemon are good at different roles and cover each others flaws to a "some" degree.

I think I heard one big flaw all three pokemon share is that they all struggle pretty hard if they get trapped at the ledge. Even Squirtle surprisingly. Although that can possibly be due to how light he is.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
554
Zackray posted his 6.1.0 tier list to Youtube today. I don't know Japanese so I don't really know why certain characters are where they are (although I'd like to know for some of them).
1575698030680.png


S+ Tier seems accurate as does (most of S Tier). However, :ultmarth: and :ultyoshi: are being grouped with those characters for some reason. :ultlucas: seems a tier too high while :ultridley: is somehow good enough to be above :ultmegaman::ultdiddy::ultken::ulttoonlink::ultbowser::ultness::ultyounglink: and :ultfalco: among others. Also, I feel like some of the characters who were buffed in 6.0.0 and :ult_terry: may also be to low but that might just be me.

Edit: :ultsheik: seems too low and while not everyone will agree with that, I think she's been proven to be a better than :ultkirby: levels of mediocre.
 
Last edited:

Idon

Smash Legend
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
15,510
Location
Amala Network
NNID
Hito-shura
Switch FC
King of Chaos
Zackray posted his 6.1.0 tier list to Youtube today. I don't know Japanese so I don't really know why certain characters are where they are (although I'd like to know for some of them).
View attachment 250761

S+ Tier seems accurate as does (most of S Tier). However, :ultmarth: and :ultyoshi: are being grouped with those characters for some reason. :ultlucas: seems a tier too high while :ultridley: is somehow good enough to be above :ultmegaman::ultdiddy::ultken::ulttoonlink::ultbowser::ultness::ultyounglink: and :ultfalco: among others. Also, I feel like some of the characters who were buffed in 6.0.0 and :ult_terry: may also be to low but that might just be me.
Marth in S tier seems... doubtful. Ike in S- seems even moreso now that everyone and their mother knows he's a one-trick pony. Don't even know when Ridley got up there, but perhaps he knows something I don't.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
763
What I find more interesting about Zackray's tier list rather than its placements is the structure of it: He has the two highest tier "grades" (S and A), split into 3 tiers of their own, while tier grades B and C don't have two extra tiers of their own. Furthermore, only 6 characters are not ranked in at least A- tier or higher, that being :ultdk::ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultkingdedede::ultlittlemac: and :ultkrool:. If I were to interpret how his tier list is presented, I would guess that tiers S and A indicate characters that are viable, and outside of the jump from S- to A+, the differences between each tier are minor. Now in terms of what separates S and A tier from each other, I would assume that S indicates the characters there are most likely solo-viable, while A tier indicates that you may need a secondary to cover certain problematic match-ups (this is major guessing on my part). It's an interesting way of arranging a tier list compared to the traditional top tier -> high tier -> mid tier -> low tier format, but I think this style of list does a better job of highlighting that there's very few characters on this list that you can sleep on (if any for that matter). A character like :ultfalcon: is most likely better than :ultkirby:, but using that as a reason to brush aside Kirby much more in comparison will most likely land you in a FerretKuma-esque-upset-situation, especially at a higher level.
Only major problem I have with his list is :ultkrool: being in a tier of his own. I personally don't see anyone being bad enough to warrant a tier of their own in this game.

==========================

Kongo Saga pools begin tomorrow. Discussion is in the link provided :)

https://smashboards.com/threads/2gg-kongo-saga-discussion-thread.494701/#post-23701326
 
Last edited:

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,030
Location
Maryland
If you want to see the YL/PT MU there's Mr.R vs Leffen:
I used to think it was slightly in YL's favor but recently changed it to even. Mr.R was forced to switch to Chrom, although I do think that was more a case of Leffen outplaying him.
There are a lot of MUs that seem like YL should win because he wins at long and mid-range but he loses pretty hard at close range and has to deal about 50% more damage than the opponent. PT's one of them.

