Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    496

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,059
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
Smash's patches have all been pretty low magnitude tbqh. On a scale of 1-10 in terms of boldness, Smash patches have generally been maybe a 2, 3 if you squint.

Virtually every game I know of with nontrivial balance/content patches have more of a shakeup. Even among other games with conservative attitudes, like say StarCraft. We just got "big" changes (that most games would consider small) on less than 10% of the roster, and some of the most rare characters at that. (Which is obviously sort of the point, but that doesn't make it less true.)

Smash patches are pretty much half a step forward, zero steps back.
 

SwagGuy99

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
342
But seriously, Doc SH Cape is one of the best tools unique to him. Because it retains aerial movement and perfectly matches the duration of his short hop, he is the only character in the game who can aggressively move forward while reflecting projectiles. (Short of Hero having Bounce up.)

It's a quick, 35 frame manuever (that is exempt from even normal landing lag!) with a respectable hitbox. Properly intercepting a non-SHAC aerial will result in the opponent still getting landing lag, while you are landing with not just 2 or 4, but ZERO. And if you catch a projectile, like a Thundershock? You are landing next to them while it hits them in the face. Even Falco's Reflector is jealous.

Mario can't do this. No one can do this. Bonus points because people always seem a little surprised by it and may attempt unwise "punishes"--no one expects Doc of all people to have such a quick and elegant neutral option.
I've never thought of Doc's cape being that good of a move, but you're 100% right on all of this. And if he was a better character, he could abuse this much more than he currently can.

Edit:

This brings up the power creep. Characters who didn't get buffed, especially those in lower mid tier near the buffed characters are feeling it. DLC keeps adding at least upper mid tier characters and patches are buffing low tiers (and some mid tiers). DDD's one of the victims.

Overall I'm happy with the patch. They should have nerfed a few top tiers but at least bad characters got meaningful buffs.
I mentioned this the other day with :ultfalcon: and :ultdoc:. Some other victims of this currently are :ultcorrin::ultzelda::ultkingdedede::ultlittlemac::ultganondorf::ultbrawler: and :ultincineroar: (his buffs in this patch don't do anything to solve his issues; he's probably the worst super-heavy now).

Speaking of the buffs though, every character but :ultincineroar: and :ultrobin: had at least one major issue addressed in this patch, if not more:
  • While :ultkrool: might still be a low tier, he's probably not the worst superheavy anymore. N-air having less landing lag gives him a possible landing option, a safe move against shields, and a good move for combos, all things he was lacking in before.
  • :ultdk: has improved OOS now due to the increased range on n-air and all of the various buffs to up-b to make it more powerful, safer, and reliable. Down-b on the ground and Giant Punch buffs are good, but not as crucial to fixing one of his worst weaknesses.
  • :ultjigglypuff: now his multiple kill confirms into rest and a better airdodge. These were two of her worst issues and Pound in general is a better combo starter than before as well.
  • :ultkirby: has more kill power on up-air and n-air, making them more reliable kill options. Both moves are less laggy as well, giving him faster aerial options. Up-air is better for juggling. Up-smash sour-spot can KO semi-reliably now. Kirby's jab is a better combo breaker than before. These were all issues that affected Kirby before the patch and while he still isn't great
 
Last edited:

Spinosaurus

Treasure Hunter
Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
3,630
NNID
WarioLand
Incineroar's buffs are absolutely not something to sneeze at. Jab being a reliable, non committal frame 5 kill move with revenge active now is a big boon for the character. Revenge having 4 frames shaved off its recovery is also very helpful against projectiles. He also has Falcon Dair now.

The character isn't gonna shoot up the tiers or suddenly be good or anything (nor do I think this for any of the buffed characters besides Puff) but he absolutely isn't the worst superheavy lol.
 
Last edited:

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,059
Location
Madison, WI
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
NNID
Thinkaman
I mean I think the bigger fix for Kirby was the nair and inhale paths that have opened up, where he was previously just sad and got embarassingly low reward for getting in. This was discussed by people who know Kirby far better than me on the previous page of this thread.

As for Incineroar, the Revenge change really was big. Indulge me in going into it in detail:

First, as a recap, Revenge skews the math to make Brawl-Ganon-With-A-Tail into a scary threat. Revenge fizzles if you grab him, but at that point you are playing Incineroar's game: people smother Brawl Ganon Incineroar with range, speed, projectiles, and safety--all of which you have to give up to start fishing for grabs. Revenge directly counters the things Incineroar hates dealing with.

