Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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$.A.F.

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Geez when did Plautena become public enemy #1 all of a sudden. Becuase she finally win an A-S ranked major? Because tons of people were doubting was top 10 pre Nairo's win at Mainstage?

I guess that makes sense. It took that for Joker as well.

So what, Snake's DA/ up-tilt and Wario waft is fine now? Pearch and Olimar even post-nerf taking you from 0-70 in seconds is acceptable. But Plautena needs to be nerfed 3.0 Pichu style..
I mean, yeah. Wario has somewhat faded more into the background ever since Tweek has all but stopped using him. And even then people are asking for waft nerfs. Snake hasn’t even been really top 8ing majors as of late so nobody is up in arms about him Peach and Olimar have like you said, characters that have been nerfed before so people don’t care as much not to mention they’re hard to pick up and play and therefore uncommon. Palutena has 1. Never been nerfed 2. Has just won a major fairy recently 3. Is extremely simple to pick up and play 4. Has a specific busted move people can point out as universally considered busted 5. Is extremely common 6. Has been on the rise as of late 7. Does extremely well against almost every character worse than her and 8. Is not considered hype, stylish, or even passably watchable by the community. These factors are why she’s being offered up for nerfs. And PS, nerfing one move =\= anything resembling 3.1.0 Pichu.
 

boysilver400

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I don't think :ultpalutena: or :ultpikachu: are #1 in the game, but they could still use some minor toning down imo.

My personal wishlist

Buffs.

:ultkirby: oh man...what doesn't need to be buffed about this dude?
- In all seriousness, Inhale should have less startup, more range, less cooldown, and...just please fix this damn move.
- Speaking of **** that needs to be fixed, F-throw on BF and Lylat. It's FAF needs to be earlier or the plat height needs to be lower. Making F-Air frame 5 or something would also help.
- There's also stone on shields. Bowser and Yoshi bombs hit twice on shield; the former in particular can instantly break a full shield. Meanwhile Kirby's stone only hits once on shield for some reason and it doesn't even do that much shield damage.
- Nair, Fair and Uair need to be faster for how little range they have. Specifically frame 5, but I'd love a frame 3 nair >:)
- Jab barely works and needs more range and less endlag. It's currently his worst move and it's his fastest move :glare:
- This isn't as important as many others say it is, but he could use a mobility buff too. Whether it's ground or air speed. I think the former would do more for him since his run speed is already average, while his airspeed is abysmal and likely won't even increase that much. Him being slow in the air is part of his character. Airspeed should probs increase to like .9 ish and run speed to 1.9.

There are probably more im forgetting because dude is that awful and is easily the worst in the game rn but this is what stands out the most.

:ultjigglypuff:
- Rest should kill a lot earlier. And I mean Doriyah levels of early on lightweights. It's hard to land, and is way more punishable than Waft because of her sleeping.
That's pretty much all I have for her. I don't know that much about her.

:ultkrool:
- Could use better hitbox on and up air.
- Less startup on fair would help him.
- Possibly better mobility?

:ultlittlemac:
- Just let him have side B back after getting hit.

Nerfs
:ultjoker:
- Down B. Just Down B. Nerf every single thing about both versions. Meter shouldn't charge that fast. Arsene counter hitbox needs to be gutted. Meter should go down faster. Arsene bair shouldn't be that strong. Just...why did the developing think any of this was okay while Kirby's ass is suffering?
Speaking of Down B...

:ultzss:
- Flip Kick shouldn't travel as far so it isn't a literal Get out of jail free card, bury shouldn't last as long, and the kick should probably be slower too.
- Down Smash should also have more endlag.

:ultpalutena:
- Nair and Uair should have more endlag, and...that's honestly all I have for her.

:ultpikachu:
- ...honestly, I don't even think Pikachu's top 10, but Nair should probably have more endlag and that's all I really have for him.

:ultpeach:
- Float cancel aerials should not do full hop damage. Make them do short hop damage and then I'm golden.

:ultwario:
- Tone down Waft. It shouldn't kill at 40% while Rest barely kills at 80% lmao.

:ultsnake: dear god this character...
- Who thought it was a good idea to make Up smash spammable? Needs way more endlag, tf?
- Nikita. Self explanatory.
- Nades should be like frame 4 or something this damn character doesn't deserve anything faster than frame 4.
- Uptilt either needs to get it's KGB reduced, or be like 4 frames slower. One of the most low risk high reward moves in the game other than Palu's nair and Flip Kick.
- Why is that Dash attack frame 5?
- Why is Down air frame 3?
- Nerf the hitboxes on his explosions in general. Especially c4...
SnakeC4.png

I...does no one see why that's a problem?

