Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[ARISTOS]

I'm going to be honest, while I don't think is the worst character in the game, I think I've given up on thinking of her as a mid tier. She just doesn't stand out compared to the rest of the roster but unlike and who also similar in that sense, Corrin has worse mobility, initial dash, anti-camping game, recovery, and combo game so she isn't even as good as them and they are debatly lower mid tiers already. I'd argue that she is definitely bottom 10 and could be as low as bottom 5 if nobody picks her up and can rescue her from her horrible tournament results.

Corrin suffers similarly to Bayo/Cloud where I think people exaggerate how bad the character is because they've been nerfed from their Smash 4 counterpart.

The character is mediocre, but not much more than that, and their low Orion score speaks more to their lack of popularity (Fates was a particularly divisive game) than anything else.

I'd be more worried about characters like Donkey Kong, who despite being relatively popular seems to have a poor performance.

Outside of this though, once a meme sets in regarding a character, it gets really hard to change that perception. This isn't new to Ultimate but is a recurring trend, both positive and negative.

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, but let's not overestimate the divisiveness of Fates when most pros probably don't really care that much about the original games.

 

[BitBitio]

I personally think that and either ,or maybe will end up being bottom five unless they get buffed.

Top five is looking to be and maybe .

The fact that was released 5 months late and almost is topping OrionStats tells me he’s going to be the best character in the game.

 

[|RK|]

I personally think that and either ,or maybe will end up being bottom five unless they get buffed.

Top five is looking to be and maybe .

The fact that was released 5 months late and almost is topping OrionStats tells me he’s going to be the best character in the game.

Quick note that OrionStats has different seasons.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I personally think that and either ,or maybe will end up being bottom five unless they get buffed.

TBH, I'm not sure if I have a good idea of who the bottom 5 are currently outside of and being at the bottom. and are the other likely contenders but I'm not 100% sure on them.

 

[BitBitio]

Quick note that OrionStats has different seasons.

By that do you mean that it resets everyone to 0 each season, so it’s even ground?
If so, my bad. Joker might not be the absolute best.

 

[Kokiden]

Not really. It is sort of a "trend" chart, although it is cumulative throughout the season. We do try to account for inconsistencies, but we don't use the chart as law on what is going on in the metagame.

It is simply a source we can work with.

Ah ok gotcha. Thanks.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So, player BassMage posted this to Twitter:

Made a matchup chart, its pretty optimistic but puff is silly, ill prob DM you if you reply btw pic.twitter.com/K48K7aer4Q

— BassMage (@BassMage) November 19, 2019

This looks EXTREMELY optimistic to me and it makes it seem like is a low to mid high tier, losing to mostly only Top Tiers and High Tiers with a few exceptions.

Also, while I'm thinking about it, I saw that Goblin also posted his MU chart as well.

My Roy matchup chart! Not gonna be answering a lot of questions because I answered them on my stream but if you are really curious you can check out the vod on my stream. pic.twitter.com/GI6NH7bWSk

— Moist | Goblin (@GoblinFL) November 19, 2019

He thinks only loses to 2 characters. I'm not arguing that Roy is good, but I highly doubt he only loses to the rats.

 

[BitBitio]

So, player BassMage posted this to Twitter:

Made a matchup chart, its pretty optimistic but puff is silly, ill prob DM you if you reply btw pic.twitter.com/K48K7aer4Q

— BassMage (@BassMage) November 19, 2019

This looks EXTREMELY optimistic to me and it makes it seem like is a low to mid high tier, losing to mostly only Top Tiers and High Tiers with a few exceptions.

Also, while I'm thinking about it, I saw that Goblin also posted his MU chart as well.

My Roy matchup chart! Not gonna be answering a lot of questions because I answered them on my stream but if you are really curious you can check out the vod on my stream. pic.twitter.com/GI6NH7bWSk

— Moist | Goblin (@GoblinFL) November 19, 2019

He thinks only loses to 2 characters. I'm not arguing that Roy is good, but I highly doubt he only loses to the rats.