Second, take a moment to really think about how Revenge answers projectiles. Consider Pikachu, who is a bad matchup that would be a terrible matchup if he could t-shock with impunity all day. Revenge let's Incineroar charge off those projectiles as if it were PSI Magnet, totally changing the dynamic. Now, Pikachu can closely follow the t-shock and grab Incineroar out of the Revenge animation if he is close enough. But too close and he gets hit by the burst--Pikachu has to stay in a spatial window to punish successful Revenge. And now, with a bigger Revenge hitbox and lower endlag, that spatial window is much narrower, and much more plausible for Incineroar to space around.

Finally, I want to highlight the overlooked relationship with Lariat and shieldstun. Revenge isn't consumed on shield hit, but it DOES affect shield stun. Revenge'd Incineroar become more and more positive on block. This is most pronounced with Lariat, which with a little Revenge reaches the point of completely shieldlocking the opponent. This causes one of the later hits to always shieldpoke--completely "true". Now not only is Revenge easier to get, but Lariat's first hit does 17% raw (20.4% 1v1), so you need less Revenge than before to achieve that potent lock. And, of course, you can now do more than 60% off a single Revenge'd Lariat if they don't block it.

TBQH, I find the jab and dair changes trivial in comparison to the Revenge stuff. (Though Revenge'd Jab3 is significant.)


Fun fact: Lariat, like Shulk d-smash, is a multi-hit move that does full damage on every hit, designed to hit people completely away in one strike. But, if they opponent didn't get hit away, you could land all those full-damage hits. At its 15 frame rehit rate, Incineroar Lariat can now do 48% damage (raw) if I'm remembering right. With Revenge, 1v1, fresh, that's 181.44%.

If Joker Rebel Guards that (the full thing), that's still 72.6% damage.
 

Broom

Lock and Load
Premium
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
522
Location
North Carolina
NNID
MetallicBlur
Switch FC
SW-1415-6753-4608
I don't think Incineroar is capable of being the worst heavy unless K.Rool gets some *major* frame data buffs to his projectiles and Ganondorf gets an actual recovery. His buttons are too good up close for him to be the worst, and Ganondorf dies at laughable %'s for a superheavy while retaining all of the usual superheavy cons on his shoulders, so I especially don't think he's better than Incineroar, or any of the superheavies besides K.Rool for that matter.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,846
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
Does Kirby's new jab frame make it impossible for people to ledge jump past kirby's rapid jab? I don't have any footage, but i remember labbing it before and pikachu could get past it 30% of the time. He doesn't seem able to get past it at all now. (Pikachu has one of the best ledge jumps due to his tiny hurtbox and flip animation)

Considering it's such a LOW hitbox with a scary trajectory, it'd also be an effective ledge rising punish.

Nair/Inhale are all also around the same frame oos. Curious to see how his ledge play develops.
 
Last edited:

Broom

Lock and Load
Premium
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
522
Location
North Carolina
NNID
MetallicBlur
Switch FC
SW-1415-6753-4608
^That happened, lol.
Only to the cannonball and it's still one of the slowest to startup projectile attacks in the game. I meant to say major buffs. I guess I forgot to type the major part. But yeah, crown and cannonball are still extremely telegraphed to the point that they still shouldn't be used much in neutral.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,250
Only to the cannonball and it's still one of the slowest to startup projectile attacks in the game. I meant to say major buffs. I guess I forgot to type the major part. But yeah, crown and cannonball are still extremely telegraphed to the point that they still shouldn't be used much in neutral.

K.Rools projectile specials seem to kind of want to serve the same role as Palutena' s. In that there not really meant to zone out or use in neutral like typical projectiles. Rather they have niches to do the folowing

1. Use in your your advantage state to continue to pressure opponents.
2. either try to "zonebreak" or even counter other projectiles on a hard read.

Only Palu's Autoreticle and Explosive Flame are more effective due to being a more effective character. Lol
 
Last edited:

BlackInk

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
310
I mean I think the bigger fix for Kirby was the nair and inhale paths that have opened up, where he was previously just sad and got embarassingly low reward for getting in. This was discussed by people who know Kirby far better than me on the previous page of this thread.

As for Incineroar, the Revenge change really was big. Indulge me in going into it in detail:

First, as a recap, Revenge skews the math to make Brawl-Ganon-With-A-Tail into a scary threat. Revenge fizzles if you grab him, but at that point you are playing Incineroar's game: people smother Brawl Ganon Incineroar with range, speed, projectiles, and safety--all of which you have to give up to start fishing for grabs. Revenge directly counters the things Incineroar hates dealing with.

