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Oh most definitely, I think Pikachu has been overrated since Smash 4. While Pikachu's ability to kill has increased and Tjolt is better as block pressure the same range issues apply and with the level of disjoints characters have now I believe most can either force Pikachu into a poor jump or hit a Tjolt, extend a hitbox, and hit the character in endlag.
One interesting thing i've noticed is that Joker seems way more agressive than manyI should've clarified that the disqualifications were decisions made by the brothers. I imagine they either didn't feel like fighting, or they just wanted to share the victory together. For anyone who cares, Memewas on the Winner's Side of GFs, while Joker was on the Loser's Side.
Pfffftttt, that made my day XD
But yeah, here's the archived stream of the tournament for whoever's interested:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515293753
These are the timestamps for when Joker used
1:02:30
10:56:48
12:43:08
players. A lot of ppl play him very passively, even if they aren't thoughtlessly spamming projectiles for no reason, sometimes not even trying to edgeguard or get close. Joker constantly tries to mess opponents with his movement and tries to get in the opponnet's face quite often. Hell, he even got shield break in the 1st game on stream, and this is something K. Rool usually has a lot of problem with despite DSmash huge Shield damage. Not to mention all "easy stuff" that a looooot of people seem to forget (Gut Check, Up Air for recovery etc.). It basically looks like he is playing on the fast forward. :DCan you even use up air to recover? Is there any net gain with the air he gets vs the end lag?One interesting thing i've noticed is that Joker seems way more agressive than many
You can move somewhat horizontally while doing it, and since it a) increases your height for a moment and b) has belly armor, this can let you get closer to the stage so you don't have to use his jump or Up B prematurely (for example) or somewhat stall your fall (you can actually see Joker doing that a lot on this stream). Also, keep in mind they somewhat reduced the end lag on Up Air long ago, not by much, but it's enough to let it be used offstage and not lead to SD.
Thinkaman
): how many people here would appreciate a video series from me talking about the meta and teaching high-level concepts and matchups? This is the only thread series I've basically ever posted in since I joined smashboards years ago, so I'll do it based on your opinions. Thanks for your time (p.s. if you don't want to clutter the thread with off-topic posts please message me directly or just hit Like).
I think you'd be great at it! Go for it!I'm gonna go ahead and use the Pika discussion opportunity to ask something fairly off-topic (sorry
Yeah it's mostly just to gain some extra horizontal distance and stalling potential, but that's about it.
It doesn't need to be across the stage, as long as it's a proper buffered FH jolt and doesn't hit in the air it will confirm.
I'm gonna go ahead and use the Pika discussion opportunity to ask something fairly off-topic (sorry
. People do tend to overrate some character for some time and then switch to another one, but it is still likely in my top 10 (at least for now). But at the same time, I'm glad that's the thing. No one has a definite answer for the meta / tier list. It makes discussions and this whole thread one of more interesting to read.
I think there is more of a simple solution to it.Hi, I noticed you had some issues with the OrionStats thing. I think your characterization is a bit hostile and I'm free after some stuff I needed to do with my dad, so I'll respond to this and a few messages you had directed to this a while back (I'm rarely active here, I generally just lurk.)
For one, you can definitely argue otherwise, and people have. My work is inherently amateur and serves to give a "general" idea of who is doing well in the metagame. I do like to represent it like this, but the idea that I'd only represent it like that is wrong. I've drug my feet a bit at a few points in the year, but I've made larger projects known - I intend to do a lot after Kongo Saga to analyze the first year of Ultimate to the best of my ability. This includes looking at character presence in a number of ways, not just the regional+national scores.
For two, the lack of a public results sheet is a matter of time commitment. The google sheet I use links directly to the smash.gg pages. I intend to probably have a text tab for results so they can be publicly looked at since I often do the job of looking through VODs of recent events. This is good in the sense that my database now links to the actual events, but bad in the sense that it removes the characters.
