Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[$.A.F.]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1191520592719036416

Terry Direct 11/6 at 8 AM Eastern Time.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1191520592719036416

Terry Direct 11/6 at 8 AM Eastern Time.

The Terry direct is going to be 45 minutes long according to the annoucement. Wow
That is twice as long as any of the directos for the previous DLC characters. Wow

I wonder if there going be more than giving a rundown on Terry's moves and gameplay. Possibly a reveal/teaser for the final fighter pass character? Maybe even tease future DLC plans for Ultimate.

Everyone ARE YOU READY!?

 

[Arthur97]

Hmm, okay with that length, he's probably going to have some form of SF commands. Wonderful, because people play Smash for traditional fighting game controls.

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1191520592719036416

Terry Direct 11/6 at 8 AM Eastern Time.

Beat me to the punch.

Given that Joker and Banjo was released on the day of their demonstrations (and Hero a day after their's), Terry is most likely going to be to be released on that day. That means patch 6.0.0 is going to be released in 3 days or less from now.

What balance changes do you guys think is most likely going to happen? Judging from 5.0.0's lack of significant changes, it is pretty unpredictable.
Then again, there is much larger time period between Banjo and Terry's release, than between Hero and Banjo's release.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

What balance changes do you guys think is most likely going to happen?

If is getting any buffs, this is going away:

 

[Arthur97]

I predict minimal balancing like last time.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Beat me to the punch.

Given that Joker and Banjo was released on the day of their demonstrations (and Hero a day after their's), Terry is most likely going to be to be released on that day. That means patch 6.0.0 is going to be released in 3 days or less from now.

What balance changes do you guys think is most likely going to happen? Judging from 5.0.0's lack of significant changes, it is pretty unpredictable.
Then again, there is much larger time period between Banjo and Terry's release, than between Hero and Banjo's release.

Im guessing some buffs for some low or mid tiers mostly.

My guess if there is going to be nerfs. Joker, Palutena might have crosshairs on them. Sakruai apparently mae comments 9n them both during a tournslent he saw in Japan


Then again I dpmt think Sakurai has anything to do with the balacing of the gsme

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I predict minimal balancing like last time.

I wouldn't be surprised.

The balance team seemed pretty satiated so far.
This could be the meta game for a while.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Besides the new characters, what excites me the most about the updates are also the balance patches that come with them. A bunch of characters getting buffed is always a good prospect; let's just hope they don't get too crazy with the nerfs.

 

[boysilver400]

I’ve become pretty pessimistic about patch notes lately, especially after the joke that was 5.0. There needs to be a lot of buffs for garbage chars and minor nerfs for characters like and others for this game to truly be balanced, because as a former Kirby main, I’m not seeing a balanced meta. There are entire moves like Flip Kick that invalidate characters and there’s also crap like Arsene and Snakes entire moveset and then we have and and this game is supposed to be balanced?

There needs to be BIG changes in 6.0. Bigger than they were in 3.1.0. There’s literally no reason for Kirby to be untouched for three god damn patches in a row while Palu nair and Waft are still as dumb as they are.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Patch 5.0 came out roughly a month after Patch 4.0, so naturally the devs didn't want to make that many changes in so little time. On the other hand, Patch 6.0 is coming out about two months after 5.0 and three months after 4.0 which was the latest big balance change. The bigger balance changes tend to have larger periods of time in between releases, so it's unlikely that the next patch is going to be as minimal as 5.0.

It's surprising how this fact flies over most people's heads for the sake of indulging in their own pessimism rather than taking at least 5 seconds to think this through.

 

[boysilver400]

Patch 5.0 came out roughly a month after Patch 4.0, so naturally the devs didn't want to make that many changes in so little time.

But there were so many characters that needed buffs, fixes to moves that shouldn’t be dysfunctional almost a year into the game, or in Kirby’s case, both.

If they don’t want to shake the meta too hard, fine, but Kirby has no excuse to be this bad a year into the game while most of the cast is viable.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Apparently, there will be no announcements for other DLC characters during this livestream according to Nintendo Versus.