Ivy's U/Dair are too darn big and good for Ivy to be a bad character. And PT's still 5th on Orion Stats. Squirtle's good at early % damage wracking but he's the third lightest character and has poor kill options. There are hundreds of top level PT matches. They have a fairly set formula of starting with squirtle and moving to Ivy at mid %s, than switching to Charizard as needed usually to recover. IDC what top players are bellyaching about Ivy: there's tons of data saying he's good. It just goes to show that players will complain about anything.
Mr. R ended up switching after he had already beaten Leffen in Winners Finals with YL, iirc. Being able to adapt/counteradapt doesn't make an MU even. For example, I wouldn't call Pikachu vs Fox even now just because Light finally beat ESAM.

As for Ivy, I don't think hitbox size makes Ivy a good character.

Similarly, OrionStats shows usage for the whole season, and at the beginning of the season, everyone was using PT. Joker just barely passed Wolf; that doesn't mean Joker wasn't better until just recently.

As for PT, different trainers have vastly different styles. Tweek stuck with Squirtle and switched based on his own percent, for example. Others switched for different reasons.

Ivy has a role on the team, sure. But her projectile game is pretty linear, and she doesn't do as well vs other zoners or chars with better frame data. Not to mention a poor disadvantage, and most of her stock stealing abilities showing up when the opponent is completely unaware of how to counter it. For example, iirc, Razor Leaf to up b doesn't work as well if the opponent DI's it.

I personally believe PT is still good, but not amazing... and I agree that Ivysaur is probably the worst of the three. Based on both the words of those who play her and what's discussed above.

EDIT: Despite too many + and -, I do really like how some people are trying to indicate in their tier lists that every char is solid. The balance team did an exceptional job despite complaints.
 
Last edited:

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
2,671
Hey, Sonic made an S tier. Though, Ridley being in that same tier seems suspect. Not sure (if it really is this way) that Ridley is solo-viable.
 

Impax

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
Messages
154
japan must not have any wii fits. because theres no way she's that low.

also marth is really high and not much faith in terry.
There really arent. Keroguchi did get second over some prominent players recently. Then kony has placed highly in a few c tiers too. Other than that theres pochi and arika pockets her.
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,632
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
japan must not have any wii fits. because theres no way she's that low.

also marth is really high and not much faith in terry.
Which is funny because Tsu won the lost Toryumon local with solo Terry. 42 Entrants.

He beat Shogun's Snake. KEN's Sonic and his Joker as well.

I am excited to see what he does at Kongo saga.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,726
Location
Sweden
Frihetsanka Frihetsanka What are your thoughts on :ulthero: right now? You used to hype him up as soon as he released. Do you still have the same opinion on him as before?
I think Parappa is the best Hero main that I've seen, he seems to be much better than everyone else at using Hero's Command Selection, which I think is necessary in order to optimally play him. If an AI could play Hero and optimally select the best command quickly, then Hero would be top tier for sure, potentially even the best character in the game. Humans aren't as optimal as AI, and even with practice it's very hard to optimally select the best spell for the situation (or cancel the menu if that's optimal). I think, optimally, played, Hero could be top tier.

So... Why aren't people playing Hero? There are a few reasons, one being that actually reaching this level of play is incredibly hard. While Parappa seems to be better at using the menu than other Hero players (better than Salem, too) he seems to struggle to actually reach top level of play. Top players are disincentivized to pick up Hero, not only is he one of the hardest characters to master, RNG also plays a large part in his kit, even at top level. Why play a difficult character that sometimes puts you at a disadvantage because you were unlucky, when you can play a much easier top tier that doesn't have that issue? Top players do not benefit from increasing the amount of RNG added to the game, so why would they play Hero?

Ultimately it's hard to say how good Hero is at a practical level, since the best Hero mains aren't exactly top 50 players (not to diss Parappa but he hasn't exactly done well at majors, as far as I know). Most of it will end up being a mixture of watching high level Hero mains and theory crafting, which is probably not as reliable as watching top level character mains and theory crafting and looking at actual results. Still, Hero has some many incredibly tools (mainly his specials), all of his specials are very good (up-B would be much worse if Zoom didn't exist, though, with Zoom edgeguarding Hero becomes much less reliable). Nearly any character would love to have Hero's down-B, side-B, and neutral-B.