Jiggs beating Kirby? No way. Even at best. She has good airs but so does Kirby and a great ground game to boot. He juggles her for days (dem up air buffs) and is one of the few characters that Jiggs cannot safely/reliably gimp. That chart is way too optimistic IMO. She hasn’t gone from bottom to high tier, I think she’s maybe midtier.

As for Roy, that is also extremely optimistic. He’s a high tier, not the best in the game for heaven’s sake. Most characters can gimp him with ease (Like Kirby) and some can combo him extremely well (also Kirby).

 

[Nate1080]

Idk if Puff beats Terry.

I played quite a few Puff players as Terry since he released, the match up doesn’t seem tough for him. Puff seems to have no real answer against zoning/camping/anti-airing with Power Wave and Crackshoot. They have to approach and Terry just easily punishes Puff’s approaches.

 

[Zinith]

So, player BassMage posted this to Twitter:

Made a matchup chart, its pretty optimistic but puff is silly, ill prob DM you if you reply btw pic.twitter.com/K48K7aer4Q

— BassMage (@BassMage) November 19, 2019

This looks EXTREMELY optimistic to me and it makes it seem like is a low to mid high tier, losing to mostly only Top Tiers and High Tiers with a few exceptions.

Also, while I'm thinking about it, I saw that Goblin also posted his MU chart as well.

My Roy matchup chart! Not gonna be answering a lot of questions because I answered them on my stream but if you are really curious you can check out the vod on my stream. pic.twitter.com/GI6NH7bWSk

— Moist | Goblin (@GoblinFL) November 19, 2019

He thinks only loses to 2 characters. I'm not arguing that Roy is good, but I highly doubt he only loses to the rats.

Yoshi is literally her worst MU? Now I'm curious

 

[L9999]

Yoshi is literally her worst MU? Now I'm curious

Jiggs is a free win for Yoshi.

Yoshi has equally good air mobility as Jiggs, and does more damage per interaction. Jiggs cannot edgeguard Yoshi, his second jump has armor and he can protect his return with eggs. That right there neutralized everything Jiggs is good at. Yoshi is also a fat dino that refuses to die and Jiggs has problems killing safely.

 

[NotLiquid]

Jigglypuff winning the Terry MU is entirely predicated on Terry being gimp fodder if forced off-stage, and Terry being extremely outgunned in air-to-air engagements.

The problem when on-stage though is that Terry doesn't actually need to be in the air to stuff out airborne approaches.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Every character the Puff can't reliably edgeguard is a bad MU for her. It's still her biggest strength and if she can't capitalize on it she has to rely on her aerials and side-B (fugg this move btw.). Yes, she now can reliably dAir into Rest but that won't you win a MUbut it works better on lighter characters obviously. So Jiggs definitely has the advantage there.
Like, I'm not sure why he thinks that Wario, Peach, Rob or Zelda is even at all. All three characters that are pretty hard to edgeguard and the latter nearly impossible unless you're drunk or half-asleep and Puff has to get in, so holding down while teleporting back to the ledge is extremely safe for Zelda.
Wario still has Waft which will kill and a top-player like Gluto will always land one, Peach and Rob have a great mix-up variety when being off-stage and projectiles and bit hitboxes. I don't really see what Jiggs has over them then for example Ike who is put as a losing MU. To be fair, I don't play Jiggs, I'd say she may be my worst character, but from what I've seen via streams, I think these are some MUs that look a bit too positive.
But he said it's optimistic, so yeah.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Okay, but let's not overestimate the divisiveness of Fates when most pros probably don't really care that much about the original games.

While we're on that I think people need to quit mixing up "divisive" with "unpopular". Corrin may be decisive but they still have a large fanbase, just like how Fates sold well despite all the people who were complaining about it.

Corrin's lack of results probably has more to do with being a pretty underwhelming swordsman in a game full of amazing ones then it has to do with a lack of fans, and it really doesn't help them that most Fates fans generally enjoyed Awakening as well.

 

[Arthur97]

While we're on that I think people need to quit mixing up "divisive" with "unpopular". Corrin may be decisive but they still have a large fanbase, just like how Fates sold well despite all the people who were complaining about it.

Corrin's lack of results probably has more to do with being a pretty underwhelming swordsman in a game full of amazing ones then it has to do with a lack of fans, and it really doesn't help them that most Fates fans generally enjoyed Awakening as well.

