Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[boysilver400]

And when Kirby gets 17th and 13th at A and B tiers "idk guys, still not good"

This isn’t just with Kirby. People still underrate characters like anddespite their placings at majors because “Bowser jr got so many nerfs” or “Robins too slow” or...I don’t even know why people still sleep on Duck Hunt.

Then we have everyone fearmongering over saying he’s the undisputed best in the game when he isn’t even top 20 in terms of results. I get that results don’t mean everything but but when he isn’t even top 20...I just don’t see how he can be #1 in the game outside of theoretically having the best Mu chart in the game when Joker exists.

I know a lot of people talk about how people put too much of their opinions on results but lately I’ve been seeing the exact opposite. I’ve seen tier lists that came out a few months ago with the December bottom 3 and people still put above characters with far more results because of his laggy punishable smash attacks. MU charts aren’t any better because top player mu charts put the same few chars like Kirby and many Other low tiers(but mostly Kirby) in +2 despite probably never facing a competent player of said character and the Mice, Joker and Palu at -2, and the mid tiers are -1 or even or something like that. Matchup charts have pretty much become glorified tier lists at this point and has caused people to think that top tier/low tier matchups are 100% always in the top tiers favor.

At this point I’m sick of tier lists and matchup charts because of this. At least on Twitter, anyway.

 

[TennisBall]

This isn’t just with Kirby. People still underrate characters like anddespite their placings at majors because “Bowser jr got so many nerfs” or “Robins too slow” or...I don’t even know why people still sleep on Duck Hunt.

Then we have everyone fearmongering over saying he’s the undisputed best in the game when he isn’t even top 20 in terms of results. I get that results don’t mean everything but but when he isn’t even top 20...I just don’t see how he can be #1 in the game outside of theoretically having the best Mu chart in the game when Joker exists.

I know a lot of people talk about how people put too much of their opinions on results but lately I’ve been seeing the exact opposite. I’ve seen tier lists that came out a few months ago with the December bottom 3 and people still put above characters with far more results because of his laggy punishable smash attacks. MU charts aren’t any better because top player mu charts put the same few chars like Kirby and many Other low tiers(but mostly Kirby) in +2 despite probably never facing a competent player of said character and the Mice, Joker and Palu at -2, and the mid tiers are -1 or even or something like that. Matchup charts have pretty much become glorified tier lists at this point and has caused people to think that top tier/low tier matchups are 100% always in the top tiers favor.

At this point I’m sick of tier lists and matchup charts because of this. At least on Twitter, anyway.

People are sleeping on ? Raito got 5th on EVO?!
I repeat, 5th. At. EVO.
The character may be hard to play and rare to find but cmon that's just ridiculous.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This isn’t just with Kirby. People still underrate characters like anddespite their placings at majors because “Bowser jr got so many nerfs” or “Robins too slow” or...I don’t even know why people still sleep on Duck Hunt.

Then we have everyone fearmongering over saying he’s the undisputed best in the game when he isn’t even top 20 in terms of results. I get that results don’t mean everything but but when he isn’t even top 20...I just don’t see how he can be #1 in the game outside of theoretically having the best Mu chart in the game when Joker exists.

I know a lot of people talk about how people put too much of their opinions on results but lately I’ve been seeing the exact opposite. I’ve seen tier lists that came out a few months ago with the December bottom 3 and people still put above characters with far more results because of his laggy punishable smash attacks. MU charts aren’t any better because top player mu charts put the same few chars like Kirby and many Other low tiers(but mostly Kirby) in +2 despite probably never facing a competent player of said character and the Mice, Joker and Palu at -2, and the mid tiers are -1 or even or something like that. Matchup charts have pretty much become glorified tier lists at this point and has caused people to think that top tier/low tier matchups are 100% always in the top tiers favor.

At this point I’m sick of tier lists and matchup charts because of this. At least on Twitter, anyway.

To be fair. I think only ESAM thinks is the #1 character in the game. Even in this most recent tier list he had Pikachu with 3 other characters as "unordered" at the very top. As far as say Kirbys recent good resuts
ls.

Pikachu is ..kinda comparable to Shulk at this point. I mean looking at all his tools, options and data on paper makes him seem godlike. But we can theorycraft and talk about "potential" all day but then there is issue of actual resutls.
But on the other side. It can be schararacters like Pikachu and Shulk are more difficult to bring out their full potential which can be offputting to a lot of players. Especially when there are easier top-tier characters to pick up and play .

Then again just determine how good a character is by resutls Is not the right way either.

Is a character most people believe is top 5 at Least. However after top Snake main is no longer around, no other mains have been able to get the same success. MVD has been in a notable slump as of late, and Salem often uses many other characters to the Theory vs Results argument

However, despite still say Snake is top 5 or 3 material, just because of the strength of his options and previous proven results. In short the is no easy, or possibly even right answer for the theory versus results argument.