Second, take a moment to really think about how Revenge answers projectiles. Consider Pikachu, who is a bad matchup that would be a terrible matchup if he could t-shock with impunity all day. Revenge let's Incineroar charge off those projectiles as if it were PSI Magnet, totally changing the dynamic. Now, Pikachu can closely follow the t-shock and grab Incineroar out of the Revenge animation if he is close enough. But too close and he gets hit by the burst--Pikachu has to stay in a spatial window to punish successful Revenge. And now, with a bigger Revenge hitbox and lower endlag, that spatial window is much narrower, and much more plausible for Incineroar to space around.

Finally, I want to highlight the overlooked relationship with Lariat and shieldstun. Revenge isn't consumed on shield hit, but it DOES affect shield stun. Revenge'd Incineroar become more and more positive on block. This is most pronounced with Lariat, which with a little Revenge reaches the point of completely shieldlocking the opponent. This causes one of the later hits to always shieldpoke--completely "true". Now not only is Revenge easier to get, but Lariat's first hit does 17% raw (20.4% 1v1), so you need less Revenge than before to achieve that potent lock. And, of course, you can now do more than 60% off a single Revenge'd Lariat if they don't block it.

TBQH, I find the jab and dair changes trivial in comparison to the Revenge stuff. (Though Revenge'd Jab3 is significant.)


Fun fact: Lariat, like Shulk d-smash, is a multi-hit move that does full damage on every hit, designed to hit people completely away in one strike. But, if they opponent didn't get hit away, you could land all those full-damage hits. At its 15 frame rehit rate, Incineroar Lariat can now do 48% damage (raw) if I'm remembering right. With Revenge, 1v1, fresh, that's 181.44%.

If Joker Rebel Guards that (the full thing), that's still 72.6% damage.
I’m surprised that they make Kirby’s aerials so ridiculously slow in the first place when they have pretty small hit boxes.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,593
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
OK, so Terry.

To start with, don't compare him to Ryu and Ken. Ryu and Ken have the Luigi design where they have a hard time getting in, but once they get in, they do massive damage. Terry is even slower than those two for raw stats (less than 1.0 air speed, slow dash), but he has 4 burst-mobility specials (Power Dunk, Burning Tackle, Crack Shot, and are-u-ok in Go!), and an incredibly beautiful dash attack for burst. When he uses one of these, he goes from being bottom 5 mobility in the cast to top 5, so his archetype is automatically way different from Ryu/Ken: Terry is a whiff punisher.

His back dash is actually crazy good for this purpose; the little hurtbox shift that he does and the short distance he travels and just how quick it is combines with his burst options to let him whiff punish any attack in the game. For example, Lucina landing n-airs (which is usually very safe) and Terry back-dashes into Crack Shot, and at most spacings it doesn't matter if she gets out the shield in time or not, he'll just blaze past her even if he doesn't hit her.

It's kind of hard to approach Terry. Power Wave is a good projectile; low-profilers like Inkling and Pikachu have to come at you the traditional way, so you can use it to force a jump, and because of Terry's burst mobility, jumping isn't that safe. Crack Shot just eats up most jump ins that don't already have a hitbox going when he uses it.

Approaching slowly with shields is the way to go, but then, as it turns out, you're playing Terry's game. Up close, Terry's frame data is a bit slow and he's not safe on shield, but it doesn't matter. The thing is, you can't react to anything that he's doing up close, and if you guess wrong or if you mis-space even slightly, you take more damage than he risks taking. He can spotdodge cancel into a kill confirm, he can jab you for 40%, or he can just use one of his invincible options for a quick 20%.

If you're someone like Fox and you're going aggro on Terry and n-airing and jabbing, you're playing the wrong side of the risk-reward table, even though you're so much faster up close. Terry just has to mash buttons to be completely random with what he's doing and you will get hit, and you will take a ton of damage. Your best bet is punishing OOS, but in that case, if Terry has Go!, you're just Gone! up-tilt Power Geyser ravages shield.

Terry's crouch is actually a hidden top-tier tool too. d-tilt may not be safe on shield but it confirms into so many options, and if you attack him, Terry has two sources of invincibility directly out of crouch--he can spotdodge and dodge attack, or he can Rising Tackle. Spotdodge covers your grounded moves and Rising Tackle anti-airs. For similar reasoning, Terry's OOS is amazing--you can spotdodge directly out of shield and follow up however you want; summoning more than a dozen frames of invulnerability out of an already strong defensive position and possibly getting 40% or the stock for it? That's insane.

