Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Burst used both and . He told me himself

Can you remind me again on how to solve the invisible Terry icon again? You said something like clearing the "cache" of my browser (I use Chrome).
What do you mean by that?

Disagree. F-Throw is nontrivial but much smaller than he other changes.

It's not even about drill rest. SHAC dair is amazing and very safe. People aren't used to using it because it's a completely new tool.

Pound DOES link to point-blank fair and nair now at a reasonable low-mid % window against the entire cast--fully true with no DI, so you have a few spare frames to counter DI with puff movement. And point blank fair at this percent window combos into nair on the floatier fourth of the roster.

This used to be trivia--how often dies puff land point blank fair, on this characters, at that percent range? But now her favorite callout tool just sets it entirely up, ez. And boy, that is a SCARY three piece combo; it WILL put you off stage, often deep, and with puff still in your face. And the only real DI counterplay is holding out, which is... The last place you'd otherwise want to be in this situation.

Go mess around with new puff against random training mode opponents set to 35%. Get used to the new magic, and then try incorporating it into her gameplay.

It ultimately comes down to time to see where the buffed Puff ends up being.
Puff players getting some more success off the gate is not too surprising, especially considering that not that many players have much matchup experience with the character pre- or post- patch, but it is not yet anything relevant.
However, whether Puff will dwindle down when people learn how to fight the character, or spread out to obtain both consistent and relevant results, is yet to be determined.

 

[Zinith]

Can you remind me again on how to solve the invisible Terry icon again? You said something like clearing the "cache" of my browser (I use Chrome).
What do you mean by that?

You use Chrome? That's easy. You see the three dots on the right just above the scroll? Click on it and then choose "Settings." Scroll all the way down until you see "Advanced" and then more options will pop up when you click on it. Under "Privacy and security" click on "clear browsing data" and you should see three options. The bottom one is the "cache"

 

[J0eyboi]

It's not even about drill rest. SHAC dair is amazing and very safe. People aren't used to using it because it's a completely new tool.

I'll give you safe, it's like -12? and you can drift away to make it harder to punish. A safe option like that does seem nice for Puff to have, especially because Pound exists. I just don't see it being all that useful when landing it requires your opponent to be so close to you. You basically have to throw yourself at them to have a chance of it hitting anything, and the fact that it trades terribly certainly doesn't help. There's also the issue that Dair is horrible and inconsistent, and it's hard to reliably follow up on SHAC dair because it never sends in the direction you want it to (this may be a me problem.)

Idk, maybe you're right. It's hard to judge because I don't think I've seen SHAC Dair used in a high-level match a single time since the patch.

Re: everything else you said, I didn't know that was a thing and you're probably right about that being useful.

I don't have the vods (because I haven't seen them yet) but H-Box placed 13th at GENESIS BLACK with , a pretty big improvement over his placements with her pre-patch.

I saw, and I don't think the buffs had much to do with it. I watched his set vs Ketchup (as far as I can tell it was the only one that was on stream) and he used Fthrow twice, used Rollout several times but only successfully landed it once, and attempted drill rest once, but it didn't actually work because Dair is horrible and inconsistent. I don't think he comboed off of Pound at all, he didn't use SHAC Dair at all, and he probably airdodged a few times but I wasn't counting. The point is that most of his gameplay wasn't affected by the buffs at all, and he was actually hurt by them in some ways, in that he kept trying to use Rollout and getting punished for it because it's still awful.

Also, you say that doesn't have that much trouble killing. I'd say more that has some decent kill moves (F-smash, aerials, down-smash), but landing them consistently is a bit of an issue at times. Or that's what I would have said before 6.0.

Having consistent kill confirms can go a long way on a character, even if that character has a semi-decent kill options to begin with ().

Even if the first part of what you said was true (I'm not willing to argue that it isn't, but know that I'm unconvinced), Drill Rest is not a consistent kill confirm, let alone anywhere near the level of S4 DK/Bowser Uthrow Uair. It's situational at best, and even then it doesn't work sometimes because Dair is horrible and inconsistent.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Regardless of how much better these buffs have made Jigglypuff or what tier she is now
I think its safe to say 6.0.0 she is best she has been in any iteration of Smash since Melee and I think many longtime Puff mains are happy just for that.

