Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Frihetsanka

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So, Ness. Shortly after Ultimate was released, many people were hyped for him, and sure, he was buffed. The situation reminded me of Smash 4, where people were also hyped for Ness, even believing that he was top 15 for quite some time. Eventually Ness fell down to mid tier, and it would appears that history repeats himself. Do many people still believe Ness is top 25? He's not a bad character, but he's probably not a contender for high tier either.
 

Rizen

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So, Ness. Shortly after Ultimate was released, many people were hyped for him, and sure, he was buffed. The situation reminded me of Smash 4, where people were also hyped for Ness, even believing that he was top 15 for quite some time. Eventually Ness fell down to mid tier, and it would appears that history repeats himself. Do many people still believe Ness is top 25? He's not a bad character, but he's probably not a contender for high tier either.
Except history hasn't repeated its self :ultness: is # 17 on Orion Stats which is a high tier performance. That's better than Chroy individually*, Pika or Shulk.

*as stated I think this isn't the best way to represent their performance.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Except history hasn't repeated its self :ultness: is # 17 on Orion Stats which is a high tier performance. That's better than Chroy individually*, Pika or Shulk.

*as stated I think this isn't the best way to represent their performance.
Ness hasn't exactly been doing great at majors though, and I would guess that many of his results come from being a somewhat popular character (probably more popular than Shulk, Pikachu, Greninja, R. O. B., and Yoshi, if I were to make a guesstimation).
 

SwagGuy99

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Ness hasn't exactly been doing great at majors though, and I would guess that many of his results come from being a somewhat popular character (probably more popular than Shulk, Pikachu, Greninja, R. O. B., and Yoshi, if I were to make a guesstimation).
According to Orion Stats, yes, he has better results than Pikachu, Yoshi, and Shulk by a bit, but worse than Greninja and ROB.

:ultness: isn't too complex of a character when compared to a lot of the better characters in this game while being a decent character so I expect his popularity and results (at tournaments that aren't S or A tier) are primarily because of that.

Also (on an unrelated topic), I'm still surprised :ultrob: is still getting the kind of results that he is. According to Orion Stats he has better results than characters like :ultzss::ultmario::ultlucina: who are in my opinion, much better characters than he is. He is still solo-viable and I don't see him falling out of high tier any time soon (his strengths are way too good for that) but his biggest weakness ( which is his horrible disadvantage state) is just as bad (if not worse) than :ultbowser: due to his poor landing options, mediocre OOS game and mobility, along with his average fall speed.

Part of my reasoning here is that :ultrob: struggles against a lot of the Top Tiers (and even some high tiers), especially ones who can overwhelm him with quick attacks and high damaging combos (:ultsheik::ultluigi::ultmario::ultpikachu:), rush him down (:ultroy::ultchrom:), are hard to hit (:ultpichu:), can deal with his projectiles (:ultfalco::ultpalutena:) or maybe just a combination of all of them (:ultfox::ultwolf:).
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Ness hasn't exactly been doing great at majors though, and I would guess that many of his results come from being a somewhat popular character (probably more popular than Shulk, Pikachu, Greninja, R. O. B., and Yoshi, if I were to make a guesstimation).

I know that more many of Ness's results came locals thanks to the efforts of players like Bestness, F.O.W and Awestin who prettty much dominated their scene at the start

However for the most part Ness can just really get too far in majors and has yet to really get that big breathough so far.

I would not really compare Ness situation to Smash 4. Where he was considered like top 5 in the early Wii U days. But yeah even at his peak hype his results fell short, and was then became considered overated .
But the biggest issues that one of the many, many characters that fell victim to the DLC power creep. Notabally faring terribly vs Cloud and especially Corrin. He did fare okay vs Bayo though.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Ness hasn't exactly been doing great at majors though, and I would guess that many of his results come from being a somewhat popular character (probably more popular than Shulk, Pikachu, Greninja, R. O. B., and Yoshi, if I were to make a guesstimation).
It is mostly because his best players, in a similar vein to SSB4, does not really attend major events that much (Awestin barely goes to any event outside of locals).
The only top Ness player that comes close to a "common major event attendee" is BestNess, and while that is cool, he also uses Palu quite a bit as well.