.

 

[BitBitio]

People are sleeping on ? Raito got 5th on EVO?!
I repeat, 5th. At. EVO.
The character may be hard to play and rare to find but cmon that's just ridiculous.

I guarantee people underrate this character. I mean, to many, he (She? It? They?) is sitting somewhere in mid tier, occasionally even low tier. Yet clearly, with that kind of result backing it up (Top 8 at an S++ tier) this character is high tier, easily. People sleep on this character. They underrate it a LOT. Even if you acknowledge Raito's placement, its results are lacking (by which I mean, its a somewhat rare pick).
The reason for this? I don't know. Is Duck Hunt too campy? Too janky? Is the sharp learning curve a red flag? Right now, we don't know. It's a sleeper pick for sure.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I guarantee people underrate this character. I mean, to many, he (She? It? They?) is sitting somewhere in mid tier, occasionally even low tier. Yet clearly, with that kind of result backing it up (Top 8 at an S++ tier) this character is high tier, easily. People sleep on this character. They underrate it a LOT. Even if you acknowledge Raito's placement, its results are lacking (by which I mean, its a somewhat rare pick).
The reason for this? I don't know. Is Duck Hunt too campy? Too janky? Is the sharp learning curve a red flag? Right now, we don't know. It's a sleeper pick for sure.

I feel like a lot of campy characters get reduced to being janky and gimmicky.
Same thing with Samus. Definitely high-tier but projectile-based characters are just "boring".

Or is there another reason?

 

[boysilver400]

To be fair. I think only ESAM thinks is the #1 character in the game. Even in this most recent tier list he had Pikachu with 3 other characters as "unordered" at the very top.

I’ve seen many people such as Pandarian and Dark Wizzy say he’s number one in the game and everyone seems to commonly agree that he’s at least top 3.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, I'm still of the opinion that just because someone is a professional player, their word is far from law. I mean, how many pros have put out questionable tier lists or at least lists with questionable placements. And, yes, stigma is a thing. Look at poor old Bowser.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Something worth keeping in mind: Most top players do not choose their character based purely on whether that characters it top 3 or not. It's entirely plausible that Pikachu is #1 in the game despite not really having the results to back it up, and if MkLeo had chosen Pikachu instead of Joker I bet many people would be pushing the "Pikachu is the best" narrative. Lots of top players either stuck to their old Smash 4 main or switched to a newcomer or Brawl veteran (or Palutena, who is more or less a newcomer considering her massive buffs). Pikachu didn't have a huge playerbase in Smash 4, so it's not too surprising he doesn't have a huge playerbase in Ultimate either. It's not like top players were flocking to Peach or Lucina, despite them also being very strong.

Let's look at PGR season 1, top 20:

MkLeo going with a newcomer, Joker. Before that he primarily played Lucina, similar to Marth, one of his Smash 4 characters. Tweek has also been looking into "new" characters such as Pokémon Trainer, and early on Wario (who was significantly buffed and kind of "new" considering he was mid tier in Smash 4).

Marss, Samsora, Shuton, Light, Myran, Glutonny, Tea, ESAM, kameme, Raito stuck with their Smash 4 mains.

Ally and MVD went back to their Brawl main, Snake.

Dabuz went with a mix of old (Olimar and Rosalina) and new (Palutena), lately he hasn't been playing much Palutena though.

VoiD, with Sheik dropped, went with a new character, Pichu. It doesn't seem too implausible to me that he would've gone with Pikachu if the Pichu-nerfs happened in patch 1.1 instead of 3.0, but Pichu started out in top tier. These days it's a bit unclear what VoiD will end up sticking with.

Cosmos dropped Corrin (who was massively nerfed) for a newcomer, Inkling.

Zackray dropped Corrin for a Brawl veteran, Wolf, and later a bunch of different characters (such as Joker, Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.).

Rivers (aka Shoyo James) went with a newcomer, Chrom.

So those top players who made major shifts tended to either go back to some old character, a newcomer, or a massively buffed character (like Palutena or Wario, to some extent). While Pikachu was buffed he wasn't buffed that much, and he's arguably one of the hardest characters to play, so it's not too surprising that few top players have switched to Pikachu. ESAM got #16 in PGR Season 1 and is likely on his way to make top 20 for Season 2 again, which does indicate that he's doing somewhat better compared to in Smash 4. It's plausible that he's just a better player now but it's also fairly likely that Pikachu's buff play a role (as well as nerfs to other characters). Pikachu should be a solid lock for top 5 right now, I really don't see why he wouldn't be.