 

[J0eyboi]

Regardless of how much better these buffs have made Jigglypuff or what tier she is now
I think its safe to say 6.0.0 she is better than she has been in any Smash game since Melee and I think many longtime Puff mains are happy just for that.

You're not technically wrong, but that was true before the most recent patch, and arguably before she got buffed the first time.

Neither Brawl nor S4 puff is a high bar to clear.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Regardless of how much better these buffs have made Jigglypuff or what tier she is now
I think its safe to say 6.0.0 she is best she has been in any iteration of Smash since Melee and I think many longtime Puff mains are happy just for that.

I would argue that 64 Puff is currently in a better state than Ultimate Puff, especially considering that one of the best 64 players, wangera, solo mains the character, and there being other notable Puff players as well.

However, she is indeed now miles better than her horrible Brawl and especially SSB4 iterations.

 

[ZephyrZ]

There's also the issue that Dair is horrible and inconsistent, and it's hard to reliably follow up on SHAC dair because it never sends in the direction you want it to (this may be a me problem.)

I just tried it out assuming it'd be like Squirtle Dair, and I was right. There's a method to it.

If the target is on the right of Jigglypuff, they final hit will send them towards the right. If they're on the left, they'll get sent left. You can adjust Jigglypuff's positioning through your drift, but you have to be careful not to drift too far away.

I can't speak for Jigglypuff's viability as a whole but combos out of Dair at least should be relatively consistent in the hands of a skilled player.

 

[Impax]

Not shocked by riddles winning the tournament. Also blacktwins used Mario to beat stas

 

[TennisBall]

Who does Riddles use again? He seems to drop and pick up characters left and right.

 

[NotLiquid]

Who does Riddles use again? He seems to drop and pick up characters left and right.

He was a Richter / Ken dual main until he dropped the former after Shine 2019 in favor of Joker. No idea if the Terry pick is gonna stick, but it's interesting how a lot of shoto players seem to be gravitating towards him given he doesn't play anything like them.

(Well, I guess you could argue that in concept he's a more faithful transition of the idea than the actual shotos themselves are)

 

[BitBitio]

Hey, I know that 's buffs have been seen as relatively minor to moderate in this thread, but I want to talk about his changes and what they mean for a second.

Jab: 3 frame startup --> Jab: 2 frame startup
This is probably his smallest change, but it's definitely important and the boi will take what he can get. The reduction in startup is good because before, the move had pretty much no niche, being utterly outclassed by Kirby's tilts by leaps and bounds. Now, however, he has a really, really quick attack that comes out just fast enough to beat out a slew of quick moves others have. The fastest attacks of many characters is frame 2 or 3, meaning Kirby can beat out or tie that many more characters in up-close boxing. The move also is better for jab locks, covering tech options, calling out approaches, ledgetrapping, and also grants Kirby a guaranteed followup from dair and several more characters. The move is less committal since its total duration was reduced as well, and is better OOS as well. I think the devs could have taken it even further and made it frame 1, especially since the move isn't exactly the ideal jab even now. It's still situational and generally outclassed by his tilts, but his fastest move is even faster now and I like it.

Up smash: Sourspot hitbox is stronger
Okay, this one is pretty helpful. For those that didn't know, Kirby's up smash has a sourspot at the tip of the foot, reducing the effectiveness it has as an anti-air. However, this hitbox was buffed to the point of being just barely weaker than the sweetspot and this means the move has three main new benefits: 1) Out of shield, even if Kirby has slid back slightly, he can still punish pretty much the same as with the sweetspot with this move. 2) The move is a better anti-air than before, hitting with the sweetspot's characteristic power more consistently. 3) More safety when spaced. Hitting with the tip does more shieldstun than before, aiding Kirby's OOS game further. I wish that they just removed the sourspot and made the move consistent, but they are practically the same power anyway now, so whatever.

