Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Kokiden

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 24, 2019
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380
Nerfing Arsene meter and how long he appears for is just another way of saying people don't want him to appear aor be useful at all.

It'll be like Bayonetta's appalling Witch Time. It's there, but does jack all.
 

Kokiden

Smash Journeyman
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So, not wanting Joker to start with 40% of the gauge already filled on the third stock equates to wanting the entire thing gutted? Oh, poor Joker, how dare he have to play by normal rules.
Who said anything about wanting him starting with 40% gauge?

Making his meter fill slowly is fine. But shortening the time he's out? Might as well come out and say you want Arsene to become like Bayonetta useless witch time that does nothing 90% of the time.

This is one of the things I really do not like about the smash fanbase.

Whenever they ask for nerfs, it's always multiple things at once. One thing at a time, is not enough. Zero moderation.

Asking for too much at once, especially when it comes to nerfs, could potentially destroy a character.

Do people even care about that? Or do they just want to see a character they don't like gutted out of spite?

I'll also add that the opponent's play style is something to take into consideration too, something this conversation doesn't even touch on.

I can pick up Zelda and Link, and make them hell for the other person. It will be tedious as ****, but there's nothing the other person can do to stop me. These characters aren't top tier, tournament winning characters either. If someone spams a move for any character, that will be tedious and tough to contend with, especially if it's a projectile or fast and heavy hitting move.

Sometimes it's the other person playing like a troll. Other times, you're just not as good a player as you think you are. Blaming the character seems easier than admitting this it seems.

I have yet to come across someone who admits that they lost because they're just not good. It's always "I lost because [insert character] is so OP, is unfair, and needs nerfs to balance them."
 
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To go away from patch talk for a bit, seedings from DreamHack Atlanta have been revealed. It was originally a B-Tier event, but after a ton of high-level players signed up for it, it pretty much skyrocketed into a mid-A tier event.

DreamHack Atlanta Top 60 Seedings

1. Samsora :ultpeach:
2. Tweek :ultjoker: (:ultwario::ultpokemontrainerf::ultyounglink:)
3. Marss :ultzss: (:ultmegaman:)
4. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina:(:ultpalutena:)
5. ESAM :ultpikachu:
6. Light :ultfox:
7. LeoN :ultbowser:
8. Salem :ultsnake::ulthero:(:ultzss::ultbayonetta::ultshulk:)
9. Cosmos :ultinkling:
10. Dark Wizzy :ultmario:
11. RFang :ultpichu:(:ultpalutena:)
12. Kola (Salt One) :ultroy:(:ultcloud::ultsnake:)
13. ScAtt :ultmegaman::ultsnake:
14. MuteAce :ultpeach:(:ultpalutena:)
15. Goblin :ultroy:
16. Blacktwins13 :ultpichu:(:ultmario:)
17. Larry Lurr :ultwolf:
18. MVD :ultsnake:
19. Jw :ultgreninja:
20. Mr E :ultlucina:
21. Ned :ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker:(:ultcloud:)
22. Wrath :ultsonic::ultjoker:
23. Suarez :ultyoshi:
24. Sandstorm :ult_terry::ultryu::ultken:
25. Peabnut :ultmegaman:
26. 8BitMan :ultrob:
27. Sonido :ultsonic:
28. Fatality :ultfalcon:
29. Mystearica :ultpalutena:(:ultzelda:)
30. Vinny G :ultsnake:
31. Donquavious :ultgreninja:
32. Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:
33. Toast :ultyounglink:
34. Aikota :ultgunner::ultzelda:
35. ChillyChilli :ultmario:(:ultpikachu:)
36. Mekos :ultlucas:
37. Uncivil ninja :ultshulk:
38. Ridae :ultpikachu:
39. Pipp :ultsnake:
40. Ross :ultbanjokazooie::ultjoker::ultlink:
41. WonderBread :ultroy::ultlucina:
42. Tachyon :ultpichu:
43. Aperture :ultinkling:
44. Dazai :ultroy:
45. Player-1 :ultdiddy:
46. C2 :ultpikachu::ultpalutena:
47. Ryo :ultike:
48. Neos :ultrosalina:
49. Danye :ultbowser:
50. JLim :ultsnake:
51. Synergy :ultrobinf:
52. Benny&TheJets :ultrob:
53. iTheta :ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter:
54. MopN :ultroy:
55. Phuzix :ultsheik:
56. OverLade :ultpalutena:
57. Ataraxia :ultgnw:
58. DoctorKayh :ultcloud:
59. Dr. Copter :ultgreninja:
60. 0mart :ultsnake:

LeoN seems a little overseeded (above Cosmos and Salem?) and Benny seems a little underseeded, but other than that, it looks pretty standard.
 
