Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Spinosaurus

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I feel like this is significant

For reference, the average charge time in Street Fighter is around 45 frames. KoF is faster and while I don't have the numbers I believe it's in the 30's. This is really fast charge time for a really good move.
 
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It seems to be pretty quiet but there are quite a few top players reaching the conclusion that Jigglypuff was the big winner of this patch. As an ex Puff for 3 of the 5 smash games this brings me excitement and I look forward to seeing how she fares in the meta now. Swords will persist in being an issue, but she's definitely gaining a new lease on life.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Before 6.0.0 Robin was actullay seeing some pretty decent resutls as of late thanks to Jul and other naes that escape me right now.
Now with these good buffs I can see possible breakthoughs in resulta upcoming tournaments.

:ultmarth: now looking like the " 2nd worst" FE character im the game now.
 
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SwagGuy99

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I feel like that :ultdoc: is going to keep falling on the tier lists as characters worse than him keep getting buffed. I think that he was a low mid tier before this patch, but that there's a high chance that he could be a high low tier now.

As a :ultdoc: secondary, I feel like he needs only a few individual changes to buff him.

  • Buff his air speed. A lot. In Melee, one of his gimmicks was that he had a faster max air speed than Mario. If they were to bring that back here, that would buff his onstage game, his pills, his approach, and his recovery without directly addressing any individual moves.
  • Increase his air acceleration a bit as well. I'm fine with him taking a little bit for him to reach his max air speed, but buffing this is very helpful for him.
  • Either give f-air less landing lag, more power, or give it a bigger hitbox. The point of :ultdoc: f-air is to be more rewarding than Mario's, but it really isn't since it doesn't spike.
  • Make his reflector stall him in the air once, like in Melee. Self explanatory change that buffs his recovery just a slight bit more.
  • Either increase the active frames of d-air's sweetspot, or increase the hitbox. This move is Doc's only meteor smash but it's so hard to land offstage. Why???

And that's it. Those are the only changes that he needs to be good, and I really only think he needs an air speed buff to take him out of potential low tier range. His weight could also use an increase but I really don't think it's necessary. Make it happen Nintendo.

Edit: Leon also posted a new Bowser matchup chart to Twitter today:



More or less what I would expect overall, with a few exceptions (some of which I agree with, some I don't).

Characters that aren't where I would expect them to be are :ultbowserjr::ultluigi::ultchrom::ultganondorf::ultpacman::ultroy::ultlucas::ultpit: although I agree with :ultbowserjr: and :ultluigi: being -1 matchups.
 
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I feel like that :ultdoc: is going to keep falling on the tier lists as characters worse than him keep getting buffed. I think that he was a low mid tier before this patch, but that there's a high chance that he could be a high low tier now.

As a :ultdoc: secondary, I feel like he needs only a few individual changes to buff him.

  • Buff his air speed. A lot. In Melee, one of his gimmicks was that he had a faster max air speed than Mario. If they were to bring that back here, that would buff his onstage game, his pills, his approach, and his recovery without directly addressing any individual moves.
  • Increase his air acceleration a bit as well. I'm fine with him taking a little bit for him to reach his max air speed, but buffing this is very helpful for him,
  • Either give f-air less landing lag, more power, or give it a bigger hitbox. The point of :ultdoc: f-air is to be more rewarding than Mario's, but it really isn't since it doesn't spike.
  • Make his reflector stall him in the air once, like in Melee. Self explanatory change that buffs his recovery just a slight bit more.
  • Either increase the active frames of d-air's sweetspot, or increase the hitbox. This move is Doc's only meteor smash but it's so hard to land offstage. Why???

And that's it. Those are the only changes that he needs to be good, and I really only think he needs an air speed buff to take him out of potential low tier range. His weight could also use an increase but I really don't think it's necessary. Make it happen Nintendo.
Melee trophy bio implies Doc's higher airspeed was completely unintentional. As were a lot of things in Melee due to being a rush job.
 
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Flowen231

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while he's using his up B his legs are entirely invincible, so you can't really poke him from above when he's trying to grab the ledge, o I don't think he suffers more than most characters when recovering
also, his up B can be charged even while soft holding down (as to not fastfall), so theoretically you could be totally invincible on your way up (aside from the 2 frames while ledge snapping) ("soft holding" can also be used to charge up B while holding shield or while standing still/walking without crouching)
Not completely. The invincibility of Terry's up B goes away 10 frames before the 2 frame window and 7 frames with a charge up B. Depending on which terry does his 2 frame is actually a 12 frame or a 9 frame.

I think Terry could be as low as mid tier as a result, simply because most of the best characters have a really easy time ledge trapping, and Terry is going to get "2 framed" hard before he even gets there whenever he goes into disadvantage.
 
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SwagGuy99

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Veto. Doc SH cape is a national treasure and should be protected under federal law.
LOL

On an unrelated note, it's just occurring to me now that buffing :ultkirby: and :ultjigglypuff: in this patch is actually pretty bad for :ultfalcon:as he already could struggle against them sometimes and this patch makes those matchups even more challenging for Falcon with Kirby's improved edgeguarding and juggling and with Puff's improved combos.

Things aren't looking too bright for :ultfalcon: despite having some decent results. Fatality's lack of trust in his character, the fact that the buffs to other characters are indirectly making him worse, and the fact that he is consistently ignored in the patches (in terms of direct buffs) are actually starting to make me think he could potentially be a low tier in the future.
 
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The_Bookworm

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LOL

On an unrelated note, it's just occurring to me now that buffing :ultkirby: and :ultjigglypuff: in this patch is actually pretty bad for :ultfalcon:as he already could struggle against them sometimes and this patch makes those matchups even more challenging for Falcon with Kirby's improved edgeguarding and juggling and with Puff's improved combos.

Things aren't looking too bright for :ultfalcon: despite having some decent results. Fatality's lack of trust in his character, the fact that the buffs to other characters are indirectly making him worse, and the fact that he is consistently ignored in the patches (in terms of direct buffs) are actually starting to make me think he could potentially be a low tier in the future.
Kind of jumping the gun with "low tier in the future". The character still gets some pretty good results and I don't really see it change that much in the future. Getting indirectly nerfed due to other characters getting improvements is only really a problem if the character that got buffed rises above him in the tier list, which I doubt any of the buffed characters will.

Considering that Puff and Kirby are still going to be rare characters regardless of these buffs, I kind of doubt that their buffs really impacts Falcon's stance that much, if not at all.


PS: Can someone help me solve the invisible stock icon Terry thing? I know that I once learned how to do it, but I forgot how.
 

Thinkaman

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But seriously, Doc SH Cape is one of the best tools unique to him. Because it retains aerial movement and perfectly matches the duration of his short hop, he is the only character in the game who can aggressively move forward while reflecting projectiles. (Short of Hero having Bounce up.)

It's a quick, 35 frame manuever (that is exempt from even normal landing lag!) with a respectable hitbox. Properly intercepting a non-SHAC aerial will result in the opponent still getting landing lag, while you are landing with not just 2 or 4, but ZERO. And if you catch a projectile, like a Thundershock? You are landing next to them while it hits them in the face. Even Falco's Reflector is jealous.

Mario can't do this. No one can do this. Bonus points because people always seem a little surprised by it and may attempt unwise "punishes"--no one expects Doc of all people to have such a quick and elegant neutral option.
 

Big O

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Only 3 things really bug me about Doc. Mario's cape has way better hitboxes than Doc's for whatever reason. His dash attack goes nowhere. His recovery is already bad enough, so why does getting hit not refresh Down B's mashable height boost?
 