 

[Rizen]

's good and deserves a spot in top 5 ...except there are about 20 characters who deserve it more. It's easy to look at a strong character like Pika in a vacuum and say "this character has good vortexing, gimping, a great recovery and projectile while having no glaring weaknesses". But then we could have a similar look at most of the top 20 and a lot of them have stronger points than Pikachu. Pikachu can be hard for characters who don't have an answer to his vortexing. He's a great counterpick character. In a lot of MUs though other top tiers are stronger. I think the pikachu hype comes from A: ESAM being ESAM and B: characters who don't have a good answer to pikachu.
I listed Pika's strengths but there are areas he falls shot in. Pika doesn't control space nearly as well as several other high and top tiers with his poor disjoint. His KO power is a bit on the weaker side; Fsmash isn't going to KO super early. He's light. A good portion of Pika's game is absorbable, which is partially why he struggles with Ness. While Pika's projectile is good for dealing damage it doesn't kill, setup for combos and gets out-spammed by better zoners.

Also I don't see how Pika's one of the hardest characters to play. Olimar must micro manage his pikmin order, Snake has timers and C4 to keep track of, Shulk's movement and combos change based on arts, YL has bomb timers throwing projectiles at different angles and a tight combo tree, etc.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pikachu, arguably, does quite well (+1, potentially) versus Fox, Palutena, Lucina, Joker, Pichu, Wolf, wins vs most mid and low tiers (and a good portion of high tier), likely loses to Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, and Peach. Having three losing MUs can be a bit rough, I suppose, though none of them are all that common at a top level (at lower levels Ness could be a major issue, I guess). Pikachu might have the most +2 MUs in the game too, although at top level that barely matters (since most characters that lose -2 to Pikachu tend to be mid or low tier).

Also I don't see how Pika's one of the hardest characters to play.

Mastering Quick Attack is hard. Consistent RAR Thunder confirms doesn't seem all that easy either.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Also I don't see how Pika's one of the hardest characters to play. Olimar must micro manage his pikmin order, Snake has timers and C4 to keep track of, Shulk's movement and combos change based on arts, YL has bomb timers throwing projectiles at different angles and a tight combo tree, etc.

Izaw put it best in his new Art of Pikachu video where he said (I'm paraphrasing here) "Pikachu has so many good options that it can be hard to choose the best one sometimes."

 

[KirbySquad101]

It's true that 's an exceptionally hard character to play, between his Quick Attack play and NAir loops. That's said, I feel like there's like at least10 other characters you can make a case for being the "hardest" to play lol

Off the top of my head, what I can think of:

- mastering timing of grenades and keeping track of all your projectiles, particularly your C4.
- mastering SH-Float-Cancel
- mastering command inputs, and in the case of Ryu and Ken, mastering button sensitivity to get certain normals
- mastering Luma positioning, Luma desync, and a bunch of other Rosalina tech that I have no clue on
- knowing how to pick the most ideal command option quickly while managing your MP.
- knowing where to place your hydrants, knowing the angles to send it at
- managing your can while fighting at the same time
- properly utilizing desyncing for OoS'ing, pressuring, and combos
- learning bomb recovery and mastering Z-drop combos (this one would give anyone hand cramps)
- Monado Art canceling and management, and keeping track of which Monados you have access to.
- Pikmin management and making sure you have the most ideal Pikmin depending on what you want to do next
- FThrow combos (I'm not kidding btw, FThrow->FF NAir is so damn hard to pull off)
- mastering brutally tight combos that involve dragdown UAir loops, RAR BAirs, and Dash Cancel USmashes, all of which have very strict timing to them.

There's a bunch of others I'm missing, but you get the idea lol. I could be overstating how hard some of these are given that I play , a character that's fairly simple in terms of technical difficulty, but eh.

Salem's Bayo is still actually the best, IMO. The issue is, the last time he played her he could not find kills easily at all.

Also, that's crazy y'all are gonna be like "wow this char won a local over two non-PGR players, she has sauce maybe?"

And when Kirby gets 17th and 13th at A and B tiers "idk guys, still not good"

And I want to let you know not because I want to discuss the character with y'all (ever), but because I see your logic and it upsets me deeply.

THAT IS ALL

I imagine mains are feeling this rn; dude nearly wins an A Tier while 2 get top 12 at another A Tier, and most people still treat him like a mid tier gimmick lol.

That said, I feel like you can make a better case for than at least result-wise, because Bayo has been consistently okay since the beginning of the game's meta.

Since Season 1, we had:

- Geist place 33rd at Frostbite and Pound.
- Lima place 33rd at GENESIS 6 and 25th at Low Tier City 7.
- CaptainZack place 13th and 17th at Smasn n' Splash 5 and MomoCon respectively predominantly using Bayo (along with ), as well as 33rd at EVO using only Bayo.
- Shadow_PR place 17th at Low Tier City (A Tier), and 2nd at Super Smash Fight Club.