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Of that entire post, this is about the only thing I don’t agree with. Typically the balancing ideology you will see in most fighting games is that the characters who are considered to be higher tier have extremely high technical requirements. Usually. I agree that Joker and Peach on average are more technically demanding than Palutena and Lucina but from my experience with games like Guilty Gear and Tekken, which are known for their technical difficulty, the dexterity based requirements a character has at higher play is actually more of an absolute implementation that can be compared between multiple games as opposed to being localized within one game.

Basically, what I’m getting at is Joker and Peach, in the general scheme of things, are not that much harder to play than Palutena or Lucina or anyone else for that matter (from an execution standpoint anyway, I could see arguments being made for the decision making process) and compared to low tiers like Dhalsim in SFIV or Zato in Rev 2 they are piss easy. I’m fine with both characters being top tier, but overall I do not like how they get a lot of mileage out doing things that are trivially easy to pull off. I kinda wish Nintendo would raise the execution demands for some of these characters in that regard, as I feel it would justify their stronger aspects.
i can see you play traditional fighters i do as well. personally i feel smash would benefit from more moves and options in characters, however that opinion is not well received among many/most smash players. everytime a character comes out that requires inputs it leads to a bunch of whining or self defeated players that think its impossible to learn even when sakurai made terry's inputs EXTREMELY generous.
 
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1,351
I think the maintence has not stared, and it not going to happen today. The poated time was from 4:50-6:30 Pacific Time.

Weird, I wonder what was the delay?
 
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BitBitio

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Arthur97

Smash Champion
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Who said anything about wanting him starting with 40% gauge?

Making his meter fill slowly is fine. But shortening the time he's out? Might as well come out and say you want Arsene to become like Bayonetta useless witch time that does nothing 90% of the time.
Uh, that generally seems to be one of the big complaints. It is a bit ridiculous for him to start his third stock with so much already filled and it's not like its hard to fill up anyway. I mean, compare how long Arsene is out to how long he isn't especially when base Joker already isn't bad. Add that to how hard almost everything Arsene does hits and you have a hard time justifying that he isn't a bit overtuned. Broken? No, but overtuned. He could stand some nerfs, and it might even be healthy to knock him down a peg to be just good as opposed to overtuned. To what extent it needs to be, I don't know. Personally, I'd remove the comeback parts of the gauged and, yeah, maybe reduce how long he's out as he's out a good bit with skilled players.

Besides, if Peach, Wolf, Lucina, and Pichu can all be nerfed, then Joker can too.
 
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Kokiden

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Messages
380
Uh, that generally seems to be one of the big complaints. It is a bit ridiculous for him to start his third stock with so much already filled and it's not like its hard to fill up anyway. I mean, compare how long Arsene is out to how long he isn't especially when base Joker already isn't bad. Add that to how hard almost everything Arsene does hits and you have a hard time justifying that he isn't a bit overtuned. Broken? No, but overtuned. He could stand some nerfs, and it might even be healthy to knock him down a peg to be just good as opposed to overtuned. To what extent it needs to be, I don't know. Personally, I'd remove the comeback parts of the gauged and, yeah, maybe reduce how long he's out as he's out a good bit with skilled players.

Besides, if Peach, Wolf, Lucina, and Pichu can all be nerfed, then Joker can too.
I can't say I agree with the "if other characters got nerfed, then others should too." It justifies wanting to pull something down just because it's good too much for my liking.

Although I personally don't think he needs nerfs, I wouldn't be opposed to some minor tweaks, so long as it's not major, or too many at once.

Making the gauge fill slower over time and not having a head start in the gauge once he loses a stock is enough imo.

Making it harder to get Arsene and making his appearance too short resembles Bayonetta Witch Time too much, and I'm not for that at all.
 

SwagGuy99

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Messages
454
I'm getting really impatient on waiting for the update (if it's even happening, I'm getting mixed signals here) LOL.