Indeed. Fates is very popular. The complainers are just really loud.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jigglypuff winning the Terry MU is entirely predicated on Terry being gimp fodder if forced off-stage, and Terry being extremely outgunned in air-to-air engagements.

The problem when on-stage though is that Terry doesn't actually need to be in the air to stuff out airborne approaches.

Holy crap someone talking sense.

People constantly talk like Terry is this 100% predictable rushdown character that NEVER plays footsies. Obviously, Terry is not Lucina in this regard but...

This is just one button. This one button can also be special cancelled. Terry also has spot dodge attack, utilt, burn knuckle and a few others to control close range. Jiggly puff is an aerial footsies specialist.

However...

What do you do vs a character with 2 invulnerable AAs and several intangible pokes?

Terry has all the tools to fight her on the ground and win neutral interactions consistently.

 

[Darkmoone1]

Holy crap someone talking sense.

People constantly talk like Terry is this 100% predictable rushdown character that NEVER plays footsies. Obviously, Terry is not Lucina in this regard but...View attachment 247361

This is just one button. This one button can also be special cancelled. Terry also has spot dodge attack, utilt, burn knuckle and a few others to control close range. Jiggly puff is an aerial footsies specialist.

However...

What do you do vs a character with 2 invulnerable AAs and several intangible pokes?

Terry has all the tools to fight her on the ground and win neutral interactions consistently.

It's also worth reiterating that Jigglypuff is one of the lightest characters in the game. Against a character like Terry who can catch you with one tilt or jab and convert into a special for high amounts of damage (Which can potentially also take your stock) , you don't have that much room for error. Something as simple as a Ftilt into burning knuckle can be devastating.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Jigglypuff winning the Terry MU is entirely predicated on Terry being gimp fodder if forced off-stage, and Terry being extremely outgunned in air-to-air engagements.

The problem when on-stage though is that Terry doesn't actually need to be in the air to stuff out airborne approaches.

Yeah, the / matchup seems to me to be whoever gets hit first loses a stock kind of matchup. Puff will die extremely early to most of Terry's combos and confirms while Puff can combo, juggle, edgeguard, and carry Terry offstage very easily because of his weight. I'd say that this matchup (especially after Puff's buffs) is even, but there's probably a decent chance I'm wrong here.

Overall, I think Terry usually will do poorly against characters with strong combo games who are hard to combo with being a pretty good examples of this. It doesn't help Terry that he's extremely slow either, so he can't even run away from a lot of the slower characters.

I'm guessing he will do very good against characters who are easier to combo though as well as characters with a worse recovery than him like .

Edit: Changed a word

 

[TennisBall]

So according to the MU chart for Puff, loses to .
I wonder how this could be perceived, could somebody enlighten me, because this seems actually impossible to me as I'm not experienced with Puff.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So according to the MU chart for Puff, loses to .
I wonder how this could be perceived, could somebody enlighten me, because this seems actually impossible to me as I'm not experienced with Puff.

I didn't notice that when I looked through it. Mostly was just checking where the Top Tiers and characters I like are but yeah, that's a hot take.

I guess can somewhat edgeguard (something most characters can't do), has a pretty strong combo game on , and can be hard to hit at times, but in the end, is still himself and still has all of the things that make him as good as he is (projectile, combos, juggling, hard to hit, fast, etc.) so I don't see it as winning for .



I don't think it's as bad as pre-6.0.0 for since dies very early to Pound -> Rest and D-air -> Rest, f-throw is better for edgeguards on , and can't abuse Puff offstage as much because of the air dodge buffs that got.



I think best case scenario it's even but probably -0.5 for . Far from 's worst matchup and one of her better Top/High Tier ones, but not wonderful by any means.

 

[J0eyboi]

Overall, I think Terry usually will do poorly against characters with strong combo games who are hard to combo with being a pretty good examples of this. It doesn't help Terry that he's extremely slow either, so he can't even run away from a lot of the slower characters.

I'm guessing he will also do very good against characters who are easier to combo though as well as characters with a worse recovery than him like .

I really don't think so.