Prior to his recent success, Kirby really only had Jesuischoq's 33rd placement at Albion 4, so in that case, I feel like that's probably the basis behind people's skepticism regarding Kirby's newfound achievements in comparison to Bayo's.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I will adjust my statement to "one of the hardest top tiers to play". I don't think it's very controversial that Pikachu is harder to play at a top level than, say, Palutena, Inkling, Wolf, Lucina, Wario, Roy and Chrom. You could make a case for Joker, Peach, Snake, and Pokémon Trainer though (although Pokémon Trainer is probably easier at a top level than Pikachu, since the individual Pokémon are fairly easy to play). Many (most?) of the notable Snake mains mained him in Brawl, many (most?) of the notable Peach mains mained her in 4, Pokémon Trainer is almost an entirely new character in practice (and also wasn't available in Smash 4), and Joker is a newcomer.

While writing this someone posted a response, so I guess I'll respond to that as well.

Off the top of my head, what I can think of:

Most of the characters you listed are not top tier, only Snake, Peach, and maybe Shulk. Shulk is probably a similar case as Pikachu, actually, a fairly difficult character that doesn't have as many players as he should have. I could see Peach being harder. As for Snake, based on what I've heard Snake mains say I'd be inclined to say that once you're used to playing Snake at a high level he's easier than Pikachu.

Hero might be the hardest character in the game, probably one of the reasons people tend to underestimate him. It'll take a while before anyone gets good enough at selecting down-B commands to truly show Hero's potential. I could see him being top tier if someone did, although due to human limitations he might be just high tier in practice, or maybe even high-mid, hard to say at this point.

I imagine mains are feeling this rn; dude nearly wins an A Tier while 2 get top 12 at another A Tier, and most people still treat him like a mid tier gimmick lol.

Unless you want like the #33rd best character to be in "high tier" we have to be a bit more restrictive based on results. I don't think Sonic is top 25, but I could see him being somewhere in high-mid tier though, he's probably not quite as mediocre as people once thought he was.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Play with Heart (B Tier)

1st: Nicko
2nd: Rivers
3rd: Pandarian
4th: Ouch!?
5th: Mr E
5th: Dark Wizzy
7th: Exodia
7th: Lemmon
9th: SpamCop
9th: Captain L
9th: Big D
9th: Infinity
13th: Signas
13th: Alphicans
13th: Active
13th: king_chris

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of characters with potential. Shulk finally won a decent sized event. Well its his best notable results so far.

 

[blackghost]

That said, I feel like you can make a better case for than at least result-wise, because Bayo has been consistently okay since the beginning of the game's meta.

Since Season 1, we had:

- Geist place 33rd at Frostbite and Pound.
- Lima place 33rd at GENESIS 6 and 25th at Low Tier City 7.
- CaptainZack place 13th and 17th at Smasn n' Splash 5 and MomoCon respectively predominantly using Bayo (along with ), as well as 33rd at EVO using only Bayo.
- Shadow_PR place 17th at Low Tier City (A Tier), and 2nd at Super Smash Fight Club.

Prior to his recent success, Kirby really only had Jesuischoq's 33rd placement at Albion 4, so in that case, I feel like that's probably the basis behind people's skepticism regarding Kirby's newfound achievements in comparison to Bayo's.

the bayo results arent that clean cut.

captain zack and lima both flip between bayo and peach and normally only used peach in deeper bracket play. only pulling out bayo for ROBs or out of desperation.
ShadowPR 2nd place was not a high level event.

Geist literally lost to the first person that knew the MU. badly.

a lot of these results were from early in ultimate when people were giving bayo entirely too much fear and respect.

unlike many other nerfed character playerbases the bayo playerbase was extremely loyal and they are talented players but i dont think its right to say bayo results have been OK especially when you are combining events from different seasons. If we were to do that even K rool results would look strong.

 

[KirbySquad101]

the bayo results arent that clean cut.

captain zack and lima both flip between bayo and peach and normally only used peach in deeper bracket play. only pulling out bayo for ROBs or out of desperation.
ShadowPR 2nd place was not a high level event.

Geist literally lost to the first person that knew the MU. badly.

a lot of these results were from early in ultimate when people were giving bayo entirely too much fear and respect.

unlike many other nerfed character playerbases the bayo playerbase was extremely loyal and they are talented players but i dont think its right to say bayo results have been OK especially when you are combining events from different seasons. If we were to do that even K rool results would look strong.

