Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[blackghost]

this patch is just to fix bugs. like when terry busta wolfs an ice climber and the game freezes

 

[BitBitio]

Ouch. Maybe the devs will make the AC window slightly faster. I kinda doubt it though.

 

[ARISTOS]

Also as an aside Power Geyser is one of the dumbest moves in the game lol, **** is cray.

At ledge you just wait a second for invincibility to wear off and if they do anything that isn't ledge roll/ledge drop they die, and if they drop you're still at risk of getting GEYSER'd

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Since this is a pretty substantial glitch (I’ve heard unconfirmed reports it even bricks Switches) it probably required more than a typical .0.1 update would usually do. The other glitches usually are less common to occur or not as game breaking, soft locking the game just for playing it is pretty game breaking.

And the development cycle is probably already nearing completion of 7.0.0, I would not expect any changes due to any happenings over this week it’s way to short time to QA (so things like the soft lock don’t happen again lol).

 

[Lacrimosa]

We will see.
It just seems odd that we got a X.X.1 patch before and this one didn't include balance patches.
The X.1.X patches always were about re-balancing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Could be that they were still finalizing some balances, didn't have them ready for Terry's release, and decided "eh we'll get them out with w/e patch we have to do immediately after Terry's release".

 

[Bobert]

I hope they're not going to nerf Terry in the first week. Terry may seem wild right now, especially on plat stages, but it would be extremely odd for him to get the hammer before Snake or Joker this soon. I don't think they would do that as it seems illogical, but the balance team has done very questionable things in the past.

 

[SwagGuy99]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Huh...
I guess this is legit?

Curious if we will be getting any balance changes in this patch. Maybe some changes weren't finalized yet so they held back and decided to wait? Maybe it's just nerfs to Terry?

However, the other part of me thinks that it is more likely just a bug fix update with a few minor changes and a few stealth buffs/nerfs that won't affect very much in the long run.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's obviously just bugfixes, just odd that it's significant enough for them to officially break replays. Perhaps there is some broader but subtle (or more dangerous) technical issue we have missed while focusing on the ICs interaction.

 

[Lacrimosa]

It's obviously just bugfixes, just odd that it's significant enough for them to officially break replays. Perhaps there is some broader but subtle (or more dangerous) technical issue we have missed while focusing on the ICs interaction.

Why is that obvious?
It's not obvious at all when all the prior patches with a X.1.X did some roster balancing?
Time? Maybe, but it'S also possible that some changes have been unintentiontal (Puff?) or haven't been quite ready yet.

 

[BlackInk]

Seems too soon for a balance patch, and, really, naming patches is kind of arbitrary. Like, I really don't think it should be called V6, but I get it for simplicity sake.

In my opinion, no. Olimar, splatbomb, and GamingWatch’s up-b obviously need patches.

 

[Heracr055]

The designation of the 6.1.0 seems too significant to just be a bug fix (Buster Wolf+Icies glitch for example). Last time we had this designation was during 3.1.0 iirc, which was a significant balance patch.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

It's obviously just bugfixes, just odd that it's significant enough for them to officially break replays. Perhaps there is some broader but subtle (or more dangerous) technical issue we have missed while focusing on the ICs interaction.

I think your right, for those who aren’t aware (because I only found this out a few months ago) Replays aren’t literal replays but rather just a simulation with two CPUs of what happened in the match you saved. The reason replays become incompatible with newer versions is when something is changed in the character/stage/etc parameters from the current version. If even only one characters Jab is changed to do 1% more in a version update the current version would crash trying to simulate this illogical. With that said, a glitch fix that affected in game matches you can save replays of would definitely fall in this category over minor bug fixes that don’t affect the character parameters or modes you can save replays on.

 

[blackghost]

if Nintendo week one nerfs terry thats a bad route and precedence to set. although smash ultimate has established if you whine enough they will kill characters.

 

[AxelVDP]

if Nintendo week one nerfs terry thats a bad route and precedence to set. although smash ultimate has established if you whine enough they will kill characters.