Aside from the usual character showcase, stage reveal, music reveal, spirits reveal, and Mii costume reveal, there is still the fact that this is still 45 long minutes. Considering that Sakurai claims that Home-Run Contest is the last new mode to the game, I have no idea what else could fit in that 45 minutes.

As for balance changes, considering that, again, there is a far bigger time gap between 5.0.0 to 6.0.0 than between 4.0.0 and 5.0.0, bigger balance changes are more likely to happen. Bug fixes are pretty much a given (such as the Home-Run Contest boundary glitch, the Joker-PkMn Trainer team glitch, etc.), but hopefully we some actual significant balance changes this time.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

But there were so many characters that needed buffs, fixes to moves that shouldn’t be dysfunctional almost a year into the game, or in Kirby’s case, both.

If they don’t want to shake the meta too hard, fine, but Kirby has no excuse to be this bad a year into the game while most of the cast is viable.

Balance patches aren't over yet. The last character from the Pass is going to be released in February 2020; and after that there will be an undefined number of newcomers making it into the game, which means more balance patches. You are thinking of Kirby's performance as a fighter but the team in charge also have to keep about 70+ characters in mind. Smash 4 Mewtwo released in March 2015 and the patch that skyrocketed his tier placement was released on December 15, 2015. It's better for them to take their time. I think it's more prudent to hold the verdict until the patches are truly over rather than succumbing to outrage after every patch. Even if Kirb doesn't get buffed in 6.0 (which hopefully isn't the case) other characters you might enjoy may get need changes.

The situation is much better than it was in the 64, Melee and Brawl days. During those times, if your character was bad on release they were doomed to stay that way until the end.

 

[Rizen]

Beat me to the punch.

Given that Joker and Banjo was released on the day of their demonstrations (and Hero a day after their's), Terry is most likely going to be to be released on that day. That means patch 6.0.0 is going to be released in 3 days or less from now.

What balance changes do you guys think is most likely going to happen? Judging from 5.0.0's lack of significant changes, it is pretty unpredictable.
Then again, there is much larger time period between Banjo and Terry's release, than between Hero and Banjo's release.

They better nerf top tiers. If can't be a top tier, no one can

Seriously though, Arsene's meter better take a hit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Seriously though, Arsene's meter better take a hit.

Despite Joker being one of the best characters in the game, if not the best, he is in a relatively good spot, as he definitely not the easiest character to pick-up and play, especially when you approach the higher levels of competitive play (where there are not that much Joker reps unless you are from Japan).

Maybe a few of his Arsene moves can be toned down slightly though.

However, if there is one thing I definitely think they can tone down for Joker, is this nonsense of a hitbox:

 

[meleebrawler]

Balance patches aren't over yet. The last character from the Pass is going to be released in February 2020; and after that there will be an undefined number of newcomers making it into the game, which means more balance patches. You are thinking of Kirby's performance as a fighter but the team in charge also have to keep about 70+ characters in mind. Smash 4 Mewtwo released in March 2015 and the patch that skyrocketed his tier placement was released on December 15, 2015. It's better for them to take their time. I think it's more prudent to hold the verdict until the patches are truly over rather than succumbing to outrage after every patch. Even if Kirb doesn't get buffed in 6.0 (which hopefully isn't the case) other characters you might enjoy may get need changes.

Again you must also consider different modes of play like free-for-alls, where characters like Kirby can readily earn KOs with good, strong smashes and crushing unaware opposition with Stone and Hammer Flip. He is beginner friendly to the point of giving a taste of other fighters by copying them. Kind of a fine line to make him really good with this in mind; the game where he was at his best came about with nonsense like 64 utilt and a forward smash stronger than anyone else's bar the really slow DK's.

 

[KirbySquad101]

It's gonna be hard to tell: They may either just fix a bunch of moves, apply some direct buffs/nerfs, a combination of the two, or very much nothing like in patch 5.0.0. It's also hard to tell if the buffs/nerfs are going to be impactful at all: Very rarely have buffs ever made a major shift in a character's meta/standing (outside of ), even significant buffs like 's. Despite the buffs given to and , there has been little interest in picking them up. And in the case of nerfs, there hasn't been much that have made a major impact aside from , and even then the little rat's starting to make a comeback. So even if characters like or end up getting nerfed, I won't expect them to start tumbling down.