Also (on an unrelated topic), I'm still surprised :ultrob: is still getting the kind of results that he is. According to Orion Stats he has better results than characters like :ultzss::ultmario::ultlucina: who are in my opinion, much better characters than he is. He is still solo-viable and I don't see him falling out of high tier any time soon (his strengths are way too good for that) but his biggest weakness ( which is his horrible disadvantage state) is just as bad (if not worse) than :ultbowser: due to his poor landing options, mediocre OOS game and mobility, along with his average fall speed.

Part of my reasoning here is that :ultrob: struggles against a lot of the Top Tiers (and even some high tiers), especially ones who can overwhelm him with quick attacks and high damaging combos (:ultsheik::ultluigi::ultmario::ultpikachu:), rush him down (:ultroy::ultchrom:), are hard to hit (:ultpichu:), can deal with his projectiles (:ultfalco::ultpalutena:) or maybe just a combination of all of them (:ultfox::ultwolf:).
As for R.O.B., he is very common is lower/mid levels of play, but also with top R.O.B. players (WaDi, 8BitMan, Raffi-X, etc.) doing pretty well with him in bigger events. So while there are probably a few characters better than him that are ranked below him in Orion Stats, the contributions R.O.B.'s players bring to the table in especially lower levels of play is reflected in his current stats despite his flaws.


Btw, a decently stacked invitational called Player's Ball Ultimate, took place this weekend.

1st: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
2nd: NickC:ultfalcon:
3rd: Venia:ultgreninja:
4th: Biddy:ultyounglink:
5th: Jul:ultrobin:
5th: Mr E:ultlucina:
7th: LeoN:ultbowser::ultbowserjr:
7th: Suarez:ultyoshi:


With Fatality's drop in results this season, it is kind of safe to say that NickC is probably the best Falcon player right now. He has obtained some pretty great results and wins this season.
The main thing holding him back from getting PGR'ed is that he doesn't really attend much.
 

Dream Cancel

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As for R.O.B., he is very common is lower/mid levels of play, but also with top R.O.B. players (WaDi, 8BitMan, Raffi-X, etc.) doing pretty well with him in bigger events. So while there are probably a few characters better than him that are ranked below him in Orion Stats, the contributions R.O.B.'s players bring to the table in especially lower levels of play is reflected in his current stats despite his flaws.
I think it's mainly due to his excellent mid-range control. Think about it:

His normals are quick (D-tilt is mad dumb, -5 on block with 3f start-up), he has wonderful falling aerials and his Fair is his go-to rising aerial. He has a simple and quick close-range game (with a dangerous grab game, mind you), and it's bolstered with two great projectiles. He gains many of the benefits of a zoner as well as the strength of a reliable close-quarters game. This doesn't even get into his great Gyro ledge traps.

His only weakness is his size and some difficulty getting off ledge. Being in the corner or being above stage isn't even that bad (FF Nair-dodge anyone?). This is a bit of theorycraft on my part, but he can pressure his opponent while cornered via Laser and Gyro (similar to how fireballs from the corner work in traditional fighting games). I think he has ample room to hold his own in most MUs, except the ones who take out one or both aspects of his controlling neutral. (:ultfox::ultwolf::ultroy::ultchrom::ultpalutena::ultfalco:) I forget which match-ups Zackray decided not to use ROB in at the Big House 6, so he definitely has his rough MUs.
 

Lacrimosa

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It is mostly because his best players, in a similar vein to SSB4, does not really attend major events that much (Awestin barely goes to any event outside of locals).
The only top Ness player that comes close to a "common major event attendee" is BestNess, and while that is cool, he also uses Palu quite a bit as well.


As for R.O.B., he is very common is lower/mid levels of play, but also with top R.O.B. players (WaDi, 8BitMan, Raffi-X, etc.) doing pretty well with him in bigger events. So while there are probably a few characters better than him that are ranked below him in Orion Stats, the contributions R.O.B.'s players bring to the table in especially lower levels of play is reflected in his current stats despite his flaws.


Btw, a decently stacked invitational called Player's Ball Ultimate, took place this weekend.

