Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Kokiden

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Agree'd, wholeheartedly. While we do have our moments, hidden in the rough is a great thread with meaningful analysis on lots of stuff. That idea towards balance gives some context to why people are afraid of nerfs, its less that they want their character to be dominant (but that is part of it =P ) and more that they want their character to feel like their character.

Bayo players, for example, didn't necessarily want their character to dominate the cast, but they wanted to play the fast moving, hard to punish, infinite combo tree goddess that she was. Which I understand, Bayonetta was a fun character to play, just not to play against. You want your character to feel powerful but you don't want your opponent to feel helpless (unless there is a huge skill disparity).

There is a lot to this thing after all. Which is why the meter nerfs are often suggested for Joker, it really doesn't feel like there is much counterplay to him getting arsene… I mean you don't want to hit his counter, especially with a powerful or multihit move... but these days it feels like jokers are learning where they are guaranteed to get it and using that mostly. and then when he gets it a single read can be the destruction of a hard-earned lead, where the patterns you gleaned may not mean much because he is free to play totally different when he has meter.


And I like this because, it doesn't take away from what is Joker. Watching MKLeo play the character is pretty amazing, you see small optimizations to his playstyle, slight tweeks everywhere, and he just moves fast and overwhelms pretty much everyone. We want that, no one wants that gone, we just don't want the opponent to have no recourse for it.
I play both Bayonetta and Joker. It sucks when the characters you love to play as are so controversial and get trashed on.

Bayonetta definitely doesn't feel like herself anymore.They already gutted Sheik. I don't want Joker to be like that too since he suits my play style so well.

The problem is, the demands for nerf won't stop with a mere meter nerf. People in this fanbase are very vocal about wanting all aspects of a character toned down until they're never heard about again. Only when a character disappears from the spotlight completely will the nerf talk die down.
 

The_Bookworm

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Wrath(:ultjoker::ultsonic: don't know who he used) 3-1 Tweek:ultjoker:

Tweek is out at 13th.

Edit: According to Twitch Chat, Wrath has been going solo Sonic this tournament. Both he and Sonido (who just defeated Salem and Mr E), are guaranteed at least 9th in this tournament. Then there is KEN's 2nd at Umebura.
Sonic has been going off this weekend. Maybe the Sonic Movie redesign power-up?
 
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Between Umebura and DreamHack, :ultsonic: mains are having a field day; aside from KEN's 2nd place, we have two Sonics that are one game away from Top 8.

I mean I can say on record that while I agreed with the current observation that Mkleo was the only solo :ultjoker: consistently bringing in top level results, it was less a matter of Joker being carried and more that the other Jokers just had work to do. Many have/had the potential but a lot either play tons of other characters a lot in bracket or just weren't as skilled. But I felt it was just a matter of time before some doubled down on him and could start achieving placements not far off from Mkleo's resume and this seems to highlight that. Zackray's Joker in particular is one I've had high hopes for but usually uses a ton of his other picks in bracket like :ultrob: and :ultwolf: which gives his Joker less spotlight. Maybe with this A tier win with apparently a solo Joker, Zackray will be more confident in using him for the majority of his brackets? In any case this should be a good example for the deceptively large amount of up and coming Jokers. Watch Wolf stay #1 on OrionStats though.

On another note, like several others here, I am quite elated to see :ultkirby: finally make his big breakt at a Japanese tourney and an A tier no less! Going by event ranking, this is indeed Kirby's best placing at an Ultimate tourney as of yet and solo nonetheless. (Tho Albion 4 had 200 more entrants so Jesuischoq's 33rd certainly isn't far behind). Despite being nonexistent in most results graphics for massive Japan events up until now, there's actually a deceptively sized pool of Kirby players in Japan including Mukyu, Kumataka, Konokurro and more but they weren't able to make that big break. Seeing it finally happen and not 2 weeks after 6.0.0 update which addressed a litany of issues for Kirby is quite the encouraging sign. Hopefully the other Kirbies there see improvements in their success there as well. Also quite interesting to note of all the characters who hit the jackpot in 6.0, Kirby was the only one to place here in Top 32. Arika's :ultjigglypuff: was present but he got 97th and I am not sure of any notable :ultkrool::ultrobin:or :ultdk: that were present. Will be interesting to see if they yield any breakouts as well in the future.