I'm not expecting any major nerfs in this patch. :ultzss: and :ultpalutena: are the ones who I think are the most likely to get nerfed but I don't think any character will get majorly changed (if anyone is changed at all) in this patch, especially when compared to 6.0.0.

We'll see I guess.
 

BlackInk

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Uh, that generally seems to be one of the big complaints. It is a bit ridiculous for him to start his third stock with so much already filled and it's not like its hard to fill up anyway. I mean, compare how long Arsene is out to how long he isn't especially when base Joker already isn't bad. Add that to how hard almost everything Arsene does hits and you have a hard time justifying that he isn't a bit overtuned. Broken? No, but overtuned. He could stand some nerfs, and it might even be healthy to knock him down a peg to be just good as opposed to overtuned. To what extent it needs to be, I don't know. Personally, I'd remove the comeback parts of the gauged and, yeah, maybe reduce how long he's out as he's out a good bit with skilled players.

Besides, if Peach, Wolf, Lucina, and Pichu can all be nerfed, then Joker can too.
Joker only starts out with a big amount of gauge if he is behind.
 

Arthur97

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Messages
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Joker only starts out with a big amount of gauge if he is behind.
That's potentially worse since it's essentially a reward for losing. At least with stuff like Aura or KO! you theoretically could also be rewarded for surviving (to a degree for Aura as stocks also affect it) as well as a comeback mechanic. Granted, I think that is also a bit problematic as a lead extender, but at least it's not just straight up do worse and get rewarded.
 

BlackInk

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That's potentially worse since it's essentially a reward for losing. At least with stuff like Aura or KO! you theoretically could also be rewarded for surviving (to a degree for Aura as stocks also affect it) as well as a comeback mechanic. Granted, I think that is also a bit problematic as a lead extender, but at least it's not just straight up do worse and get rewarded.
Joker’s mechanic inherently balances itself up because it’s a temporary form. It’s way better than those two comeback mechanics, because he has a strong tool that needs to be used wisely.
 

Kokiden

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Messages
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That's potentially worse since it's essentially a reward for losing. At least with stuff like Aura or KO! you theoretically could also be rewarded for surviving (to a degree for Aura as stocks also affect it) as well as a comeback mechanic. Granted, I think that is also a bit problematic as a lead extender, but at least it's not just straight up do worse and get rewarded.
KO! is permanent once Terry reaches 100%, and possesses power and moves that can take new stocks quite easily in the hands of a skilled player.

I'm not sure how Arsene is worse.

That being said, I wouldn't change a thing about Terry either.

I can't help but think that some people just want everyone to be the same or something, since some people speak like standout things that make characters unique and amazing (Joker's down gun, Bayo's bats within, Peach's float ability, etc) should be done away with.


Get hit, build meter? What needs to be used wisely?
Using down B to build the gauge, and capitalising as much as possible when Arsene comes out. Don't spam down B (what most Joker players I come across do), which is not building the gauge wisely.

Whenever I come across Joker players online, I go ham on them with Bayo combos and they don't even have the opportunity to use Arsene.

Some people speak as if Arsene coming out is a 100% lose scenario, when it's not. You can take him down. Running away, as seems to be the common strategy, just gives him an opportunity to chase you and curb stomp you.
 
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Crooked Crow

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KO! is permanent once Terry reaches 100%, and possesses power and moves that can take new stocks quite easily in the hands of a skilled player.

I'm not sure how Arsene is worse.

That being said, I wouldn't change a thing about Terry either.

I can't help but think that some people just want everyone to be the same or something, since some people speak like standout things that make characters unique and amazing (Joker's down gun, Bayo's bats within, Peach's float ability, etc) should be done away with.




Using down B to build the gauge, and capitalising as much as possible when Arsene comes out. Don't spam down B (what most Joker players I come across do), which is not building the gauge wisely.

Whenever I come across Joker players online, I go ham on them with Bayo combos and they don't even have the opportunity to use Arsene.

Some people speak as if Arsene coming out is a 100% lose scenario, when it's not. You can take him down. Running away, as seems to be the common strategy, just gives him an opportunity to chase you and curb stomp you.
I mean, you're not incorrect, but I'd hardly equate "not spamming a move" to "must use it wisely." That's applicable for practically everything. It's vague.