My Predictions:

1. Nerfs to - Solely because of their dominance in Japan (and in the case of Joker, MKLeo's major success; Joker isn't quite as popular in Japan compared to ZSS, though). Honestly, outside of that, I can't really see anyone else getting touched except maybe ? She has been growing more popular worldwide from what I've seen.

2. Buffs to and - There really isn't much of a basis behind these choices: buffs are a wild card, given that it feels like they use a dartboard to decide who gets buffs each patch lol.

Ideally:

1. I do think should probably be taken down a small notch or two, particularly one of the following things:

• Pity meter gain when losing a stock
• Arsene BAir hitbox
• Tetrakan hitbox
• Downward Guns

I honestly think all four are fine on their own, but when they're all slapped on the same character, you have a character that I feel may be a little bit too overtuned. Then again, in terms of power levels, Joker doesn't come close to previous top tiers, so if he doesn't end up getting nerfed, it's not like it'll be the end of Ultimate's meta or anything.

2. Maybe make bigger buffs? I understand wanting to be conservative to avoid any unintended consequences, but minimalist buffs doesn't really do much to get players interested in whoever's receiving said buffs. This does come with a few possible issues:

• It can be hard to tell who's more underrepresented rather than outright bad (i.e. or ), so giving really big buffs to characters like or may end up doing more harm than good.
• Characters with extremely volatile attributes such as or are very tricky to balance. I understand wanting to play it safe for these kinds of characters, because there are aspects about them that are intentionally overtuned to counterbalance their major weaknesses.

Still, I don't think it would be a major problem to give characters like Ken-level buffs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On a side note, Sparg0 seems to be back to his prime once again, placing 2nd at Delfino Maza 2 (a category 3 tournament): https://www.ssbwiki.com/Tournament:Delfino_Maza_2

He had a very strong run overall, beating out Chag twice and NAir^ once (with Inkling), and his only losses the entire tournament were against Maister . From the looks of things, his hiatus and decision to pick up Inkling to complement his Cloud were just what he needed to get his head back in the game. Thanks to him, Cloud's back in the Top 28 on OrionStats:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...j4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=342014565

 

[Ziodyne 21]

and are the most likely characters to see nerfs in my opinion. It took Nario winning Mainstage to get people sayimg she is top 5 and compaining about her.

My guess is characters like and may remain untouched mostly due to not hhaving the quite the same l of success and dominance they had around the 3.0-4.0 period.

 

[Diddy Kong]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1191520592719036416

Terry Direct 11/6 at 8 AM Eastern Time.

Calling it now; reveal of the last Fighter Pass character at the end.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nerd down guns and flip jump. Also nerf Float.

We have a real game.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Calling it now; reveal of the last Fighter Pass character at the end.

That was apparently already denied.

Anyway, buff Zelda.
She deserves being good.
Thanks.

 

[Arthur97]

I mean, this is Sakurai, there could still be a reveal.

Either way, the main thing that gets me about Joker's counter isn't even the range, at least, not solely, it's the fact that it is the strongest counter and is a reflector. Also, unlike Gut Check, it covers his whole body....and is still stronger. Just, why?

 

[SwagGuy99]

I feel like we'll get more balance changes in 6.0 than in 5.0 and while I have some characters in mind that I would like to be changed, I doubt that's going to happen. Judging from what we've seen so far, here's what I'm thinking is going to happen:

• is seems to be considered a Top 3 character consistently in Japan (more consistently than anyone else from what I can tell) so I'm expecting her to get some nerfs, probably to flip-kick, n-air, f-air, and a few other moves. Probably nothing major though.
• Other possible contenders for nerfs in this patch are due to being Top Tiers in competitive play and maybe due to how disliked they are to casual (and even some competitive) players. Also, will probably be nerfed because... I don't know why but it seems to be a thing that happens every patch at this point so why not. Overall, I think with the exceptions of possibly and nerfs in this patch will be fairly minor overall.
• While I think there are some characters in dire need of buffs, some of these characters are considered too good in casual play to be buffed. So, that aside, I feel like we will see buffs to some characters who are generally considered mid/low tier, but not the ones who really need it like . Characters who I think are likely to get changes are . I feel like need the least amount of changes to improve them by a large amount, but I feel like this might just be another patch with or receiving the most (mostly pointless) changes while everyone else just gets minor ones.
• Some random final predictions: issues might be fixed, jab infinite will probably be patched out, will get another random change, may get some minor hitbox buffs, and a random Top/High Tier will get a few random buffs for no reason at all.