In any case, it's quite encouraging to see the buffs already helping out the playerbase.
Well, there was Tweek who won a B-Tier event with Solo Joker a while ago; then agaaaiiinnnn, that's not really a major success once you consider what MKLeo's had under his belt. That said, I'm honestly surprised out of the Jokers to replicate MKLeo's success, zackray would be the first to do it; not because I doubt the kid, he's a total prodigy, but like you said, he normally reserves solo'ing for smaller tournaments like the EGS Cup or The Little Big House 9. The fact that he used :ultmario: to win a Category 3 Tournament at one point really makes it hard for me to figure out what zackray has planned next for the future; if I were to make a guess, he'd probably stick to using :ultrob: and :ultjoker:, as well as a few other random secondaries. Zackray aside, :ultwolf: has the benefit of pretty much everyone either using him as a main or a back-up, but between this tourney and DreamHack Atlanta (Tweek, Ned), :ultjoker: is starting to go on quite the uprising, and I have a feeling Joker may usurp Wolf's position on the OrionStats soon XD.

As for Kirby, pushing my biased excitement aside, I do want to see if this kind of success continues or if it's just a one-time-thing, especially since Japan's pretty notorious for having some of the most wild sets out there (ProtoBanham getting 257th sort of speaks for itself). That said, I'm optimistic; outside of Japan, the US has got Komota and Europe has Jesuischoq, two already nasty Kirby players (and probably a lot of other strong Kirbys I don't know); if they were already doing well with pre-6.0.0 Kirby, I'm looking forward to how they'll perform now.
 
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Kokiden

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Interesting to note, but Zackray used Joker first before MkLeo once the character first dropped. He was winning locals and a small tourney with Joker before he started using the other characters more. After that, MkLeo won Shine and we all know what happens from then on.

At the time, he went back to ROB and I didn't get why he put Joker on the back burner, but it seems he's prioritising him more now.
 

The_Bookworm

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DreamHack Atlanta 2019

Winner's Top 8
Samsora:ultpeach: vs Dabuz:ultolimar:
Dark Wizzy:ultmario: vs Marss:ultzss:

Loser's Top 8
Cosmos:ultinkling: vs Wrath:ultsonic:
Goblin:ultroy: vs Light:ultfox:

9th: ESAM:ultpikachu:
9th: Ned:ultpokemontrainerf:
9th: MuteAce:ultpeach::ultpalutena:
9th: Sonido:ultsonic:
13th: 8BitMan:ultrob:
13th: Tweek:ultjoker:
13th: Mr E:ultlucina:
13th: LeoN:ultbowser:
17th: Salem:ultsnake::ulthero:
17th: Rideae:ultpichu:
17th: MVD:ultsnake:
17th: Larry Lurr:ultwolf:
17th: Toast:ultyounglink:
17th: Fatality:ultfalcon:
17th: Mekos:ultlucas:
17th: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
25th: Kola:ultroy:
25th: Benny&TheJets:ultrob:
25th: CD:ultroy:
25th: RFang:ultpichu:
25th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
25th: Donquavious:ultgreninja:
25th: Sandstorm:ult_terry:
25th: OverLade:ultridley:
 

VenomSnake

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I would like to point out that Wrath only used :ultsonic: for the entirety of Dreamhack.
Between Ken's 2nd place and Wrath making top 8 (as well as Sonido's final placement of 9th), Sonic really is showing how strong he can still be despite his dropoff in usage from the previous game.
 

Kokiden

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So does the migration to Joker and increasing results indicate that he is, in fact, overtuned?
Zackray always used Joker.

As for Tweek, he didn't even get into top 8 with him, so no. Let's not get into the whole carried business since Tweek did place 2nd at Evo with PT, which means he's a good player and places well regardless.

No Joker's in top 8. Notice how there are no Joker's in the top 8 whenever MkLeo or Zackray are absent?
 
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Diddy Kong

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Alright, @Rizen, what’s the deal. Meta differences aside, what’s your take on why Toon Link generally does so well (in Japan) as opposed to YL? I know T is T, and he achieves results that most Links don’t.

But! Sigma (when he shows up) is generally a top 8 fixture, Ri-ma and (now) Lv. 1 put up strong work regularly.

Is it that TL, being a bit more ground based, necessarily commits less in a game where aerials are generally the neutral tools? Is it the difference in ease of kill-set ups?

TL flies under the radar in the States due to a lack of top player rep, but Japan more than makes up for that.

On a side note: KEN is a beast.
Maybe Toon Link is actually better and we in the West just prefer the more rush down playstyle of Young Link, and the raw power Champion Link bring? Toon Link needs to be played with more patience I imagine, but he's got great tools all around. Also doesn't struggle with kills like YL, or struggle with keeping up as Link. Am just guessing here as I'm no expert in either, but I kind of see why it is what it is.
 