Ah, right, didn't really know when Lima/CaptainZack pulled out in tourneys, my mistake. Still, taking out Season, there's still CaptainZack's 33rd placement at EVO and Shadow_PR's 17th placement at Low Tier City 7 which is pretty good...? Okay, yeah, I'm reaching at this point.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me, we had a (Joker, yes the ) who just won a recent B Tier event (Bit Master MTY 8)... well sort of, it comes with two big asterisks:

1. Joker also used a little bit of and so he just didn't get 2nd with K Rool alone.
2. He and Meme were supposed to fight in Grands for first, but both ended up disqualifying given that the two are actually brothers. So I guess that means they both technically got first? If so, whew, also won his first B Tier event.

Bit Master MTY 8 (256 entrants) (Monterrey, Mexico)

2. Meme (DQ)
2. Joker | (DQ)
3. Wonf |
4. Sparg0
5. Ang
5. Genialo |
7. Necro
7. Kula Diamond
9. WaKa
9. Nery |
9. Cali
13. BestTaco
13. Osuka
13. Dozi
13. Kadez
17. Daige
17. Hitman
17. Celtic |
17. Atem
17. Leo (No, not MKLeo)
17. GTY-Pellon
17. Fizz
17. NEL

Unless you want like the #33rd best character to be in "high tier" we have to be a bit more restrictive based on results. I don't think Sonic is top 25, but I could see him being somewhere in high-mid tier though, he's probably not quite as mediocre as people once thought he was.

Even if we're putting a more restrictive barrier as to what passes for high tier results-wise... 's accomplished things most characters would dream of doing. So far he's:

- Won a B Tier
- Top 8'd at multiple A Tiers
- Won games off players including but not limited to: Tweek, Samsora, Salem, Shuton, Tea, Lea, and ProtoBanham

Honestly, that's not a bad record at all if you want to consider him a high tier threat, at least in my eyes anyway.

 

[Impax]

So not the most common of matchups but interesting nonetheless.
WFT trainer has picked up two notable wins against Terry today.

Signas beat Locus 3-0 (he went Ridley game 2)
And Stas beat Riddles 3-0 in grand finals at a monthly.

Seems like WFT getting to charge everything up off stage makes it hard for Terry. As WFT with a charged sun and deep breathing is very dangerous on stage.

 

[Rizen]

2. He and Meme were supposed to fight in Grands for first, but both ended up disqualifying given that the two are actually brothers.

That's dumb. We payed for Blood!!!

But still a good showing from K.Rool. I didn't know Joker played him. K.Rool's shown he can at least compete at a high level, although don't expect many results. He's probably not solo viable with too many devastating MUs like Snake.

 

[Planty]

I will adjust my statement to "one of the hardest top tiers to play". I don't think it's very controversial that Pikachu is harder to play at a top level than, say, Palutena, Inkling, Wolf, Lucina, Wario, Roy and Chrom. You could make a case for Joker, Peach, Snake, and Pokémon Trainer though (although Pokémon Trainer is probably easier at a top level than Pikachu, since the individual Pokémon are fairly easy to play). Many (most?) of the notable Snake mains mained him in Brawl, many (most?) of the notable Peach mains mained her in 4, Pokémon Trainer is almost an entirely new character in practice (and also wasn't available in Smash 4), and Joker is a newcomer.

While writing this someone posted a response, so I guess I'll respond to that as well.

Most of the characters you listed are not top tier, only Snake, Peach, and maybe Shulk. Shulk is probably a similar case as Pikachu, actually, a fairly difficult character that doesn't have as many players as he should have. I could see Peach being harder. As for Snake, based on what I've heard Snake mains say I'd be inclined to say that once you're used to playing Snake at a high level he's easier than Pikachu.

Hero might be the hardest character in the game, probably one of the reasons people tend to underestimate him. It'll take a while before anyone gets good enough at selecting down-B commands to truly show Hero's potential. I could see him being top tier if someone did, although due to human limitations he might be just high tier in practice, or maybe even high-mid, hard to say at this point.

Unless you want like the #33rd best character to be in "high tier" we have to be a bit more restrictive based on results. I don't think Sonic is top 25, but I could see him being somewhere in high-mid tier though, he's probably not quite as mediocre as people once thought he was.

I can't really see anybody other than as the most difficult character to play in this game. The character basically plays as a series of near frame perfect inputs (go try to do a special move after an attack cancel) stapled onto a bunch of Luma babysitting with mountains of obscure tech that becomes increasingly important as you reach higher levels of play (the Rosalina Discord looks more and more like the Shulk Discord every day with all the acronyms that keep getting invented). Her combo trees are incredibly tight as well. The more advanced combos generally require attack cancel aerials (lunar jumps) or attack cancel wavedashes (lunar dashes), which are very difficult to do consistently, and many combos require you to loop nair by hitting with Luma nair 1 into late hit Rosa nair. The spacing required for this is very very specific.

Also as a side note, her recovery is probably the most difficult to use in the game (sorry ). Go find me a Rosalina player who doesn't have a mini panic attack every time they're forced to recover vertically or do a b-reverse recovery (which for some reason uses the same input but with slightly different timings).