1st: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
2nd: NickC:ultfalcon:
3rd: Venia:ultgreninja:
4th: Biddy:ultyounglink:
5th: Jul:ultrobin:
5th: Mr E:ultlucina:
7th: LeoN:ultbowser::ultbowserjr:
7th: Suarez:ultyoshi:


With Fatality's drop in results this season, it is kind of safe to say that NickC is probably the best Falcon player right now. He has obtained some pretty great results and wins this season.
The main thing holding him back from getting PGR'ed is that he doesn't really attend much.
LeoN plays Junior?
How much did he use him?
 

KirbySquad101

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Major upsets be happening at Austria.

Gluttony :ultwario: 3-2s MKLeo :ultjoker: to get to GFs on the Winner's Side at VCA 2019.
 
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Anomika

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Time for MkLeo to activate his plot armor again. No way he's going to give up that easily. Still gives me chills when he managed to make an amazing against Tweek and won (Was it EVO?), and I still think that Arsene helps with comeback even if Joker :ultjoker: himself is pretty capable too, and possibly better because of having less chance to get 2-framed in certain MUs (Granted I haven't watched the stream so I don't know how the match against Glutonny went...)
 
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Lacrimosa

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It was nice seeing Meru's Zelda on loser's side but he also said that his Zelda needs a lot of work (and the game he took off quiK was because of a misinput by quiK after a shield-break).
Also there was a Kirby at 13th place I believe. Really nice to see that one of my older mained characters is now capable of doing things. It may still be only mid-tier-ish what Kirby can do but it's (finally) fun to play him again and watch him getting played.
 

KirbySquad101

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Time for MkLeo to activate his plot armor again. No way he's going to give up that easily. Still gives me chills when he managed to make an amazing against Tweek and won (Was it EVO?), and I still think that Arsene helps with comeback even if Joker :ultjoker: himself is pretty capable too, and possibly better because of having less chance to get 2-framed in certain MUs (Granted I haven't watched the stream so I don't know how the match against Glutonny went...)
I'll agree that MKLeo's quite infamous for getting wins from the Loser's Side in tourneys, whether it's against players like Samsora or Tweek. That said, Leo's set against Gluttony did a good job of showing that sometimes not even Arsene can be as potentially devastating as a comeback factor compared to the good ol' Wario Waft (which Gluttony made REAL good use of).
 

The_Bookworm

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VCA 2019 (B Tier)

1st: MkLeo:ultjoker::ultlucina:
2nd: Glutonny:ultwario:
3rd: quiK:ultsamus::ultzss:
4th: Mr R:ultsnake::ultchrom::ultsheik:
5th: Meru:ultpeach::ultzelda:
5th: Elexiao:ultgreninja:
7th: Oryon:ultwolf:
7th: cyve:ultdiddy::ultinkling:
9th: yetey:ultpichu:
9th: Tru4:ultshulk:
9th: LuiS:ultpalutena: (Not Lui$)
9th: Homika:ultrosalina:
13th: Jesuischoq:ultkirby: (!!)
13th: Kakpu:ultroy:
13th: RobinGG:ultpeach:
13th: PEW:ultness:
 
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Y2Kay

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It is mostly because his best players, in a similar vein to SSB4, does not really attend major events that much (Awestin barely goes to any event outside of locals).
The only top Ness player that comes close to a "common major event attendee" is BestNess, and while that is cool, he also uses Palu quite a bit as well.


As for R.O.B., he is very common is lower/mid levels of play, but also with top R.O.B. players (WaDi, 8BitMan, Raffi-X, etc.) doing pretty well with him in bigger events. So while there are probably a few characters better than him that are ranked below him in Orion Stats, the contributions R.O.B.'s players bring to the table in especially lower levels of play is reflected in his current stats despite his flaws.


Btw, a decently stacked invitational called Player's Ball Ultimate, took place this weekend.