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Maybe Toon Link is actually better and we in the West just prefer the more rush down playstyle of Young Link, and the raw power Champion Link bring? Toon Link needs to be played with more patience I imagine, but he's got great tools all around. Also doesn't struggle with kills like YL, or struggle with keeping up as Link. Am just guessing here as I'm no expert in either, but I kind of see why it is what it is.
:ulttoonlink: is one of the many sleeper picks in this game.

He's fast, has good frame data for a swordie, super strong zoning, some viable out-of-shield options, an above average kill throw off the side, good combos, a decently strong, safe-ish Up-Smash and a recovery with tons of huge mix-up potential thanks to his fast air-speed, bombs and Z-Air.

He's clearly very good, but just hasn't had any big blowouts so far in the early meta game likely due to not having any fancy bells and whistles like his other incarnations.
 
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Anomika

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Toon Link :ulttoonlink: is in my opinion an all-round fighter with nothing too strong or too weak. His projectiles are good for zoning, ledgetrap (especially since his bombs last for very long) and starting combos but none of them feel too threatening (except the Bomb when it hits but at the same time it bounces back when hit by a lot of moves), the mobility is average / above average for a fighter with a lot of projectiles but he's floaty so he can have trouble landing, tilts and aerials are all recently fast, has a fast OoS option with Up B and all of them are sword swings so they are disjointed but nothing spectacular for its range and it doesn't help too much at disadvantage but it gives him good neutral and advantage, combined with the projectiles and occasionally Zair for long range poking. Smash attacks have average startup but relatively low endlag, making them decent for punishes or anti-airing, though their power is alright, nothing spectacular. He isn't a combo heavy fighter unlike Young Link :ultyounglink:, but he has several moves that can give good reward when landed, like bair or Bomb. His throws lack combo potential but give the opponents trouble getting back on stage with his disjoints and projectiles and back throw is a strong KO option. His recovery travels a good distance but is exploitable and it can KO offstage from a combo quite easily, which gives Toon Link some edgeguarding potential, but his dair is usually a no-no because it's a stall-and-fall, but it can potentially 2-frame or punish a regrab for a very strong meteor smash.

In my opinion, he's one of more balanced fighters in terms of attributes and frame data, but your opinion might not be the same. I would like to hear other opinions about him. Not a huge fan of him but I did play him for a while at the beginning and I like what Japanese players can bring out of him.
 

SwagGuy99

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:ulttoonlink: is one of the many sleeper picks in this game.

He's fast, has good frame data for a swordie, super strong zoning, some viable out-of-shield options, an above average kill throw of the side, good combos, a decently strong, safe-ish Up-Smash and a recovery with tons of huge mix-up potential thanks to his fast air-speed, bombs and Z-Air.

He's clearly very good, but just hasn't had any big blowouts so far in the early meta game likely due to not having as any fancy bells and whistles like his other incarnations.
Toon Link :ulttoonlink: is in my opinion an all-round fighter with nothing too strong or too weak. His projectiles are good for zoning, ledgetrap (especially since his bombs last for very long) and starting combos but none of them feel too threatening (except the Bomb when it hits but at the same time it bounces back when hit by a lot of moves), the mobility is average / above average for a fighter with a lot of projectiles but he's floaty so he can have trouble landing, tilts and aerials are all recently fast, has a fast OoS option with Up B and all of them are sword swings so they are disjointed but nothing spectacular for its range and it doesn't help too much at disadvantage but it gives him good neutral and advantage, combined with the projectiles and occasionally Zair for long range poking. Smash attacks have average startup but relatively low endlag, making them decent for punishes or anti-airing, though their power is alright, nothing spectacular. He isn't a combo heavy fighter unlike Young Link :ultyounglink:, but he has several moves that can give good reward when landed, like bair or Bomb. His throws lack combo potential but give the opponents trouble getting back on stage with his disjoints and projectiles and back throw is a strong KO option. His recovery travels a good distance but is exploitable and it can KO offstage from a combo quite easily, which gives Toon Link some edgeguarding potential, but his dair is usually a no-no because it's a stall-and-fall, but it can potentially 2-frame or punish a regrab for a very strong meteor smash.