Combine this difficulty of use with her generally lackluster toolset, and it's not surprising she doesn't have many results outside of players who already used her in Smash 4.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

But still a good showing from K.Rool. I didn't know Joker played him. K.Rool's shown he can at least compete at a high level, although don't expect many results. He's probably not solo viable with too many devastating MUs like Snake.

Great to see the Kroc king place well, but he ain't going far without some serious help.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[TennisBall]

On a different topic, the new season of PGRU is coming very soon, so here's my list for people that should be on the PGR.
-Elegant()
-Nicko()
-RFang()
-Riddles()
-quiK()
-KEN()
-Wrath()
And of course....
Maister()
I'm probably forgetting some but there's a basic list of some of my picks.

 

[Idon]

Great to see the Kroc king place well, but he ain't going far without some serious help.

That seems par for the course for K Rool. Try to super armor high damage moves and you'll hit the armor limit pretty fast.

I think simply improving Rool's frame data overall will be more useful to him than letting K Rool not die on the off-chance K Rool tries to super-armor through Ike's FSmash.

 

[Zinith]

Ah, right, didn't really know when Lima/CaptainZack pulled out in tourneys, my mistake. Still, taking out Season, there's still CaptainZack's 33rd placement at EVO and Shadow_PR's 17th placement at Low Tier City 7 which is pretty good...? Okay, yeah, I'm reaching at this point.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me, we had a (Joker, yes the ) who just won a recent B Tier event (Bit Master MTY 8)... well sort of, it comes with two big asterisks:

1. Joker also used a little bit of and so he just didn't get 2nd with K Rool alone.
2. He and Meme were supposed to fight in Grands for first, but both ended up disqualifying given that the two are actually brothers. So I guess that means they both technically got first? If so, whew, also won his first B Tier event.

Bit Master MTY 8 (256 entrants) (Monterrey, Mexico)

2. Meme (DQ)
2. Joker | (DQ)
3. Wonf |
4. Sparg0
5. Ang
5. Genialo |
7. Necro
7. Kula Diamond
9. WaKa
9. Nery |
9. Cali
13. BestTaco
13. Osuka
13. Dozi
13. Kadez
17. Daige
17. Hitman
17. Celtic |
17. Atem
17. Leo (No, not MKLeo)
17. GTY-Pellon
17. Fizz
17. NEL



Even if we're putting a more restrictive barrier as to what passes for high tier results-wise... 's accomplished things most characters would dream of doing. So far he's:

- Won a B Tier
- Top 8'd at multiple A Tiers
- Won games off players including but not limited to: Tweek, Samsora, Salem, Shuton, Tea, Lea, and ProtoBanham

Honestly, that's not a bad record at all if you want to consider him a high tier threat, at least in my eyes anyway.

That's unfortunate for my boi. He was so close.

Kind of an odd rule too. What's the logic behind brothers not fighting?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I think simply improving Rool's frame data overall will be more useful to him than letting K Rool not die on the off-chance K Rool tries to super-armor through Ike's FSmash.

I'd love to agree, but you can't ignore this issue since there are many situations of K. Rool armoring a move he didn't mean to and get's his belly broken for it, or close to it. Considering Belly Armor is hard-linked to important moves like his N-Air, F-Tilt and D-Smash, it's kind of a big deal.

Case and point:

Buffing the Belly Armor's would go a long way.

 

[Rizen]

Great to see the Kroc king place well, but he ain't going far without some serious help.

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That video was somewhat deceptive. A lot of those attacks didn't do enough damage to shatter full belly armor and has a reflect counter that doesn't deplete his armor at all. There's no reason why he'd Ftilt Samus' charge shot.

His belly breaking is rarely an issue if you're not stupid about it. On occasion things like Lucas' Usmash (which has f1 invulnerability) have broken my K.Rool's belly during a DA but it's not often. The main thing the limit does is keeps him from being spammy with his armor.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

That video was somewhat deceptive. A lot of those attacks didn't do enough damage to shatter full belly armor and has a reflect counter that doesn't deplete his armor at all. There's no reason why he'd Ftilt Samus' charge shot.

I made that tweet and I can confirm they all one shot belly armor.

Also, Gut Check is laggy and doesn't cover above his head, so it's pretty unreliable at times and not a replacement for moves like N-Air.

His belly breaking is rarely an issue if you're not stupid about it. On occasion things like Lucas' Usmash (which has f1 invulnerability) have broken my K.Rool's belly during a DA but it's not often. The main thing the limit does is keeps him from being spammy with his armor.

Like I said before, you can't always account for moments of you using a move with BA, accidentally tanking an attack unintended and getting hard punished for that. If the punishment wasn't essentially a free hit on K. Rool, this would be much more bearable.