Nair: 10 frame startup --> Nair: 8 frame startup
This one and all buffs from here on out are big. Like, really big. The buffs to this move help Kirby out in so many ways, I can't even believe that they were that close to being legitimately amazing before. They didn't seem like it. For Kirby, an aerial startup faster than 10 outside of bair is gigantic. He can pressure more quickly and safely, followup fthrow on low platforms, break combos, edgeguard more safely, and act out of shield faster. This works together well with his other buff to nair.
Nair: Stronger KBG on the early hit
With this buff, Kirby's nair, starting at roughly 100%, is stronger than Kirby's bair. The move kills well now and allows Kirby not to have to RAR every time he wants reliably strong KB on an aerial approach. Since it's his nair, however, he can still RAR and force the opponent to try to predict which aerial Kirby is gonna use. The move is great for edgeguarding as well now, and works in tandem with his other buff, letting him hit both faster AND harder. The move went from a semi-reliable combo starter and rare KO to a completely viable tool and one of the better nairs in the game.

Up air: 10 frame startup --> Up air: 8 frame startup
This is a big one too. If you've ever seen a Kirby in bracket, you probably know that they like to go for utilt-up air a lot and don't get it super consistently. However, now this a true combo for not only more percents but can even KO confirm. On top of this, it is better in a lot of the same ways as nair, being better for OOS, juggling, followup fthrow on low platforms, break combos, and so on.
Up air: Stronger KBG
This buff is in contention for the most important one he received: Opponents have to respect Kirby's air space more now. Before, it was common practice to ledge jump to avoid Kirby since he had to go for a committal jump-double jump-bair read to punish them. Now, a full hop up air can kill and Kirby doesn't have to read the opponent as hard to do it. The up smash buff combined with this means that opponents have to play it safer around the boi. Also, it lets him punish out of shield more, net kills from juggles, RAR even more threateningly, and kill confirm on certain characters from utilt. This to me and all Kirby mains is huge.

Inhale: 14 frame startup --> Inhale: 10 frame startup
This move has made quite the turnaround, going for arguably his worst special in Brawl to undoubtedly his best. He can true combo into it so much more easily, counter platform camping more safely, and best of all, the move can be thrown out in neutral about twice as much: it has the same speed and better range than fair (which by the way, is an absolute staple of Kirby's neutral and advantage state) with its main issue in comparison being that it is more committal and more punishable on whiff, but that won't stop me. An that's not even the best part.
Inhale: Copy Ability Loss RNG reduced from Damage Received/70*100% --> Damage Received/70*70%
This is amazing. Kirby doesn't lose his ability when somebody sneezes now. The multiplier has been reduced to the point that the damage received IS your chance of losing the ability. This means that if a move does 10%, he won't have a 20% chance of loss (as seen in Version 1.0.0 of Ultimate) and will now have a 10% chance of loss like, you know, what a reasonable person might assume.
Copy Ability Grace Period: 10 seconds long —> 20 seconds long
Another big one, Kirby can’t lose his ability after getting it for twice as long now. Overall, these buffs make it way easier to get abilities and way harder to lose them.

As a whole, me and all Kirby players are very happy with these changes. Most of us think that if we show the world what he can do, he might be able to escape bottom and even low tier with these buffs alone. MikeKirby and others have shown newfound interest in playing him and it looks to be a brighter future for our boi, .

Edit: Lol. I didn’t realize someone already made a post just like this on this thread, but more in depth and better written. Whatever.

 

[Thinkaman]

A safe option like that does seem nice for Puff to have, especially because Pound exists.

This is the main dynamic in play. It's okay if dair loses trades (loses to actions with commitment), and it's okay if the baseline reward is low. We just need the opponent to need to do things (anything!) so we can Pound something other than a shield. Big money, no whammies.

Drill rest is too vulnerable to DI/SDI to be a panacea; Puff doesn't have time to react, and a whiffed Rest is usually death. But it's too valuable to ignore, and also has the benefit of terrifying the opponent. It monopolizes part of their focus, and creates a really strong panic instinct to shield--like some sort of inverse wobbling. Jiggs ff dair to grab is better than ever as a result, and Jiggs has noteable grab reward.

Pound's increased safety on shield is going to be a nothing-burger if you got your hopes up for actual safety of any sort. It doesn't change any of the calculus: a losing Pound is still a losing Pound. All it does is ensure that people have to punish you with "standard OoS options", and don't get to pull out heavy artillery like beefy u-smashes or fairs. (It should evade tethers though, which is nice.)

Also, I didn't remark on it, but 0% Pound to nair is now very safe and reliable across the cast, spacing provided. Worth noting.