No characters were ever killed in a smash ultimate patch. Only "kills" happened in the transition from 4 to Ultimate.
If anything, they have showed that they do not listen to outcries (most nerfs are minimal and every change is done with caution, for better or worse)

 

[SwagGuy99]

if Nintendo week one nerfs terry thats a bad route and precedence to set. although smash ultimate has established if you whine enough they will kill characters.

The thing about that is that people really haven't whined about Terry yet (at least not the competitive players, I have heard more casual players complaining).

However, the fact that the patch is coming out so soon after Terry's release is leading me to believe that Terry may very well have a few of his moves nerfed to remove some of his kill confirms.

 

[Bobert]

if Nintendo week one nerfs terry thats a bad route and precedence to set. although smash ultimate has established if you whine enough they will kill characters.

I dont think they've killed characters due to outcry, but they have nerfed bottom 10 characters right after buffing them like Mii Brawler and Mac for no apparent reason.

 

[ARISTOS]

No characters were ever killed in a smash ultimate patch. Only "kills" happened in the transition from 4 to Ultimate.
If anything, they have showed that they do not listen to outcries (most nerfs are minimal and every change is done with caution, for better or worse)

Barely any characters have been killed by a Smash patch ever.

At best, you could argue that were significantly altered but the later two were degenerate af prior to their patching. And all three still remained solid.

Patch hysteria is way overblown

 

[Arthur97]

The main problem with it being a balance patch is, it's been, what, a week since the last balance patch? Why not just roll them out with the patch they just released? No, it makes more sense to be a bug fix.

 

[BlackInk]

The main problem with it being a balance patch is, it's been, what, a week since the last balance patch? Why not just roll them out with the patch they just released? No, it makes more sense to be a bug fix.

Because Ultimate has over 70 characters and they put dlc releases above patches.

 

[NotLiquid]

The main problem with it being a balance patch is, it's been, what, a week since the last balance patch? Why not just roll them out with the patch they just released? No, it makes more sense to be a bug fix.

The current patch we have has likely been complete for a while now. A lot of these patches need to pass certification and other miscellaneous checks. If it's a hotfix, it's usually expedited, but as Nintendo had a very targeted release date so as not to overlap their current slate (i.e the week between Luigi's Mansion 3 and Pokémon SwSh), it's safe to say Terry had been completed since the earlier half of October back when they recorded the presentation, and that they had to sit on him for a while. They can't just casually decide that whatever 6.1.0. contains would be slotted into the current patch, once the software is out of the hands of the programmers, then the show must go on.

This patch coming out so soon after the last one suggests that whatever changes it may have could predominantly be stuff they hadn't implemented yet or needed more time in the oven before they put it out there. This is all assuming of course it's something more than just a hotfix like the numbering convention implies, but any balance changes we might get from this patch are most likely things that were not done in reaction to anything players have discovered.

 

[Thinkaman]

A lot of comments here (and elsewhere) are... well, they show a lack of understanding of software development, game development, and uh... Bayesian inference? Occam's Razor? Common sense? Look, I'm trying to be nice here, I promise!

Every prior we have, across the last five years, says that Namco works very slowly on conservative balance changes, which are pushed out when (and pretty much only when) there is also new content. We also know that there is a lengthy latency for localization + cert + distribution, especially for new features and balance changes due to the significant multi-lingual documentation they require.

Consider the cognative hoops one has to jump through to believe Namco is releasing a knee jerk balance patch:

• It contradicts past priors that Namco would make any balance changes, of any kind, so quickly.
• It contradicts past priors that Namco would want to distribute any balance changes not alongside a new feature.
• It contradicts past priors that Namco gives any weight to Day 1 knee jerk reactions. (Especially since no one is actually upset about Terry...?)
• It contradicts past priors that Namco has to obey the same temporal constraints of our universe and international distribution as everyone else.

On the other hand, it is 100% consistent and easy to believe that "Namco is urgently patching some bugs that freeze the game, corrupt saves, or damage hardware, and in this instance replays are breaking."

The only way I could construct a scenario, however unlikely, that we see any balance changes is this: There was a source control mistake such that something got incorrectly included/excluded, and have decided to correct it while fixing replay-breaking urgent critical issues anyway. However, this is super suspect--who branches superficial extra changes into your critical hotfix for the hell of it?