Seriously, why don't more people complain about this ****ing character?? I know he hasn't had consistent results since you know who left but Pikachu is barely top 20 in terms of results and everyone thinks he's the undisputed #1 in the game. Snake is still #4 on orion stats and for some reason people don't even think he's top 10???

Lol these nerf talks are so negative

I think it’s much more fun/hopeful to talk about buffing characters...
Here's a crazy idea

Why not do both? Because that's how balancing works?

I keep seeing people all over twitter say that buffs are more important than nerfs(which they are, but nerfs need to happen), and people respond with "So would you want to see anyone buffed to Palu's level?" But no one's asking for that. We just want this game to actually be ****ing balanced(it isn't). Buffing trash characters is necesarry, but nerfing some of the bs in this game is also necessary if not even more so.

I don't know why this is such a foreign concept to Smash twitter. That's literally the point of balancing. I have a headache....
 

Arthur97

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Oh, yeah, so everyone can instantly judge Terry within 24 hours of release. Fun times. If he ends up technical, I can see him being awarded "Great Potential" status early on. I can't really say Shulk status anymore since he actually started doing a little.
 

bc1910

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Did 5.0.0 even break replays? I am definitely expecting some balance adjustments in 6.0.0, if only a few.

Whilst I agree with the balance team’s apparent philosophy of buffing low tiers first, I feel enough time has passed for certain top tiers to be addressed. I wouldn’t be sorry to see Joker, ZSS, Palu, Pikachu, Peach or Snake nerfed.

Nerd down guns and flip jump. Also nerf Float.

We have a real game.
How would you nerf float?
 

KakuCP9

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Did 5.0.0 even break replays? I am definitely expecting some balance adjustments in 6.0.0, if only a few.

Whilst I agree with the balance team’s apparent philosophy of buffing low tiers first, I feel enough time has passed for certain top tiers to be addressed. I wouldn’t be sorry to see Joker, ZSS, Palu, Pikachu, Peach or Snake nerfed.



How would you nerf float?
If I recall correctly, aerials done out of float ignore the x0.80 multiplier for short hops even when Peach does a float from a short hop so she kinda does more damage/shield damage than she should, especially when the devs explicitly want short hop offense to be less rewarding. It's not huge, though it was something that bugged me since release.
 

SolidSense

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How would you nerf float?
Probably just make it so that it doesn't do full hop damage at short hop height; that would reduce the damage output of low-percent strings from the 50s and 60s to the 40s. Peach's archetype should be that of a bait and punish character, not a I-hit-you-once-with-a-random-move-and-converted-from-it type of character. The types of characters who usually have 60% conversions don't also happen to have what is probably the best projectile in the game for forcing approaches. Peach is like Luigi, or Pikachu, who do a lot of damage when they get a hit but have to use clever tactics to get in, except that Peach doesn't need to get in--you need to get in on Peach.

Zoners in this game in general seem mis-tuned for their designs. Characters like Snake and Pacman have top-tier neutrals that make it so hard to get near them, but once you do penetrate their iron-clad defense, they've got more rewarding boxing games than you, which means your best option is actually not to try to get in at all.

Also, Pikachu is good but I think he's being a bit overrated here. He was likely around the middle tiers in s4. It's true that he was very impressively buffed in so many ways (up-air, b-air), but he still suffers from some major issues once you learn how to fight him in neutral. For a quick example, f-air, the move that everyone gets hit by all the time, is actually frame 11. That's relatively slow. You can frequently just swing when Pikachu jumps and hit him before he hits you. b-air is much scarier out of shield (f7 OOS), but as long as you're not standing on top of Pikachu, it's significantly less scary than something like a swordie OOS option (Lucina/Marth up-b, Chrom/Roy b-air, Chrom up-b).