1st: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
2nd: NickC:ultfalcon:
3rd: Venia:ultgreninja:
4th: Biddy:ultyounglink:
5th: Jul:ultrobin:
5th: Mr E:ultlucina:
7th: LeoN:ultbowser::ultbowserjr:
7th: Suarez:ultyoshi:


With Fatality's drop in results this season, it is kind of safe to say that NickC is probably the best Falcon player right now. He has obtained some pretty great results and wins this season.
The main thing holding him back from getting PGR'ed is that he doesn't really attend much.
NickC is a busy guy but he plans to attend more in December / January onward to try and make it on PGR

:150:
 

TennisBall

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I got 7th at a tournament so I'm happy about that. A few observations:
:ultchrom::ultroy: probably have a slight advantage vs :ultyounglink:, especially :ultchrom:. Chrom has what YL hates: fast disjoint that's bigger than his with better angles. Origionally I had this as even because Chrom gets gimped hard by YL and YL's Dsmash sends him at a very steep sideways angle that kills his cruddy recovery early. But Chrom can aggressively pressure YL and his shield and YL's bad OoS game can't do anything about it when spaced. Next time I'll try Wolf against them.
Chroy are lower top tiers. Like I said, their Orion score is artificially lowered by being split between them.

:ultpichu:'s a character who can beat anyone. He vortexes super hard, kills early and is a nightmare offstage. Pichu's thunder is a strait upgrade of Pikachu's because it always launches the way pichu's facing, even from behind. Pikachu's will launch backward from behind. The thing is he also is the ultimate glass cannon who dies earlier than anyone. So even after the nerfs imo Pichu's a solid high tier but no longer top.
IMO YL slightly wins this MU. He can play keep away with projectiles and Nair/Dair shut down Pichu's approaches hard. Pichu doesn't have the disjoint to contest them.

:ultness:has a bunch of janky **** and good zoning with big disjointed aerials. IDK why players keep rating him any lower than high tier. Yeah his recovery can be swatted away but he can PKT2 faster than firefox starts and it's extremely powerful. Ness is also great at harassing in advantage with his PK moves and aerials. YOyo's great for shield pressure and 2 framing due to long smash charging in ultimate and directional air dodges help him recover. He works really well with Ultimate's engine.

https://ultimateframedata.com/hitboxes/terry/TerryRisingTackle.gif
Those are always helpful; you can see the blue intangibility disappear off Terry's legs at the top. But like Emblem Lord said, Terry players can also drop low and use magnet hands to grab the ledge without his legs popping above it. Terry seems better at high levels due to this and being technical. IMO he's a solid high tier. He has too much going for him to be any lower but also has lacking hitboxes (except on Go moves), especially on aerials. He might get zoned hard.
I'm late but thank you. Ness is high tier in my opinion. Preach
 

SapphSabre777

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Also there was a Kirby at 13th place I believe. Really nice to see that one of my older mained characters is now capable of doing things. It may still be only mid-tier-ish what Kirby can do but it's (finally) fun to play him again and watch him getting played.
Considering his vanilla state, him being "mid-tier-ish" or somewhere along those lines and having him be fun to play again is all we wanted. To see constant results from the boyo is a shocker to me.
 

Rizen

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It is mostly because his best players, in a similar vein to SSB4, does not really attend major events that much (Awestin barely goes to any event outside of locals).
The only top Ness player that comes close to a "common major event attendee" is BestNess, and while that is cool, he also uses Palu quite a bit as well.


As for R.O.B., he is very common is lower/mid levels of play, but also with top R.O.B. players (WaDi, 8BitMan, Raffi-X, etc.) doing pretty well with him in bigger events. So while there are probably a few characters better than him that are ranked below him in Orion Stats, the contributions R.O.B.'s players bring to the table in especially lower levels of play is reflected in his current stats despite his flaws.


Btw, a decently stacked invitational called Player's Ball Ultimate, took place this weekend.

1st: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina:
2nd: NickC:ultfalcon:
3rd: Venia:ultgreninja:
4th: Biddy:ultyounglink:
5th: Jul:ultrobin:
5th: Mr E:ultlucina:
7th: LeoN:ultbowser::ultbowserjr:
7th: Suarez:ultyoshi:


With Fatality's drop in results this season, it is kind of safe to say that NickC is probably the best Falcon player right now. He has obtained some pretty great results and wins this season.
The main thing holding him back from getting PGR'ed is that he doesn't really attend much.
I've been watching these and Biddy's :ultyounglink: had a really good showing. He's the YL my style is closest to (as opposed to Supahsemmi who has a more CQC oriented YL). It's nice because I actually have top level examples of YL's MUs for once. I know I've said YL beats Joker in the past but lately it changed to even. Joker with Arsene hits really hard and has big attacks. Well now I can back that up by showing Biddy vs Roxas, who beat Mr.E.