And Joker (Arsene) has extremely large hitboxes that snuff me out and I usually lose the trade. So you're saying not to play defensively?
 
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Kokiden

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I mean, you're not incorrect, but I'd hardly equate "not spamming a move" to "must use it wisely." That's applicable for practically everything. It's vague.

And Joker (Arsene) has extremely large hitboxes that snuff me out and I usually lose the trade. So you're saying not to play defensively?
Yes. Bayo is not exactly the most nifty character and has a lot of end lag, but I've tried playing defensively when Arsene comes out and he punishes me for it.

Be aggressive. Give him no breathing room. It's worked for me thus far and I haven't had problems with Joker players.

I don't know how to explain it, but spacing so that I can get out of range and then go in for the combo works. Timing and spacing then find an opportunity to be aggressive, is what I'm saying.
 
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BlackInk

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Messages
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Yes. Bayo is not exactly the most nifty character and has a lot of end lag, but I've tried playing defensively when Arsene comes out and he punishes me for it.

Be aggressive. Give him no breathing room. It's worked for me thus far and I haven't had problems with Joker players.

I don't know how to explain it, but spacing so that I can get out of range and then go in for the combo works. Timing and spacing then find an opportunity to be aggressive, is what I'm saying.
Plus, Joker has some match ups that go from bad to worse. Just look at his matchup with Inkling, you don’t want Arsene unless you’re asking for an ass beating.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
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The_Bookworm

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It's interesting how some Japanese pros don't see Mac as bottom tier.

Tsu had him on c tier from his list a month ago:
https://mobile.twitter.com/tkmtbs/status/1179417757923909633?s=20

Abadango also had him in B tier in his recent one
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/eXcs9wf
Little Mac's presence in the Japanese scene is notably stronger than pretty much everywhere else, so it makes sense.
The severe lack of YLink in Japan also contributes to him being placed pretty low.

There are overall a whole lot of very odd placements from Japan tier lists.

There are lots of interesting outside-the-bubble placements here, but to my eye the biggest is where Raito has Lucas.
Both Raito and Abadango had Lucas ranked pretty dang high and a whole letter tier above Ness, while Tsu simply placed the two next to eachother.

I am kind of confused about this. Considering Gackt's reign in the Japanese scene, you would assume that they would rank Ness much higher in the tier list.
Considering the lack of anyone playing Lucas in Japan (or anywhere), let alone placing well with him, I am a bit confused why they would rank Lucas so high.
Maybe they think the recent return of Taiheita will instantly shoot up Lucas high in the tier list?

It is kind of an enigma.
 
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Consider the cognitive hoops one has to jump through to believe Namco is releasing a knee jerk balance patch:
  • It contradicts past priors that Namco would make any balance changes, of any kind, so quickly.
  • It contradicts past priors that Namco would want to distribute any balance changes not alongside a new feature.
  • It contradicts past priors that Namco gives any weight to Day 1 knee jerk reactions. (Especially since no one is actually upset about Terry...?)
  • It contradicts past priors that Namco has to obey the same temporal constraints of our universe and international distribution as everyone else.
On the other hand, it is 100% consistent and easy to believe that "Namco is urgently patching some bugs that freeze the game, corrupt saves, or damage hardware, and in this instance replays are breaking."
To no surprise of anyone who was paying close attention, Patch 6.1.0 just dropped. As expected, it was a hotfix to quickly take care of a game-breaking Terry interaction (buster wolf nana glitch): https://www-aaaba-lp1-hac.cdn.nintendo.net/en-US/14aac34c/index.html

Given how close this update was to Terry going public, I would've been genuinely surprised to see a large balance patch immediately following the one we just received. While I personally wish for my own small share of changes and fixes (multi-hits need help), it seems I'll have to wait just a little while longer...
 
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To no surprise of anyone who was paying close attention, Patch 6.1.0 just dropped. As expected, it was a hotfix to quickly take care of a game-breaking Terry bug interaction: https://www-aaaba-lp1-hac.cdn.nintendo.net/en-US/14aac34c/index.html

Given how close this update was to Terry going public, I would've been genuinely surprised to see a large balance patch immediately following the one we just received. While I personally wish for my own small share of changes and fixes (multi-hits need help), it seems I'll have to wait just a little while longer...
Now to wait for the unlisted changes...
 