Think of this case:

K. Rool uses F-Tilt while his belly is a little busted, the opponent throws out a Smash Attack.
Oops, it hits his belly first and it broke.
The opponent get's a free kill and/or massive damage on him + free stage control.

Yeah, the crime doesn't exactly meet the requirements of the punishment...

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Those scenarios could happen, but would they occur often enough during a match to be considered a serious issue? At the moment, I don't think so.

 

[DunnoBro]

While Pika's projectile is good for dealing damage it doesn't kill, setup for combos and gets out-spammed by better zoners.

Jolt > Grab/Dash Attack is a thing. And with QA, while you can technically 'outzone' pikachu, him having one of the best zonebreaking tools in the game means he can shift the gameplan immediately if you actually commit to 'outzoning' him.

 

[Arthur97]

Ah, right, didn't really know when Lima/CaptainZack pulled out in tourneys, my mistake. Still, taking out Season, there's still CaptainZack's 33rd placement at EVO and Shadow_PR's 17th placement at Low Tier City 7 which is pretty good...? Okay, yeah, I'm reaching at this point.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me, we had a (Joker, yes the ) who just won a recent B Tier event (Bit Master MTY 8)... well sort of, it comes with two big asterisks:

1. Joker also used a little bit of and so he just didn't get 2nd with K Rool alone.
2. He and Meme were supposed to fight in Grands for first, but both ended up disqualifying given that the two are actually brothers. So I guess that means they both technically got first? If so, whew, also won his first B Tier event.

Bit Master MTY 8 (256 entrants) (Monterrey, Mexico)

2. Meme (DQ)
2. Joker | (DQ)
3. Wonf |
4. Sparg0
5. Ang
5. Genialo |
7. Necro
7. Kula Diamond
9. WaKa
9. Nery |
9. Cali
13. BestTaco
13. Osuka
13. Dozi
13. Kadez
17. Daige
17. Hitman
17. Celtic |
17. Atem
17. Leo (No, not MKLeo)
17. GTY-Pellon
17. Fizz
17. NEL



Even if we're putting a more restrictive barrier as to what passes for high tier results-wise... 's accomplished things most characters would dream of doing. So far he's:

- Won a B Tier
- Top 8'd at multiple A Tiers
- Won games off players including but not limited to: Tweek, Samsora, Salem, Shuton, Tea, Lea, and ProtoBanham

Honestly, that's not a bad record at all if you want to consider him a high tier threat, at least in my eyes anyway.

Wait, you can't fight if you're related?

 

[SwagGuy99]

Wait, you can't fight if you're related?

I saw someone somewhere say that it's probably just because they fight all the time and didn't feel like fighting again which makes sense I guess.

 

[Krysco]

I don't believe there's any rules against relatives playing against each other in tournament. Armada and Android have played in sets before and I wouldn't be surprised if the same holds true for Ally and Holy along with VyQ and cFive.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't believe there's any rules against relatives playing against each other in tournament. Armada and Android have played in sets before and I wouldn't be surprised if the same holds true for Ally and Holy along with VyQ and cFive.

I agree.

 

[Rizen]

I made that tweet and I can confirm they all one shot belly armor.

Also, Gut Check is laggy and doesn't cover above his head, so it's pretty unreliable at times and not a replacement for moves like N-Air.


Like I said before, you can't always account for moments of you using a move with BA, accidentally tanking an attack unintended and getting hard punished for that. If the punishment wasn't essentially a free hit on K. Rool, this would be much more bearable.

Think of this case:

K. Rool uses F-Tilt while his belly is a little busted, the opponent throws out a Smash Attack.
Oops, it hits his belly first and it broke.
The opponent get's a free kill and/or massive damage on him + free stage control.

Yeah, the crime doesn't exactly meet the requirements of the punishment...

Those scenarios could happen, but would they occur often enough during a match to be considered a serious issue? At the moment, I don't think so.

^This. There's not really any reason why K.Rool would belly armor attacks like Samus' charge shot when he can reflect it. If his belly armors' cracked I just don't Ftilt for a few seconds and jab works fine. I'm not saying belly armor breaking isn't a problem at all but it's very rare that happens to me and from freak things like DAing Lucas' Usmash.

Jolt > Grab/Dash Attack is a thing. And with QA, while you can technically 'outzone' pikachu, him having one of the best zonebreaking tools in the game means he can shift the gameplan immediately if you actually commit to 'outzoning' him.

I guess technically you could chase thunder jolt across the stage but it's a f19 move with 51 total frames and little hitstun. I agree Pika is one of the better zone breakers.

 

[ARISTOS]

gets dismantled by people knowing the matchup, dragging the game out, holding shield and waiting for her to stick out a bad limb and punishing her for it is way easier in this game now that her hitboxes are mortal and everyone has the disjoint/speed to either punish whiffs or combat her landings.