Terry in neutral is overall great, and he gets enough reward off of neutral conversions and being up close that even if his advantage state (juggling, ledgetrapping, edgeguarding) weren't that great he wouldn't need it to be. But his ledgetrapping in particular is actually pretty good, since you can't really roll behind him unless he's in the middle of an animation. He can just stand near ledge shielding and as soon as you do anything other than jump, he can spotdodge and cancel it into a power move. With Go!, he edges out just about every other ledgetrapper in terms of lethal mixups.

So, for archetype, Terry is one of the slowest characters in the game who can, while whiff punishing, be one of the fastest, and gets huge reward off of being close to his opponent. You can't whiff against him, it's hard to zone him, you can't approach him, and you don't get as much reward as he does once you've actually approached him. That archetype actually hasn't existed in smash before, but from my experience playing it, I can tell you that it's probably viable against every other archetype in the game.

But Terry has two obvious problems. One is that some zoning characters like Megaman actually don't care about Power Wave or even Crack Shot and can force Terry to commit really hard to a burst option to get in, while never needing to go in themselves. Those matchups are likely difficult.

The other (and you've probably already heard this from different people) is that he doesn't snap to the ledge with most of his specials. Terry does have some options to mix up his recovery (invincible Rising Tackle, Crack Shot, Power Wave stall, etc.), but his air-speed is bad. Compare to Chrom who can often airdodge to ledge by virtue of his insane air speed and avoid the edgeguard attempt altogether, but still loses his stock sometimes while recovering, and it's a bad look for offstage Terry.

On the bright side, Terry does deal pretty decently with other forms of disadvantage such as being ledge-trapped and certain juggling situations. His burst options, invincible options and spotdodge canceling are great in those bad situations, and 108 weight can allow him to come back through Go! if they end up going poorly for him.

I'm going to predict that he's actually pretty good, somewhere in the high tiers, maybe a bit shy of top tier. For Terry to be top tier, his recovery game (not his punish game, which is what everyone is working on) needs to be optimized on a per-matchup basis. No one ever labs disadvantage. But that's what the Terrys are going to have to do if they want to have that top 10-15 status. And it's possible (though somewhat unlikely) that he's just OK enough to get there.

GOODBYE.
You nailed it, but Terry's frame data is actually good.
 

Nate1080

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 17, 2015
Messages
92
Location
New York
NNID
Nate1080
Terry is super fun to play with.

A crouching Terry is super dangerous because it can lead into like 4 command moves and his “Go” moves.

Power Wave is just sick. A low profile projectile in Smash is ridiculous imo, especially one with different speeds and goes almost across an entire stage. I feel like I’m playing Guile in Street Fighter using slow Power Wave with Terry, just using it to slowly move to my opponent and bait them out.



Also, Burning Knuckle and Crack Shoot go through Snake’s Nikita Missiles. Found that out day 1 while playing against a friend.
 
Last edited:

$.A.F.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
399
Location
The Plant Gang HQ
This thread is sleeping on the :ultkrool: buffs hard. Let’s talk about his Nair first since a couple people have mentioned it. We all need to understand just how good this is. We now have a super heavy with a landing option. A landing option that has armor, lasts forever and is now safe on shield. That is a tremendous improvement to :ultkrool:’s disadvantage state that can’t be understated. And now he has actual combos from it. Nair > Down Tilt > Imagination is true now. Even the late hit is only -7. His forward air is now disjointed, does more damage, is active longer and kills earlier. Forward air went from a good aerial to a great aerial. It kills at like 90-100 at ledge and leads to dash attack at low percentages. Up air is active significantly longer and kills earlier. Blunderbuss is faster in every way as well.
So basically we have a patch that made K. Rool kill earlier, have actual safe pressure, Improved 3 of his 5 aerials significantly, Made his neutral b significantly faster, and as I forgot to mention, made gut check one of the best counters in the entire game if not the best. (Save for of course a certain phantom thief). I can’t honestly see how he’d still be in low tier. Lower end of mid tier maybe, but certainly not low tier.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,812
Location
United States of Russia
That is a tremendous improvement to :ultkrool:’s disadvantage state that can’t be understated. And now he has actual combos from it. Nair > Down Tilt > Imagination is true now.
I tested some things on training and don't think this is true. Late Nair>land>jab/Utilt (frame 4/5) works at low %s. Late Nair>Ftilt (f12) has a small window around 60% where that combos due to Ftilt's long reach. Nair>Dtilt (f14) never worked on Mario; he was knocked away too far by the time the hitstun was enough to combo. So I switched to Bowser, the heaviest character. Nair>Dtilt comboed barely around 60% but with the outer sourspot that doesn't bury and popped Bowser up. It's possible I'm missing something but Nair>Dtilt bury doesn't seem true.
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
2,161
I'm still not convinced it's enough to save the croc, but time will tell.