The thing is that he's so small and has an absurd combo game, so people just crumble against him due to lack of matchup exposure; they find themselves getting hit once and losing half a stock, then not knowing how to avoid getting hit more and losing the game or set. ESAM is also a phenomenal player, so Pikachu holds his own at top level. But here, let me give you some advice against PIkachu:

1. Don't jump from halfway across the stage; you'll get punished for landing by Quick Attack.
2. Don't be afraid to be near Pikachu while in your shield. Pikachu doesn't have much grab range (unlike Pichu).
3. Wait for him to QA and punish, or if you're in range, just swing. QA takes so many frames to start that it's not reliable as a landing tool, especially with his mediocre air speed (0.957!)--that's #65 in the cast, one of the worst airspeeds in the entire game. You should be able to juggle him consistently with most characters.
4. Don't pick Kalos, he has too many escape options there.
5. Try to edgeguard his recovery close to the ledge, don't let him have ledge for free; QA has many different angles but it's slow enough that you can react to it.
6. When ledgetrapping him, don't just stand in shield near the ledge. He'll QA past you. Throw out hitboxes. He's very light, so taking the gamble and swinging is better than standing there waiting to react to something.
7. You can S/DI the drag-off-the-stage f-air and b-air chains so that you stay on stage.

This is just a very short list; I might make a full guide on fighting Pika, because honestly it would be cool to see folks play the matchup correctly.

Once you do play it correctly, I think that he's probably a bit shy of top tier. He got all of the buffs that I wanted to see coming from S4, though--a grounded KO move in Dash Attack, a spike, up-air buff, and a strong OOS option in b-air--so I won't claim that he's bad.
 
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Megamang

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It isn't that palu is running the meta, or that she won a major. I'm the first to call smash players reactionary when they call latest winner the undisputed best...

Its that those mid/low tier runs that we all enjoy so much are so very likely to get snuffed out by palu, and she doesn't seem to need to adjust her gameplan much / at all.
 

SwagGuy99

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It isn't that palu is running the meta, or that she won a major. I'm the first to call smash players reactionary when they call latest winner the undisputed best...

Its that those mid/low tier runs that we all enjoy so much are so very likely to get snuffed out by palu, and she doesn't seem to need to adjust her gameplan much / at all.
Yeah, pretty much. Palutena obliterates a lot of mid/low/bottom tiers and even some of the high tiers but (at least in my opinion) she kind of struggles against some of the Top Tiers.

They can either:
  • Rush her down :ultroy::ultchrom::ultfox::ultmario::ultpikachu::ultsquirtle::ultjoker:
  • Outrange her :ultlucina::ultshulk::ultivysaur:
  • Are faster than her :ultroy::ultchrom::ultfox::ultzss:
  • Have better frame data than her :ultmario::ultfox::ultwolf::ultwario::ultsquirtle::ultpikachu::ultjoker:
  • Juggle or combo her very well :ultmario::ultfox::ultjoker::ultroy::ultchrom::ultlucina::ultpikachu::ultpeach::ultgreninja::ultsquirtle::ultwario:
Am I saying that she loses to nearly every Top Tier in this game? No, of course not. I'm not a genius on Palutena's matchups, but most Top Tiers are able to outclass her strengths or capitalize on her weaknesses fairly well.

She still has her amazing air game, decent range, good anti-camping tools (note that :ultsnake: and :ultolimar: are absent from the earlier list) decent speed, a decent recovery, good juggles and combos, and n-air shenanigans, but I think that (while she does have a high chance of getting nerfed in the next patch) isn't nearly as good as she is made out to be. She's not a overly dominant character yet and just because she won a major, it doesn't mean she's the best in the game. :ultmegaman: and :ultike: characters who were used (in combination with other characters) to win majors but you don't see most people saying the same things about them as you do about Palutena.

Again, I'm not saying she isn't good, or even that she isn't Top Tier, but she does seem to be being over-hyped as of right now. Unless most of the Top Tiers get nerfed in the next patch (unlikely) I can't ever imagine her being the best character in the game.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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I've actually been avoiding discussing nerfs to characters like Joker and Palutena because of my matchup inexperience. I was bodied in two different tournaments by a Joker player, but unfortunately I don't have anyone competent who plays the character to practice with. And on Wifi, most Joker players run away after one match.
 

NotLiquid

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- Terry has a comeback mechanic in the form of Desperation Moves. If his percent goes above 100%, he can input double command specials that are much stronger (Power Geyser / Buster Wolf). While strong, these leave him punishable.
- Every special move has four variants; regular input light/heavy and command input light/heavy.
- He is the first character with a backward special (Crack Shoot).
- Terry can cancel attacks into his specials.
- Terry has a specific attack that cancels his spot-dodge animation.
- Seems to have a lot of ways to mixup recovery between Crack Shoot / Rising Tackle and decent vertical range.
- Frame data might be a little sus, he's not as fast as Ryu in this regard.
 

SwagGuy99

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Overall, not to get too indepth on Terry (since he isn't even out), but he seems to be less about combos than :ultryu:/:ultken: (although he still has some good combos) and more about covering a lot of options at once and being a generally unpredictable character.
 