TLDR

• will get minor nerfs. are in the danger zone for nerfs as are a few other characters unliked by casual players (and some competitive players) and .
• will not be touched.
• or will probably get a lot of unnecessary changes that don't address their issues (again).
• A few low/mid tiers might be buffed.
• will have issues adressed, will get changed again, and a decent character will get randomly buffed.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, this is Sakurai, there could still be a reveal.

Either way, the main thing that gets me about Joker's counter isn't even the range, at least, not solely, it's the fact that it is the strongest counter and is a reflector. Also, unlike Gut Check, it covers his whole body....and is still stronger. Just, why?

Because unlike Joker's other tools, Tetrakarn and Makarakarn are straight up unusable without Arsene. And considering he is always on a time limit, making the counters anything less would simply make them not worth the risk of going for most of the time in favour of his other buffed actions.

 

[Arthur97]

Because unlike Joker's other tools, Tetrakarn and Makarakarn are straight up unusable without Arsene. And considering he is always on a time limit, making the counters anything less would simply make them not worth the risk of going for most of the time in favour of his other buffed actions.

It still seems like overkill given how it is just straight up the best counter in the game. With Arsene not even being that hard to get, it seems it should at least not be the strongest too. Especially compared to as bad of a move as Gut Check.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Because unlike Joker's other tools, Tetrakarn and Makarakarn are straight up unusable without Arsene. And considering he is always on a time limit, making the counters anything less would simply make them not worth the risk of going for most of the time in favour of his other buffed actions.

They are an frame three counter and reflector with a very wide counter box which make recovering with characters who have a hitbox on their up b straight up not possible without much timing or positioning required on the Joker’s part. Not even bringing up the fact it’s also quite strong. And Rebel’s Guard isn’t a bad move either for what it does. I understand the point of making it good because you can only use it for a limited time frame but does it really need to have a counter box that large if your already going to make it one of the fastest moves in the game? I honestly don’t think so.

I think Joker is fine really and if he had to get toned down somewhere I wouldn’t start with his counter I’d really just slow down his meter charge rate, particularly the meter he gets upon respawning. If we are going to give him such strong options for a limited time frame I don’t see why we need to make it easier to get just for respawning

 

[Rizen]

This video has some good examples of 's combos being inconsistent and why he struggles to kill. Fair 2 wiffs, Fsmash 1 hits but 2 wiffs and YL dies for landing Fsmash, Dtilt connects but it's the outer hitbox and sends Ness at an angle that makes aerial upB wiff. I've also had people fall out of aerial upB. This is why it's better to simply kill with a strong hit like Wolf's Bair. It's hard enough to land these in the first place. Fortunately Supahsemmie's really good and pulls through anyway. He's a great YL to watch.

 

[FruitLoop]

Patch 6.0.0 Predictions:

Nerfs:

: Sorry ZSS players, but due to Ultimate's balancing mostly revolving around JAPAN's metagame and due to 's perception being significantly more positive in Japan, I'm quite certain she'll get toned down. The most obvious prediction is her infamous flip kick, it's a move that almost borderline hard carries the character as it gives a borderline overpoweredly good disadvantage state for getting out of every scenario while it's extremely high reward just makes the character a bit too taxing to continue to maintain the same tools in today's metagame. Neutral-Air might be nerfed to be less safe on shield but I don't think anything else of hers would really scream being anything too "problematic" yet.

: Personally I don't think needs big nerfs but due to the character's general dominance throughout the world including in Japan and the general complaints about Arsene I really wouldn't be surprised in this character either having their ability to gain arsene being harder or just by simply weakening Arsene. To what extent I wouldn't be sure.