Also, how is Gut Check now one of the best counters? I mean, I personally think it's limited window should at least make it strongest (which it was tied for highest multiplier before they decided to have Joker have just all around the best counter in the game).
 
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,068

Locus made a video on recovering with Terry. Essentially either recover high and use Power Wave/Crack Shoot/Power Dunk/Burn Knuckle to mixup your incoming angle (as a note, Power Dunk autocancels if you're at a high enough altitude), or do like most Plant players do with their recovery - ideally go deep and to the bottom corner of the stage. He snaps to the ledge by the very end of Rising Tackle's animation which means from a low enough distance he will get onto the ledge, and since he gains intangibility on his legs, it's actually fairly safe, provided you're at a proper distance.
 
Last edited:

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,067
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
NNID
SDShamshel

Abadango doesn't have the highest initial opinion of Terry, but something about his Day 2 matchup chart made me notice something: Terry basically operates at the same range as Wolf.

Wolf is good at the mid range, where his projectile and sudden burst options can close the distance deceptively quickly. Terry is in a similar boat, and it makes me interested in seeing that matchup n develop.
 

Wigglerman

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
261
Location
Maine
After a few days with the patch, I can say I definitely feel the difference in Macho Cat. It hasn't made my success with him MUCH better though it has helped. His fair being better has continued to surprise me, dair I don't use as often but getting the meteor hit more often feels good and even on stage helps set up a combo or read follow up. Lariat is just good anyway and they just made it better so that's nothing surprising to hear. Jab 3 is probably what has been surprising me still. Even though I know its stronger, just seeing how much farther it knocks people away keeps making me raise an eyebrow. A much better 'get off me' if you hit it and reset your position to follow up on their return. Will he jump tiers? Probably not, but they were quality of life changes I can get behind. If only they helped his grab range a little.

K. Rool, however, I find increasingly oppressive with the Nair change. At least, online. Not sure if it'd be easier to deal with locally without any sort of lag. But I keep getting belly flopped on and even in shield I have NO idea how to deal with it. So I've just had to opt to not being around when they short hop belly flop all across the stage and trying to hit him above the armor or just try to get some breathing room. It'll take a little time to adjust and is more of a 'this is new, need to learn' scenario and also won't shoot the croc up the tiers but may shuffle spots a little at worst.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,812
Location
United States of Russia

Abadango doesn't have the highest initial opinion of Terry, but something about his Day 2 matchup chart made me notice something: Terry basically operates at the same range as Wolf.

Wolf is good at the mid range, where his projectile and sudden burst options can close the distance deceptively quickly. Terry is in a similar boat, and it makes me interested in seeing that matchup n develop.
Is this based 90% on theory? This seems pessimistic but I agree with the placements of the characters I used vs Terry: :ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultlink:

:ult_terry: is probably a high tier. His burst options are great and partially invincible, his jab and other attacks cancel to specials making fast, low commitment confirms and he has a Lucario like comeback factor with big attacks over 100%. He has too much going for him to be mid tier.
On the flipside he does seem to struggle with zoners. I've fallen out of some combos like jab>downB; it might have been positioning. There's also the issue of his ledge snap being easy to punish if true.

Vs
:ultyounglink: as long as YL keeps far enough away that initial invulnerability of moves like downB don't get him YL can give terry a hard time. A lot of Terry's normal attacks have poor range and no disjoint.

:ultlink: can zone him with both his sword and projectiles but is more at risk from Terry's bursts.
:ultwolf: interestingly I had the most trouble as Wolf because like Nobie said, Terry likes to play at the same range. Terry's good at bursting in and comboing Wolf. But I also fell for a lot of day 1 supermoves I wasn't expecting.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
1,535
much like DLC characters, im not sure the fanbase really actually wants some of these low tiers to be better, they just think they do. letssee how people react to puff over the next couple of weeks because that character has real competitive potential now. I amNOT saying shes high tier or anything but puff may see some results with her new confirms and options
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Moderator
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
3,548
Location
Canada,BC
3DS FC
4055-4053-1813
NNID
Skullicide
After a few days with the patch, I can say I definitely feel the difference in Macho Cat. It hasn't made my success with him MUCH better though it has helped. His fair being better has continued to surprise me, dair I don't use as often but getting the meteor hit more often feels good and even on stage helps set up a combo or read follow up. Lariat is just good anyway and they just made it better so that's nothing surprising to hear. Jab 3 is probably what has been surprising me still. Even though I know its stronger, just seeing how much farther it knocks people away keeps making me raise an eyebrow. A much better 'get off me' if you hit it and reset your position to follow up on their return. Will he jump tiers? Probably not, but they were quality of life changes I can get behind. If only they helped his grab range a little.