First of all, Terry is not a big combo character. Most of his big Twitter strings have starters you are never going to land against a competent opponent. That's not to say he doesn't do damage; he does plenty, but that's because his moves do a lot of damage individually. Most of his combos are just a few hits and don't really have trouble working on floatier characters.

Second of all, Terry's edgeguarding isn't great. His opponent having a bad recovery doesn't help him that much because he has trouble exploiting it.

As for the matchups you mentioned,

is pretty easy for Terry. He has all the tools he needs to keep Luigi out, and Luigi lacks good ways to get in.

is probably a hard matchup, but it's less because she's floaty and more because she can float. Not only does floating basically render power wave useless, it also makes Peach very hard to anti-air, which is not good for Terry because anti-airing is a thing he likes doing. The fact that Terry can eat a lot of damage for messing up doesn't help, either, though the fact that Peach generally kills fairly late is nice for Terry, as it lets him have Power Geyser for longer.

is not a character or matchup I'm very well-versed in so I'm not gonna try and guess

is probably evenish for reasons Thinkaman stated in a post a few pages ago that I'm too lazy to find. Also Terry's preferred stages are very similar to Mac's which isn't ideal when half the reason he sucks is losing at stage select.

is easy for mostly the same reasons as Luigi. Ftilt does a huge amount of work in this matchup; Incineroar has basically no way to deal with it if you space well.

I'm not confident enough to give actual analysis of the rest, but I don't think Terry loses to any of them.

 

[Nobie]

Yoshi's air speed is faster than Jigglypuff's run speed. Puff will be in the air most of the time, granted, but those numbers don't bode well.

I think Terry's worst matchups are going to be those who can contend with him in ground footsies but are also capable of deeeep edgeguards. The main character I'm thinking of is actually Meta Knight, but obviously there isn't enough data to support that.

As for Banjo's viability, I think it's definitely there, but managing Wonderwing as a resource can be harsh. It's not like Pikmin or Luna where they can be replenished at no real cost. Once those feathers are gone, they're gone, and they cover everything: KOs, recovery, etc. One might argue that Banjo is the only character who gets worse as a match goes on (though there are also characters who suffer from rage messing up their combos).

 

[Nate1080]

is probably a hard matchup, but it's less because she's floaty and more because she can float. Not only does floating basically render power wave useless, it also makes Peach very hard to anti-air, which is not good for Terry because anti-airing is a thing he likes doing. The fact that Terry can eat a lot of damage for messing up doesn't help, either, though the fact that Peach generally kills fairly late is nice for Terry, as it lets him have Power Geyser for longer.

While Peach seems to be rough match up for Terry, the air variation of Power Wave is pretty good against Peach. Forces her to float higher to avoid it, making her easier to react to or use an anti-air option against after float is over.

Also fun fact: Crackshoot doesn’t care about her counter (at least from the one time a Peach used counter and I just bowled right through it via Crackshoot).

 

[meleebrawler]

Luigi may have a tough time getting in on Terry, but I'm not sure if he always needs to do that. He can throw fireballs slightly faster than Power Waves so getting into "fireball wars" can be a good way of forcing Terry to leave himself open.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Luigi may have a tough time getting in on Terry, but I'm not sure if he always needs to do that. He can throw fireballs slightly faster than Power Waves so getting into "fireball wars" can be a good way of forcing Terry to leave himself open.

Not only that, but Terry is fairly easy to keep in disadvantage if Luigi lands a n-air, up-tilt, grab, or something else he can start combos with. Terry is the right weight and fall speed for comboing and his air speed sucks as well so he can't just try to drift away either.

 

[TennisBall]

Not only that, but Terry is fairly easy to keep in disadvantage if Luigi lands a n-air, up-tilt, grab, or something else he can start combos with. Terry is the right weight and fall speed for comboing and his air speed sucks as well so he can't just try to drift away either.

Furthermore Terry is a character that Luigi can easily edgeguard. Easy two frames with d-tilt, plunger offstage, Luigi's F-Air offstage potentially, and if Terry tries to mix it up by landing on stage with a hitbox, Luigi has a Frame 1 invincible attack, or can just try to shield/grab the landing. Also minor thing, I think that Luigi's weird grab counts as a tether, which means that Luigi can just grab terry out of Buster Wolf. Admitted, this probably requires prediction and I wouldn't be surprised if human reaction was a factor but it's still there.