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To go away from patch talk for a bit, seedings from DreamHack Atlanta have been revealed. It was originally a B-Tier event, but after a ton of high-level players signed up for it, it pretty much skyrocketed into a mid-A tier event.

DreamHack Atlanta Top 60 Seedings

1. Samsora :ultpeach:
2. Tweek :ultjoker: (:ultwario::ultpokemontrainerf::ultyounglink:)
3. Marss :ultzss: (:ultmegaman:)
4. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina:(:ultpalutena:)
5. ESAM :ultpikachu:
6. Light :ultfox:
7. LeoN :ultbowser:
8. Salem :ultsnake::ulthero:(:ultzss::ultbayonetta::ultshulk:)
9. Cosmos :ultinkling:
10. Dark Wizzy :ultmario:
11. RFang :ultpichu:(:ultpalutena:)
12. Kola (Salt One) :ultroy:(:ultcloud::ultsnake:)
13. ScAtt :ultmegaman::ultsnake:
14. MuteAce :ultpeach:(:ultpalutena:)
15. Goblin :ultroy:
16. Blacktwins13 :ultpichu:(:ultmario:)
17. Larry Lurr :ultwolf:
18. MVD :ultsnake:
19. Jw :ultgreninja:
20. Mr E :ultlucina:
21. Ned :ultpokemontrainerf::ultjoker:(:ultcloud:)
22. Wrath :ultsonic::ultjoker:
23. Suarez :ultyoshi:
24. Sandstorm :ult_terry::ultryu::ultken:
25. Peabnut :ultmegaman:
26. 8BitMan :ultrob:
27. Sonido :ultsonic:
28. Fatality :ultfalcon:
29. Mystearica :ultpalutena:(:ultzelda:)
30. Vinny G :ultsnake:
31. Donquavious :ultgreninja:
32. Epic_Gabriel :ultrob:
33. Toast :ultyounglink:
34. Aikota :ultgunner::ultzelda:
35. ChillyChilli :ultmario:(:ultpikachu:)
36. Mekos :ultlucas:
37. Uncivil ninja :ultshulk:
38. Ridae :ultpikachu:
39. Pipp :ultsnake:
40. Ross :ultbanjokazooie::ultjoker::ultlink:
41. WonderBread :ultroy::ultlucina:
42. Tachyon :ultpichu:
43. Aperture :ultinkling:
44. Dazai :ultroy:
45. Player-1 :ultdiddy:
46. C2 :ultpikachu::ultpalutena:
47. Ryo :ultike:
48. Neos :ultrosalina:
49. Danye :ultbowser:
50. JLim :ultsnake:
51. Synergy :ultrobinf:
52. Benny&TheJets :ultrob:
53. iTheta :ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter:
54. MopN :ultroy:
55. Phuzix :ultsheik:
56. OverLade :ultpalutena:
57. Ataraxia :ultgnw:
58. DoctorKayh :ultcloud:
59. Dr. Copter :ultgreninja:
60. 0mart :ultsnake:

LeoN seems a little overseeded (above Cosmos and Salem?) and Benny seems a little underseeded, but other than that, it looks pretty standard.
Neither Aikota nor Mystearica seem to be playing Zelda anymore.
 

Anomika

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I wasn't expecting the balance changes to come so soon only a few days after a previous one, but the numbering system is now kinda getting wonky. I think Joker's :ultjoker: Final Smash being stuck in his Classic Mode was bigger of an issue in general but the bugfix happened in 3.0.1 and not 3.1.0.

But we do have a hint whether the next patch will bring balance changes or not, and that's when Nintendo's official Twitter accounts mention fighter changes when you're supposed to save replays, according to Meshima. So, numbering system probably means nothing, except probably x.0.0 when a new fighter gets released.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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The question is, have we arrived at 'perfect' balance? If not, we can do better. I'll never understand the mentality of 'nailed it, stop updating our game now'... except I guess people fear nerfs on their character, which I legitimately understand because the Peach fair nerf is frustrating to me as well (ZSS gets to be much more mobile and her bair slaughters you at lower percentages too? It seems to at least, the nerf is quite noticeable on the Peach end and people survive to high damages against Peach pretty frequently.)