K. Rool, however, I find increasingly oppressive with the Nair change. At least, online. Not sure if it'd be easier to deal with locally without any sort of lag. But I keep getting belly flopped on and even in shield I have NO idea how to deal with it. So I've just had to opt to not being around when they short hop belly flop all across the stage and trying to hit him above the armor or just try to get some breathing room. It'll take a little time to adjust and is more of a 'this is new, need to learn' scenario and also won't shoot the croc up the tiers but may shuffle spots a little at worst.

You actually can't do a whole lot vs k rools Nair on shield, especially when perfectly spaced. Pretty much notice besides Game and Watches up b out of shield can beat it (we all know that move is silly though)

For reference: gimr's video on nair


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OkkpThxu3wg
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,217
What is the typical Bottom 5 now that most of the original Bottom 5 have been buffed.
For me, Mac, Ganon, and Doc comes to mind, but I wanna hear other people's opinions on the matter.
For me, it is :ultisabelle::ultganondorf::ultdoc::ultlittlemac: and either :ultcorrinf: or :ultbayonetta:.

I think these 6 are noticeably lacking in comparison to the rest of the lower areas (low tier and lower mid tier).
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
52
What is the typical Bottom 5 now that most of the original Bottom 5 have been buffed.
For me, Mac, Ganon, and Doc comes to mind, but I wanna hear other people's opinions on the matter.
Mac as the worst, Isabelle, and Corrin as the bottom 3. Bottom 5 is a bit hard for the rest of the two but I think either King Dedede (just read my entire post, and the more I think about it the worst DDD gets lol), Ganondorf, DK again, or Kirby again might be good contenders. I think Dr. Mario is a little underrated but that could be me lol.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 30, 2004
Messages
1,206
Location
The space between genius and madness
NNID
Hyperdon
I've been wondering lately...

If I were to visit every single character page, would I see "Character X wins against :ultridley: " at least 90% of the time? Feels like respect for the character is at an all-time low. And I don't mean in the typical "he's not good" manner. More like in a semi-apathetic "no need to dwell on it" sort of way. Lack of prominent users don't help either, but the dragon just gets no real discussion.

But apparently he's still likely Mid Tier material. Definitely not high, but at least for some Low Tier is a bit extreme. Is it just that :ultridley: is too unappealing a character to attempt to elevate, outside of the few Ridley enthusiasts? A character that can be rewarding when the work is put in, but doesn't get that love because of so many other characters being easier to use while getting similar or better results?
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
6,789
Location
Canada, Quebec
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
NNID
meleebrawler
I've been wondering lately...

If I were to visit every single character page, would I see "Character X wins against :ultridley: " at least 90% of the time? Feels like respect for the character is at an all-time low. And I don't mean in the typical "he's not good" manner. More like in a semi-apathetic "no need to dwell on it" sort of way. Lack of prominent users don't help either, but the dragon just gets no real discussion.

But apparently he's still likely Mid Tier material. Definitely not high, but at least for some Low Tier is a bit extreme. Is it just that :ultridley: is too unappealing a character to attempt to elevate, outside of the few Ridley enthusiasts? A character that can be rewarding when the work is put in, but doesn't get that love because of so many other characters being easier to use while getting similar or better results?
Due to having a moveset that is pretty much "all attack, no defence", it's pretty straightforward for a given character to come up with a gameplan against him, then they just meme his disadvantage and call it a day, from the sounds of it. But like Ganondorf, all the matchups can carry the caveat of "if you mess up, he'll destroy you anyway". Some days he can make crushing upsets, steamrolls and/or comebacks against top tiers, other days he makes low tiers look good with how much and how easily he can get comboed.
 