LightKnight

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I've heard so little of :ultmetaknight: that I'm not really sure what peoples opinion on him at this point is. The main person I saw play him was from Japan but he plays others too like Inkling so I'm sure that he doesn't play :ultmetaknight: anymore. The character seems to be in a pretty similar camp as Bayo, a shadow of their former glory days, lol.
I suppose most think of him as a mid-tier? Seeing as he's never mentioned when discussing low-tiers. Curious what the current opinions on him are and what general buffs he should receive, if any.
 

Xfire

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:ultmetaknight: is such in a weird place atm. To me, he feels like a character that requires precise strings and reads to capitalize rewards, but the degree of rewards is low. Heavies can get wrecked by his long up-air/down-air strings ending with a tornado special and floaties risk getting caught in his dangerous finishers during his rising strings, but they all require precise placement of attacks to do them in the first place. They're also character dependent, and most of the time he cannot get into the opponent's space reliably; he's got to commit his attacks and approach options. Most of his attacks last only 1 frame, and his disjoint is not as big as you thought, so he could have trouble approaching against zoners and swordies.

I'd hover him between low-mid to mid-mid. He's harder to play in this faster game engine, and while he does have reward, it's merely pale compared to the other cast, even those who are lower than him.
 

Rizen

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Edit: Leon also posted a new Bowser matchup chart to Twitter today:



More or less what I would expect overall, with a few exceptions (some of which I agree with, some I don't).

Characters that aren't where I would expect them to be are :ultbowserjr::ultluigi::ultchrom::ultganondorf::ultpacman::ultroy::ultlucas::ultpit: although I agree with :ultbowserjr: and :ultluigi: being -1 matchups.
I agree :ultyounglink:'s a bad MU for :ultbowser:. I played this today and destroyed the guy. YL doesn't care about the things that make Bowser really good. YL throws projectiles at his shield so OoS doesn't help. YL's Uair beats Bowser's Dair/bomb with long lasting hit bubbles, except that weird case when it didn't, dumb janky hitbubbles. YL will almost never have to jab and when he does he can not go into rapid jab so tough guy doesn't help. YL's Dair can bounce on Bowser's fire breath. And in general Bowser's the biggest hurtbox in the game with no burst options. YL just has to not commit and Bowser has a terrible time chasing him down.

"But Rizen you said :ultdk:'s an even MU for YL, what gives?" Well I just played this on Tuesday and still think that. The big reasons why in my unpopular opinion DK does better are he has the frame data to out box YL, he's faster than Bowser in the air slightly and because YL's unique tools this helps his get out of disadvantage better and he can wreck YL offstage by chaining aerials or spiking him. The frame data's a big thing. If DK wants to Uair YL it's f6 where Bowser's is f9. DK's Bair is f7 and bowser's Fair and Bair are f11 and 9. If you're chasing down YL trying to poke him this can make a difference. DK can out button YL on the ground with a f5 jab where Bowser's f7 jab is one frame slower than YL's. DK also has less lag on most of his moves. DK has a faster scarier advantage state and that's all superheavies have vs YL. DK's recovery has disjoint that screws up YL's Nair and Bowser's recovery loses to it.

It's all a matter of character tool interactions.

I got some quality time playing against Terry but I'll type that up tomorrow when it's not midnight.
 
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Well Doc is getting some attention, my time to shine!
I feel like that :ultdoc: is going to keep falling on the tier lists as characters worse than him keep getting buffed. I think that he was a low mid tier before this patch, but that there's a high chance that he could be a high low tier now.
Yeah, you basically summed it up.

He's got the tools to be great character, yet he can't exactly get around to show it. It doesn't help that he's been declined a boost in mobility when nearly everyone else got one from the transition to Ultimate.

I don't agree with making his cape stall.
Unless it pushes him forward, it won't help him recover, plus it would nerf his landing mix-ups via B-Reversing & Wave-Bouncing.

Though, I guess if you want my opinion on how to buff him (However I don't wanna derail this thread into a "buff my main" discussion)
Stats:
-Walk Speed: 0.917 to 1.04 (Between Gunner's and Banjo's)
-Initial Dash: 1.53 to 1.73 (Same as the Belmonts)
-Run Speed: 1.39 to 1.52 (Same as the Belmonts)
-Air Speed: 0.92 to 1.0 (Same as Plant's)
-Air Acceleration: 0.061 to 0.08 (Same as Mario's)
-Weight: 98 to 103 (Same as Ryu and Ken's)

Reasons:
Just a enough of a speed buff to help while still fitting his design. It'd also help to be an actual heavyweight.


Attacks:

-Up-Smash, N-Air, B-Air, Up-Air, D-Air & Up-B are no longer unsafe on hit at low percents.
-F-Tilt: KBG 70 to 82
-F-Throw: KGB 60 to 77
-F-Smash & F-Air have their sour-hits made to match the sweet-hits.
-Grounded Tornado has full super armor rather then the 10% damage based one he has now.
-He get's the ability to rise with Tornado after getting hit. (Same as Ryu and Ken's Side-B's)

Reasons:
-Unsafe moves are obviously a bad thing. (It doesn't help that these are all of his Out-of-Shield options, minus grab)
-F-Tilt and F-Throw are very weak kill moves and it just makes sense to have them stronger for his archetype.
-His F-Smash has less range then Mario's and Doc F-Air doesn't spike. On top of being slower, it only works that he get's full reward for landing them.

-Grounded Tornado is very committal as is and you still take full damage when armoring the move while being open to grabs, so it's not quite as crazy as Luigi's.

I'd also take another damage buff on his whole kit if a mobility buff is out of the question.
 
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Apparently they stealth-nerfed Ness's yo-yo (FOW did confirm this in the following Tweets):
 
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NotLiquid

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Apparently they stealth-nerfed Ness's yo-yo (FOW did confirm this in the following Tweets):
This is bait
 

DunnoBro

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Instead of just retaining height after getting hit, I think doc should also be able to refresh Cyclone with a jump. Giving him effectively an extra cyclone's height to work with.

You COULD change the height overall, but this would cause issues with confirms into cyclone.

This would enable an overall greater range of mix-ups. Able to either go SUPER deep, or SUPER high to take advantage of his super fun and interesting landing options with dair/cyclone/falling cape and pill harassment. Since he'd have no dj, it'd still be a commitment, but one I think is necessary as currently, you can often edgeguard doc purely on reaction due to just this total lack of options and range of mobility offstage.

Like, as it is he can barely even run-off cape/dair/fair, and trading/losing/missing with run-off cyclone can spell death. His lack of vertical movement feels like it just disallows you from playing the character sometimes.

Also, if they straight refuse to buff his mobility, they should buff cape. The reflect hitbox is currently a frame slower than marios. It does retain momentum so it's better at reading projectiles earlier (even lingers 2 frames longer) but i think it should just be straight superior as a reflector.
 
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TimG57867

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Ah been a while since an update gave our lovable puff :ultkirby: a ton of touchups and I can easily say this patch has given him the biggest improvements. I wanted to wait a bit for me and our labbing squad to properly test out and assess all the improvements and I think I now ready to list them out and their implications for Kirby. Here's a rundown of his direct changes (His versions of neutral Bs get buffed alongside other characters so he pretty always gets some kind of change):

1. Up Smash's Early Tipper Hit Has Had its KB buffed.

It was well documented that 3.0 changed Up Smash so that the strong hit lasts from Frames 12-14 instead of just frame 12, making it an actual anti-air. However, it didn't do anything regarding weaker tipper hit the move has throughout the entire attack. In 5.0, the tip of the foot of Up Smash for the early strong hit had a BKB of 30 and a KBG 99. This made it kill about 20% later than the inner hit which could be rather annoying if you hit a foe really high above you or didn't dash in enough. But now, while it still does less %, it's BKB and KBG have been buffed to match the inner hit with values of 36 and 104 respectively. This effectively makes it kill about 12% sooner cutting the gap by about half. Easily the most modest change Kirby got but quite appreciated regardless. Now mispacing it less punishing and you can kill more often if you anti air with it at its zenith.