Edit, maybe I should go into detail. YL is probably the best character at walling out Arsene. He can reflect projectiles but that still eats up precious time. The main things YL hates are faster, bigger disjoints. Joker doesn't have oppressive hitboxes without Aresene and Aresene can be avoided. Joker can Rebel's guard but if he does YL can quickly charge an arrow if he's camping and release it when the blue disappears to punish it even if Joker gets a little meter. YL's projectiles are fast and he can ready another, especially arrows quicker than pretty much every other character with a few exceptions. So YL has good tools to deal with Joker. Joker is a very good character with top tier options and power so it ends up about even. Joker is still better equipped to deal with YL's zoning than most characters.

YL has been doing fairly well the past week or so with results like:
Smash Out 2019 (435 entrants) (St. Louis, Missouri)
2nd: Skittles!! :ultyounglink:
https://smash.gg/tournament/dreamhack-atlanta-2019/events/smash-ultimate-1v1/standings
DreamHack Atlanta 2019 (640 entrants) (Atlanta, Georgia)
17. Toast :ultyounglink:
The Ultimate Performance #2 (116 entrants) (Rotterdam, The Netherlands)
https://smash.gg/tournament/the-ult...ts/super-smash-bros-ultimate-singles/overview
5. Supahsemmie :ultyounglink:
Fight for 95 (55 entrants) (West Palm Beach, Florida)
https://smash.gg/tournament/fight-for-95-1/events/smash-ultimate-singles/overview
7. Kobe :ultyounglink:
The Ultimate Fall Arcadian (256 entrants) (Laurel, Maryland)
https://smash.gg/tournament/the-ultimate-fall-arcadian-xanadu/events/ultimate-singles/overview
4. AGenericName :ultyounglink::ultpichu:

So it's a decent time to talk about his viability. I, like most tier lists, have him at the bottom of high tier. IMO he's better than mid tiers but his low kill power and poor CQC drag him down. He hasn't been hurt too bad by DLC and patches because so far they haven't thrown any bad MUs at him. IMO he goes even with Joker, which is the big road block. IDK about Banjo but think he slightly beats Terry. The power creep of characters getting buffed from under him does hurt, IMO the CF MU was a slight advantage and is now even for example. But we're not seeing any huge emergence of bad MUs from buffed characters and he still does pretty well vs lower ranked characters.

So YL's not as strong as people first believed but has settled into his place in the meta. Don't expect him to win a major but he'll appear in top 8s every now and then.

:ultlink: on the other hand does not like the Joker MU for similar reasons as why he didn't like the Sheik MU in SSB4. Joker beats him when he's in and gets in better than most characters. Especially with Aresene, Joker's also powerful enough that Link can't try to outlast him. Link's slow sword attacks and zoning have to be on point to beat Joker.

Link's probably hurt by DLC more than YL. It's not just MUs; players sometimes pick up Hero instead of him as a slow sword/projectile hybrid, most notably Salem. IMO Link's somewhere in upper mid tier.
 
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SwagGuy99

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:ultlink: on the other hand does not like the Joker MU for similar reasons as why he didn't like the Sheik MU in SSB4. Joker beats him when he's in and gets in better than most characters. Especially with Aresene, Joker's also powerful enough that Link can't try to outlast him. Link's slow sword attacks and zoning have to be on point to beat Joker.

Link's probably hurt by DLC more than :ultyounglink:. It's not just MUs; players sometimes pick up Hero instead of him as a slow sword/projectile hybrid, most notably Salem. IMO Link's somewhere in upper mid tier.
Do you have an opinion on how much the DLC affects :ulttoonlink: compared to the other two? I'd argue that he goes even or wins against all of them except :ultjoker: but that's just my thoughts on it.
 

The_Bookworm

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Gleam

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At this point one probably isn't going to see major changes in Orion placements considering that nearly everyone is being boosted.

:ultridley: for example has effectively only risen one spot from last time, but in respect to that, he's gained around 15 points or so in the last 2 updates, definitely showing the improvement bought in by the player base.