BlackInk

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
310
I'd say Corrin would be worse than Bayo, at least Bayo has a decent DPS.
Having a decent DPS as a character with struggling or inconsistent kill power is arguably worse than having decent kill power and mediocre DPS. It’s because rage and comeback mechanics do come into play and screw over the lead a player has.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,217
Tri-State Showdown: Fall 2019 (B Tier)

1st: Nairo:ultpalutena:
2nd: Tweek:ultjoker:
3rd: Dabuz:ultolimar:
4th: RFang:ultpichu:
5th: Wishes:ultjoker:
5th: Mr E:ultlucina:
7th: Juice:ultfalco:
7th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
9th: LeoN:ultbowser:
9th: Jakal:ultwolf:
9th: RIvers:ultchrom:
9th: Sinji:ultpacman:
13th: BlazingPasta:ultpeach:
13th: ZeroTwoNone:ultzelda:
13th: Stocktaker69:ultwolf:
13th: Yoda Cage:ultbowserjr::ultdk:


After losing to Nairo in winner's finals, Tweek had him very shook in grand's. His Joker is on fire! However, Nairo brought it back to win the event.
Also, that RFang:ultpichu::ultyounglink: vs Wishes:ulticeclimbers: set was probably one of the wackiest sets I have seen.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something completely overlooked, is that GameTyrant Expo 2019 took place last weekend. Here is the results for that tournament.

GameTyrant Expo 2019 (No PGR ranking for some reason despite having 171 entrants)

1st: Prodigy:ultmario:
2nd: Lui$:ultfox::ultfalco:
3rd: Cosmos:ultinkling:
4th: varun:ultwiifittrainer:
5th: Pandarian:ultpokemontrainerf:
5th: Dragoomba:ultrob:
7th: ven:ultzelda:
7th: MastaMario:ultmario:
9th: Dakpo:ultdiddy:
9th: Shoe:ultzss:
9th: Banana Boy:ultyoshi:
9th: BestNess:ultness::ultpalutena:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a note, can someone help me with the Terry stock icon here in Smashboards? It is invisible to me.
I know that there is a solution to this issue, but I forgot it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the worst neutrals in the game, aerials are lacking, very slow, some moves are seriously punishable, his recovery may go high lengths and have a hitbox but it is super predictable considering he doesn't have much options offstage.

He needs changes.
While I agree that PPlant is a bit overrated, I don't think he is bottom 5 (or maybe even 10) bad.
I think it is low tier, but I think it's strengths (great ledgetrapping, good damage racking, and Ptooie) and results he does have does prevent him from going that far down the list.
There are currently some other characters that needs more help.

As for Mii Brawler, I am sort of conflicted on its tier placement. Some players bring him up as high as upper mid tier, while others put him at bottom 5 like in your list. Views on the character is so ridiculously polarizing. :nervous:
ICs are similar to that, but to a lesser extreme degree.

I've been wondering lately...

If I were to visit every single character page, would I see "Character X wins against :ultridley: " at least 90% of the time? Feels like respect for the character is at an all-time low. And I don't mean in the typical "he's not good" manner. More like in a semi-apathetic "no need to dwell on it" sort of way. Lack of prominent users don't help either, but the dragon just gets no real discussion.

But apparently he's still likely Mid Tier material. Definitely not high, but at least for some Low Tier is a bit extreme. Is it just that :ultridley: is too unappealing a character to attempt to elevate, outside of the few Ridley enthusiasts? A character that can be rewarding when the work is put in, but doesn't get that love because of so many other characters being easier to use while getting similar or better results?
When you have a 81 character roster in this game, that is something that is bound to happen. :ohwell:

As for Incineroar, the Revenge change really was big. Indulge me in going into it in detail:

First, as a recap, Revenge skews the math to make Brawl-Ganon-With-A-Tail into a scary threat. Revenge fizzles if you grab him, but at that point you are playing Incineroar's game: people smother Brawl Ganon Incineroar with range, speed, projectiles, and safety--all of which you have to give up to start fishing for grabs. Revenge directly counters the things Incineroar hates dealing with.

Second, take a moment to really think about how Revenge answers projectiles. Consider Pikachu, who is a bad matchup that would be a terrible matchup if he could t-shock with impunity all day. Revenge let's Incineroar charge off those projectiles as if it were PSI Magnet, totally changing the dynamic. Now, Pikachu can closely follow the t-shock and grab Incineroar out of the Revenge animation if he is close enough. But too close and he gets hit by the burst--Pikachu has to stay in a spatial window to punish successful Revenge. And now, with a bigger Revenge hitbox and lower endlag, that spatial window is much narrower, and much more plausible for Incineroar to space around.

Finally, I want to highlight the overlooked relationship with Lariat and shieldstun. Revenge isn't consumed on shield hit, but it DOES affect shield stun. Revenge'd Incineroar become more and more positive on block. This is most pronounced with Lariat, which with a little Revenge reaches the point of completely shieldlocking the opponent. This causes one of the later hits to always shieldpoke--completely "true". Now not only is Revenge easier to get, but Lariat's first hit does 17% raw (20.4% 1v1), so you need less Revenge than before to achieve that potent lock. And, of course, you can now do more than 60% off a single Revenge'd Lariat if they don't block it.