In my opinion, he's one of more balanced fighters in terms of attributes and frame data, but your opinion might not be the same. I would like to hear other opinions about him. Not a huge fan of him but I did play him for a while at the beginning and I like what Japanese players can bring out of him.
Both of these posts do a good job of saying why :ulttoonlink: is a good character while explaining his what his strengths and weaknesses are. He's one of those characters who lacks any significant weaknesses while still having some good strengths that he can take advantage of. His strengths and weaknesses are a lot less polarizing than most characters as well. He doesn't really have a lot of unfair gimmicks, but like :toonlink: and :4tlink:, I think he is a decent high tier with a good matchup spread against most of the cast.
 
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The Marss vs Samsora WF set at Dreamhack Atlanta will have the distinction of being one of the most hype and unhype sets at the same time.

I mean Marss took it 3-2 over Samsora, almost every set went down to the wire with a last-stock, last hit situation.
But then right after game 4 there was a huge pause that lasted almost 10 minutes as they sat at the character select screen. The Youtube vid for this set is going to be..interesting
 
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Dabuz :ultpalutena::ultrosalina: 3-2s Dark Wizzy :ultmario:

As tempting as it is to get your jump-ins or get aggressive with your aerials, especially with a character like Mario no less, this set was the perfect example of why Palutena is probably the worst character to actually try that strategy against. Everytime he kept running up with a BAir/USmash only to get smacked in the face with Palutena's shield, I kinda died inside.
 
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Umm..why I never realized how strong ZSS's bair is? I mean in out most of his matches with rage powered bairs vs Samsora at Dreamhack Atlanta. Taking stocks at around 90-100 percent.

I mean when you giving Peach a run for mer money in shockingly powerful killing airiels..
 
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Idon

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Wow, I never realized how strong ZSS's bair is? I mean in out most of his matches with rage powered bairs vs Samsora at Dreamhack Atlanta. Taking stocks at around 90-100 percent.
The 150%+ rage and being near the ledge probably also helped a bunch, lol.
 

SwagGuy99

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According to Smash Wiki, :ultzss: back air kills at about 100% near the ledge on FD in Smash 4 and it seems to be similar in Ultimate.

But yeah. I really never noticed it killed that early either way.
 

The_Bookworm

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DreamHack Atlanta 2019


1st: Marss:ultzss:
2nd: Samsora:ultpeach::ultzss:
3rd: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:
4th: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
5th: Cosmos:ultinkling:
5th: Light:ultfox:
7th: Goblin:ultroy:
7th: Wrath:ultsonic:
9th: ESAM:ultpikachu:
9th: Ned:ultpokemontrainerf:
9th: MuteAce:ultpeach::ultpalutena:
9th: Sonido:ultsonic:
13th: 8BitMan:ultrob:
13th: Tweek:ultjoker:
13th: Mr E:ultlucina:
13th: LeoN:ultbowser:
17th: Salem:ultsnake::ulthero:
17th: Rideae:ultpichu:
17th: MVD:ultsnake:
17th: Larry Lurr:ultwolf:
17th: Toast:ultyounglink:
17th: Fatality:ultfalcon:
17th: Mekos:ultlucas:
17th: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
25th: Kola:ultroy:
25th: Benny&TheJets:ultrob:
25th: CD:ultroy:
25th: RFang:ultpichu:
25th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
25th: Donquavious:ultgreninja:
25th: Sandstorm:ult_terry:
25th: OverLade:ultridley:


Zss's bair kills mario below 100 at the edge of fd no rage and good DI. It can kill in the 80s and 70s on some with rage. It also has pretty high base kb so it kills extremely early offstage.

Bair is a pretty strong aerial especially for a character as mobile as zss.
I remember that in SSB4, her back air sourspot was smaller and it doesn't take priority over the sweetspot, so it used to be even easier to land the KO with back air.
 

SwagGuy99

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DreamHack Atlanta 2019


1st: Marss:ultzss:
2nd: Samsora:ultpeach::ultzss:
3rd: Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultpalutena:
4th: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
5th: Cosmos:ultinkling:
5th: Light:ultfox:
7th: Goblin:ultroy:
7th: Wrath:ultsonic:
9th: ESAM:ultpikachu:
9th: Ned:ultpokemontrainerf:
9th: MuteAce:ultpeach::ultpalutena:
9th: Sonido:ultsonic:
13th: 8BitMan:ultrob:
13th: Tweek:ultjoker:
13th: Mr E:ultlucina:
13th: LeoN:ultbowser:
17th: Salem:ultsnake::ulthero:
17th: Rideae:ultpichu:
17th: MVD:ultsnake:
17th: Larry Lurr:ultwolf:
17th: Toast:ultyounglink:
17th: Fatality:ultfalcon:
17th: Mekos:ultlucas:
17th: Epic_Gabriel:ultrob:
25th: Kola:ultroy:
25th: Benny&TheJets:ultrob:
25th: CD:ultroy:
25th: RFang:ultpichu:
25th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
25th: Donquavious:ultgreninja:
25th: Sandstorm:ult_terry:
25th: OverLade:ultridley:



I remember that in SSB4, her back air sourspot was smaller and it doesn't take priority over the sweetspot, so it used to be even easier to land the KO with back air.
In terms of character diversity here in the Top 32, we have:

3 or more players: :ultroy::ultrob:
2 players: :ultzss::ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultsonic::ultsnake::ultpichu:
1 player: :ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultmario::ultinkling::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultpokemontrainer::ultjoker::ultlucina::ultbowser::ulthero::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultfalcon::ultlucas::ultyoshi::ultgreninja::ult_terry::ultridley:



Right now, there are a few things I'd like to point out:
  • :ultroy: is starting to get more and more representation and high placings at bigger tournaments with 3 Roy's being in Top 32.
  • :ultsonic: is also getting better placings (in America) with 2 Sonics being in Top 32.
  • Other notable characters here in Top 32 are :ulthero::ultfalcon::ultlucas::ult_terry::ultridley:.
  • Only 1 :ultjoker: in Top 32 however, if MKLeo were participating, I'm sure there'd be at least 2.
 
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Okay, My thoughts on the top 5 characters im the game

:ultjoker::ultsnake::ultpeach::ultzss: and then possibly :ultpalutena:or:ultwario: for the last spot.

Also regarding :ulttoonlink:. He was considered at the beginning, and still not to be the "weakest Link." .sorry. Yet he likey is overtaking the other Links in term of overall resutls, if soley by his strong rep in Japan tournaments.
 
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Kokiden

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In terms of character diversity here in the Top 32, we have:

3 or more players: :ultroy::ultrob:
2 players: :ultzss::ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultsonic::ultsnake::ultpichu:
1 player: :ultolimar::ultrosalina::ultmario::ultinkling::ultfox::ultpikachu::ultpokemontrainer::ultjoker::ultlucina::ultbowser::ulthero::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultfalcon::ultlucas::ultyoshi::ultgreninja::ult_terry::ultridley:



Right now, there are a few things I'd like to point out:
  • :ultroy: is starting to get more and more representation and high placings at bigger tournaments with 3 Roy's being in Top 32.
  • :ultsonic: is also getting better placings (in America) with 2 Sonics being in Top 32.
  • Other notable characters here in Top 32 are :ulthero::ultfalcon::ultlucas::ult_terry::ultridley:.
  • Only 1 :ultjoker: in Top 32 however, if MKLeo were participating, I'm sure there'd be at least 2.
Very diverse character's in top 32.

I don't even want to hear one word about people complaining how any one character is dominating the game after seeing this.

Good to see Terry doing well, and Hero too. We will be seeing more of Terry I think. It seems Banjo is the only one who hasn't been doing too well overall in terms of DLC characters.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Most people consider Bayonetta to be very weak. What buffs would you suggest to make her better without going back to her Smash 4 status?

How about buffing her Neutral B so it can become less unsafe and situational?
 
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Most people consider Bayonetta to be very weak. What buffs would you suggest to make her better without going back to her Smash 4 status?

How about buffing her Neutral B so it can become less unsafe and situational?
Oh we're doing this again...


Okay I have a few notes:

-Directional Air-Dodge distance 17 to 20 (AKA it goes the same distance as everyone else's)

-Give F-Tilt less lag so there's more reason to use it.

-Let Up-Tilt connect properly.

-Reduce Landing Lag on her aerials:
*N-Air (Held): 18 to 10
*F-Air (Held): 18 to 12
*B-Air (Held): 16 to 12
*Up-Air (Held): 16 to 12
*D-Air(Overall): 30/38 to 24

(Tons of characters have crazy good landing lag, I think Bayo should get a slice of that pie now)


That's all I got.
 
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not touching any potneital bayo buff conversation

Now that the terry super hype/immediate fear has cooled and there have been some initial results on him as well as watching some of the smash shoto players like N, nitro, and sandstorm i do have a few thoughts on terry
1. he's the first combo character since bayonetta whose damage output, combo potential and KO potential varies greatly depending on your opponents DI knowledge and execution. the basic ***** tery combo is jab 1 jab 2 power dive (down b) this can be avoided by SDI in and this makes the terry player have to go for a 50-50offjab instead of a combo The terry can either go into rising tackle or power dive.