At this point, I'd be far more worried on what poor :ultcorrin::ultcorrinf: is supposed to do now.
 

SwagGuy99

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At this point, I'd be far more worried on what poor :ultcorrin::ultcorrinf: is supposed to do now.
Yes. The next closest character (:ultmewtwo:) is sitting at 12 pts and right above him is :ultjigglypuff:, now having 14 pts, having gained a few since 6.0.0.

Overall, not much seems to have changed.

:ultluigi: is back in the Top 30.
:ultfalcon: seems to be a bit lower.

However, the most important thing to me is that :ultrosalina: has entered the Top 30. It's hard to believe that most people (myself included) thought she would never get consistent results and would probably never even be a mid tier but thanks to Dubuz's work with her and her constant buffs in earlier patches, she has far exceed most people's expectations this PGR Season.

Edit: Oh yeah, :ultjoker: is #1 now. I guess that's not too notable as he's only barely above :ultwolf: and we've all seen it coming for a while but I guess it's notable enough for me to mention.
 
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Dream Cancel

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I wonder if OrionStats has something that shows all the contributing players to specific characters. I would be interested to see who's contributing to :ultrosalina:'s score outside of Dabuz, Kirihara, and Homika.

I haven't really touched Rosalina in this opening year of Ultimate, but comparing her score from this half of the year so far (165.5) compared to the first half (62), what have high-level players figured out about her so far? She has her residual good MUs from 4 (heavies and zoners) but I'm not really sure how she fares, or even what she does in more even/losing MUs.
 
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Daisycakes

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I wonder if OrionStats has something that shows all the contributing players to specific characters. I would be interested to see who's contributing to :ultrosalina:'s score outside of Dabuz, Kirihara, and Homika.

I haven't really touched Rosalina in this opening year of Ultimate, but comparing her score from this half of the year so far (165.5) compared to the first half (62), what have high-level players figured out about her so far? She has her residual good MUs from 4 (heavies and zoners) but I'm not really sure how she fares, or even what she does in more even/losing MUs.
OrionStats in general isn’t too good for comparing data because it doesn’t clearly show weights or how much individual results contribute to the scoring. We don’t have the freedom to parse data for our own use, it’s very much “I want to represent this data in this form and you can’t argue otherwise”
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I think people have just started realizing that Rosa really isn’t that much different from her S4 version and still retains most of what made her good in that game. It’s not like she got a major rehaul at all just made to be less obnoxious. Which doesn’t necessarily mean not strong.

Next people will realize or hopefully already realize that Sonic (aside some moves not working) wasn’t gutted either and is still good.
 

Tizio Random

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Hello, I always lurk this thread but I haven't posted in here for months. Since the hot topic now seems to be my main, let me write a bit about her since misconception about this character rules supreme.

I think people have just started realizing that Rosa really isn’t that much different from her S4 version
I want to start from this because this couldn't be further from the truth. If there ever was a character that did a complete 180 from the previous installment, :ultrosalina: would be a candidate for it, for sure. Yes, her gameplan is roughly the same: launch your opponent up, juggle them, edgeguard them, wall them, yeah usual stuff. But the way it is performed, especially in the neutral game, has nothing similar to it; so much that her "actual" gameplay has been fleshed out completely only very recently.

Some changes that were initially overlooked (or came later with Ultimate's patches) both helped diversifying her gameplay and removing some of the non-sensical weaknesses or weird design choices from Smash 4. Luma Shot is now an actual valuable neutral tool instead of a meme to mess up with your clueless opponent, Launch Star doesn't have its horrible 2-frame animation anymore, actually being one of the hardest upb's in the game to poke if recovering low, her smashes and tilt are now very good when reversed to catch landings and people chasing you because Luma actually moves with them and so on.

Since her most prominent neutral tools, namely jab, neutral air and up air, changed so much in the transition, it took a lot of time for people to adjust to and abuse her other assets, especially considering her low player base (which is a shame, really, because the character is extremely fun to play now) that mostly didn't help developing her meta.