I do have a word file with the characters that I will probably make public once I start releasing year 1 data and for 2020 I'll be more active in relaying results since I think I can manage to copy & paste from my word file week-to-week.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, the info given is pretty clear. Point values are determined by placements with a lot of meandering about on details. Co-maining, secondaries, etc. The methodology tab is most incomplete in relation to the TTS itself, as in, player values getting updated when people top 4 majors. This'll be more clearly relayed since part of the reason it isn't clear is player values by power rankings external to the USA change a lot. My fix for this was to have a stable 6 month long PR for many of the 11 "super-regions." Canada has one, Middle East has one, but areas like AUS, MX, AP, EU, etc. don't.
To address earlier messages you posted, you seem to take issues with how echoes are handled. This is a consequence of the "Echo" term being very inconsistent even from the development staff. In this case, I separate based on the metagame rather than what the developers laid out, because Smash history in general rarely adheres to the intentions of aforementioned staff, wherever they exist.
Echoes:
For some mergings, the justification is very simple. Simon & Richter are effectively the same character outside of property differences. Daisy & Peach are merged for similar reasons. The Dark counterparts are slightly more sketchy because differences exist. However, in the case of the Samuses, these are very minimal, and both iterations are regularly played by top mains of the character.
The Pits were merged after July because the character's results are near nonexistent and most people who use one use the other. Here, we run into situations where if a player co-mained both, I'd need to count both, but that'd be kind of silly to double the value of a character when that character is so similar to their counterpart that it really only matters for specific matchups (if at all, since Pit's core doesn't revolve around electroshock arm.) Arrows are the most MU dependent aspect of Pit, to my knowledge. I don't see the point in separating what is essentially a different mode-select for same-tiered characters nobody uses, especially when their separation in Smash 4, something I had public documentation over for years, yielded nothing of interest.
Marth and Lucina weren't merged because there is a very public and acknowledged understanding - at this point - that they are very different due to Marth's tipper mechanic. This is more stated than it was in Smash 4, to the extent that Marth is a much worse character and sees very little use. This is attested by MKLeo and seemingly every notable Marth from Smash 4 going into Ultimate, and MKLeo's attempts to make Marth work individually were very mixed at Summit and led him to essentially drop the character.
Lucina is almost objectively more consistent and reliable across the majority of her moveset. This is distinct from individual move differences or small quirks seen in the Pits or Samuses, respectively, and warrants a separation both to see how Marth operates by himself and because he's just noticeably different.
Roy/Chrom aren't merged because there is nowhere near enough playerbase crossover to reasonably justify it. There are a set of Roy mains, and there are a set of Chrom mains, with limited overlap to my knowledge.) I am doing a PR analysis by the start of 2020, and I'll take this back if there's a serious overlap, but among top Roy/Chrom mains the overlap has thus far been limited. Adding this to the similar major differences between the two swordsmen seen with Marth/Lucina (only without a viability gap), it again seems reasonable to keep them separate.
Ken/Ryu are again emblematic of the inconsistencies seen in what even defines an echo, but not to belabor the point, they are often separated by entire tiers. While there is actual overlap between shoto mains, this could reasonably be seen as the result of many former Ryu mains keeping him around while playing Ken, the generally agreed superior pick between the two.
The criteria is context dependent on the metagame and that's probably how it should be (instead of a total adherence to what the staff intended) since it means I'm operating a TTS for the metagame in the boundaries of that metagame. Keeping them separate by principal introduces problems in case of merged instances for reasons I brought up with the Pits - you're risking the inflating of results. Like, if Samsora woke up one day and decided he'd main both Peach and Daisy, and every subsequent result was to count both of them separately, I'd be inflating that individual entity's results based on nothing besides what amounts to an alternate costume slot.