For the time being, I would put him in high tier. Maybe he could be top tier but we will likely never know for sure, since I don't foresee a top level player actually maining Hero. Right now, Salem is probably the best Hero player, while Parappa is probably the best Hero player. If Salem went all in on Hero and decided to master him and the use of Command Selection then we could be in for a ride, but I don't think he's going to do that.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,235
Location
United States of Russia
Mr. R ended up switching after he had already beaten Leffen in Winners Finals with YL, iirc. Being able to adapt/counteradapt doesn't make an MU even. For example, I wouldn't call Pikachu vs Fox even now just because Light finally beat ESAM.
Mr.R's YL got 3 stocked in winner's semi-finals game1, then he switched to Chrom and lost, then he went back to YL and beat Leffen, then in GFs Leffen beat him. It doesn't get more even than that.

I've played the MU against at lest 6 different PTs. It goes back and forth but it's not winning for YL.
Zackray posted his 6.1.0 tier list to Youtube today. I don't know Japanese so I don't really know why certain characters are where they are (although I'd like to know for some of them).
View attachment 250761

S+ Tier seems accurate as does (most of S Tier). However, :ultmarth: and :ultyoshi: are being grouped with those characters for some reason. :ultlucas: seems a tier too high while :ultridley: is somehow good enough to be above :ultmegaman::ultdiddy::ultken::ulttoonlink::ultbowser::ultness::ultyounglink: and :ultfalco: among others. Also, I feel like some of the characters who were buffed in 6.0.0 and :ult_terry: may also be to low but that might just be me.

Edit: :ultsheik: seems too low and while not everyone will agree with that, I think she's been proven to be a better than :ultkirby: levels of mediocre.
:ultridley: above :ultyounglink:? They don't think very much of the little guy in Japan.
 

Goodstyle_4

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
256
Just saw a match between Riddles and Kome that completely convinced me that Terry's recovery is completely untenable for a consistent top threat. He seems to have a glass ceiling despite being so damn good in a lot of other areas.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,030
Location
Maryland
Mr.R's YL got 3 stocked in winner's semi-finals game1, then he switched to Chrom and lost, then he went back to YL and beat Leffen, then in GFs Leffen beat him. It doesn't get more even than that.
Leffen beat his Chrom in GF's, yes. And two sets don't indicate even is my point. Especially because they were practicing with each other for hours and hours pre tournament
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
2,671
Might be a little too early to write Terry off (Chrom exists, and while he may not be a top threat, he's pretty good). That said, he needs some weaknesses.
 
Last edited:

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,565
Our first major upsets for today:

Kite 2-0 Sonido:ultsonic:
Linky:ulttoonlink: 2-1 Ketchup:ultludwig:
KirbyKid:ultkrool: 2-1 kept:ultvillager:
huto:ultbanjokazooie: 2-1 Eon:ultjoker::ultfox: (not much of an upset, but still notable)
Pheonix 2-1 Stroder:ultroy: (I think?)

Ben Gold:ultkrool: did a nice job taking game 1 off of Samsora:ultpeach:, but then Samsora downloaded the ever-living crap out of him on game 2 and especially 3.


Edit:
FireHao:ultdiddy: 2-0 Lui$:ultfox:
Note: Due to both being upsetted, Stroder:ultroy: and kept:ultvillager: are forced to fight eachother in loser's if they are not going to drown in pools.
 
Last edited:

blackghost

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
1,804
Might be a little too early to write Terry off (Chrom exists, and while he may not be a top threat, he's pretty good). That said, he needs some weaknesses.
chrom functions in high tier because his air speed is so high it sometimes compensates for his weak recovery. terry doesnt have that. terry has to learn to use 4 different up distances to recover and space exceptionally well with them.

samsora vs ben gold was a lesson in tier differences and adaptation. samsora just stopped respecting k rool. see the last kill.
 