TBQH, I find the jab and dair changes trivial in comparison to the Revenge stuff. (Though Revenge'd Jab3 is significant.)


Fun fact: Lariat, like Shulk d-smash, is a multi-hit move that does full damage on every hit, designed to hit people completely away in one strike. But, if they opponent didn't get hit away, you could land all those full-damage hits. At its 15 frame rehit rate, Incineroar Lariat can now do 48% damage (raw) if I'm remembering right. With Revenge, 1v1, fresh, that's 181.44%.

If Joker Rebel Guards that (the full thing), that's still 72.6% damage.
As time went on, Incineroar's buffs are starting to become a bit more noticeable for me. It is nice to see this character get some pretty good buffs as well.

Fun fact: both Mew2King and Dabuz thinks that Incineroar is actually nerfed overall from the patch (mostly the former), because the increased Revenge knockback essentially removed Revenge -> dash attack or side B, aka: a combo that is situational and not even true. lmao
 

Zinith

Yoshi is Thicc in S P I R I T
Premium
Rankings Team
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
20,762
Location
All around you, awaiting to consume your soul
Switch FC
SW 4624 0132 9722
On a note, can someone help me with the Terry stock icon here in Smashboards? It is invisible to me.
I know that there is a solution to this issue, but I forgot it.
Clear your cache. You should be able to do that in the settings of whatever browser you use :yoshi:
 

BlackInk

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
310
There are currently some other characters that needs more help.
I’m sick and tired of hearing this crap. This is not a real argument since it’s purposely looking away at legitimately garbage design in favor of garbage design that’s worse and even more difficult to fix. Olimar legitimately needs fixes patches ago on his sheild and it’s completely ignored but that’s somehow fine because Olimar is a viable character!? Screw that halfassed logic, it’s a legitimately poisonous mindset and it purposely avoids fixing crap that’ll be way easier to fix.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,250
While go to discussing buffs previous low tiers got in 6.0.0 and who are the bottom 5 now. The GF at Tri-State showdown was between the two top tiers that are many people wish were getting nerfed but did not. :ultjoker::ultpalutena:.

Palutena can possibly be top 5 but ado not think she is say.. Smash 4 Cloud of the game like some people are saying now (well other than having a very strong and overtuned nair)
 
Last edited:

BlackInk

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 16, 2019
Messages
310
While go to discussing buffs previous low tiers got in 6.0.0 and who are the bottom 5 now. A tournament went on whre the GF was with two top tiers that are currently. :ultjoker::ultpalutena:.

Okay Palutena can possibly be top 5 but ai do not think she is quite the Smash 4 Cloud of the game like many people are saying (well other than having a very strong and overtuned nair)
I don’t get why anyone has a problem with those two characters when they don’t have waft, stupid buries that kill way too early, or conquer the meta. Nairo just plays with really well with Palutena and understands how the characters work, and so does Leo and Tweek when they play joker.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,812
Location
United States of Russia
I've been wondering lately...

If I were to visit every single character page, would I see "Character X wins against :ultridley: " at least 90% of the time? Feels like respect for the character is at an all-time low. And I don't mean in the typical "he's not good" manner. More like in a semi-apathetic "no need to dwell on it" sort of way. Lack of prominent users don't help either, but the dragon just gets no real discussion.

But apparently he's still likely Mid Tier material. Definitely not high, but at least for some Low Tier is a bit extreme. Is it just that :ultridley: is too unappealing a character to attempt to elevate, outside of the few Ridley enthusiasts? A character that can be rewarding when the work is put in, but doesn't get that love because of so many other characters being easier to use while getting similar or better results?
:ultridley:'s advantage state is scary as hell. Nair is huge, he gets mid air jumps to keep pushing you back offstage and he can wall anyone super hard. For ledge trapping his Dsmash when timed properly covers every ledge get up option because he jumps up and slams both wings down with a huge attack that can potentially hop over get up attacks and punish them. Ridley can beat anyone if he outplays them a little.

The problem is he can also lose to anyone. Landing with him is terrible, he's a huge hurtbox that weighs less than Samus. His projectile can't really zone and is only good in advantage or across a large stage. So he gets zoned and juggled hard. Despite having a long recovery it only goes four directions and he can be gimped relatively easily too.

He's either wrecking you or you're wrecking him; there's no third direction.
 
Top