It is far less headache inducing to just go with what people generally determine to be in the case in the context of the meta when it comes to merging echoes in results. Some warrant it, some don't, and it's easier to understand the reasons why than to go in blind on merged echoes when counting results.
did get 4th at Dreamhack, which is a very good result for a solo . , VinS and PEW off the top of my head. in Smash4. He also said that she can't do anything if the opponent doesn't jump and has a very bad opinion of her.. is a really bad character so you're not allowed to make any kind of execution error (even if they were good, it would be very punishing to miss something).would probably be the second hardest character in my opinion due to having Luma to control and everything it implies (desyncs with attack cancelling, for instance), with being very close (the last 2 not being exactly mechanically demanding, but requiring TONS of knowledge)....
ProtoBanham is very good.
Also Oryon, who was #4 on the last French PR. The tournament was two entrants away from being a C-tier on the PGR, poor Leffen, his one tournament win and it was so close to being PGR but not quite.Rage
Although it wasn't exactly a stacked tournament, he had wins on Armada
MkLeo has been playing Lucina a fair amount actually, often using her against Joker's worse match ups, and he does think that Lucina is Top 10, which is perfectly reasonable considering the consistency of the character, and we can't forget about ProtoBanHam, he got 5th at EVO and is very very good at the game.
I've seen quite a bit of discussion about the hardest character, there isn't ANY character who comes even CLOSE to
New techs keep being found every week even after a year, there are some techs that no one have implemented to their gameplay (even though they'd be really good), they have loads of tech that require difficult inputs or tight windows : desyncing off of a hard landing lag - which you get after autocancelling an aerial - is a 1 frame window, there are some turnaround desyncs that I can't even do despite having learned almost every advanced technique since Brawl.
And don't even get me started on their conversions, it requires both knowledge (everything is character specific) and execution (there are some unique inputs). The D-Throw (Roll) [N-air] (SideB) [Regrab] + (any follow-up from cheerless D-Throw)* that you all saw on Twitter is very easy in comparison but very inconsistent due to Squall Hammer having an atrociously bad hitbox, so it shouldn't really be done most of the time.
It also doesn't help that
*[ stuff ] means Popo does it, while ( stuff ) means Nana does it.
Then we start to have pretty technical characters that aren't as demanding as the 5 characters above, such as
are the hardest character to play in this game and I also agree that they aren't very good characters. Most people seem to think that they have hidden top tier potential and while I will say they aren't extremely horrible characters (not or levels of bad), I think people aren't considering that Ice Climbers have other weaknessses in this game other than just being difficult to play. Their hitboxes are mediocre, their combos require precise setups that may be character specific, Nana is stupid and unreliable, and they can be extremely easy to combo and separate for a lot of characters. Their matchup spread is also pretty bad with several mid/low/bottom tiers having Ice Climbers as one of their best matchups such as while a lot of top and high tiers can be nearly unwinnable like who have the options to run away or outrange the Ice Climbers at almost any time. Maybe in a year or two will be a high mid tier or a high tier but for right now, my opinion of them isn't very high. on there as well and maybe take and off but that's just my personal opinion here. and are though.
Yeah, the lower you go down the list, the worse it gets. Again, it's outdated by a few months, a lot of people voting probably aren't very into competitive play some characters have new tech associated with them, and some matchups are considered worse or better than before, but it's interesting to see how hard a lot of people think characters are to play.
Pretty sure it's the former based on what I'm seeing here. If it's hardest to master then it definitely seems less fitting.
I get the impression it's from a relatively low level player perspective. There's a big difference between entry level elite and playing at a tournament level or the higher end of the GSP spectrum where the tournament players and dedicated mains reside.