: While isn't the most dominant character in Japan's meta from what I have seen due to her lack of popularity when compared to her other peers in Japan, it still is a pretty safe bet that she'll have at least some of her definitive option like her neutral-air to be less overdominant. I personally would nerf her overtly dominant moves (Neutral-Air, Forward-Air's absurd safety, etc.) in exchange for having a few improvements to her sometimes underwhelming normals (Make Up-Tilt hit shorter characters for example). Though honestly I think a neutral-air nerf where it would combo into itself a little weaker alongside having the move kill later is more than enough to make the move still great but nothing absurdly busted.


Buffs:

: I do believe that will for the most part most likely be changed somewhere down the road or even in 6.0.0. The character received a few buffs from patches already and due to tending to be viewed as one of the worst characters in the game, it makes a lot of sense for the character to get some needed buffs and for Nintendo to realize that.

: I think their issues with their Neutral-Air and Forward-Air and other multi hits not properly connecting with relatively bad hitboxes would probably be fixed either in this patch or later down in the road. both received buffs in the previous balance patches and Nintendo likes to fix certain issues within these types of character.

: Both characters essentially get buffs through patches almost every balance patch and due to both characters not being seen as particularly viable while no one plays either of these characters (OrionStats can't lie), they are probably going to get some balance changes.



: Another contender for the worst character in the game, due to the character just never being meta relevant in any sort of play, it again wouldn't be too suprising if Nintendo threw the King of the Kremlins some slack.


Misc:

: Probably going to get an Up-Smash buff again or something, idk if this character even deserves a complete buff but I just have a feeling that it'll be another Up-Smash buff lol.

: Nintendo is probably going to do a change to Luma that no one is going to actually understand until a few weeks later, what the change will be I don't know.

: Probably going to do another random change to Nana, likely to either fix a tech or accidentally break something.

: I think Nintendo is going to most likely change something about Hero's RNG or add visual indicators or something of the sort, just my general prediction.


Characters I'd Personally Change that haven't been talked about yet:

Buffs:

: Just make his side-special at least refresh after he gets hit, please sakurai? Also give him more usable aerials with more range that are safer on hit so his disadvantage is SLIGHTLY better at the very least

: Fix his blindspots on moves like Down-B, Fix Up-Smash, make people not fall out of Neutral-Air. himself is fine but the random hiccups present in the character is inexcusable

: Make rest kill please

: In general just make actually threatening, also maybe remove the jab infinite nearby ledge

: I know this character is supposed to have a bad recovery but COME ON this is ridiculous.

: Revert gravity to before so the character can autocancel fair.

: Actually stop nerfing this character for once and give him actual buffs since as of today's meta is incredibly subpar. Revert F-Smash to pre-3.0.0 where it shield breaks, also make inhale's reverse windbox and grab box work better and make Up-Air actually kill opponents properly (It can't kill some floaties at 140 unstaled with rage on the top of the stage with good DI).

: Make moves like Forward-Air actually kill and make the character a tad bit faster, just general nice QoL changes

: Make his moves safe on hit at low % for once in his life and BUFF. AERIAL. SPINNING. KONG. Oh yea and maybe SLIGHTLY tone down headbutt's hitbox it might be a little too big for a move with great reward but i think these buffs are more than enough to make up for it.

: Remove Rock-Crocking

: Fix blindspots like Plant Up-Air.

: Fix this character's shield please.

: Buff nair and make Finishing Touch's hits work. Possibly slightly tone down Up-B OoS but not entirely necessary

: Make her drag down Neutral-Air actually work

: Make the opponent not randomly fall out of multihits like Up-B and make Jab 2 work

: Make moves like Up-Air connect

: Give this character actual range and hitboxes please!

: It's been 5 patches and can still get randomly gimped out of his Up-B. I know it's not a major issue but it still shouldn't exist.


Nerfs:

: Nerf Up-B k thx.

: Waft shouldn't kill earlier than 's rest and that should be more than enough to make relatively reasonable. Also maybe fix his Neutral-Air to connect better at mid %

: Possibly increase base knockback of his back-air so he can't loop as easily.

: I think 's damage output is a bit too much for what the character does, I'd say to reduce the damage of float cancelled aerials is more than reasonable, especially if she gets to keep her down-tilt combos.

: Give grenades less range so swordfighters can actually hit snake with grenades with max spacing without getting hit. Also increase the startup of grenades to make 's disadvantage less obnoxious and possibly tone down nikhita.