2. Jab startup is Frame 2 down from Frame 3

A one buff quickly found. Believe it or not, Kirby's Jab was widely agreed by us to be his worst move (and heck it probably still is). Puny hitbox, awful rapid jab damage, mixup combo potential was taken out like most Jab 1 and 2s, mega punishable on shield, barely quicker than the infinitely better D Tilt, etc. For the most part its niche was getting you Jab locks when D Tilt stopped locking. Now with this change, it hasn't skyrocketed up the ranks of Kirby's moveset, but it no longer is atmospheric levels below the rest of the kit. In the few niches it has, it performs better. Less startup means tech chasing with it is even smoother. You'll hit miss techs sooner and be able to follow them quicker. The reduced startup now gives Kirby a 100% true followup out of his D-Air on most of the roster with the exceptions of Ganondorf and all the superheavies heavier than him. Being Frame 2 now improves its abilty to cover standard getup. And probably most notably, it now has enough of a startup advantage over D-Tilt (which crouches Kirby frame 1 by the way) to be worth using when Kirby needs to mash a button out. Most notable when he's in a clank situation with characters like :ultluigi: that had quicker Jabs. Now he can at least stalemate them. And the Jabs of the 2 characters with Frame 1 Jabs (:ultzss::ultlittlemac:) are crouched so Kirby can D Tilt against them. This isnt a crazy buff but it helps Jab stand out that little bit more from his incredible Tilts that mostly invalidated its existence pre-patch.

3. N-Air Startup is now Frame 8 and with Increased KB

Finally the big changes! Definitely a strong contentder for the biggest he got. Pre-Patch N-Air filled a very key role in Kirby's kit as being his most reliable option in disadvantage, best means of getting through projectiles, a key shield pressure tool being -2 at best, and offering a lot of combo potential. (Far more reliably than his overrated D-Air I might add). It got a KBG buff going into Ultimate and between the game switch and 3.0 got its dreadful FAF of 73 taken down to a far more reasonable 55. But despite how good it was, it still felt lacking and that memetic Frame 10 startup was definitely the elephant in the room. Being Frame 10 made it a lot harder to use in disadvantage than it should be. Both in the air and OOS shield. It also held back the edgeguarding potential the FAF buffs otherwise could bestowed it.

But at long last, after being glossed over for several games and most Ult patches, it FINALLY got a startup buff! It's now Frame 8. That decrease when typed out doesn't sound crazy, but believe me when I say it impacts a ton! For one thing, the startup buff now gives Kirby 1 of 2 new routes (the other I'll get into later) to combo via F-Throw on Battlefield height platforms. Next up, it's made N-Air a respectable OOS option. It had its spots before but the startup often made it not worth it. But coming out 2 frames sooner now lets it punish so much more stuff then before (especially given how imperfectly most moves are done on shield). And N-Air becoming Frame 11 OOS is key because it not only can come out faster and more safely than his Frame 12 Up Smash, but it covers all around Kirby to catch crossups so much better. Before Kirby would have to choose between his speedy B-Air and slower F-Air or stubby grab. N-Air now stands as a new more reliable midground. Being quicker only improves its case when you're in disadvantage and the startup buff has made it far more effective off stage! So much easier to time and easier to use multiple times with floats thanks to the simultaneous FAF reduction that actually makes it less laggy offstage than D-Air with an FAF of 53.

All this is so appreciated but in my power I would have preferred it to be made even faster. Something in the Frame 3-6 ballpark...had they not also juiced up its KB! They increased the KBG from 100 -> 117. That combined with its high BKB means it now can kill not much later than Kirby's B-Air! Throw this fact in with all the new boons I mentioned and now N-Air has ascended to the upper echelons of Kirby's kit. Not only is it quicker OOS and in disadvantage but you can outright kill people with it more reliably now too! Particularly near ledge. For perspective, with good DI Mario now dies 151% which is down from 185% and by ledge if not DI'd right he could die as early as 103%! This is has now made it utterly fearsome on ledge and off stage and while also making a potential new kill setup option. We need to do our customary testing but, Weak Up Tilt -> Full DJ N-Air is looking to have potential to kill near ledge. Kirby could do something similar with B-Air pre-patch but having to turn for it and the slightly lower height kept it from becoming meta. Perhaps N-Air can pick up the mantle there. In any case, Kirby's N-Air is now the real deal and possibly is best buff this patch.

4. U-Air Startup is now Frame 8 and does 10% base up from 9 while having more KB

The other major change to Kirby's aerials that's getting oodles of hype, Up Air has been changed in ways not too unlike N-Air and its improvements arguably mend more critical areas! Now N-Air despite lacking a bit still filled major roles for Kirby's kill. Up Air sadly couldn't say as much. For the longest time Up Air basically had all the flaws of flip kick Up Airs and few of the benefits. It lacked the KB to kill outright like say ZSS's Up-Air, but it had too much endlag to link into itself like :ultmario:'s. This left in that crummy no man's land of being too slow to combo but too weak to kill, thus leaving it as one of the weakest Up-Airs in the game. This has been a major issue for Kirby for a long time because it exaceraberated his issue with threatening people right above his air space that would already be a character weakness just cause of his ground jump height. Opponents could be sittting well over 150% and an Up Air still might not kill them unless you hit them at the very top of the screen after expending multiple floats and even then it might not be a sure kill. This is a big part of why Kirby mains have to auto strike triplat maps as they make it even easier to exploit this weakness of Kirby's. Sure his Up Smash got fixed but it's not like it can hit people bounding over him. This is also put a ton of strain on B-Air as his only reliable killing aerial against foes air camping.

But at last this patch has rectified that! Like N-Air, Up-Air got a double whammy of having its memetic Frame 10 startup reduced to Frame 8 and got a KB boost. Only Up Air's isn't owed solely to KBG changes. Along with getting it 108 KBG increase to 115, it also got a base damage increase from 9 to 10 to match his N-Air. These have combined to let Up-Air effectively kill about 30% sooner than it used to! For the first time since ironically Melee, being right above Kirby...is actually a risky prospect. With this new Up-Air Kirby can kill Mario standing on the top Battlefield platform as early as 136% which he can reach with a full DJ. Pre Buff this wasn't possible until 163%. This vastly improves his juggle game and overall advantage state and now the subtle tech we had of using multiple floats to corner someone in air is actually worth doing! And trades with Up Air are finally worth it.

And as I am also sure a lot of you also know by now, this as greatly aided it and N-Air's combo utility in a lot of ways too. It and N-Air FINALLY give him combo potential under low platforms which I'm sure you've seen in Twitter clips by now. The quicker starterup allows you to hit them off strong Up Tilt much sooner. With Up AIr you can now do reverse one in a shortup and ascend again for another aerial before touching the ground which aids Rev Up-Air And like N-Air, Up-Air, which was inches from doing this at much later % pre-patch, can now kill confirm off an Up Tilt on a lot of the cast. Only unless N-AIr Up Air has a chance to do this off strong Up Tilt as well as weak Up Tilt if you get a platform assist. Allows you to kill easily about 10-20% than if you did it off the ground.

It's 100% good news for the Up-Air and N-Air buffs buecasue they did mess a bit with some specific low percent combos before. Particularly ones you do with characters you can't F Throw F-Air at 0 but honestly the benefits more than outweigh those minor inconvenieces.