 

[meleebrawler]

Furthermore Terry is a character that Luigi can easily edgeguard. Easy two frames with d-tilt, plunger offstage, Luigi's F-Air offstage potentially, and if Terry tries to mix it up by landing on stage with a hitbox, Luigi has a Frame 1 invincible attack, or can just try to shield/grab the landing. Also minor thing, I think that Luigi's weird grab counts as a tether, which means that Luigi can just grab terry out of Buster Wolf. Admitted, this probably requires prediction and I wouldn't be surprised if human reaction was a factor but it's still there.

Why try to read with a grab when shielding a Buster Wolf grants an easy fire punch?

 

[TennisBall]

Why try to read with a grab when shielding a Buster Wolf grants an easy fire punch?

Fair enough.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How easy is it to 2-frame Terry, though? He doesn't automatically snap and his legs are intangible. To me, that reads as a combination that makes it difficult to tap him as he makes the actual ledge grab unless you have a healthy disjoint backing you up.

 

[The_Bookworm]

How easy is it to 2-frame Terry, though? He doesn't automatically snap and his legs are intangible. To me, that reads as a combination that makes it difficult to tap him as he makes the actual ledge grab unless you have a healthy disjoint backing you up.

It depends. As far as I can tell, I think the leg invincibility wears off before he can grab on to the ledge, so moves with good disjoint may have an easy time dealing with the move when he is recovering.

Could be wrong though since I don't fight Terry that much.

 

[Idon]

How easy is it to 2-frame Terry, though? He doesn't automatically snap and his legs are intangible. To me, that reads as a combination that makes it difficult to tap him as he makes the actual ledge grab unless you have a healthy disjoint backing you up.

According to Izaw, Terry recovering optimally with a true rising tackle will at minimum have nine frames of vulnerability before snapping to ledge.

 

[BitBitio]

Nine framing?!?!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thing is he has strong magnet hands. He does not need to actually be close to the ledge to grab it. He can be slightly below it.

So we will see what happens when Terry players stop sucking at recovering.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

According to Izaw, Terry recovering optimally with a true rising tackle will at minimum have nine frames of vulnerability before snapping to ledge.

I was more thinking about if Terry isn't trying to recover as low as possible, but instead uses his up special a bit higher so that he's got hitboxes attached to still-intangible legs poking through the stage. Even assuming you shield it, is there enough time to hit him before he gets ledge invulnerability?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I was more thinking about if Terry isn't trying to recover as low as possible, but instead uses his up special a bit higher so that he's got hitboxes attached to still-intangible legs poking through the stage. Even assuming you shield it, is there enough time to hit him before he gets ledge invulnerability?

It may work against some characters, but if the character has a good disjoint, then that strategy doesn't end up too well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It may work against some characters, but if the character has a good disjoint, then that strategy doesn't end up too well.

That's fair. I might be overestimating the hitbox size in my head.

On a different note, hitbox visualizations are finished for all (currently existing) characters in Ultimate at https://ultimateframedata.com/ which I think is spiffy.

 

[Rizen]

I got 7th at a tournament so I'm happy about that. A few observations:
probably have a slight advantage vs , especially . Chrom has what YL hates: fast disjoint that's bigger than his with better angles. Origionally I had this as even because Chrom gets gimped hard by YL and YL's Dsmash sends him at a very steep sideways angle that kills his cruddy recovery early. But Chrom can aggressively pressure YL and his shield and YL's bad OoS game can't do anything about it when spaced. Next time I'll try Wolf against them.
Chroy are lower top tiers. Like I said, their Orion score is artificially lowered by being split between them.