Misc:

: Nerf tornado and remove the 0 to death confirms the character has in exchange for giving the character an actual recovery and maybe a little more air speed to have a bit more mixups in disadvantage, I think this is a mostly fair exchange.

 

[|RK|]

So, Pikachu. People have started to come around to the idea that he's potentially the best character in the game... But with Samsora's shots at ESAM earlier, it is true that no super top level player (read: top 10/15 across multiple games) uses the character besides ESAM.

Results naturally suffer for the char as a result (compared to "best in the game" status). So what keeps people from picking him up? I assume it's a Shulk thing where people assume the char is really difficult?

 

[Megamang]

I think the issue with Palutena isn't so much that she is the best, clearly the best, or has an unbeatable matchup spread... its that once you leave the top tier, she just outright demolishes anyone outside of top and maybe high tier. Like how many characters take 70% from a good nair, then get suffocated and eventually die to uair that their character has no real answer to?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Wish list for nerfs/buffs of chars I know something about (so only one character in total because I think Bowser and Ness are mostly fine as they are):

Buffs:

- Active frames of Nair should be increased
-> Reduces scenarios where opponent falls out and it can be used as a drag-down tool.
- Same buff to fSmash and uSmash: Opponent can still fall out and punish you for hitting them which wouldn't have happened otherwise

- SideB should travel faster and/or detonate closer to Zelda. Only good usage with edgeguards and even there it can still clank with any active hitbox.
-Less endlag of UpB when opponent doesn'T get hit by the 1st and 2nd hit
-Slightly faster running/dash speed
-Ftilt should be faster. It's almost completely outclassed by the also currently not-working fSmash

Ok, that's it. Nothing will happen to her in that regard.
In fact, I fear that Nayru will get nerfed because why not.

So, Pikachu. People have started to come around to the idea that he's potentially the best character in the game... But with Samsora's shots at ESAM earlier, it is true that no super top level player (read: top 10/15 across multiple games) uses the character besides ESAM.

Results naturally suffer for the char as a result (compared to "best in the game" status). So what keeps people from picking him up? I assume it's a Shulk thing where people assume the char is really difficult?

It's funny that Samsora picks on Esam for that. Who uses Peach on Samsora's level? No one, really. And Captain L isn't really worse than Zinoto or Mute Ace....
And S1, the best or 2nd best player in the Netherlands, started using Pikachu as well and has first results. He won a smaller Dutch tourney this weekend using Pikachu where Meru and iStudying also participated in.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Wish list for nerfs/buffs of chars I know something about (so only one character in total because I think Bowser and Ness are mostly fine as they are):

Buffs:

- Active frames of Nair should be increased
-> Reduces scenarios where opponent falls out and it can be used as a drag-down tool.
- Same buff to fSmash and uSmash: Opponent can still fall out and punish you for hitting them which wouldn't have happened otherwise

- SideB should travel faster and/or detonate closer to Zelda. Only good usage with edgeguards and even there it can still clank with any active hitbox.
-Less endlag of UpB when opponent doesn'T get hit by the 1st and 2nd hit
-Slightly faster running/dash speed
-Ftilt should be faster. It's almost completely outclassed by the also currently not-working fSmash

Ok, that's it. Nothing will happen to her in that regard.
In fact, I fear that Nayru will get nerfed because why not.

It's funny that Samsora picks on Esam for that. Who uses Peach on Samsora's level? No one, really. And Captain L isn't really worse than Zinoto or Mute Ace....
And S1, the best or 2nd best player in the Netherlands, started using Pikachu as well and has first results. He won a smaller Dutch tourney this weekend using Pikachu where Meru and iStudying also participated in.

I will be suprised if Nyru's gets nerfed considering that PK fire never got hit with the nerf hammer in all smash games

 

[|RK|]

I think the issue with Palutena isn't so much that she is the best, clearly the best, or has an unbeatable matchup spread... its that once you leave the top tier, she just outright demolishes anyone outside of top and maybe high tier. Like how many characters take 70% from a good nair, then get suffocated and eventually die to uair that their character has no real answer to?