5. Inhale Startup is Now Frame 10

Another massive change this buff and one a lot of us have been hoping for ever since it was buffed a bit in SSB4. Kirby's Inhale is not only his X factor but it defines him as a character. But various things have ailed it for the longest time, not the least of which are its startup and hitbox size which make it much harder to land than it ought to be. In SSB4 Up Tilt -> Inhale was a reliable setup for it, but Up Tilt got KB changes which reduced the effectiveness. You now had to jump to get it even at low % and even then it was janky. And it startup means the windbox often doesn't kick until they've leaped away.

But with this patch these 2 issues have been nailed with a single Stone. Inhale got a massive startup buff reduction from Frame 14 to Frame 10! That just makes it couple frames slower than :ultwario:'s Chomp for perspective. And you might ask, how does this compensate for the hitbox size? Because, now that it's 4 frames faster, the windbox suction kicks in 4 frames faster as well which means foes now get pulled into range of the grab box much sooner than before. Enough that the small size isn't as glaring an issue.

This is a major buff (which is complimented by the last one I'll get to in a bit) because not only does it make getting raw Inhales infinitely easier but it also lets Kirby call out shields from above much easier, boosts its ledge trap and edgeguarding potential a ton, and drastically boosted the effectiveness of all his Inhale setups (aside from landing N-Air but that's cause of N-Air's KB buff and even thene it still works at low enough % for the strong hit and likely can work for the weak hit now). With the 4 frame boost, Up Tilt Inhale is back to its former glory and now F-Air 1 Inhale is way more practical. From what I've been told he can now F-Air 1 tipper into Dash Inhale too.

Inhale been a move even the best of Kirbies have been rather weary to use for the longest time. (Seriously I don't think I've seen Komota use it on stream once in Ultimate). But now, it's finally something Kirby's can feel fully confident in throwing out. This along with the next change I'll discuss will greatly aid him in matchups Copy Ability is vital.

6. The Copy Keep time and Drop RNG have been Buffed Once More!

Because of the terrible wording, most probably don't know what that whole "Harder to Interupt his Copy Abililty" lingo means. Well thanks to miners from before and now, I can divulge just what as been changed. Kirby essentially got the same type of buff to this that he got in 3.0 but even more. 3.0 increased the time Kirby can't drop an ability from 5 to 10 seconds. This was nice but I felt it was a hair too short. But the fittingly numbered 6.0 has doubled down on this increased that time from 10 to 20 seconds. That is actually a very nice window of time to be guarenteed to not drop a power. It's a 1/3 of a minute which more than enough to change the course of a matchup. It gives the Kirby player more time to establish their stage presence after landing it, escape a disadvantage state if they are hit afterward, ensure they get a setup off before it could be loss, etc. It's now something we can play around.

The other improvement was to the drop rate. Meshima found that our drop in 3.0 used a formula similar to Item Dropping and was calculated as 1.3( Attack % / 70). 3.0 reduced the multiplier from 1.3 to 1. This was good but it could have been better. Now 6.0 has come in reduced the multiplier once more from 1 to .7. What this effectively done has canceled out the 70 so now the damage you are dealt IS the drop rate. For perspective, in the vanilla game, a 10% attack was 18% drop rate. In 3.0 it became a 14% drop rate. And now it's 10% drop rate! This almost makes copies dropped half as often as they were on launch. Combined with the timer buff, this has DRASTICALLY improved Copy Ability retention. Now playing full stocks with stolen powers is so much more feasible. Kirby gets Copies more often and keeps them much longer.

Between these 2 changes I can legitimately called his Neutral B a good move! The only real issue it has a this point is that auto swallowing projectiles still leaves you as a sitting duck. Hopefully they amend that later but with all the other improvements Inhale is legitmately great in spite of that.



That about sums up the changes. This patch is easily the biggest one Kirby has gotten in Ultimate and blows 90% of his SSB4 patches out of the water. Many core issues Kirby's been plagued by for several GAMES have finally been address and/or chipped away at. Now of course these improvments don't straight up fix Kirby's weakness against camping. But honestly that wasn't even his core problem. A bunch of characters like :ultluigi::ultken::ultryu: get camped a a good bit but are still threatening. It was really that the payofff for overcoming this at Kirby just wasn't consistently good enough. But for the first time in ages, this as finally been gnawed away at. Kirby now has new answer to foes camping above him, 2 new kill aerials that have good potential to kill raw on the fly (N-Air in particular) and massively free his B-Air up, and he finally consistently apply his Copy Ability in battle which usually tends to be his answer to camping in many matchups like :ultsamus:.

Now you might be wondering what I think of his prospects now. If I had to give MY opinion I (and most other Kirbies) now agree if he was bottom tier before he's firmly out of it now. As for where he falls now, I optimiscally put him in the lower half of mid tier and pessimistcally at the top of low tier. These changes have actually addressed issues hurting his viabilty and have universally improved his MU spread. The rough MUs are less painful and his anti-meta MUs have become more efficient and he likely goes even or better with more characters now. Of course this is an early impression. Will have to wait and see how the playerbase performs. Although I will say that it's definitely the happiest I've seen a lot of my fellow poyos in a long time with even some of our most pessimistic of users or former players showing excitement. (It's even gotten MikeKirby interested again!). Now obviously from my take, you should be able to tell Kirby ain't perfect yet. He still has some glaring problems I would ideally like addressed such as Up Throw being a tad too weak, Up Air still being too laggy, Final Cutter still being too slow, Stone not hitting shields twice, etc. But I can confidently call him FAR more capable than he was before and I have high hopes for his best users like Supergirl Kels, RK, Jesuischoq, Komota, etc. doing better with him.

This update has defintiely shaken up Kirby's meta and all for the better and I am looking forward to all the optimizations to be made now.
 

Sean²

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Personally I think Kirby's buffs are nice, but none of them fix his real issues. Swords and good projectiles still douse him unless he steals a good projectile ability, but then you're just fighting fire with fire. He's still doesn't have a great approach option and is still fairly slow. Crouch is his best move.

I really like Kirby, but watching him try to deal with any one of the multitude of meta-relevant swordfighters hurts a lot.
 

SapphSabre777

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Personally I think Kirby's buffs are nice, but none of them fix his real issues. Swords and good projectiles still douse him unless he steals a good projectile ability, but then you're just fighting fire with fire. He's still doesn't have a great approach option and is still fairly slow. Crouch is his best move.

I really like Kirby, but watching him try to deal with any one of the multitude of meta-relevant swordfighters hurts a lot.
Kirby actually fairs decently against swords thanks to his combination of grounded frame data (being almost as fast as Young Link on the ground is nothing to scoff at, and those tilts will outbutton aerials coming out after whiffing) when he gets in range and his small size. It's a matter of getting positioned and capitalizing off of misspacing and miscues with his small size and decent run speed. Considering a Kirby (Brother Quang) managed to take a set off of Mr. E (2-1, he played Lucina) recently before the patch dropped and that players like RK, Jesuischoq, and SGK state some MUs like Chrom and Roy, amongst others, are some that are actually quite decent (some even saying we win one of the two), swords aren't the issue: it's disjoints attached to absolutely gigantic moves (think M2's tilts or DK's).