NotLiquid

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Yonder

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Shorter charge time on thunder and arcfire no longer being snuffed by everything...biggest winner of the patch imo.
 
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:ultkirby: frame data changes that I tested out so far:

- NAir start-up reduced (frame 10 -> 8)
- UAir start-up reduced (frame 10 -> 8)
- Jab start-up reduced (frame 3 -> 2)
- Inhale start-up reduced (frame 14 -> 10)

Rough knockback changes (all of these were tested against :ultmario:):

- Neutral aerial's knockback is just absurd now, it even kills earlier than his back aerial at the edge (I'm pretty sure it kills at around 100~105 by the ledge at Final Destination)? It feels even stronger than :ultlink:'s and :ultyounglink:'s sex kicks now.

- USmash's sourspot now kills at 110% at Final Destination, about 15% earlier than :ultmario:'s USmash.

- UAir kills at around 155% on ground level at Final Destination and deals more damage (9% -> 10%).
 
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:ultkirby: frame data changes that I tested out so far:

- NAir start-up reduced (frame 10 -> 8)
- UAir start-up reduced (frame 10 -> 8)
- Jab start-up reduced (frame 3 -> 2)
- Inhale start-up reduced (frame 14 -> 10)

Neutral aerial's knockback is just absurd now, it even kills earlier than his back aerial at the edge.
Is he actual viable now?
It didn't fix his biggest issues but having a good kill move is quite nice.
 

SwagGuy99

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Since I'm not exactly an expert on the other buffed characters, I'll cover the :ultdk::

  • F-tilt is a safer move.
  • N-air is going to be better for landing and using out of a short-hop or OOS with it's increased range and knockback.
  • Giant Punch has less charge time and is more powerful (unnecessary but I'll take it).
  • Up-special will be better OOS with the earlier startup on the armor and hopefully the other change will stop people from popping out of the move when hit at a certain angle. It's also more powerful.
  • I'm not 100% sure about down-special but it either means that it's a better landing option or it's less committal when using it on the ground. If it's a better landing option, that's a huge buff for DK. If it's a better move when grounded, it's a buff, but not that notable to be honest.
I'm planning on testing down-special later if nobody else does it first.
Edit: I'm hearing talk of :ultkirby: being viable due to having kill moves other than dash attack now. Hopefully that turns out to be true.
 
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Ryu Myuutsu

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Oh, goody, more special treatment and come back mechanics. Why come back mechanics? Who likes those?
So when someone gets "special treatment" like that, you are gonna ***** about it every time? Better not have nice things, I suppose. Sounds like your daily life is full of envy and empty pettiness.

Frame 10 Inhale? So now it is a real move.
While maybe not the change that Kirby needed the most, this makes me excited nonetheless. I tend to go for the Inhale on certain matchups were the copy ability is very handy to have.
 
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NotLiquid

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First impressions trying out Terry, god damn is he fun.

Second, his weakness seems to mainly be approach options, but he's mainly trying to force out approaches, hence Power Wave. Most of his frame data seems solid, he has a good frame 7 OoS option with NAir (attack comes out frame 4 by my count) and all the smashes seem to do what you expect them to do. DSmash is his fastest at frame 8 from what I can tell. His landing lag on aerials seems... okay? Also, while his horizontal coverage isn't the greatest, I believe his command input rising tackle has full body invincibility.

Tilts are a little odd, they're not exactly spammable but he can confirm into a bunch of stuff from them as both up tilt and down tilt seemingly send opponents at pseudo-fixed knockbacks (KBG on them is really low). Up tilt into Power Geyser is a true kill confirm at relatively low percents (can be as low as 60%) which may be exacerbated by his spot dodge cancel. In short, he seems pretty damn deadly at first glance.
 
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It's quite possible the big winner of the patch is Jigglypuff. It appears that the change to Pound around makes aerial pound to Rest around 50% a consistent combo.

Edit: The changes to dair seem to be making landing dair to Rest somewhat more consistent as well. I don't think this latter one will be a thing, however.
 
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Arthur97

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Patch Notes
https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/48071

Pretty conservative again. No real nerfs.

:ultkrool::ultincineroar::ultkirby::ultrobin::ultdk::ultjigglypuff: mains might want to check these. Seems like they all got some substantial changes, though I'm not sure Incineroar's really matter that much.


Terry originated comeback mechanics in fighters.
Yeah, and Luigi can wall jump and Sonic has a boost ability. They don't have to be 1-to-1.