Incidentally, it seems the lower tiers may have better success, seeing as Mac and Kirby have done oddly well against Palutena.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I will be suprised if Nyru's gets nerfed considering that PK fire never got hit with the nerf hammer in all smash games

That's true.
It's still one of the bigger "fears" considering how many people are complaining about that move.
But you're probably right.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I will be suprised if Nyru's gets nerfed considering that PK fire never got hit with the nerf hammer in all smash games

Actually PK Fire was nerfed in 4 from active on frame 18 to active frame 21. Thankfully they changed it back for active frame 18 in ultimate because even being frame 18 only makes the move still not what I would consider a powerful move (it’s useful and vital to some of his MUs). Only time anyone really complains about PK Fire or Naryu’s is online which shouldn’t play a factor due to the inherent latency issue with online.

 

[Cheryl~]

I think the issue with Palutena isn't so much that she is the best, clearly the best, or has an unbeatable matchup spread... its that once you leave the top tier, she just outright demolishes anyone outside of top and maybe high tier. Like how many characters take 70% from a good nair, then get suffocated and eventually die to uair that their character has no real answer to?

Exactly. Palutena may not have the greatest matchup spread against the tippity top tiers (Joker, Pika, Fox all do well against her for example) but the true toxicity of the character comes from her near-perfect matchup spread against any characters that aren't top tier. While top tiers have the options to get around moves like N-Air and B-Air (or have even deadlier punishes like Peach taking you to 60 or more off of a stray Down-Tilt that's pretty broken and not patched yet!), most of the other characters just can't get around it as easily, or in the case of big bodies, just can't get around getting N-Air combo'd at all. It's even gotten to the point where if a Ridley player takes Palu to Battlefield, they run the risk of getting infinite'd off of N-Air. While I personally don't think Palu is a Top 3 character like some people have been saying I do think that her tools are way too good at the moment and block so many characters from seeing success in a game that's supposed to be balanced enough for mid-tiers to have good tournament runs.

 

[Rizen]

I think the issue with Palutena isn't so much that she is the best, clearly the best, or has an unbeatable matchup spread... its that once you leave the top tier, she just outright demolishes anyone outside of top and maybe high tier. Like how many characters take 70% from a good nair, then get suffocated and eventually die to uair that their character has no real answer to?

I've been talking about how ridiculous is for a long time now. She probably has the best advantage state in the game with a huge Nair and Uair, DA/Bair that armors through attacks, good air acceleration and explosive flame kills. Even Lucina doesn't have all that. If you don't have great disadvantage tools she can outright wreck you.

The thing is, unlike her disadvantage is also very good. Warp is very difficult to punish because it goes 8 directions and slides after she reappears. So she's not balanced like other strong advantage characters.

Her neutral's alright but that's less important in this meta.

The simple answer to toning her down is nerf Nair; it's her all purpose win button. Maybe increase the lag and reduce the hitbox. At least Uair doesn't chain into it's self. Other than that you could decrease her kill power in general so she doesn't have quite as much reward.

While I'm at it, nerf 's Waft. Even at half charge it can kill you at 80% with the right positioning. Give it the Wolf's Dsmash treatment.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Geez when did Plautena become public enemy #1 all of a sudden. Becuase she finally win an A-S ranked major? Because tons of people were doubting was top 10 pre Nairo's win at Mainstage?

I guess that makes sense. It took that for Joker as well.

So what, Snake's DA/ up-tilt and Wario waft is fine now? Pearch and Olimar even post-nerf taking you from 0-70 in seconds is acceptable. But Plautena needs to be nerfed 3.0 Pichu style..

 

[Rizen]

Geez when did Plautena become public enemy #1 all of a sudden. Becuase she finally win an A-S ranked major? Because tons of people were doubting was top 10 pre Nairo's win at Mainstage?

I guess that makes sense. It took that for Joker as well.

So what, Snake's DA/ up-tilt and Wario waft is fine now? Pearch and Olimar even post-nerf taking you from 0-70 in seconds is acceptable. But Plautena needs to be nerfed 3.0 Pichu style..

I mentioned waft. The reason people are piling on Palutena is because she dodged the nerf hammer before. Peach and Olimar were already hit.