Many Kirbys will say that his real issue is more toward projectiles thanks to the option of "airing it out" not being all that good thanks to his air speed being so low and being forced to play the slow game where he is lacking with approach options. Snake, the Links, the Samuses all give Kirby issues because of how it forces him to dance around the endless sea of projectiles, which leads to a misconception when Kirby gets those projectiles themselves: while he can use them in the same way, he has to also play them in accordance with his own kit, especially with the multiplier in his Copy Abilities now. Kirby with Snake's Grenades is a good example of this, as with the ability he can turn into an air raid with his multiple jumps in tow while holding Grenades, and the same techs for Snake apply to Kirby (especially Instant Grenade Grabs). Him getting a projectile is one thing, using it effectively is more complicated thanks to differences in properties between him and his opponent.

While Kirby has a fair bit of issues still, at this rate players are learning to minimize a character's weaknesses while maximizing their strengths. Only time can tell on this, but this patch gives a good bit of optimism for the character considering it strongly mitigated some of his more glaring flaws, as mentioned by Tim.
 

boysilver400

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Kirby definitely still has approaching issues, but he also struggled to kill quite a bit. He mostly had to fish for down tilt kills but that move rarely trips and past 100% it doesn’t trip at all. So then, he had to fish for fair 1 to fsmash, but it’s frame 10 and doesn’t have much range.

With Uair and Nair buffs, it gives him a better kill option from above and more edgeguard options respectively. Still probably not the best at killing but it’s definitely an improvement.
 
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Kirby definitely still has approaching issues, but he also struggled to kill quite a bit. He mostly had to fish for down tilt kills but that move rarely trips and past 100% it doesn’t trip at all. So then, he had to fish for fair 1 to fsmash, but it’s frame 10 and doesn’t have much range.

With Uair and Nair buffs, it gives him a better kill option from above and more edgeguard options respectively. Still probably not the best at killing but it’s definitely an improvement.
It should bump him up from bottom to low tier at the very least.
And Kirby is actual fun to play now which makes me very happy. I had him in my pockets all the time but wasn't the character I'd ever go for in an actual match, not even online (well, I only played online so far. Should go to an actualy tourney one day). That changed now.

Still looking forward whether Jesuischoq (French Kirby player) and Komota can achieve better results now as well.
 
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Watched a lot of videos and lot of new tech before I gave my full thoughts on :ultkirby:'s buffs. After what I've seen/witnessed, I can safely say I'm very happy with the buffs given to Kirby this patch. These buffs don't make Kirby an instant top tier or any of that kind of silliness (I'm trying to be realistic here), but this patch - to me - understood Kirby's issues and how to address them far more than any patch has so far. There were seeds of it in 2.0.0 and 3.0.0 with things like the FTilt buff, but this 6.0.0 was right on the money in terms of giving Kirby what he needed.

One of my biggest issues with Kirby previously is that on top of having such poor air mobility, he also had really terrible versions of other characters' attacks. Neutral aerial had at least 3-7 frames more start-up than most other sex kicks while not even being one of the stronger ones (why were :ultyoshi: and :ultlink:s stronger than it again?). Up aerial had 3-7 frames more start-up than most flip kicks yet had none of the combo ability of other flip kicks or even any real power (pretty much the only thing it had over other up aerials was that it hit behind better). Rapid jab was frame 3 yet did half the damage of rapid jabs of similar speed like :ultfox::ultfalco: or :ultinkling:. Inhale had nearly twice the start-up of other command grabs like :ultwario: or :ultbowser:s. Up smash was on the slower end of flip kick up smashes, but on top of that, also had a sourspot which kind of goes against the purpose of it being an up smash (it's meant to be an anti-air option yet is only more effective when the opponent is closer to you...?).

But what I like most about this patch is that it forces people to RESPECT KIRBY MORE. Players have to be more wary on platforms above Kirby because now, sharking with USmash is actually kinda legit. Players have to be more wary about touching Kirby's shield because now, NAir is a decent OoS with quite a bit of meat behind it. People have to be more wary about air camping against Kirby now because not only does Uair juggle worth a crud now, both Nair and Uair have the frame data to challenge most moves alongside some spicy kill power to boot. People have to be more wary about shielding against Kirby because Inhale actually has half-decent start-up now. See where I'm going on with this?

If you want Kirby to have the mobility of a heavyweight, go right ahead (bad air speed runs in his genes after all), but at the very least you could give him a another effective aerial to justify his bad air speed (one that's NOT frame 10 or more). And that's exactly what they did this time.


Now does this fix all of Kirby's issues? As much as I want to say yes.... eerrr, not really. While frame data buffs sort of mitigates the FThrow-below-platforms issue, it still doesn't work against half the cast and the other half it does work against is at extremely tight percentages (unless it's like :ult_terry: or something). FAir still has issues connecting into the second hit properly sometimes, and he still gets lamed out pretty easily by projectiles. I'm not sure how much the Inhale buff helps with that issue; based on how much it's been massively improved via patch updates (5 to 20 seconds, 1.3x multiplier down to 0.7x), the devs are really looking to make it an integral part of Kirby's toolkit.

Where does this leave Kirby in terms of tier list placements and the like? I... have no clue. I feel a lot of player's influence in that is chalked up to whether or not there's people out there willing to represent the pink puffball (thankfully there is thanks to RK, Jesuischoq, and Komota). Only time will tell were Kirby ends up in the future, but I am cautiously optimistic about where he's headed.
 
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Oh goodie, now I have to worry about fighting :ultkirby:. :p


Joking aside, I'm really glad that these characters are getting their time in the sun.
IMO, the biggest change to this patch was leaving:ultlittlemac: in bottom tier.
Everyone else is more capable of pulling their weight, which don't look good for Mac baby.
 

TimG57867

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Aug 27, 2015
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Yes it really needs to be emphasized getting outranged or struggling with projectiles, while notable character weaknesses of Kirby's (and as Sapph said projectiles are the more glaring of the 2 for Kirby), are not the things that have tarnished his viability for so long. The only reason they SEEM to be his main issues is that his payoff for overcoming those issues wasn't enough to make up the difference.

You need not look any than :ultpeach::ultdaisy: to understand what I mean. Aside from a slightly better jump height and the unique tool in float, there mobility in most aspects either matches Kirby's or in cases like ground speed is straight up worse. And the characters well documented to have the best matchups against them generally sport pretty big disjoints like :ultshulk: or rough zoning games like :ultpacman:. Sure they got Turnip pull, but it can only get ya so far, especially after their nerf. And yet they're currently sitting pretty at #6 on the OrionStats. Why? Simple. While disjoints and projectiles are annoying for them, should the player actually overcome those issues and get in, the reward they get is MASSIVE. On a large portion of the cast I see top Peaches regularly get 50+% conversions and push advantage state super hard. When Samsora finally deals with the zoning or the swords, he consistently takes stocks. Their issues with camping don't make them unviable because the reward they get for entering advantage state more than makes up for this. Many other characters similarly have issues with getting zoned at times but because they're advantage states are so good and their moves are so reliable, their players are able to make up for it.

This is what has really ailed Kirby for so long. A Kirby who understood neutral could get around the big swords or navigate the projectile bullet hells. But when they actually did that...what was the payoff? Hitting an Up Air that would never kill and couldn't link itself? Hitting Up Tilt but often not being able to capitalize well cause moves were so slow? Getting a Copy on that lovely ability but losing it in a heartbeat? This is where the issue lied. Moves not working consistently and not getting the reward you deserved for dealing with that camping.

We need to face facts. The devs are never gonna make Kirby outright GOOD against camping. I could see air speed and ground speed buffs being a possibility and the right ones would further help Kirby's advantage state, but any increase we could expect Kirby to get will never be massive enough to just negate the camping issue. They're not gonna make him dart as fast as :ultfox: and they are not gonna let him zoom through the air like :ultyoshi:. And as much as I want Final Cutter sped up they're not gonna let Kirby just send out shockwaves quickly enough that he can outcamp you. And you know what? They don't have too.