I would be interested to see who's contributing to :ultrosalina:'s score outside of Dabuz, Kirihara, and Homika.
From what I know, there's not much else which is interesting because despite her small pool of players, :ultrosalina: has still achieved a good amount of results at majors, which is something not all characters can say. I know that Neos, Abadango more recently and maybe Mr. Gommi contributed to some points in OrionStats too, though not much else.

I want to conclude this post by saying that as of now I think :ultrosalina: is currently one of the best mid tiers, if not the best (opinion shared by some prominent Japanese players), and I can see her rising to high tier in the future if more people are willing to use her and help pushing her meta a bit more. I don't see that happening now because of her extremely high learning curve, compared to characters that can do better with way less work like :ultpalutena:, and the stigma surrounding her that still persists. Not only people still see her as a campy and extremely lame character, but when discussing about her, they always only talk about her weaknesses and literally never about her strengths, which is a shame but not really surprising. That's her legacy, I guess.
 

Nobie

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User ezeitgeist on Reddit posted a bunch of older casual match videos from the Japanese players like Earth and 9B who were on the Ultimate Team and thus haven't been competing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/e24u1e/rare_footage_of_amsa_earth_bombsoldier_and_9b/

While there are no videos, apparently Ranai's best characters (at least back at EVO) were BOWSER JR and BAYONETTA.

I (semi-jokingly) wonder if that's why they're not getting many buffs: Ranai is too good, and for some reason few have gotten to his level/time spent to understand what makes those characters strong.
 

Gérard Majax

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I (semi-jokingly) wonder if that's why they're not getting many buffs: Ranai is too good, and for some reason few have gotten to his level/time spent to understand what makes those characters strong.
Eh, they both got a reasonable patch (arguably jr got buffed more than bayo? not a bayo expert), and jr wasn't that bad in the first place, so I'm not sure I agree with that lol.

Tbh it feels like every *bad* (which is pretty relative in this game, since even bad chars have random good top tier mus, gl beating palu though) got buffs at this point. Some of them still need work (falcon, bayo), and some of them are kinda screwed by design (can't see krool being more than a gimmick unless they make him broke/redesign him), but now we have kirby placing relatively well, sheik and jr do stuff once in a while, ken and rosa are pretty noice, heck then even buffed jiggs this time.

Ganon is probably the only one who got nothing, probably for FFA/wifi reasons? Although even then he could use a push in the right direction (like removing rockrocking lol, he really doesn't need that). Second guess would be zelda (an other gimmick char, scary in the right situation though).

And then you have mewtwo/corrin who get buffed every patch and no one still bother with them haha.
 

TennisBall

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I think people have just started realizing that Rosa really isn’t that much different from her S4 version and still retains most of what made her good in that game. It’s not like she got a major rehaul at all just made to be less obnoxious. Which doesn’t necessarily mean not strong.

Next people will realize or hopefully already realize that Sonic (aside some moves not working) wasn’t gutted either and is still good.
Sonic has been getting absurdly good results for his standards as of late and even has a win on Tweek with Wrath at Dreamhack. This character is still very good.
 

Das Koopa

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OrionStats in general isn’t too good for comparing data because it doesn’t clearly show weights or how much individual results contribute to the scoring. We don’t have the freedom to parse data for our own use, it’s very much “I want to represent this data in this form and you can’t argue otherwise”
Hi, I noticed you had some issues with the OrionStats thing. I think your characterization is a bit hostile and I'm free after some stuff I needed to do with my dad, so I'll respond to this and a few messages you had directed to this a while back (I'm rarely active here, I generally just lurk.)

For one, you can definitely argue otherwise, and people have. My work is inherently amateur and serves to give a "general" idea of who is doing well in the metagame. I do like to represent it like this, but the idea that I'd only represent it like that is wrong. I've drug my feet a bit at a few points in the year, but I've made larger projects known - I intend to do a lot after Kongo Saga to analyze the first year of Ultimate to the best of my ability. This includes looking at character presence in a number of ways, not just the regional+national scores.

For two, the lack of a public results sheet is a matter of time commitment. The google sheet I use links directly to the smash.gg pages. I intend to probably have a text tab for results so they can be publicly looked at since I often do the job of looking through VODs of recent events. This is good in the sense that my database now links to the actual events, but bad in the sense that it removes the characters.