2. i know a lot of people were scared about the go moves. Terry living consistenly over 100 for a long stetch of time is goingto be rare. the character's horizontal recovery aint the best even when you use his mixups and tricks t o recover you are dependent on your oppoent being either ignorant or reserved to not come out and challenge

3. overall i think he has a strong neutral game and advantage state however i do think the lack of a focus like ryu and ken have hurts him a lot. i also think ken's gameplan to combo into Shoryuken is more consistent than what i have seen out of terry so far. i do however think he is better than ryu.
 

Cheryl~

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Very diverse character's in top 32.

I don't even want to hear one word about people complaining how any one character is dominating the game after seeing this.

Good to see Terry doing well, and Hero too. We will be seeing more of Terry I think. It seems Banjo is the only one who hasn't been doing too well overall in terms of DLC characters.
Banjo not doing too well has been kind of a surprise to me considering a lot of people decide to place him in high tier or the upper levels of mid tier in their tier lists. While Banjo does have an upset over VoiD to his name, he hasn’t really gotten any other major results since his release. Could this be because he’s a difficult to master character with his Egg Grenade setups, or is it because he might just be slightly undertuned overall? Personally I think a lot of Banjo’s moves suck compared to what the rest of the cast has. His Up-Air is supposed to be a combo tool yet doesn’t do that much damage and never kills, and his kill options are either very read-based (smash attacks, Wonderwing) or don’t kill very early at all (back-Air). He also has some minor issues with his hitboxes, mainly on Up-Tilt which would be a mini Snake Up-Tilt if it actually had a frontwards facing hitbox! I think these issues make Banjo’s killing power pretty crappy unless you land those reads, which Banjo players haven’t really mastered since well, they don’t got results right now. I think Banjo could use some tuneups to moves like Up-Air and Up-Tilt so they work better at what they’re supposed to do and so Banjo players don’t just spend the game getting people to 160% and clicking random Wonderwings once they realize their character can’t kill.
 

Kokiden

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Most people consider Bayonetta to be very weak. What buffs would you suggest to make her better without going back to her Smash 4 status?

How about buffing her Neutral B so it can become less unsafe and situational?
  • Less landing lag after she does ABK or Witch Twist.
  • increased power for her smash attacks. They're so weak that sometimes they don't even kill at high percent compared to other characters.

  • Make Witch Time useful! Less startup time, it lasts longer (2-3 seconds so we can actually do something)
  • nair has more knock back

  • her moves actually connecting. This one is more general, but I notice that her moves don't flow into one another like how it does for other characters.
  • I noticed that her fair intentionally drops really quickly after you do ABK, witch twist, ABK, and witch twist again. It's like it was intentionally programmed to fastfall and miss... fix that.
That's it. Her WT improvement is most important to me. Right now, it's so useless and unreliable.

I'd say give her more kill options, but the sounds of protests would ring aloud.

I do miss seeing her in competitive play. She went from one of the best characters, to being utter ****e. Talk about a massive downgrade...


Banjo not doing too well has been kind of a surprise to me considering a lot of people decide to place him in high tier or the upper levels of mid tier in their tier lists. While Banjo does have an upset over VoiD to his name, he hasn’t really gotten any other major results since his release. Could this be because he’s a difficult to master character with his Egg Grenade setups, or is it because he might just be slightly undertuned overall? Personally I think a lot of Banjo’s moves suck compared to what the rest of the cast has. His Up-Air is supposed to be a combo tool yet doesn’t do that much damage and never kills, and his kill options are either very read-based (smash attacks, Wonderwing) or don’t kill very early at all (back-Air). He also has some minor issues with his hitboxes, mainly on Up-Tilt which would be a mini Snake Up-Tilt if it actually had a frontwards facing hitbox! I think these issues make Banjo’s killing power pretty crappy unless you land those reads, which Banjo players haven’t really mastered since well, they don’t got results right now. I think Banjo could use some tuneups to moves like Up-Air and Up-Tilt so they work better at what they’re supposed to do and so Banjo players don’t just spend the game getting people to 160% and clicking random Wonderwings once they realize their character can’t kill.

I think people who are into the competitive scene probably don't find him that interesting to want to pick up and play. Aside from Tweek, no one else seems too fond or excited over him.

Everyone is sticking with their original mains for now and have no intention of trying someone new out from the looks of things.
 