They just have to keep doing more of what they finally gave Kirby in this patch. As KirbySquad101 KirbySquad101 put it, make camping not a luxury against Kirby but a necessity. Make Kirby's moves strong and consistent enough that the foe truly pays for letting him in. Most of the changes I still want for him aim in that direction letting Kirby get more bang for his buck when he finally overcomes the camping. What makes this patch so good is that things like Copy Abilities sticking better and U-Air getting so much stronger are things that address how little you were rewarded for winning neutral as Kirby compared to say :ultluigi:. Kirby's a bait and punish half grappler. He's not meant to have a straightforward approach. But if the reward for figuring it out is good enough, that really isn't a big problem. Especially as his mobility (namely ground speed) is underrated as is.
 

bc1910

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Others have already caught on to the most important thing about Terry at this stage (which I had a bumper post written on but I won’t bore you with now). He is not a Ken/Ryu/Luigi, he is a whiff punisher. He has among the best whiff punishing tools in the game and has a seriously good midrange game. His close range is still amongst the best despite not being at the level of the 3 aforementioned characters, so he is likely to outreward you up close even if you do get past his excellent midrange. He will have trouble with heavy zoners (Snake, MM, ROB), certain swordies (Chrom, Shulk), and better whiff punishers (Greninja, Fox, probably ZSS). Terry is certainly a strong character; it says a lot when all his problematic MUs are arguable top tiers.

I would rather direct my attention to Jigglypuff.

She is terrifying now.

Dair has the skewed risk/reward of a top tier option regardless of whether it is autocancelled or she lands with it. It’s an incredibly good button when autocancelled and the potency of a viable rest combo of course cannot be overstated.

I would easily call her in the top half of the cast at this point. She still has massive weaknesses which keep her out of top tier, but high tier could well be within her grasp.
 

FruitLoop

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I think we should talk a bit about one of our less talked about but still quite unfortunate soul known as :ultkingdedede: in today's meta, especially since a lot of characters below him got buffs. :ultkingdedede:is a strong contender for bottom 10 in patch 6.0.0 and honestly I just cannot give a convincing case to get this character out of low tier, call me pessimistic if you want but I really just don't see this character doing great. It's hard to see how this character stacks up and there's still a chance he's still better than :ultganondorf: and possibly :ultdk:with even the buffs but that's not a particularly high bar and :ultkrool:has quite a bit of a chance to actually be better than our fellow blue penguin but that's based off of speculation.

:ultkingdedede:'s results on the OrionStats despite some slight improvements in recent weeks has had him drop a TON from this season compared to last season with even Zaki's near top 32 placement at EVO not doing enough justice for this character. While Peli and Atomsk have slowly starting picking up :ultkingdedede:a bit more for a few matchups I still honestly don't think it's enough to really get him back onto the map unless Zaki either travels more or if he gets a truly good breakout performance. A lot of :ultkingdedede:'s best matchups received notable buffs and due to there just being simply WAY better characters it really doesn't do :ultkingdedede:any justice. His potentially even matchups against the likes of :ultpeach::ultdaisy:, :ultlucina:, and :ultjoker:with some arguments of :ultsnake:being even (although I heard that the matchup may get worse over time and Grenades kind of do screw around with :ultkingdedede:) really don't matter as much if he gets hard countered by most of the rest of top/high tier with a lot of these matchups being either borderline unwinnable when the opponent optimizes their counterplay (:ultgnw::ultzss::ultpalutena::ultpikachu:) or make his life really hard (:ultyoshi::ultwario::ultyounglink::ultgreninja::ulttoonlink::ultmario::ultlink::ultpichu:) and the fact that matchups like :ultjigglypuff:,:ultkirby:,:ultkrool:,:ultrobin:,:ultdk:, and :ultincineroar: all became harder for him where the characters listed tended to be some of DDD's few winning matchups causing his niche counterplay ability for these low/mid tiers to also be worse at the same time.

The fact that :ultkingdedede:got not only nerfs in a lot of the patches, but BIG nerfs (Almost to the extent of :ultpichu: or :ultolimar: arguably) really hurts as it makes him deviate from meta relevancy. The fact that his Forward-Smash no longer shield breaks while also removing his gordo shield break setups weakens his ledge game by a noticeable amount as now being shield broken is no longer a relevant issue and the gordo shield change also makes it harder for Dedede to really punish the opponent for shielding too much so he's either forced to deal with shield with his sluggish grab or he has to utilize his inhale which is infamously slow and has a ton of endlag while not having enough reliable reward to really punish the opponent outside of stage control. The reduced Gordo hitbox size also weakened some of his matchups against characters with bad hitboxes but fast frame data like :ultinkling:,:ultsheik:,:ultfalcon:, and due to the punishment of :ultkingdedede: getting hit by his own gordo being quite big, it does make a difference. Also Super Dedede Jump not having better horizontal distance if you gordo boost it beforehand giving him less offstage mixup.


:ultkingdedede:'s tools really just don't help him either especially as the meta rewards lamer and lamer play. :ultkingdedede:'s inhale is absurdly slow and of course only allows for one projectile at a time and due to his absurdly slow spit animation it actually doesn't help him with a lot of matchups as many would think. :ultkingdedede: having by far the worst air speed in the game while having an also quite underwhelming ground game means that he has issues getting from Point A to B and since his hitboxes are slow and the opponent can shield for free most of the time while most of the cast can just play runaway on most of :ultkingdedede:'s tools, it really makes him super vulnerable to camping. The fact that :ultkingdedede:also lacks a horizontal threat range forcing him to use gordo way more against zoners as there is no real other way to get around other zoning options in many other scenarios and due to gordo's anarchial and inconsistent nature this brings upon way too many issues against such matchups. Also consider :ultkingdedede:'s easy to hit combo food nature and his horrible disadvantage as his multiple jumps gets completely subsided by the fact that he suffers from short jump heights and poor enough airspeeds where it's hard for him to not get caught by many moves when he tries to reset neutral alongside his poor ability to get off of ledge as long as the opponent doesn't get hit by sharked Up-Air. This wouldn't be such a fundamental issue if :ultkingdedede:had kill power, the biggest issue with :ultkingdedede: as a heavyweight is that he focuses too much on being a wall but he doesn't have enough kill power to really capitalize any mistakes at optimal top level play. :ultkingdedede:has to depend on either A: A hard read at ledge (As long as the opponent understands their positioning it's pretty obvious how to get out of his ledge traps if he has to buffer a strong move) B: A strong whiff punish if the opponent makes a super big mistake (He usually uses Back-Air, Up-Smash, and Down-Smash) C: Edge guarding (Gordo offstage, Forward-Air, the usual, however DDD's horrible air speed means that the opponent can just drift out and then in to avoid getting hit by most of his things offstage and gordo offstage sends the opponent vertically meaning that gordo will sometimes not even kill offstage and it can get you out of :ultkingdedede:'s danger zone) or D: Jet Hammer and Dash Attack Jank (Only works in some matchups like :ultike: or :ultchrom: reliably and their reward is ridiculously good and beats out :ultkingdedede: in every other way preventing the matchup from being truly good for our penguin. He can Dash Attack and Jet Hammer 2 frame certain other recoveries but his punishment for not getting it properly tends to involve him completely losing stage control and most of the cast can slightly mix up their recoveries enough to avoid it anyways). :ultkingdedede: lacks a quick whiff punish tool that can kill reliably such as the likes of :ultganondorf:'s anything, :ultbowser:'s forward-tilt, :ultdk: and :ultincineroar:'s kill throws, etc. :ultkingdedede:at most has a potentially killing Up-Tilt at frame 7 that can kill if unstaled which sounds nice at first but it really only works well for whiff punishes for crossups or if the opponent doesn't realize that it has a hitbox at the end that is facing towards :ultkingdedede:and due to :ultkingdedede: using the move a lot at low to mid % it can be quite easy to stale as well. :ultkingdedede:also cannot whiff punish very well out of shield to get out of pressure and it makes it harder for him to get the positioning he needs at higher % meaning he cannot play very defensively as he gives into pressure that's even a little bit safe. :ultkingdedede:'s Up-Air is also infamous for not even killing at 140% on the top with good DI and rage even if it isn't staled a ton on midweights and really a lot of his "kill moves" outside of unstaled back-air and his strong smash attacks really just don't do much and just don't kill that reliably. :ultkingdedede: tries too hard to be a defensive-based heavy but his lack of real reward really just doesn't do the character any justice and being a tank in today's meta just doesn't cut it when most of the cast can take :ultkingdedede:to 100% or have true 0 to death combos on him or he can get lamed out without being able to win neutral and when he does he doesn't get the reward he needs to get anything he wants. Also yes you can edge guard :ultkingdedede: without going too deep. He has small jumps and poor air speed and really he can only gordo to reverse edge guard which is a frame 29 move that you can hit back, just hit him before he upbs and if he goes deep down directly below the ledge then just punish him at ledge.