I dont think they've killed characters due to outcry, but they have nerfed bottom 10 characters right after buffing them like Mii Brawler and Mac for no apparent reason.

Mii Brawler's fastfall change was clearly a mistake--no one is reverting Brawler changes because he's too good or too popular. It was also very unclear if that change made him better or worse.

As for Mac, they removed an (psuedo-)infinite. Like, c'mon, lol. They also removed infinites from mediocre characters in Smash 4. I'm all about Mac getting improved, but an infinite based on obnoxious well-timed jab inputs that didn't even address any of his actual problems is not at all how to go about it.[/LIST]

 

[blackghost]

No characters were ever killed in a smash ultimate patch. Only "kills" happened in the transition from 4 to Ultimate.
If anything, they have showed that they do not listen to outcries (most nerfs are minimal and every change is done with caution, for better or worse)

look at my profile picture again and that should tell you what my thoughts are on the matter.

In all of smash patches in ultimate, the only one that has been significant imo has been this new change to puff. But the character in most danger due to twitter and less skilled players outcry is joker. there is a shift happening in twitch chats, online, and among lower level players: joker is OP. that the new thing happening. Wit several players dropping their (ironically multiple pT players) mains for joker i can see it coming. Unlike smash 4 Nintendo has already announced another 12 months of support for the game and ultimate is clicking on the competitive side. Nintendo is new to running a game featured this prominently in competitive play they may overreact as they did pre-launch.

 

[J0eyboi]

We will see.
It just seems odd that we got a X.X.1 patch before and this one didn't include balance patches.
The X.1.X patches always were about re-balancing.

Patch 1.2.0, the first major patch (1.1 was day 1) only fixed bugs. They haven't done that again since, but then, there were never nearly as pressing of bugs to fix as "Olimar gets stuck to Corrin's foot and becomes unable to do anything" or "Terry vs ICs is bricking people's switches." That sort of game-breaking bug is very important to fix.

 

[Lacrimosa]

A lot of comments here (and elsewhere) are... well, they show a lack of understanding of software development, game development, and uh... Bayesian inference? Occam's Razor? Common sense? Look, I'm trying to be nice here, I promise!

Every prior we have, across the last five years, says that Namco works very slowly on conservative balance changes, which are pushed out when (and pretty much only when) there is also new content. We also know that there is a lengthy latency for localization + cert + distribution, especially for new features and balance changes due to the significant multi-lingual documentation they require.

Consider the cognative hoops one has to jump through to believe Namco is releasing a knee jerk balance patch:

• It contradicts past priors that Namco would make any balance changes, of any kind, so quickly.
• It contradicts past priors that Namco would want to distribute any balance changes not alongside a new feature.
• It contradicts past priors that Namco gives any weight to Day 1 knee jerk reactions. (Especially since no one is actually upset about Terry...?)
• It contradicts past priors that Namco has to obey the same temporal constraints of our universe and international distribution as everyone else.

On the other hand, it is 100% consistent and easy to believe that "Namco is urgently patching some bugs that freeze the game, corrupt saves, or damage hardware, and in this instance replays are breaking."

The only way I could construct a scenario, however unlikely, that we see any balance changes is this: There was a source control mistake such that something got incorrectly included/excluded, and have decided to correct it while fixing replay-breaking urgent critical issues anyway. However, this is super suspect--who branches superficial extra changes into your critical hotfix for the hell of it?



Mii Brawler's fastfall change was clearly a mistake--no one is reverting Brawler changes because he's too good or too popular. It was also very unclear if that change made him better or worse.

As for Mac, they removed an (psuedo-)infinite. Like, c'mon, lol. They also removed infinites from mediocre characters in Smash 4. I'm all about Mac getting improved, but an infinite based on obnoxious well-timed jab inputs that didn't even address any of his actual problems is not at all how to go about it.[/LIST]

Look, I know we disagree but everything about balance patches is based off one thing alone.
It's still very, very unlikely we get anything major besides the glitch fixes but it's still intriguing.

Don't know how you can jump to the conclusion of some users having a lack of understanding. That's just not good...

 

[PK Gaming]

Guess i'll be the first one to say that Robin's buffs don't do enough to help him out of being aggressively mediocre in the current metagame.