Last edited:

Anomika

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
105
Speaking of doubles, we're about to witness the most glorious finals with Maister / Zackray and MKLeo / Glutonny playing double Mr Game & Watch :ultgnw: vs double Wario :ultwario:, after Maister and Zackray beat Light and Larry Lurr. Even with Team Attack on, they managed to get Larry to 250% thanks to the platform and Chef's trajectory being changeable. Very toxic but also very hilarious, they almost reached the stalling threshold (300%)
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Premium
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,030
Location
Maryland
I will just say that Game & Watch seems to invalidate a ton of characters. That, or everyone's playstyle vs the char is totally wrong.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,235
Location
United States of Russia
I think Parappa is the best Hero main that I've seen, he seems to be much better than everyone else at using Hero's Command Selection, which I think is necessary in order to optimally play him. If an AI could play Hero and optimally select the best command quickly, then Hero would be top tier for sure, potentially even the best character in the game. Humans aren't as optimal as AI, and even with practice it's very hard to optimally select the best spell for the situation (or cancel the menu if that's optimal). I think, optimally, played, Hero could be top tier.

So... Why aren't people playing Hero? There are a few reasons, one being that actually reaching this level of play is incredibly hard. While Parappa seems to be better at using the menu than other Hero players (better than Salem, too) he seems to struggle to actually reach top level of play. Top players are disincentivized to pick up Hero, not only is he one of the hardest characters to master, RNG also plays a large part in his kit, even at top level. Why play a difficult character that sometimes puts you at a disadvantage because you were unlucky, when you can play a much easier top tier that doesn't have that issue? Top players do not benefit from increasing the amount of RNG added to the game, so why would they play Hero?

Ultimately it's hard to say how good Hero is at a practical level, since the best Hero mains aren't exactly top 50 players (not to diss Parappa but he hasn't exactly done well at majors, as far as I know). Most of it will end up being a mixture of watching high level Hero mains and theory crafting, which is probably not as reliable as watching top level character mains and theory crafting and looking at actual results. Still, Hero has some many incredibly tools (mainly his specials), all of his specials are very good (up-B would be much worse if Zoom didn't exist, though, with Zoom edgeguarding Hero becomes much less reliable). Nearly any character would love to have Hero's down-B, side-B, and neutral-B.

For the time being, I would put him in high tier. Maybe he could be top tier but we will likely never know for sure, since I don't foresee a top level player actually maining Hero. Right now, Salem is probably the best Hero player, while Parappa is probably the best Hero player. If Salem went all in on Hero and decided to master him and the use of Command Selection then we could be in for a ride, but I don't think he's going to do that.
I agree Hero's high tier but I think that's as far as he goes. His reward for landing some command menu spells is ludicrously high but that comes at the price of luck, MP and poor frame data. His specials are excellent but limited. Hero, by design, is a very polarizing character.
I also agree Salem is the better player but Parappa is the better Hero.
My boy Gackt showing us what Ness Undertale can do, beating Cosmos 3-2.
What tournament is this?
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
763
I agree Hero's high tier but I think that's as far as he goes. His reward for landing some command menu spells is ludicrously high but that comes at the price of luck, MP and poor frame data. His specials are excellent but limited. Hero, by design, is a very polarizing character.
I also agree Salem is the better player but Parappa is the better Hero.

What tournament is this?
2GG: Kongo Saga; a lot of crazy things are going on there.
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
763
2GG: Kongo Saga Results:

1. MKLeo :ultjoker:
2. Tweek :ultwario:|:ultwolf::ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker:
3. Maister :ultgnw:
4. Light :ultfox:
5. Gluttony :ultwario:
5. T :ultlink:
7. Samsora :ultpeach: | :ultzss:
7. Lea :ultgreninja:
9. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultpalutena::ultrosalina:
9. Tea :ultpacman:|:ultdk:
9. WaDi :ultrob:|:ultwiifittrainer:
9. Nairo :ultpalutena:|:ultzss:
13. Goblin :ultroy:
13. Kameme :ultmegaman:
13. Kome :ultshulk:
13. Gackt :ultness:
17. Shogun :ultsnake:
17. Ned :ultpokemontrainerf:
17. Kuro :ultzss:
17. Shuton :ultolimar:
17. Cosmos :ultinkling:
17. Umeki :ultdaisy:
17. Rivers :ultchrom::ultdiddy:
17. Zackray :ultjoker::ultrob:|:ultmario:
25. Pandarian :ultpokemontrainerf:
25. Fatality :ultfalcon:
25. Kola :ultroy:|:ultcloud:
25. Wrath :ultsonic:
25. Klaatu :ultolimar:
25. Locus :ult_terry:|:ultridley::ultken::ultpalutena:
25. ProtoBanham :ultlucina:
25. Big D :ulticeclimbers:
33. ZekeTRP :ultyoshi:
33. Myran :ultolimar:
33. T3 DOM :ultrichter:
33. ven :ultzelda:
33. Eon :ultjoker:
33. OmegaRugal :ultcloud:|:ultjoker: (I'm not sure why :ultjoker: is displayed on the Wiki, he used Cloud to beat AC, Shogun, and Prodigy according to Sparg0)
33. Mr. E :ultlucina:
33. Nito :ultken:
33. Tsu :ultlucario:
33. Twinkle :ultdiddy:
33. Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
33. quiK :ultsamus:
33. Suarez :ultyoshi:
33. Riddles :ult_terry::ultjoker:
33. Nietono :ultpichu:
33. Nicko :ultshulk:
49. Legit :ultdiddy:
49. AC :ultsnake:
49. Eim :ultjoker:
49. BestNess :ultness::ultpalutena:
49. Larry Lurr :ultwolf:|:ultfalco:
49. Lui$ :ultfox:
49. KiraFlax :ultdarkpit::ultrob:
49. Firehao :ultdiddy:
49. Trela :ultbanjokazooie::ulthero:
49. Sonix :ultsonic:
49. 0mart :ultsnake:
49. Elegant :ultluigi:
49. Runes :ultdk:
49. Sparg0 :ultcloud::ultinkling:
49. Razo :ultpeach:
49. Ross :ultbanjokazooie::ultlink:

Notable players out earlier:

65. Abadango :ultpalutena:
65. KEN :ultsonic:
65. Prodigy :ultmario:
65. Stroder :ultrichter::ultroy:
65. VoiD :ultsheik::ultpichu:
97. Sonido :ultsonic:
129. Kept :ultvillager:
 
Last edited:

BitBitio

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
194
Biggest surprises gotta be T, Maister, and Lea making top 8 and the fact that Tweek relegated PT and Joker to secondaries.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,153
Location
Germany
I'll never get how people and players put Sheik above Zelda when one of the best Sm4sh Sheiks with VoiD still can't get her to work after like one year.
Sheik's definitely better than Ganondorf, though. However I feel like all three should get a buff.

Weird comparison, but both are TLoZ characters and they all need more love :p.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,235
Location
United States of Russia
I'll never get how people and players put Sheik above Zelda when one of the best Sm4sh Sheiks with VoiD still can't get her to work after like one year.
Sheik's definitely better than Ganondorf, though. However I feel like all three should get a buff.

Weird comparison, but both are TLoZ characters and they all need more love :p.
I've been playing :ultganondorf: a lot in friendlies lately. Ganon's one of the worst characters in the game but even so he's not complete trash. He has 2 things going for him: big hit boxes and high reward on hit. Imagine you're playing rock/paper/scissors but the opponent wins if they pick the same option or the winning option. They basically have a 2 in 3 chance of winning. It seems pretty bad but that's not the whole picture. They have to win 15 games and you only have to win 10. That's Ganon. He struggles but has high reward when he makes the right call. He can win a stock by landing 3 hits. The problem with this metaphor is Ganon can be gimped at almost any %. If you can land a clean Nair on him offstage he's dead. So that takes away a lot of his perks of being a super heavyweight.

:ultsheik: is on the other end of the same metaphor; she wins 2 of three calls but has to win many more interactions due to low reward on hit. I agree Sheik's better than Ganon.
 
Top Bottom