So yea not a good character and I can see this character drop significantly.
 

TennisBall

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Poor :ultkingdedede:. He totally deserves to have his buffs in this game. He's a fun character to play and the idea of a super heavyweight that also has a sword-like style along with how wacky he is really appealing.
Too bad he's arguably Bottom 10.
 

LightKnight

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Mar 21, 2019
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149
He will have trouble with heavy zoners (Snake, MM, ROB), certain swordies (Chrom, Shulk), and better whiff punishers (Greninja, Fox, probably ZSS). Terry is certainly a strong character; it says a lot when all his problematic MUs are arguable top tiers.
So a character like MiiSwordfighter could potentially be a serious threat to Terry? Seeing as he uses disjointed sword attacks and is considered a zoner when specced/played optimally?
Or is the speed/range of his attacks not good enough and his zoning tools not numerous/overpowering enough?
I think we should talk a bit about one of our less talked about but still quite unfortunate soul known as :ultkingdedede: in today's meta, especially since a lot of characters below him got buffs.
This wouldn't be such a fundamental issue if :ultkingdedede:had kill power, the biggest issue with :ultkingdedede: as a heavyweight is that he focuses too much on being a wall but he doesn't have enough kill power to really capitalize any mistakes at optimal top level play.
Yeah, whenever I play the character the biggest issue I notice immediately is his trouble netting the KO. Giving more knockback to some of his aerials I feel would go a long way. Also, the sound affects just don't sound right to me when I get the hit. I'm not sure if its because they sound weak or if I'm not getting enough power behind the hit to correspond with the sounds.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Champion
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Jun 7, 2016
Messages
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Others have already caught on to the most important thing about Terry at this stage (which I had a bumper post written on but I won’t bore you with now). He is not a Ken/Ryu/Luigi, he is a whiff punisher. He has among the best whiff punishing tools in the game and has a seriously good midrange game. His close range is still amongst the best despite not being at the level of the 3 aforementioned characters, so he is likely to outreward you up close even if you do get past his excellent midrange. He will have trouble with heavy zoners (Snake, MM, ROB), certain swordies (Chrom, Shulk), and better whiff punishers (Greninja, Fox, probably ZSS). Terry is certainly a strong character; it says a lot when all his problematic MUs are arguable top tiers.
I mean, how much does that really say? They're top tiers for a reason, and if he's bad against them, I don't see that being good for him going forward. Also, it's good for him that he auto turns because if he is somehow not facing the stage, I think his back special actually kind of screws him over.
 

Rizen

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I think we should talk a bit about one of our less talked about but still quite unfortunate soul known as :ultkingdedede: in today's meta, especially since a lot of characters below him got buffs. :ultkingdedede:is a strong contender for bottom 10 in patch 6.0.0 and honestly I just cannot give a convincing case to get this character out of low tier, call me pessimistic if you want but I really just don't see this character doing great. It's hard to see how this character stacks up and there's still a chance he's still better than :ultganondorf: and possibly :ultdk:with even the buffs but that's not a particularly high bar and :ultkrool:has quite a bit of a chance to actually be better than our fellow blue penguin but that's based off of speculation.

:ultkingdedede:'s results on the OrionStats despite some slight improvements in recent weeks has had him drop a TON from this season compared to last season with even Zaki's near top 32 placement at EVO not doing enough justice for this character. While Peli and Atomsk have slowly starting picking up :ultkingdedede:a bit more for a few matchups I still honestly don't think it's enough to really get him back onto the map unless Zaki either travels more or if he gets a truly good breakout performance. A lot of :ultkingdedede:'s best matchups received notable buffs and due to there just being simply WAY better characters it really doesn't do :ultkingdedede:any justice. His potentially even matchups against the likes of :ultpeach::ultdaisy:, :ultlucina:, and :ultjoker:with some arguments of :ultsnake:being even (although I heard that the matchup may get worse over time and Grenades kind of do screw around with :ultkingdedede:) really don't matter as much if he gets hard countered by most of the rest of top/high tier with a lot of these matchups being either borderline unwinnable when the opponent optimizes their counterplay (:ultgnw::ultzss::ultpalutena::ultpikachu:) or make his life really hard (:ultyoshi::ultwario::ultyounglink::ultgreninja::ulttoonlink::ultmario::ultlink::ultpichu:) and the fact that matchups like :ultjigglypuff:,:ultkirby:,:ultkrool:,:ultrobin:,:ultdk:, and :ultincineroar: all became harder for him where the characters listed tended to be some of DDD's few winning matchups causing his niche counterplay ability for these low/mid tiers to also be worse at the same time.

The fact that :ultkingdedede:got not only nerfs in a lot of the patches, but BIG nerfs (Almost to the extent of :ultpichu: or :ultolimar: arguably) really hurts as it makes him deviate from meta relevancy. The fact that his Forward-Smash no longer shield breaks while also removing his gordo shield break setups weakens his ledge game by a noticeable amount as now being shield broken is no longer a relevant issue and the gordo shield change also makes it harder for Dedede to really punish the opponent for shielding too much so he's either forced to deal with shield with his sluggish grab or he has to utilize his inhale which is infamously slow and has a ton of endlag while not having enough reliable reward to really punish the opponent outside of stage control. The reduced Gordo hitbox size also weakened some of his matchups against characters with bad hitboxes but fast frame data like :ultinkling:,:ultsheik:,:ultfalcon:, and due to the punishment of :ultkingdedede: getting hit by his own gordo being quite big, it does make a difference. Also Super Dedede Jump not having better horizontal distance if you gordo boost it beforehand giving him less offstage mixup.