1) Faster charge speed is great conceptually, but it's mitigated by the fact that Thunder spells aren't that good in this game. The nerf to shield pressure in the projectile patch significantly hurt Elthunder, and while Arcthunder is "pretty good" now, it's still a limited use spell. Thoron's still a meme.

2) Faster Nair is absolutely appreciated, especially with Levin Sword. The comments about it being great OoS are still premature though; the moves hits high then low and doesn't quickly cover both sides like say, a Lucina/Chrom/etc Nair does, limiting its use.

3) The Arc Fire change is good. It's still mostly useful for ledgetrapping, and it can harass off stage opponents better (though if you actually want to kill them, run off Nair is better). The best additional way to use this move imo is when coming back on-stage, or attacking someone from a platform.

Robin's critical weaknesses (garbage mobility, weakness to pressure, limited resources and garbage disadvantage state) still prevent the character from being good in the current meta.

Robin specialists have an easier time I guess

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Anotheheory is t

A lot of comments here (and elsewhere) are... well, they show a lack of understanding of software development, game development, and uh... Bayesian inference? Occam's Razor? Common sense? Look, I'm trying to be nice here, I promise!

Every prior we have, across the last five years, says that Namco works very slowly on conservative balance changes, which are pushed out when (and pretty much only when) there is also new content. We also know that there is a lengthy latency for localization + cert + distribution, especially for new features and balance changes due to the significant multi-lingual documentation they require.

Consider the cognative hoops one has to jump through to believe Namco is releasing a knee jerk balance patch:

• It contradicts past priors that Namco would make any balance changes, of any kind, so quickly.
• It contradicts past priors that Namco would want to distribute any balance changes not alongside a new feature.
• It contradicts past priors that Namco gives any weight to Day 1 knee jerk reactions. (Especially since no one is actually upset about Terry...?)
• It contradicts past priors that Namco has to obey the same temporal constraints of our universe and international distribution as everyone else.

On the other hand, it is 100% consistent and easy to believe that "Namco is urgently patching some bugs that freeze the game, corrupt saves, or damage hardware, and in this instance replays are breaking."

The only way I could construct a scenario, however unlikely, that we see any balance changes is this: There was a source control mistake such that something got incorrectly included/excluded, and have decided to correct it while fixing replay-breaking urgent critical issues anyway. However, this is super suspect--who branches superficial extra changes into your critical hotfix for the hell of it?



Mii Brawler's fastfall change was clearly a mistake--no one is reverting Brawler changes because he's too good or too popular. It was also very unclear if that change made him better or worse.

As for Mac, they removed an (psuedo-)infinite. Like, c'mon, lol. They also removed infinites from mediocre characters in Smash 4. I'm all about Mac getting improved, but an infinite based on obnoxious well-timed jab inputs that didn't even address any of his actual problems is not at all how to go about it.[/LIST]

Then again. What could of possibly be the cuase for a kneejerk reactiom from the time Terry and the 6.0.0 Patch realesed?

The biggest things that happened was Terry winning a unranked PGR Tournament and Palutena winning a B-Tier?


I mean it was also two months since the last major patch rolled out which is a not longer than the average. I think they had the time to include all the balance changes they wanted and thought was required in 6.0.0

 

[PK Gaming]

The last patch was way too light on changes given how much time passed between that one and the last one.

I think 6.1.0 will be more comprehensive

Actually scratch that; I hope it will be more comprehensive. I really want to see some heads roll

 

[Kokiden]

look at my profile picture again and that should tell you what my thoughts are on the matter.

In all of smash patches in ultimate, the only one that has been significant imo has been this new change to puff. But the character in most danger due to twitter and less skilled players outcry is joker. there is a shift happening in twitch chats, online, and among lower level players: joker is OP. that the new thing happening. Wit several players dropping their (ironically multiple pT players) mains for joker i can see it coming. Unlike smash 4 Nintendo has already announced another 12 months of support for the game and ultimate is clicking on the competitive side. Nintendo is new to running a game featured this prominently in competitive play they may overreact as they did pre-launch.

It would be beyond disappointing if they nerf Joker because people keep whining. Everything he does is "broken" or "OP."