Finally, a comment on Pound -> Rest. This can be screwed by away DI and requires an armpit hit of Pound to begin with, which is rare. It's there, and it's true, and it is very very scary to lighter characters. But like with drill rest it can be tempting to focus too much on the less realistic best-case rather than the baseline shift affecting both player's choices and behaviors. I think the realistic strength lies in those realiable Pound -> fair -> fair/nair -> offstage-tango sequences.


Edit:
I do think this newfound investment of power into Rest and Pound sequences is a polarized set of advantages. Ultimate Jigglypuff looks increasingly to be an anti-floaty floaty.

To an extent, this was always true? But man, all of this stuff is the bee's knees against Peach, and less relevant against say Joker.

Joker I'd guess as her worst matchup, Joker or Lucina. Joker is slender (hard to Rest), slippery (hard to Pound), and Jiggs surely hates his bair with the fury of a thousand suns. He also has that blasted +90% fast fall, one of the best anti-juggle tools in the game. It's not all bad at least: Mr. Arsene *hates* dying early, and Puff is probably one of the best characters to stall Arsene (at least partially) with. It's probably a bit like Brawl MK, where Puff just has to go big or go home.

Not sure how her outlier parameters affect Palu's nonsense, if at all. Wolf is probably a big meh. PT is a weird mix of things she hates and doesn't care about.

 

[ARISTOS]

Here's the VOD from the Amuka Smash Cup: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/506488872

Looking at the video and my own impressions:

1. From the video, Terry dash attack is Wario dash attack with no sourspot lmao

2. Most of Terry's game seems to be played at the ledge, either with him getting trapped there or his opponent there. His crazy burst options all have insane corner carry (unlike Ryu/Ken) and once you're at the ledge you are at his mercy for reasons stated elsewhere. Jumping would normally be good against a character with such poor air movement but nair/uair hitting you is an easy 30% at low-mid percents and his incredibly privileged back-dash means he can kinda just move around in range and wait to poke.

3. Rather than a comeback character, I see Terry more with a snowballing effect - when he's losing, I think the character finds it hard to get back into the game, and his poor airspeed and lack of options when in a juggle state means he can't really reset situations at all well. But when he's winning and characters have to jump/move towards him, he pretty much gets to use his privileged buttons with impunity, and every mistake is 30%. OK! adds to that threat but even at base he makes being at a loss really hard.

On v. Joker definitely gets to run stuff offstage, but on it I don't think it's quite as bad as MKLeo pointed out - Joker loves to stay at that midrange where he can use "fake" pressure, into causing you to whiff a button where he can then punish you for it. Terry gets to no-sell him with the burst moves. Additionally, Terry onstage should be better at dealing with Arsene than others - Joker then has move towards Terry, which is dangerous, and every hit Terry does takes a huge chunk of Arsene's meter off of super safe pokes. Attacking Terry is risky, but not doing so wastes Arsene

 

[Emblem Lord]

Terry does not get ledge trapped. Just give it time.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

This is the main dynamic in play. It's okay if dair loses trades (loses to actions with commitment), and it's okay if the baseline reward is low. We just need the opponent to need to do things (anything!) so we can Pound something other than a shield. Big money, no whammies.

Drill rest is too vulnerable to DI/SDI to be a panacea; Puff doesn't have time to react, and a whiffed Rest is usually death. But it's too valuable to ignore, and also has the benefit of terrifying the opponent. It monopolizes part of their focus, and creates a really strong panic instinct to shield--like some sort of inverse wobbling. Jiggs ff dair to grab is better than ever as a result, and Jiggs has noteable grab reward.

Pound's increased safety on shield is going to be a nothing-burger if you got your hopes up for actual safety of any sort. It doesn't change any of the calculus: a losing Pound is still a losing Pound. All it does is ensure that people have to punish you with "standard OoS options", and don't get to pull out heavy artillery like beefy u-smashes or fairs. (It should evade tethers though, which is nice.)

Also, I didn't remark on it, but 0% Pound to nair is now very safe and reliable across the cast, spacing provided. Worth noting.

Finally, a comment on Pound -> Rest. This can be screwed by away DI and requires an armpit hit of Pound to begin with, which is rare. It's there, and it's true, and it is very very scary to lighter characters. But like with drill rest it can be tempting to focus too much on the less realistic best-case rather than the baseline shift affecting both player's choices and behaviors. I think the realistic strength lies in those realiable Pound -> fair -> fair/nair -> offstage-tango sequences.