I think you've focused too much on the "one hit break" aspect and ignored what it actually implies.
breaking through dash attack with flames. Situational? Maybe, but i don't think it would be that unlikely if people knew about that and K. Rool would be more common. Not to mention many attacks of other heavies or heavy hitters, like , which you could see in the Twitter post the at the previous page of this thread. Also, right after release of Ultimate, there was a clip showing breaking 's belly at the very start of the match. I can't find it at the moment, but i believe that was Up Smash (or maybe Neutral Air after some hits? Although im pretty it was the first hit on belly armor, i might remember it wrong after a year or so). Needles to say, Falcon got a free stock very early. Just because you tried to land with a move that was designed for it (not counting its landing lag, but that's a completely different topic).'s Knee or 's UpSmash? Now you can only take like what, 4% dmg not counting regeneration? This means almost every attack those two have will break it now. And this is disregarding all the other damage you might take in previous trades. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if that just meant you got hit and lost that interaction. But no, you get basically a shield break that gives your opponent all the time in the world to hit you with whatever they want. So if your opponent feels like landing a fully powered FSmash near the ledge to kill you at 70% or so, you can't do much about it. options, in addition to risking instant stock loss if you ignore it? Nair, FTilt, Up Smash, Upair, Down Smash, Dash attack, even Dair - all those moves use Belly Armor. Which means if you tank any huge dmg with it, you might hestitate to use them, playing far more passively than it is optimal. and have to wait for Pikimins to come back without performing attacks that use them, go with and you can't get all your ink by charging, but you must wait for it to slowly get to acceptable levels etc. And none of these would be as severe as "you get shield break because you tried to use your moves". should definetely be punished for overrelying on it. But in it's current state, you can get punished by many characters not for abusing it, but just for using it. Not gonna go with numbers, but the easiest solution would be to simply make it scale with 1v1 like moves. I believe someone said that the whole idea behind 28% + 0,2% is actually to let survive the Falcon Punch, which makes a lot of sense. That would also mean that you can basically tank every regular attack once and still have some HP to take weaker moves. With that, could actually throw his moves in every matchup without the risk of instant death for just using them. You know, like basically every other character in the game?
But this is also why Ken's existence is puzzling to me.
This goes into the issue with Smash as a whole - going for characters that require mastery/focusing on a wide option tree is really only for esoteric means.
K Rool never needed to be nerfed to begin with. I would be completely fine with this buff.
In a nutshell, it's a much bigger risk then it needs to be on a (bottom 10 at best) character who already has very limited options due to his frame data and other unnecessary gimmicks like Krown and Gut Check...
The cons just outweigh the pros to not giving Belly Armor more health...
Like would 40 HP really hurt the game's balance and/or fun factor.
was very hyped up to be a character that break out of the bars of bottom five, and many of us saw that Puff may potentially break out of low tier., in the other hand, is reaping up the benefits of the 6.1.0 buffs much more effectively, with improved results across the board and even a few very impressive showings at bigger events for a character previously perceived as bottom 5, maybe even the worst character, prior to 6.1.0. is getting more instances (albeit still very limited, especially in comparison to Kirby) of success after the update, with Tweek fooling around with him and Joker using mostly K. Rool to semi-win a Mexican regional.
Don't get me wrong, I don't always agree with Sakurai, far from it. His design decisions are not always my favorite, as many well know I authored the "Buff Samus in smash4 video" with the members of this forum when she was literally bottom tier in 4.
Welp, to be fair: that much HP would make breaking Belly Armor basically impossible for lighter characters like
or (can they even inflict 30 damage on it, leave alone 40 with regeneration?). Not that they have much trouble with the current ... but if he gets other buffs (like we hope so), this might be a completely different matter. Although i admit part of me just wants to slam "50 HP on Belly Armor!" and care not for anything or anyone.
I agree with what you're saying, except for WFT, I see them more as a niche counterpick that is also played normally if you catch my drift. In a tourney setting I'd expect to see Inkling, Pichu, Ike, etc, I never really expect to see a WFT in my bracket. Though that could just be my experience.
Ah that would make sense. I was wondering because outside switzerland (whom has two) I dont know of any PR wii fits. And I dont think Sinogara is PR in France and hes probably the most notable one in europe. So I was wondering where the gap came from.