I do have a word file with the characters that I will probably make public once I start releasing year 1 data and for 2020 I'll be more active in relaying results since I think I can manage to copy & paste from my word file week-to-week.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, the info given is pretty clear. Point values are determined by placements with a lot of meandering about on details. Co-maining, secondaries, etc. The methodology tab is most incomplete in relation to the TTS itself, as in, player values getting updated when people top 4 majors. This'll be more clearly relayed since part of the reason it isn't clear is player values by power rankings external to the USA change a lot. My fix for this was to have a stable 6 month long PR for many of the 11 "super-regions." Canada has one, Middle East has one, but areas like AUS, MX, AP, EU, etc. don't.

To address earlier messages you posted, you seem to take issues with how echoes are handled. This is a consequence of the "Echo" term being very inconsistent even from the development staff. In this case, I separate based on the metagame rather than what the developers laid out, because Smash history in general rarely adheres to the intentions of aforementioned staff, wherever they exist.

Echoes:

:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: > Merged

:ultryu::ultken: > NOT Merged

:ultroy::ultchrom: > NOT Merged

:ultpeach::ultdaisy: > Merged

:ultpit::ultdarkpit: > Merged

:ultmarth::ultlucina: > NOT Merged

:ultrichter::ultsimon: > Merged

For some mergings, the justification is very simple. Simon & Richter are effectively the same character outside of property differences. Daisy & Peach are merged for similar reasons. The Dark counterparts are slightly more sketchy because differences exist. However, in the case of the Samuses, these are very minimal, and both iterations are regularly played by top mains of the character.

The Pits were merged after July because the character's results are near nonexistent and most people who use one use the other. Here, we run into situations where if a player co-mained both, I'd need to count both, but that'd be kind of silly to double the value of a character when that character is so similar to their counterpart that it really only matters for specific matchups (if at all, since Pit's core doesn't revolve around electroshock arm.) Arrows are the most MU dependent aspect of Pit, to my knowledge. I don't see the point in separating what is essentially a different mode-select for same-tiered characters nobody uses, especially when their separation in Smash 4, something I had public documentation over for years, yielded nothing of interest.

Marth and Lucina weren't merged because there is a very public and acknowledged understanding - at this point - that they are very different due to Marth's tipper mechanic. This is more stated than it was in Smash 4, to the extent that Marth is a much worse character and sees very little use. This is attested by MKLeo and seemingly every notable Marth from Smash 4 going into Ultimate, and MKLeo's attempts to make Marth work individually were very mixed at Summit and led him to essentially drop the character.

Lucina is almost objectively more consistent and reliable across the majority of her moveset. This is distinct from individual move differences or small quirks seen in the Pits or Samuses, respectively, and warrants a separation both to see how Marth operates by himself and because he's just noticeably different.

Roy/Chrom aren't merged because there is nowhere near enough playerbase crossover to reasonably justify it. There are a set of Roy mains, and there are a set of Chrom mains, with limited overlap to my knowledge.) I am doing a PR analysis by the start of 2020, and I'll take this back if there's a serious overlap, but among top Roy/Chrom mains the overlap has thus far been limited. Adding this to the similar major differences between the two swordsmen seen with Marth/Lucina (only without a viability gap), it again seems reasonable to keep them separate.

Ken/Ryu are again emblematic of the inconsistencies seen in what even defines an echo, but not to belabor the point, they are often separated by entire tiers. While there is actual overlap between shoto mains, this could reasonably be seen as the result of many former Ryu mains keeping him around while playing Ken, the generally agreed superior pick between the two.

The criteria is context dependent on the metagame and that's probably how it should be (instead of a total adherence to what the staff intended) since it means I'm operating a TTS for the metagame in the boundaries of that metagame. Keeping them separate by principal introduces problems in case of merged instances for reasons I brought up with the Pits - you're risking the inflating of results. Like, if Samsora woke up one day and decided he'd main both Peach and Daisy, and every subsequent result was to count both of them separately, I'd be inflating that individual entity's results based on nothing besides what amounts to an alternate costume slot.

It is far less headache inducing to just go with what people generally determine to be in the case in the context of the meta when it comes to merging echoes in results. Some warrant it, some don't, and it's easier to understand the reasons why than to go in blind on merged echoes when counting results.
 
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