Edit:
I do think this newfound investment of power into Rest and Pound sequences is a polarized set of advantages. Ultimate Jigglypuff looks increasingly to be an anti-floaty floaty.

To an extent, this was always true? But man, all of this stuff is the bee's knees against Peach, and less relevant against say Joker.

Joker I'd guess as her worst matchup, Joker or Lucina. Joker is slender (hard to Rest), slippery (hard to Pound), and Jiggs surely hates his bair with the fury of a thousand suns. He also has that blasted +90% fast fall, one of the best anti-juggle tools in the game. It's not all bad at least: Mr. Arsene *hates* dying early, and Puff is probably one of the best characters to stall Arsene (at least partially) with. It's probably a bit like Brawl MK, where Puff just has to go big or go home.

Not sure how her outlier parameters affect Palu's nonsense, if at all. Wolf is probably a big meh. PT is a weird mix of things she hates and doesn't care about.

No whammies STOP! Stop, at a whammy!
The issue for puff is something that most people don't bring up because it's not used as often as shielding: dodge rolling. A drill to rest becomes worthless if the opponent reads you and simply rolls out of the way. I get why it's not used often, certain moves (damn you ganondorf's flame choke!) can move along the roll and still catch you if you don't use the right one, plus dodge rolls are different from character to character. Still one shouldn't ignore or forget about dodge rolls.

 

[blackghost]

He was a Richter / Ken dual main until he dropped the former after Shine 2019 in favor of Joker. No idea if the Terry pick is gonna stick, but it's interesting how a lot of shoto players seem to be gravitating towards him given he doesn't play anything like them.

(Well, I guess you could argue that in concept he's a more faithful transition of the idea than the actual shotos themselves are)

terry is closer to ken than i initially thought. terry's real combos as his meta develops will be using up b not power-dive. His neutral is better than ken's and his combo game is similar to kens including using dair and nair to extand combos. i tihnk you will see some kenplayers use him as a secondary in some MUs moving forward.

 

[J0eyboi]

If the target is on the right of Jigglypuff, they final hit will send them towards the right. If they're on the left, they'll get sent left. You can adjust Jigglypuff's positioning through your drift, but you have to be careful not to drift too far away.

No ****.

I know how hitboxes in this game work, obviously it sends right when they're to the right and left when they're to the left. The problem is that getting your opponent to be where you want them to be is really hard because of dair's weird multihit hitboxes, and with your opponent's SDI considered it becomes basically impossible.

On v. Joker definitely gets to run stuff offstage, but on it I don't think it's quite as bad as MKLeo pointed out - Joker loves to stay at that midrange where he can use "fake" pressure, into causing you to whiff a button where he can then punish you for it. Terry gets to no-sell him with the burst moves. Additionally, Terry onstage should be better at dealing with Arsene than others - Joker then has move towards Terry, which is dangerous, and every hit Terry does takes a huge chunk of Arsene's meter off of super safe pokes. Attacking Terry is risky, but not doing so wastes Arsene

This matches my notes from the few times I've gotten to play this MU. It's not free by any means - Joker's edgeguarding can be scary, and getting killed before 100 by Arsene really sucks. That said, I feel extremely comfortable against Joker in neutral as Terry, especially when I have Power Geyser on deck, and Terry's high damage and good kill power means I never feel like I'm dealing with Arsene for very long.

 

[The_Bookworm]

GimR is back at it again, this time analyzing Terry's Rising Tackle.

 

[KakuCP9]

Terry does not get ledge trapped. Just give it time.

I saw a clip of a Terry at the ledge hitting someone on stage with his ledge-drop uair and then converted off it into a crap ton of damage and I'm just like "Wow Terry. Very cool."
Couple that with the fact his uair has ****-all landing lag, being anywhere near the ledge is cost-prohibitive no matter how good a character is at ledge-trapping. The only characters that can actually threaten Terry at the ledge are probably the Belmonts and Robin.

 

[ZephyrZ]

No ****.

I know how hitboxes in this game work, obviously it sends right when they're to the right and left when they're to the left.