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  • increased power for her smash attacks. They're so weak that sometimes they don't even kill at high percent compared to other characters.

  • Make Witch Time useful! Less startup time, it lasts longer (2-3 seconds so we can actually do something)
  • her moves actually connecting. This one is more general, but I notice that her moves don't flow into one another like how it does for other characters.
  • I noticed that her fair intentionally drops really quickly after you do ABK, witch twist, ABK, and witch twist again. It's like it was intentionally programmed to fastfall and miss... fix that.
That sounds like Sm4sh Bayo.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Banjo not doing too well has been kind of a surprise to me considering a lot of people decide to place him in high tier or the upper levels of mid tier in their tier lists. While Banjo does have an upset over VoiD to his name, he hasn’t really gotten any other major results since his release. Could this be because he’s a difficult to master character with his Egg Grenade setups, or is it because he might just be slightly undertuned overall? Personally I think a lot of Banjo’s moves suck compared to what the rest of the cast has. His Up-Air is supposed to be a combo tool yet doesn’t do that much damage and never kills, and his kill options are either very read-based (smash attacks, Wonderwing) or don’t kill very early at all (back-Air). He also has some minor issues with his hitboxes, mainly on Up-Tilt which would be a mini Snake Up-Tilt if it actually had a frontwards facing hitbox! I think these issues make Banjo’s killing power pretty crappy unless you land those reads, which Banjo players haven’t really mastered since well, they don’t got results right now. I think Banjo could use some tuneups to moves like Up-Air and Up-Tilt so they work better at what they’re supposed to do and so Banjo players don’t just spend the game getting people to 160% and clicking random Wonderwings once they realize their character can’t kill.
That is also kind of combined with Banjo being sort of a zoning character, or generally played in a playstyle that NA players generally aren't appealed by.
NA players generally like aggressive or sort of unga-bunga styled characters (which is why Hero is popular in lower levels of play).

This is why Banjo is significantly more popular in Japan (more popular than Hero is there ironically), because they like their patient playstyle characters, which is why characters like TLink and Duck Hunt have most of their notable players there and not here.

That sounds like Sm4sh Bayo.
It is still very far from SSB4 Bayo. The points Kokiden covered didn't even mention about reducing landing lag on her aerials, which is currently worse than some super-heavyweight characters' landing lags.

Either way, I think the Ultimate engine inherently will prevent Bayo from ever becoming as good as her SSB4 counterpart (greatly weakened rage, everyone else becoming much faster in terms of mobility and lag time, more options in general to deal with her gameplan, etc.), and considering the more conservative nature of balance patches, I doubt they are going to get any huge drastic changes to her (if we are getting any more changes to her at all).
 
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Kokiden

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 24, 2019
Messages
184
That sounds like Sm4sh Bayo.

No, smash 4 Bayo could actually kill.

Sm4sh Bayo can also do combos that Ultimate Bayo can never pull of either. Sm4sh Bayo also doesn't lag like a bad wifi connection and have only 1 kill option aside from her combos.

The changes I've suggested just make her work smoother, and feel better to control. She still wouldn't be able to kill even if the game depended on it... which happens quite a lot.

Then again, I'm aware that any improvement to Bayo would be "omg that's smash 4 bayo all over again!" to the ones that enjoy seeing how bad she is and want her to stay there.


Either way, I think the Ultimate engine inherently will prevent Bayo from ever becoming as good as her SSB4 counterpart (greatly weakened rage, everyone else becoming much faster in terms of mobility and lag time, more options in general to deal with her gameplan, etc.), and considering the more conservative nature of balance patches, I doubt they are going to get any huge drastic changes to her (if we are getting any more changes to her at all).

This. The Ultimate engine being what it is just ensures Bayonetta will stay bad no matter what.

They're not going to fix her. She's never going to be viable in this game, or the next. Seeing how the average smash fan hates her, they're probably wary of making her good.

I also think she's not going to get anymore buffs in future patches either.
 
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Emblem Lord

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not touching any potneital bayo buff conversation

Now that the terry super hype/immediate fear has cooled and there have been some initial results on him as well as watching some of the smash shoto players like N, nitro, and sandstorm i do have a few thoughts on terry
1. he's the first combo character since bayonetta whose damage output, combo potential and KO potential varies greatly depending on your opponents DI knowledge and execution. the basic ***** tery combo is jab 1 jab 2 power dive (down b) this can be avoided by SDI in and this makes the terry player have to go for a 50-50offjab instead of a combo The terry can either go into rising tackle or power dive.