:ultkingdedede:'s tools really just don't help him either especially as the meta rewards lamer and lamer play. :ultkingdedede:'s inhale is absurdly slow and of course only allows for one projectile at a time and due to his absurdly slow spit animation it actually doesn't help him with a lot of matchups as many would think. :ultkingdedede: having by far the worst air speed in the game while having an also quite underwhelming ground game means that he has issues getting from Point A to B and since his hitboxes are slow and the opponent can shield for free most of the time while most of the cast can just play runaway on most of :ultkingdedede:'s tools, it really makes him super vulnerable to camping. The fact that :ultkingdedede:also lacks a horizontal threat range forcing him to use gordo way more against zoners as there is no real other way to get around other zoning options in many other scenarios and due to gordo's anarchial and inconsistent nature this brings upon way too many issues against such matchups. Also consider :ultkingdedede:'s easy to hit combo food nature and his horrible disadvantage as his multiple jumps gets completely subsided by the fact that he suffers from short jump heights and poor enough airspeeds where it's hard for him to not get caught by many moves when he tries to reset neutral alongside his poor ability to get off of ledge as long as the opponent doesn't get hit by sharked Up-Air. This wouldn't be such a fundamental issue if :ultkingdedede:had kill power, the biggest issue with :ultkingdedede: as a heavyweight is that he focuses too much on being a wall but he doesn't have enough kill power to really capitalize any mistakes at optimal top level play. :ultkingdedede:has to depend on either A: A hard read at ledge (As long as the opponent understands their positioning it's pretty obvious how to get out of his ledge traps if he has to buffer a strong move) B: A strong whiff punish if the opponent makes a super big mistake (He usually uses Back-Air, Up-Smash, and Down-Smash) C: Edge guarding (Gordo offstage, Forward-Air, the usual, however DDD's horrible air speed means that the opponent can just drift out and then in to avoid getting hit by most of his things offstage and gordo offstage sends the opponent vertically meaning that gordo will sometimes not even kill offstage and it can get you out of :ultkingdedede:'s danger zone) or D: Jet Hammer and Dash Attack Jank (Only works in some matchups like :ultike: or :ultchrom: reliably and their reward is ridiculously good and beats out :ultkingdedede: in every other way preventing the matchup from being truly good for our penguin. He can Dash Attack and Jet Hammer 2 frame certain other recoveries but his punishment for not getting it properly tends to involve him completely losing stage control and most of the cast can slightly mix up their recoveries enough to avoid it anyways). :ultkingdedede: lacks a quick whiff punish tool that can kill reliably such as the likes of :ultganondorf:'s anything, :ultbowser:'s forward-tilt, :ultdk: and :ultincineroar:'s kill throws, etc. :ultkingdedede:at most has a potentially killing Up-Tilt at frame 7 that can kill if unstaled which sounds nice at first but it really only works well for whiff punishes for crossups or if the opponent doesn't realize that it has a hitbox at the end that is facing towards :ultkingdedede:and due to :ultkingdedede: using the move a lot at low to mid % it can be quite easy to stale as well. :ultkingdedede:also cannot whiff punish very well out of shield to get out of pressure and it makes it harder for him to get the positioning he needs at higher % meaning he cannot play very defensively as he gives into pressure that's even a little bit safe. :ultkingdedede:'s Up-Air is also infamous for not even killing at 140% on the top with good DI and rage even if it isn't staled a ton on midweights and really a lot of his "kill moves" outside of unstaled back-air and his strong smash attacks really just don't do much and just don't kill that reliably. :ultkingdedede: tries too hard to be a defensive-based heavy but his lack of real reward really just doesn't do the character any justice and being a tank in today's meta just doesn't cut it when most of the cast can take :ultkingdedede:to 100% or have true 0 to death combos on him or he can get lamed out without being able to win neutral and when he does he doesn't get the reward he needs to get anything he wants. Also yes you can edge guard :ultkingdedede: without going too deep. He has small jumps and poor air speed and really he can only gordo to reverse edge guard which is a frame 29 move that you can hit back, just hit him before he upbs and if he goes deep down directly below the ledge then just punish him at ledge.


So yea not a good character and I can see this character drop significantly.
This brings up the power creep. Characters who didn't get buffed, especially those in lower mid tier near the buffed characters are feeling it. DLC keeps adding at least upper mid tier characters and patches are buffing low tiers (and some mid tiers). DDD's one of the victims.

Overall I'm happy with the patch. They should have nerfed a few top tiers but at least bad characters got meaningful buffs.
 

NotLiquid

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Others have already caught on to the most important thing about Terry at this stage (which I had a bumper post written on but I won’t bore you with now). He is not a Ken/Ryu/Luigi, he is a whiff punisher. He has among the best whiff punishing tools in the game and has a seriously good midrange game. His close range is still amongst the best despite not being at the level of the 3 aforementioned characters, so he is likely to outreward you up close even if you do get past his excellent midrange. He will have trouble with heavy zoners (Snake, MM, ROB), certain swordies (Chrom, Shulk), and better whiff punishers (Greninja, Fox, probably ZSS). Terry is certainly a strong character; it says a lot when all his problematic MUs are arguable top tiers.

I would rather direct my attention to Jigglypuff.

She is terrifying now.

Dair has the skewed risk/reward of a top tier option regardless of whether it is autocancelled or she lands with it. It’s an incredibly good button when autocancelled and the potency of a viable rest combo of course cannot be overstated.

I would easily call her in the top half of the cast at this point. She still has massive weaknesses which keep her out of top tier, but high tier could well be within her grasp.
Definitely agree that zoners are probably going to be the "hard" MUs for Terry, but I think he might do decently against ROB, mostly because his disadvantage is still not that great. Multiple of his attacks are slow which means ample opportunities for reversals, and his hurtbox makes some of Terry's more sus kill confirms a lot more reliable to connect. Power Wave also counters his Gyro when employed in neutral, though Terry is still forced to contend with in long-range due to his beam, and as far as off-stage goes, yeah he loses that handily. I could see it going disadvantage but generally kind of volatile; 45:55 at worst.
 

Ziodyne 21

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Its great that that many low tiers that desperately needed buffs got them. However . I wonder will they will now have the issue that most mid and even some high tier characters have in that they will be gatekeeped in competitive play by certain top tier characters

For example :ultpacman::ultgnw: :ultrob:despite having having good results just seem to do horribly vs :ultpalutena:.

Then again. Its nothing compared to Smash 4 :4bayonetta: and :4cloud: who between them invalidated about 75 % of the roster They WERE the power creep in that game.
 
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Thinkaman

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If "power creep" refers to literally any (positive) change in the "average power" of a set of elements, I think it becomes sort of a useless definition. I think it is (or ought to be) just a bit more specific.

I've always considered it as relating to the "meta". Like if you introduced DLC to Melee that was even better than Fox, or 3 new DLC who were all just as good or nearly as good as Fox, that would certainly be power creep. But if you removed Pichu from Melee, or marginally buffed Pichu (even to the point that rare people actually play him to a relevant extent), I don't think it communicates anything to call that increasing-of-the-average "power creep."


To bring this back from Semantics Land, I'm unconvinced that Kirby or K. Rool buffs affect Ganondorf's or Corrin's relevance to an extent you could find without a microscope. You are talking about a small shift in matchups that comprise probably less than 0.5% of competitive play each.

Like, let's just say that Kirby's buff's are so big that Kirby is now 10% better, whatever that means. So Kirby is is "10% better" in 100% of matchups, aka just plain 10% better overall. And now Ganon, like every other character, is relatively "10% worse" in the 0.5% matches against Kirby players. So Kirby goes up 10%, and Ganon goes down 0.05%. Even if this happens multiple times, it doesn't add up to a meaningful change for Ganon. You'd have to buff literally every other character (including the top tiers!) for Ganon to experience an implicit nerf actually equal in magnitude to said buffs.

All this is, is a minor aspect of patch culture--people feeling left out. It has magnitudes more to do with twitter ect. than the game itself.
 
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I like to think of a new Smash patch as a storm in the ocean that causes waves throwing characters every which way. Mid tiers fall down to low due to power creep, low tier rise up to mid due to buffs, top tiers drop off a bit due to nerfs (wasn't the case this patch, but it's still a common instance), and DLC adds characters that can cause a huge ripple effect for everyone depending on how good the DLC character is.
 
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