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's OP or not, he gets Aresene too easily. Aresene should be a reward for smart use of rebel's guard not something you get 20% meter of for dying.That gimmick isn’t even the most bs in the game and it has some severe weaknesses that ironically help to balance out Joker. Arsene may be good but its recovery is bad.Regardless of if
You mean the directional invincible flight that lets Joker go even farther offstage?
getting a part of his gauge back when he's KOd... unfortunately I don't think this part is going to get nerfed so he doesn't get any gauge back (but maybe they could still potentially reduce the gain, just not fully), because of in-game tips mentioning it (I think I saw it being mentioned in Help > Techniques yesterday), and I doubt Ninco would completely remove that option. Nerf it somewhat? Could happen. Nerf so that he doesn't get anything? Very unlikely.
I think most people's issue stems from the way the Rebel Gauge charges.
Peach wasn’t broken and she had to get nerfed. I feel he’s getting a pass just because he’s DLC. I don’t really care either way what happens to him, but some of his stuff does need to be toned down IMO.
Greninja absolutely was killed by his initial nerfs. He went from winning tournaments in Japan to being entirely competitively irrelevant.Barely any characters have been killed by a Smash patch ever.
At best, you could argue that
Patch hysteria is way overblown
He doesn't actually get any back. He just gets a set 20% for every stock after the first. So even if he had 0% when he died, he'd get 20% on a new stock.So about Joker
Or maybe, just MAYBE, they are not touching him because he's relatively new and there's not enough of a reason to tone him down at the moment from their point of view? The first step towards making mistakes is taking rash decisions.
I'm of the camp that the most BS (gimmicky) comeback mechanic in the game that isn't rage (which is universal and not that bad when compared to Smash 4) is
's aura. get their movement or a few moves buffed, or a (few) new flashy powerful KO option, they all have a time limit (except ) and their moves aren't nearly as rewarding or polarizing as 's aura. when bringing up the worst designed characters in the game when it's clear that a character who gets rewarded to the degree that does for getting hit is very poorly designed. Not to mention that most of the time he can never even reach max aura because he's not even a heavyweight anymore like Smash 4. But when he does, you die at 40%.'s opponent for damaging him even worse than the other characters mentioned.Speaking of MU charts, some top players have made some recently that I haven't seen posted here (Not doing every one, just the notable ones). Found them here.
DabuzMaisterMKLeoMKLeoTPandarianRFangZaki, Peli
I’ll be honest, I think every single comeback mechanic in this game barring the toned down rage mechanic is absolute poorly designed BS. In other games the universal comeback mechanic comes in the form of getting more meter for taking hits vs. dishing out damage and facilitates a comeback via intelligent management of your resources. In Smash Bros. there is no universal meter mechanic outside of rage and the characters who have unique comeback mechanics have some really wacky and varied traits inherent in their system.I'm of the camp that the most BS (gimmicky) comeback mechanic in the game that isn't rage (which is universal and not that bad when compared to Smash 4) is
,, , and all get way more reward off their comeback mechanics than what you’ll see from pretty much any other fighting game character. The nature of Smash’s K.O system means that most of the time smash characters will be living longer than FG characters because they lack a health bar, and the absence of a corner makes the disadvantage state extremely unthreatening compared to other games. 
Maister's MU chart feels like a fever dream. That isn't the MU spread of a top 15, that's the MU spread of a top 5, especially when only two of those "slight disadvantage" MUs, arguably three, are ubiquitous in competitive play.Speaking of MU charts, some top players have made some recently that I haven't seen posted here (Not doing every one, just the notable ones). Found them here.
Edit: Maybe it's just me but some of these MU Charts have some questionable placements.
I mean, Aresene's time limit doesn't seem all that limiting. Though, Terry's not having a time limit or anything like that does irk me a bit.I'm of the camp that the most BS (gimmicky) comeback mechanic in the game that isn't rage (which is universal and not that bad when compared to Smash 4) is
Where
It's funny too. Nobody ever talks about
Is it more balanced than Smash 4? Yes, but it's still total BS and it punishes
Speaking of MU charts, some top players have made some recently that I haven't seen posted here (Not doing every one, just the notable ones). Found them here.
Edit: Maybe it's just me but some of these MU Charts have some questionable placements.
I only really lurk here as I don't know **** most of the time and use this as a thread to learn about stuff but didn't Peach outright bypass the shorthop damage reduction? Floating doesn't count as shorthopping so Peach could float close to the ground and use aerials without the reduction literally every other character has to deal with, she 'broke the rules' of the game so her aerials getting nerfed was very much justified in that regard. For her other nerfs, I got nothing
That's true, but it wasn't actually nerfed. Afaik none of the damage values on Peach's aerials were ever changed; she just got a decrease to her Fair kb, among other things.