2. i know a lot of people were scared about the go moves. Terry living consistenly over 100 for a long stetch of time is goingto be rare. the character's horizontal recovery aint the best even when you use his mixups and tricks t o recover you are dependent on your oppoent being either ignorant or reserved to not come out and challenge

3. overall i think he has a strong neutral game and advantage state however i do think the lack of a focus like ryu and ken have hurts him a lot. i also think ken's gameplan to combo into Shoryuken is more consistent than what i have seen out of terry so far. i do however think he is better than ryu.
He has way more stuff than jab combos.

Ken shoryu confirms are cool.

Except when you need that kill and they drop out. And unlike Terry who has two other moves that can be comboed into to kill at similar percents, shoryu confirm is ken's BnB.

Focus is ass and top tiers don't give a damn about it.

Riddles took 1st at a tournament with fresh Terry, while Venom placed 7th(?) with shotos.

Make of that what you will.
 
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Banjo issue's on one side people want to see DLC played. on the other they get upset when dlc has all these new shiny options and tools and replaces thier favorite characters in the meta. Nostalgia alone will not get characters played. banjo is viewed as dull movesetwise and in some circles he is seen as a worse duck hunt/snake.
banjo playing appeal is lower than the rest o fthe DLC, even hero.
Now like smash 4 duck hunt, it is possible that the entire western player base is playing him wrong and we need japan to show us a playstyle palate. it has happened before not just in smash 4 but also in mvc3 with vergil and Rocket racoon.
 
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Kokiden

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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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OrionStats got updated and the biggest takeaway is Joker and Wolf are almost tied for 1st. Joker is only 2 points behind at this point.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...j4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=342014565
Other things I noticed:

:ultpichu: made a large leap to 21st in the stats, overtaking :ultpikachu::ultchrom::ultbowser: in the rankings. Definitely a large improvement over its lackluster first half of season 2.

The 30th-41st places kind of shuffled around a little bit:
:ultrosalina: rose to 30th in the rankings.
:ultdiddy: took a bit of a drop in the rankings to 38th.
:ulttoonlink: has overtaken :ultrichter::ultsamus: in the rankings to be 39th.

:ultbanjokazooie: has risen to 42nd in the rankings somehow.
:ultlucario: has risen a notable amount to be 44th in the rankings.
:ultike: he rises even further beyond, now overtaking :ultsheik::ultrobin: to be 46th in the rankings.
:ultlucas: Mekos' nice performance this weekend allows him to rise to 49th over :ultridley:. Still a bit confused on where he gets some of these results, but with some other characters somewhat stagnating, it somewhat makes sense.
:ultkingdedede:, despite some saying that he is keep dropping off the meta, has ironically risen even further in the rankings, now being 51st.
:ulticeclimbers::ultdoc: have both dropped a notable amount this weekend, especially ICs, due to stagnate results as of late. Both of them are at 57th, now being ranked below Dedede, Zelda, Ryu, and Bayo.
:ultcorrinf: has fallen into a bigger abyss. Already ranked as the worst in the rankings, she is still stuck with 1.5 points, while second lowest ranked, :ultmewtwo:, has 12 points. She is being falling behind a notable amount and I really don't see that changing.

Never really heard of this, but just to be sure, if this a chart of accumulated results for a character?

So a way to determine who the "best" character in the game is?
Not really. It is sort of a "trend" chart, although it is cumulative throughout the season. We do try to account for inconsistencies, but we don't use the chart as law on what is going on in the metagame.

It is simply a source we can work with.
 

SwagGuy99

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Other things I noticed:


:ultcorrinf: has fallen into a bigger abyss. Already ranked as the worst in the rankings, she is still stuck with 1.5 points, while second lowest ranked, :ultmewtwo:, has 12 points. She is being falling behind a notable amount and I really don't see that changing.
I'm going to be honest, while I don't think :ultcorrin: is the worst character in the game, I think I've given up on thinking of her as a mid tier. She just doesn't stand out compared to the rest of the roster but unlike :ultpit: and :ultdarkpit: who also similar in that sense, Corrin has worse mobility, initial dash, anti-camping game, recovery, and combo game so she isn't even as good as them and they are debatly lower mid tiers already. I'd argue that she is definitely bottom 10 and could be as low as bottom 5 if nobody picks her up and can rescue her from her horrible tournament results.
 

BitBitio

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Jul 8, 2019
Messages
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:ultkirby: is ranked much higher this season. I am not sure if that is because he was buffed or by natural result accumulation but I feel he’s only going to improve.
 
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