I've only seen ONE person doing extremely well with him, yet for some reason there is a consensus that he's "broken." It makes me wonder if people even know what that word means, or if they just like throwing that word out there randomly because everyone else is doing that too?

 

[Thinkaman]

It's fun to imagine what extremely-unlikely special feature it could be. What would HAVE to be THIS week? New Gen 8 Pokemon content, like Pokeball Pokemon? But for some reason Terry still HAD to come out last week? It's hard to construct.

Then again. What could of possibly be the cuase for a kneejerk reactiom from the time Terry and the 6.0.0 Patch realesed?

The biggest things that happened was Terry winning a unranked PGR Tournament and Palutena winning a B-Tier?

Agreed. The idea that Namco is going to be a sleeping giant for the entire last 5 years only to wake up pissed because Riddles won a random non-PGR event across the ocean, that THAT is what's going to light a fire under them to summon armeggedon to the game, is...............

Don't know how you can jump to the conclusion of some users having a lack of understanding. That's just not good...

I'm not sure what you mean. Of course I think people don't understand--they are saying things that openly reveal this!

 

[Bobert]

Mii Brawler's fastfall change was clearly a mistake--no one is reverting Brawler changes because he's too good or too popular. It was also very unclear if that change made him better or worse.

As for Mac, they removed an (psuedo-)infinite. Like, c'mon, lol. They also removed infinites from mediocre characters in Smash 4. I'm all about Mac getting improved, but an infinite based on obnoxious well-timed jab inputs that didn't even address any of his actual problems is not at all how to go about it.[/LIST]

I'll give it to you that it was likely an accident, but Mii Brawler had vastly superior combo potential with the change though and actually had a good sh auto cancel aerial to use in neutral. I picked up the character again for a while just for that change.

In Little Mac's case, I don't really see how it was an infinite? It stopped working at higher %'s and could maybe be combo into itself up to three times usually for they fell out or you ended up at the edge of the stage. It wasn't really much different from Palutena nair combos honestly. If I somehow missed something and it was really that busted, they could have tweaked it instead of removing it entirely. I also think it did address his issue of lacking a decent combo starter up close.

I don't think the balance team is intent on fixing "actual problems" with some characters, like Mac's recovery and air game, because they seem to view them as a core part of the character. Otherwise Ganondorf would have a reflector or a viable recovery after two games and dozens of patches. I'm not trying to diss on the balance team or anything either. They've given us great changes like the Ken, Diddy, and Falcon buffs , as well as the projectile patch. I just don't think they view some of these character problems, such as Ganondorf's abysmal recovery, in the same light that we do.

 

[Rizen]

^An easy fix for would be to not have sideB freefall. Why does get to use his for recovery but not Ganon?

Ganon's probably the worst super heavy after the buffs on K.Rool and Roar. He's still scary to play against because his hitboxes are huge, especially on smashes and he gets high rewards for landing them. You can't sleep on anyone. If Ganon's a low tier, and he is, I'm happy with the game's balance.

 

[Bobert]

^An easy fix for would be to not have sideB freefall. Why does get to use his for recovery but not Ganon?

In a way, Ganondorf is a heavier, stronger, and faster Incineroar with massively disjointed hitboxes on his smashes and an entire aerial kit consisting of huge kill moves. I think they're afraid of something like that having a decent recovery being extremely broken in casual play.

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

Didn’t the other .1 (3.1) patch have some substantial changes? Including nerfing .

 

[The_Bookworm]

Didn’t the other .1 (3.1) patch have some substantial changes? Including nerfing .

Pichu did get notably nerfed in 3.1.0, although most Pichu players (plus myself) would say that his drop in prominence is mostly metagame advancements, as it was dropping in the metagame prior to the nerfs. Patch 3.1.0 simply accelerated the process.

Considering that Olimar was considered an undisputed top 3 character before the nerfs, I guess he gets special mention.

Outside of that, no other character got substantially nerfed. Some top tiers like Wolf, Snake, and Peach did get nerfed at one point, but it didn't really affect their placement in the tier list (at least from the nerfs alone).