Well there tends to be a lot of confusion about moves like that with a lot of players, so I thought that maybe-

Oh never mind, now I just look like an idiot. Sorry for trying to be helpful.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I worry about PT's charizard. I used that exclusively and even with the buffs he just doesn't seem to completely help the entire team since the other two outshine him in vital areas. He has an excellent ground dash speed but squirtle almost matches him there while still having good aerial mobility, his kill power is outshined by ivysaur and both can outdo him in the combo and projectile department if one were to look at the frame data, the only real thing he has going for him is bulk and a recovery with super armor and an extra jump. Am I missing something here and if so can someone explain?

 

[Thinkaman]

No whammies STOP! Stop, at a whammy!
The issue for puff is something that most people don't bring up because it's not used as often as shielding: dodge rolling. A drill to rest becomes worthless if the opponent reads you and simply rolls out of the way. I get why it's not used often, certain moves (damn you ganondorf's flame choke!) can move along the roll and still catch you if you don't use the right one, plus dodge rolls are different from character to character. Still one shouldn't ignore or forget about dodge rolls.

What? Dodge comes out frame 2, shield comes out frame 1. When we talk about if ground combos are true or not, we talk about if they can be blocked. Dodging doesn't come into it.

Drill rest is true (the opponent has 0 frames to act), it's just a matter of spacing/SDI.

I worry about PT's charizard. I used that exclusively and even with the buffs he just doesn't seem to completely help the entire team since the other two outshine him in vital areas. He has an excellent ground dash speed but squirtle almost matches him there while still having good aerial mobility, his kill power is outshined by ivysaur and both can outdo him in the combo and projectile department if one were to look at the frame data, the only real thing he has going for him is bulk and a recovery with super armor and an extra jump. Am I missing something here and if so can someone explain?

OoS options. Charizard has arguably the best OoS option set in the game, with a huge grab + great throws, a super-quick u-smash, and a lethal, armored up-b. Any one of those would be the #1 OoS choice for like 90% of the roster, and Charizard has all 3.

Charizard is the most reliable killer, even if Ivysaur generally kills better. This, combined with his weight and superior recovery, gives Charizard a clearly defined role that he is quite good at. Everyone remembers the crazy Squirtle combo ending with a jab lock and Ivysaur killing with uairs and dairs at 50%, but no one remembers Charizard getting boring cleanup kills and living longer.

In other words: Squirtle and Ivysaur's job is to help you win, Charizard's job is to help you not lose.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

OoS options. Charizard has arguably the best OoS option set in the game, with a huge grab + great throws, a super-quick u-smash, and a lethal, armored up-b. Any one of those would be the #1 OoS choice for like 90% of the roster, and Charizard has all 3.

Honestly, if Zard still had Short-Hop Auto-Cancel F-air, he'd probably would have the best OoS in the game.

 

[Thinkaman]

Honestly, if Zard still had Short-Hop Auto-Cancel F-air, he'd probably would have the best OoS in the game.

Hey look, you identified the one Charizard buff I'd approve!

There are a lot of aerials (well, a few) that I would love to see SHAC. Many of these were things that SHAC'd in a previous game, like Ganon dair, Samus fair, Ike fair, DH dair, all Lucas aerials beside bair, Jiggs air dodge... I have always appreciated the springy cadence of buffered SH aerials, and am always going to be in favor of more within reason.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I wonder what PT place in the meta is kinda going to be like. Its kinda odd some of thw notable mains seemed tp fully switch to Joker. i.e Wishes and Tweek.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I wonder what PT place in the meta is kinda going to be like. Its kinda odd some of thw notable mains seemed tp fully switch to Joker. i.e Wishes and Tweek.

I'm wondering the exact same thing, with both of those switching up the question for PT is "What now?"

 

[BlackInk]

Honestly, if Zard still had Short-Hop Auto-Cancel F-air, he'd probably would have the best OoS in the game.

That would be so damn annoying. Two fast OOS is enough.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

That would be so damn annoying. Two fast OOS is enough.

Yeah, lets bascially give up-b level Oos option to a superheavy. At least Bowsers whirling fortress comes out on frame 6 and is not likely going to kill you.

 

[BlackInk]

Yeah, lets bascially give up-b level Oos option to a superheavy. At least Bowsers whirling fortress comes out on frame 6 and is not likely going to kill you.