's a character who can beat anyone. He vortexes super hard, kills early and is a nightmare offstage. Pichu's thunder is a strait upgrade of Pikachu's because it always launches the way pichu's facing, even from behind. Pikachu's will launch backward from behind. The thing is he also is the ultimate glass cannon who dies earlier than anyone. So even after the nerfs imo Pichu's a solid high tier but no longer top.
IMO YL slightly wins this MU. He can play keep away with projectiles and Nair/Dair shut down Pichu's approaches hard. Pichu doesn't have the disjoint to contest them.

has a bunch of janky **** and good zoning with big disjointed aerials. IDK why players keep rating him any lower than high tier. Yeah his recovery can be swatted away but he can PKT2 faster than firefox starts and it's extremely powerful. Ness is also great at harassing in advantage with his PK moves and aerials. YOyo's great for shield pressure and 2 framing due to long smash charging in ultimate and directional air dodges help him recover. He works really well with Ultimate's engine.

That's fair. I might be overestimating the hitbox size in my head.

On a different note, hitbox visualizations are finished for all (currently existing) characters in Ultimate at https://ultimateframedata.com/ which I think is spiffy.

https://ultimateframedata.com/hitboxes/terry/TerryRisingTackle.gif
Those are always helpful; you can see the blue intangibility disappear off Terry's legs at the top. But like Emblem Lord said, Terry players can also drop low and use magnet hands to grab the ledge without his legs popping above it. Terry seems better at high levels due to this and being technical. IMO he's a solid high tier. He has too much going for him to be any lower but also has lacking hitboxes (except on Go moves), especially on aerials. He might get zoned hard.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I got 7th at a tournament so I'm happy about that. A few observations:
probably have a slight advantage vs , especially . Chrom has what YL hates: fast disjoint that's bigger than his with better angles. Origionally I had this as even because Chrom gets gimped hard by YL and YL's Dsmash sends him at a very steep sideways angle that kills his cruddy recovery early. But Chrom can aggressively pressure YL and his shield and YL's bad OoS game can't do anything about it when spaced. Next time I'll try Wolf against them.
Chroy are lower top tiers. Like I said, their Orion score is artificially lowered by being split between them.

's a character who can beat anyone. He vortexes super hard, kills early and is a nightmare offstage. Pichu's thunder is a strait upgrade of Pikachu's because it always launches the way pichu's facing, even from behind. Pikachu's will launch backward from behind. The thing is he also is the ultimate glass cannon who dies earlier than anyone. So even after the nerfs imo Pichu's a solid high tier but no longer top.
IMO YL slightly wins this MU. He can play keep away with projectiles and Nair/Dair shut down Pichu's approaches hard. Pichu doesn't have the disjoint to contest them.

has a bunch of janky **** and good zoning with big disjointed aerials. IDK why players keep rating him any lower than high tier. Yeah his recovery can be swatted away but he can PKT2 faster than firefox starts and it's extremely powerful. Ness is also great at harassing in advantage with his PK moves and aerials. YOyo's great for shield pressure and 2 framing due to long smash charging in ultimate and directional air dodges help him recover. He works really well with Ultimate's engine.

https://ultimateframedata.com/hitboxes/terry/TerryRisingTackle.gif
Those are always helpful; you can see the blue intangibility disappear off Terry's legs at the top. But like Emblem Lord said, Terry players can also drop low and use magnet hands to grab the ledge without his legs popping above it. Terry seems better at high levels due to this and being technical. IMO he's a solid high tier. He has too much going for him to be any lower but also has lacking hitboxes (except on Go moves), especially on aerials. He might get zoned hard.

Let's not forget that Ness can also reliably stall with PK Flash if done correctly. Top Ness players have gotten pretty good at this and he has an insane airdodge. He still hasn't the best recovery but there are other characters, even in high rier, that have notable worse recoveries (Yes, it's you Chroy for example).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Let's not forget that Ness can also reliably stall with PK Flash if done correctly. Top Ness players have gotten pretty good at this and he has an insane airdodge. He still hasn't the best recovery but there are other characters, even in high rier, that have notable worse recoveries (Yes, it's you Chroy for example).

is unfortunately in the same club as and too.

Very good high-tier potential character, that just seem to have a very rough MU hard by one or more certain specific top-tier characters.

.......

............

Okay yeah, its .. I think I am getting why she is starting to get quite a lot of hate seeing how she hars gatekeeps many otherwise viable characters

But to be fair ness has unfortuantley has both Palu and Lucina as rough MU's who are top-tiers that are easy tp pick up and pretty common in most levels of play