Now if anyone is going to be substantially nerfed (or changed in general) in 6.1.0 is unknown, and we will never get the answer until the patch notes come at update day.

 

[BlackInk]

Pichu did get notably nerfed in 3.1.0, although most Pichu players (plus myself) would say that his drop in prominence is mostly metagame advancements, as it was dropping in the metagame prior to the nerfs. Patch 3.1.0 simply accelerated the process.

Considering that Olimar was considered an undisputed top 3 character before the nerfs, I guess he gets special mention.

Outside of that, no other character got substantially nerfed. Some top tiers like Wolf, Snake, and Peach did get nerfed at one point, but it didn't really affect their placement in the tier list (at least from the nerfs alone).

Now if anyone is going to be substantially nerfed (or changed in general) in 6.1.0 is unknown, and we will never get the answer until the patch notes come at update day.

The fact they announce the patch notes means they must’ve changed something big.

 

[Arthur97]

Must is a bit strong. I still find it unlikely that this is anything major. As has been stated, they are really slow when it comes to balance patches. I doubt we're getting two so close together.

 

[BlackInk]

Must is a bit strong. I still find it unlikely that this is anything major. As has been stated, they are really slow when it comes to balance patches. I doubt we're getting two so close together.

Did you consider that 6.0 had some stuff that couldn’t make it so they had to delay a portion of it?

 

[Megamang]

Maybe they were toying with some buffs for everyone, decided the ones we got were good enough to release, and wanted to finish buffing other lower tiered characters before they dropped the new patch? That would be ideal for me.


Joker isn't dominating the meta, no, but the way Leo uses him does start to make him seem overtuned. Without Arsene he still has amazing confirms, including off of fair 1 (which confirms when falling backwards, which isn't common in this game and means he doesn't have to commit nearly as hard when spacing fair...)…

Watching Leo play him reminds me of melee fox. He just seems to have more options, and if that is the case he will slowly drift away from the cast in power level.

Really the thing that stands out to me is SH guns being an amazing zoning tool, that stuns you, when few (no?) characters get the privilege of a harassment tool that powerful when their neutral/advantage is still damn scary without it. It can't be deflected, and you don't gain any meaningful frame advantage from parrying it and maaaaybe gain a ft of stage control... which joker doesn't really care about too much. It isn't ideal to be cornered, but if you get an opening and have your confirms down he will get you across the stage into the corner at low percent and at high percent you'll be launched to the same corner. I mean the harassment tool on, say, Greninja or ZSS, would lend itself to a powerful camping/timeout character that you *must* approach.. on a character that does fine when aggressing. This is all on paper and you have to be pretty amazing to look like Leo, no one does yet, but Tweek joker seems closer to optimal to me. His playstyle is more 'deal with joker' than 'I'm going to run you down and outplay you in scramble situations'.

That is fine, sure... but then downwards guns just ravages you offstage? Lots of lesser characters get absolutely washed by this, well all saw what it can do to pacman. Again, this is free for joker and can easily steal your stock with literally zero risk to joker. All he lost was maybe opportunity cost for not just going down to get you, something he accels at anyways, and if he plays it right he is in a ledgetrap scenario anyways after having a reasonable attempt at your life with the guns and almost certain chip damage. IDK, I just compare it to say paralyzer or water shuriken and it is just is much much harder to avoid without putting yourself in a bad situation.

Joker with worse guns would be just as fine, if not much better, for spectators... so im not here saying tone down the stuff that makes him unique and interesting to watch, more like tone down the 'ugh i have to approach joker any no matter what he's gonna get chip damage with guns, which isn't only damage but is disruptive'. Optimizing joker where he just gets chip damage from guns would be a cool task, but when the guns just knock you out of whatever you are doing it can be a bit frustrating.

Oh yea then you get the first kill, he comes back and kills you, even game.. but you're worse off than you were before, because he has enough extra meter on all his non-first stocks to probably get arsene twice.

 

[BlackInk]

, well all saw what it can do to pacman. Again, this is free for joker and can easily steal your stock with literally zero risk to joker.

**** no. Pacman’s recovery is absolutely bull****. The gun only gimped it because it messed up the up-b. Joker didn’t get the gimp for free at all.