That said, at least Terry doesn't have Ryu style normals. Also, is it just me, or is his stronger comeback move easier to input? Also, why does this American stereotype speak in Engrish?

Why on earth would they increase Giant Punch's knockback? That was not one of his weaknesses.
 
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Calling it now, Terry is Upper-Mid or above.

So far while he doesn't have the craziest options available, he has some good coverage and that *GO* is going to carry him hard.


Anyway, HELL YEAH K. ROOL BUFFS!
He actually hits like a heavy and has an actual neutral now.

Great to see a ton of lower tiers get buffed. (Maybe next time :ultdoc: & :ultlittlemac:)
Seem like even the bottom of the roster is getting scarier at a quicker rate, and I love it!
 
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Huge stealth nerf in this Patch. :ultshulk: can't use Monado in hitstun anymore. Goodbye top tier

Edit: Ignore this, its misinfo.
 
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ARISTOS

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Terry looks like he ****s out damage lmao

I can imagine Ken mains switching over quickly

Falling uair is going to be very scary as it seems to confirm into a lot
 
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I want to give a more detailed write-up about :ultkirby:'s changes later based on some testing, but I'm definitely liking what I'm seeing so far.

Terry's stats have been found:


- A fairly average dash speed complemented by a terrible initial dash that's only better than :ultolimar::ultdoc: and :ultgunner:.
- A very poor air speed that just barely inches out against :ultkrool:'s.
- EXTREMELY beefy, somehow even heavier than :ultridley:. I get those muscles put on quite a bit of pounds, but dang.
- Surprisingly floaty for his weight class, having an even slower falling speed than :ultmario:.
 
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AxelVDP

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forgot to write this before but:
I found out that you can charge your up B even during animations other than crouching, for example you can do jab1 (start charging here) jab2 into up B (special cancelled and charged) (deals almost 24% this way which is pretty bonkers for something you can hit confirm easily (thanks to jab2 being multihit and giving you enough hitlag time to react) from a jab)
dunno if actually useful or if it was already known, just thought it was cool

edit: I'm talking about Terry obviously
 
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Spinosaurus

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forgot to write this before but:
I found out that you can charge your up B even during animations other than crouching, for example you can do jab1 (start charging here) jab2 into up B (special cancelled and charged) (deals almost 24% this way which is pretty bonkers for something you can hit confirm easily (thanks to jab2 being multihit and giving you enough hitlag time to react) from a jab)
dunno if actually useful or if it was already known, just thought it was cool

edit: I'm talking about Terry obviously
Yeah this is how it works in fighting games too. It's called charge buffering.

You can charge when shielding too! It works as an OoS, but spotdodging makes that annoying.
 
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The_Bookworm

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To the surprise of absolutely no one, the Joker-PkMn Trainer team glitch got patched.

Also, Robin mains are going crazy with these buffs.
The character was already solid mid tier before (Robin mains thinks he is higher than that), but the amount of love the character got in this patch is absolutely crazy (especially Arcfire and nair changes).
 

SwagGuy99

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I played :ultdk: a little bit in some friendlies after the buffs. I haven't tested him in training mode yet (I will later) but here's what I've noticed from playing him (might not be 100% correct):

  • F-tilt knockback buffs seem minimal but it's probably a safer move at slightly earlier percents than it used to be.
  • N-air damage buff means nothing and it still fails to hit shorter opponents like :ultmetaknight:.
  • Up-b seems a bit more powerful and the earlier startup on the armor makes the move slightly safer Edit: People seem to fall out of it less.
  • Giant Punch seems to deal a bit more knockback and the charge time is quicker.
  • Down-b seems to have minimal differences although it's not that noticeable.
 
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Nobie

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It's interesting that they're willing to mess with their air dodge end lag formula for Jigglypuff, if only a little bit. In Ultimate, all air dodge are based on fall speed, where the slower you fall, the longer your air dodge is. It makes sense that they're willing to give Puff a boost in this regard, but I'm surprised it happened at all. Maybe there's hope for other characters who miss their old air dodge?
 

SwagGuy99

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At least we can say that Kirby isn'T the bottom of the barrel anymore.
That title goes to Isabelle now. Or Corrin.
:ultisabelle: has an infinite that leads into kill moves which allows her to esacape the bottom of the barrel (without it, she's a lower low tier).

Currently, the only characters that I can say are definitively low tier are:ultlittlemac::ultcorrin::ultbrawler: and maybe :ultganondorf: and :ultkrool: (depending on how much the buffs affected him).
 
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