Honest question: what game(s) are you referring to? I can't think of a single fighting game in which the player being hit gains more meter than the one doing the hitting.
True but still, the nerf was justified as had Peach followed the rules of the universal mechanic, her aerials wouldn't have been as good as they were prepatch.
Actually, that never got nerfed, so Peach still breaks the shorthop damage mechanic which is why her conversions often deal 60-80% on average.
The knockback got nerfed on her Fair and Bair specifically iirc. It was the same patch that nerfed Olimar's shield and Pichu too
Street Fighter generally has that as a rule, Guilty Gear gives a little more tension gain for taking a hit, and in Samurai Shodown the only way to get meter in the first place is to block or take damage. The meter gain concept as a whole facilitates comebacks.
is probably a Top 10 character, but didn't want to mention it due to it possibly being too controversial. This is a top 15/20 player we are dealing with here, so feeling as confident as he does about his character does make sense. Still, it's a bit crazy to think G&W loses less match-ups than , but then again, G&W gives even with more characters than Joker does, whereas Joker massacres half the cast (according to MKLeo anyway).'s placement given that /Razor Leaf is a thing and that Maister's track record against PTs isn't exactly stellar (lost to both Pandarian at MainStage and Leffen at Super Smash Con). You could also argue is a losing match-up, but MKLeo also believes that match-up is even as well. Aside from that, there's a few match-ups that I feel you could make a case for being even as well (particularly )., so him not losing a lot of match-ups makes sense when you look at it from that angle. That, and there is a bit of a theme with the characters that he does lose against to according to Maister (pretty much everyone in that group not named can outrange him, outmaneuver him, and bring the hurt on him on when they win neutral). Said theme does start to become less meaningful once you actually break down the nitty gritty of each match-up and think about how much there is to consider, but that's the general gist of it. steamrolls their character.
Seeing different MU charts shows how versatile and volatile this game is. A lot of it's subjective and two credible players can have very different takes on MUs. I do think some of these are overly optimistic.I'm of the camp that the most BS (gimmicky) comeback mechanic in the game that isn't rage (which is universal and not that bad when compared to Smash 4) is
Where
It's funny too. Nobody ever talks about
Is it more balanced than Smash 4? Yes, but it's still total BS and it punishes
Speaking of MU charts, some top players have made some recently that I haven't seen posted here (Not doing every one, just the notable ones). Found them here.
Edit: Maybe it's just me but some of these MU Charts have some questionable placements.
Of course MKLeo thinks Joker destroys half the cast. Sometimes pros are too good for their own good on stuff like this. It's not even necessarily a personal bias issue as it is their experience is vastly different from most people's.On the subject of Maister's match-up chart, he does think
That said, I do think Maister's match-up chart is mostly accurate. The only major blaring light to me is
G&W is very well-rounded in this game compared to his previous iterations, kind of like
Also good to see that everyone except Maister still thinks
I'm perfectly fine with a camping Joker. Most people aren't that good at camping with him anyways atm; it takes actual skill and strategy to make his camping deadly, adding skill to a character is always a good thing (nerfing it is always bad).
That doesn't stop him from being a good character, it just fixes the part of Joker that is honestly a bit over the top (and his meter is for a fact, a little too good for the amount of risk/investment for it).
Of that entire post, this is about the only thing I don’t agree with. Typically the balancing ideology you will see in most fighting games is that the characters who are considered to be higher tier have extremely high technical requirements. Usually. I agree that Joker and Peach on average are more technically demanding than Palutena and Lucina but from my experience with games like Guilty Gear and Tekken, which are known for their technical difficulty, the dexterity based requirements a character has at higher play is actually more of an absolute implementation that can be compared between multiple games as opposed to being localized within one game.
Greninja was the one character I excluded, and the only one I would've said "Maybe more time should've been used to look into this". There's no way to say whether Greninja was fine, given the 3DS meta was like a month and a half lol.
One reason why this happens for Smash in particular is because Nintendo doesn’t know how to balance the tiers the first go ‘round, and even at the end of a Smash game’s life the tier list is hella unbalanced. The gap between arguably the best and arguably the worst character in this game is insane compared to the other entrants at Evo right now. I don’t even know if Joker and Peach are obscenely good right now, it could just be that the people sitting in low tier are god awful and borderline unplayable in some aspects. As such, it seems Nintendo’s answer in the past has been to hand out the nerf hammer either within the game itself or as a transitional change. I really hope Nintendo keeps this trend of only slightly nerfing the stronger characters while giving some serious tuning to the guys lagging behind because that’s a better way of narrowing the gap in this game without taking away the good characters’ defining aspects.