The character wins off the skill of her playerbase more than anything else IMO, she's definitely a character who could be much better with a couple gentle taps here and there, namely by making her more threatening in closing out stocks which would open up options for her.

I say gentle because the damage per conversion is still v high compared to other characters and so tuning too much could be problematic.

Outcamping is not really a thing, you want to stay at a range where Tjolt is not safe to throw out yet landing with fair/QA is risky. Pikachu's air movement is not good so within that space you can corner and air-to-air the character well. It may just be Peach privilege talking though.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I should've clarified that the disqualifications were decisions made by the brothers. I imagine they either didn't feel like fighting, or they just wanted to share the victory together. For anyone who cares, Meme was on the Winner's Side of GFs, while Joker was on the Loser's Side.

That's dumb. We payed for Blood!!!

But still a good showing from K.Rool. I didn't know Joker played him. K.Rool's shown he can at least compete at a high level, although don't expect many results. He's probably not solo viable with too many devastating MUs like Snake.

Pfffftttt, that made my day XD

But yeah, here's the archived stream of the tournament for whoever's interested:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515293753

These are the timestamps for when Joker used . On stream, he only switched to when fighting Ang and only after he lost a game against Meme .

1:02:30
10:56:48
12:43:08

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Outcamping is not really a thing, you want to stay at a range where Tjolt is not safe to throw out yet landing with fair/QA is risky. Pikachu's air movement is not good so within that space you can corner and air-to-air the character well. It may just be Peach privilege talking though.

Usually when I see people list their bad MUs Pikachu is always listed. I think Pika is really good obviously but like I can’t imagine Ness, G&W and Peach (usually the only characters I see people say Pika doesn’t beat) are the only characters in this game that can both make Tjolt not safe/neutralize it with trivial effort and be able to box out Pikachu. Pikachu doesn’t necessarily have much range, and usually has to resort to quick attack to get out of the situation above which loses to just about any body coverage hitbox.

I really think people just aren’t good at fighting Pikachu. Like I said Ness, Peach and G&W cannot be the only characters that can both play around Tjolt without much commitment and simultaneous box out Pikachu’s non-Tjolt neutral. I don’t think the character should be close to the top five.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Pika is really good obviously but like I can’t imagine Ness, G&W and Peach (usually the only characters I see people say Pika doesn’t beat) [...]

Those are the characters he likely loses to, he goes even with a bunch of other characters. Some characters I could see him potentially going even with: Greninja, Ike, Inkling, Lucas, Mario, Olimar, Pac-Man, Snake, Wario, Yoshi. Lucina is potentially even as well (I'm leaning towards losing atm).

Most of these "even" matchups are probably closer to winning than losing for Pikachu, although Ryuga thinks Ike wins vs Pikachu, ANTi Mario. Ultimately, Pikachu is not as busted as Smash 4 Bayonetta, but still very good.

 

[Cheryl~]

Usually when I see people list their bad MUs Pikachu is always listed. I think Pika is really good obviously but like I can’t imagine Ness, G&W and Peach (usually the only characters I see people say Pika doesn’t beat) are the only characters in this game that can both make Tjolt not safe/neutralize it with trivial effort and be able to box out Pikachu. Pikachu doesn’t necessarily have much range, and usually has to resort to quick attack to get out of the situation above which loses to just about any body coverage hitbox.

I really think people just aren’t good at fighting Pikachu. Like I said Ness, Peach and G&W cannot be the only characters that can both play around Tjolt without much commitment and simultaneous box out Pikachu’s non-Tjolt neutral. I don’t think the character should be close to the top five.

For what it’s worth ESAM has stated recently that he believes Mario slightly beats Pika from his experiences fighting top Marios like ANTi and Dark Wizzy. Of course he also thinks Pika-Peach is an even MU so who knows at this point lol.
on the topic of Pikachu though I will say as a Lucas main that while he likely doesn’t beat Pikachu in this game it’s definitely even at worst for Lucas since he can negate TBolt camping and has good disjointed hit boxes to tackle Pikachu’s mediocre range. He also doesn’t get edgeguarded quite as easily by Pikachu due to his many recovery mixups which makes offstage play a little more bearable than for many other characters. And for what it’s worth, ESAM did drop a set recently at a stacked Florida local to their top Lucas player, Chocotaco. Definitely some matchup inexperience at play but it’s decent evidence for how the matchup plays out at least.

 

[Frihetsanka]

For what it’s worth ESAM has stated recently that he believes Mario slightly beats Pika from his experiences fighting top Marios like ANTi and Dark Wizzy.

Seems his current opinion is that it's even, unless he's changed his mind very recently:

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