But haven't all these buffs been wonderful? I love when a neglected character gets some more gas, it can only serve to make our game more diverse. And all the nerfs so far have been extremely conservative, not a single move has been 'gutted' so much as it kills slightly later, does a bit less damage, etc etc. Projectiles were the closest thing to being gutted, and honestly that was a positive change for the game in so many ways.
And to add to the idea, perfect balance shouldn't be a desirable outcome for your game. Buffs are wonderful not because they balance the roster, but because they make lesser characters more fun to play.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 28, 2016
Messages
454

Raito's tier list. It is not ordered.

blackghost blackghost I know your opinion on Bayo but this seems overkill
That Mario placement is kind of wack, unordered or not. There is no reason to have Mario this far below characters like Fox and Shulk when I'd argue he's about as good as they are.
 
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And to add to the idea, perfect balance shouldn't be a desirable outcome for your game. Buffs are wonderful not because they balance the roster, but because they make lesser characters more fun to play.
I think you’re equating a character’s perceived placement on the tier list with how fun they are. Good =/= Fun and Bad =/= Unfun. Buffs are designed purely to balance the roster. If a character is perceived as unfun by the community and balancing team, they rework the character’s aspects, which is just as likely to include nerfs as buffs.
 

Planty

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Of that entire post, this is about the only thing I don’t agree with. Typically the balancing ideology you will see in most fighting games is that the characters who are considered to be higher tier have extremely high technical requirements. Usually. I agree that Joker and Peach on average are more technically demanding than Palutena and Lucina but from my experience with games like Guilty Gear and Tekken, which are known for their technical difficulty, the dexterity based requirements a character has at higher play is actually more of an absolute implementation that can be compared between multiple games as opposed to being localized within one game.

Basically, what I’m getting at is Joker and Peach, in the general scheme of things, are not that much harder to play than Palutena or Lucina or anyone else for that matter (from an execution standpoint anyway, I could see arguments being made for the decision making process) and compared to low tiers like Dhalsim in SFIV or Zato in Rev 2 they are piss easy. I’m fine with both characters being top tier, but overall I do not like how they get a lot of mileage out doing things that are trivially easy to pull off. I kinda wish Nintendo would raise the execution demands for some of these characters in that regard, as I feel it would justify their stronger aspects.
The interesting part of fighting games come from player-player interactions and their choice of options. Raising technical requirements for the sake of arbitrarily making things harder for players does nothing except make the game harder to get into, frustrating, and more inconsistent. I completely absolutely totally 100% disagree with you that it's ok to make certain characters better than others if you arbitrarily raise their execution requirements.
 

J0eyboi

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569
I wasn't expecting the balance changes to come so soon only a few days after a previous one, but the numbering system is now kinda getting wonky. I think Joker's :ultjoker: Final Smash being stuck in his Classic Mode was bigger of an issue in general but the bugfix happened in 3.0.1 and not 3.1.0.
It's pretty simple; n.x.0 patches break replays, n.n.x patches don't. It was impossible for the Joker bug to be seen in a replay because it A) was in classic mode and B) softlocked the game. If your switch doesn't die, it's possible to save a replay containing the freeze glitch on 6.0.0 because it doesn't necessarily crash the game and could happen in normal matches.
 
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The interesting part of fighting games come from player-player interactions and their choice of options. Raising technical requirements for the sake of arbitrarily making things harder for players does nothing except make the game harder to get into, frustrating, and more inconsistent. I completely absolutely totally 100% disagree with you that it's ok to make certain characters better than others if you arbitrarily raise their execution requirements.
This is not some arbitrary idea some random developers put inside select games as of recently. The concept of “this technique is difficult to perform so it gives stronger benefits as a reward” is older than everyone on this forum and has been proven time and time again to work. If you think Tekken 7 is “harder to get into, frustrating, and more inconsistent” than Smash because the technical requirements for that game are much higher, then I don’t think you’ve ever played any fighting game outside Smash seriously. And as an aside, I’m not saying that all difficult characters = good characters or that it should even be that way. I’m saying that as a general rule the upper crest of characters in most fighting games can/should get their stronger aspects at the cost of having to put in more work for it.

EDIT: As an aside, Tekken is wayyy more consistent than smash will ever hope to be if we’re talking about tier list placements, character performance, balance patches, and general meta. The same is true of pretty much every current fighting game not named SFV.
 
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