When I imagine buffs for a character, I only think about how reasonable the buff is and what I can take away from the original move to make it better but not bs. It’s why I consider to rework Inkling’s fair into a consistent kill move that loses almost all of its sour spot frames for potential tech chases, combos, or edgegaurding. This Charzard buff isn’t really taking that approach at all and it’ll easily make Charzard the cheapest kill character in the game because characters already struggle to approach that thing’s shield without dying for it. Also, why haven’t they nerfed Gaming and Watch’s up-b yet when it’s so safe to use and abuse?

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait, lol what? G&W up-b is f3 OoS, has invincibility, and ends up in a different zipcode. Charizard fair is f11 counting jumpsquat, and is weaker than his (faster) other options.

Making Charizard fair (or any move) have a different AC window doesn't change the situations it can punish or the strength of the punish one bit. It's just a quality of life factor affecting how good the movement feels and how penalizing a mistaken punish attempt is.

On any other character, this could still be a dangerous change to make--it could improve their OoS game a meaningful bit, just because their best option would be a bit more fluid. But no one cares if we make Charizard's fourth-best OoS tool feel better.

You guys do understand we're literally just talking about Smash 4 Charizard, right?

 

[BlackInk]

Wait, lol what? G&W up-b is f3 OoS, has invincibility, and ends up in a different zipcode. Charizard fair is f11 counting jumpsquat, and is weaker than his (faster) other options.

Making Charizard fair (or any move) have a different AC window doesn't change the situations it can punish or the strength of the punish one bit. It's just a quality of life factor affecting how good the movement feels and how penalizing a mistaken punish attempt is.

On any other character, this could still be a dangerous change to make--it could improve their OoS game a meaningful bit, just because their best option would be a bit more fluid. But no one cares if we make Charizard's fourth-best OoS tool feel better.

You guys do understand we're literally just talking about Smash 4 Charizard, right?

Smash 4 Charzard???

 

[Lacrimosa]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Huh...
I guess this is legit?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fix that SDI multiplier on Terry's jab.

I dare you Nintendo.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Since Terry has already won a tournament: Nerfs incoming?
I hope not. Every new character seems crazy at first and counterplay isn't there yet. I really hope they don't do that.


Buff Zelda instead.

 

[Anomika]

Improve the consistency of multi hits and increase the grab range / speed on certain fighters. And obviously, fix the Buster Wolf glitch. I don't have much else to say honestly, other than typical "buff mid-to-bottom tiers and don't overnerf high / top tiers".

I don't think patch 6.1.0 will just bring bug fixes because the patch version would've been 6.0.1. Also 3.1.0 brought some neat little additions so 6.1.0 might do it as well?

 

[Arthur97]

Since Terry has already won a tournament: Nerfs incoming?
I hope not. Every new character seems crazy at first and counterplay isn't there yet. I really hope they don't do that.


Buff Zelda instead.

Didn't Joker win a tourney day 1 and hasn't received any real nerfs?

If anything, it's probably to fix the freeze glitch.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Didn't Joker win a tourney day 1 and hasn't received any real nerfs?

If anything, it's probably to fix the freeze glitch.

But we do have the 1 in the second slot: 6.1.0.
Don't know what it was, but the 4.0.1 or 5.0.1 patch didn't change the balancing and they also only did small things there. I would be very much surprised if they bump the version number up to 6.1.0 instead of 6.0.1 if it's only a glitch fix.

 

[NotLiquid]

Didn't Joker win a tourney day 1 and hasn't received any real nerfs?

If anything, it's probably to fix the freeze glitch.

Bug fixes are usually attributed to x.0.1 type patches, x.1.0 patches tend to be more substantive.

That being said, this patch is being pushed out really fast, so I doubt it was in response to anything specific that happened this last week. Whatever balance changes it may bring, those have likely been done for a while (6.0.0 was most likely completed some time mid-October, with 6.1.0 being more recent).

 

[Arthur97]

Seems too soon for a balance patch, and, really, naming patches is kind of arbitrary. Like, I really don't think it should be called V6, but I get it for simplicity sake.

 

[Thinkaman]

Smash 4 Charzard???

Charizard fair SHAC'd in Smash 4. The AC window is the same in Ultimate, but the tweaked gravity across the entire cast makes him land 1 frame sooner. (And miss the AC by one frame)