Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

Breaking News:

Remember when Nintendo accidentally leaked SNK's involvement in Smash Bros before Terry's reveal?

Well in a similar fashion....

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

What do you guys think Terry’s influence on the meta will be like?

 

[$.A.F.]

What do you guys think Terry’s influence on the meta will be like?

I know how everyone feels about judging a character before they come out, but I think he’ll be high-mid at least. A pretty fast character who probably has good CQC and has a decent projectile not to mention a side(?) special that’s a mobility tool seems really great to me. Now of course he could end up like pre patch Ken, but I doubt it.

 

[Heracr055]

Well I think Terry will be a character in the game. That's the extent of my prediction.

 

[Guynamednelson]

What do you guys think Terry’s influence on the meta will be like?

SNK fighters tend to be more complex than Super SF2 Turbo. This may mean Terry is better than the Shotos, but also more niche.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I have a hard time not beliving Terry wont have the simiar traditional input command for hus moves that Ryu and Ken have
Although Terry's Risiing Tackle which will most likely be his s up-b special has awlays been "charge move" in the same vien as so I dont know how that would work in Smash' mechanics.

 

[Rizen]

Every time a DLC character comes out I hold my breath and hope it's not another .

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Every time a DLC character comes out I hold my breath and hope it's not another .

Unpopular Opinion: Along with another character buffed to the level of bologna as & .

(I'm going to get crap for this, aren't I)

 

[ZephyrZ]

Every time a DLC character comes out I hold my breath and hope it's not another .

Part of the reason Bayo was so bad had to do with her being one of the last characters released. There was only one major patch after her release to balance her.

Even of Terry turns out to be super oppressive at first, they'll probably just be nerfed in a later patch. He's much more likely to be a then a . I'd be more worried when they announce the last fighter they choose to add, whoever that will be.

 

[Idon]

What do you guys think Terry’s influence on the meta will be like?

If he has the "always face opponent" mechanic and relies on inputs for his real damage, then he's probably not going to make huge ripples in the meta.

 

[Yonder]

Unpopular Opinion: Along with another character buffed to the level of bologna as & .

(I'm going to get crap for this, aren't I)

Marth made some impact again in 4, but Ken has been pretty quiet for someone who everyone thought was an "instant top tier".

Theory must = Practice for me. Ken is like, 30th which is decent but not top tier for me. Shulk,who used to be a meme about all potential no results is around 19th at least, proving his worth as an upper high tier (still don't think he's top).

Actually, no buffs in this game so far have made anyone shoot up tiers. Then there's Mewtwo, who has been given every buff in the book and has the 2nd worst results in the game.

Mewtwo isnt discussed much. How do we save him? Weight increase more? Give back his old d tilt and faster fair again? He got some nice stuff in this game (even faster dash, better teleport, better f tilt, f smash,d smash,disable ) what's gonna help?

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

I was a mew2 (and marcina) main in the previous game. I stopped using mew2 in this game because I don't find its damage output to be worthwhile enough to make up for not having a bs airdodge. That airdodge was HUGE for aerial combat; if you were to mash it, there would be merely 6 frames to punish it. You could use it to help edgeguard by airdodging the opponent's preemptive aerial and responding with you own. You could use it with appropriate timing to drift past the opponent and land. It gave you another option for getting off the ledge by letting go, double jumping, with an airdodge, and then potentially landing with a fastfall fair or even airdodging again. It was instrumental for alleviating the big body problem.

With the airdodge gone, I would expect mew2 to be able to do ridiculous things such as use a rising aerial like Palutena and convert it into 30%+ and an edgeguard/ledgetrap or have a bunch of moves that are strangely hard to challenge such as wolf. If mew2 has to get blown up so hard for getting touched, I would at least want to blow up the enemy just as hard. Simple combos like rising dtilt-nair-fair/bair or rising fair - fair don't work anymore because of hitbox changes and frame data nerfs.

Shadow ball can combo into moves like dash attack now. A fully charged one (probably near full charge too) can combo into dtilt or up tilt. Obviously you aren't going to be able to get these that often since you have to land a shadow ball, but they're nice changes nonetheless. Up tilt also has better combo utility, being able to consistently lead into up air/bair. Other moves gained some other buffs too, like disable's invincibility. These changes are nice and all, but they aren't what I'm looking for. If mew2 wasn't such a fragile character by having a better way to escape pressure, I might have been ok with these changes.

I know that I shouldn't try to play mew2 like it's still sm4sh. This is a new game, and mew2 is basically a new character. It's ok for characters to change, and not everyone has to be as absurd as snake or zss. I don't even think mew2 is a bad character, just one that brings nothing particularly notable to the table.

If the frame data on its aerials was restored (other than landing lag), I'd try mew2 again in a heartbeat. Or even if just bair were to become more disjoint along with a startup buff to make it a better walling move.

But hey, shulk is a blast in this game.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

M2 definitely would like his old Dtilt back but with the ability to use it out of dash I don’t think everyone else would like M2 to be able to use his S4 out of a dash.

I used M2 as a “unofficial” secondary. Never really used him in tournament or actual serious matches but he was my 2nd most used character. When I use Ultimate M2 he just feels so cumbersome compared to 4 M2. Everything he does feels like I’m putting myself in position to be hit back easily, when he is in the air he feels so vulnerable, he falls so slow and his hurtbox is just everywhere. Which is weird for him to feel this way as his movement stats are all quite high. I wonder if a fall speed buff would help with him to have the right “feeling”? He definitely has all the other stuff you want, combos, projectiles, edge guarding, etc.

 

[meleebrawler]

M2 definitely would like his old Dtilt back but with the ability to use it out of dash I don’t think everyone else would like M2 to be able to use his S4 out of a dash.

I used M2 as a “unofficial” secondary. Never really used him in tournament or actual serious matches but he was my 2nd most used character. When I use Ultimate M2 he just feels so cumbersome compared to 4 M2. Everything he does feels like I’m putting myself in position to be hit back easily, when he is in the air he feels so vulnerable, he falls so slow and his hurtbox is just everywhere. Which is weird for him to feel this way as his movement stats are all quite high. I wonder if a fall speed buff would help with him to have the right “feeling”? He definitely has all the other stuff you want, combos, projectiles, edge guarding, etc.

Fall speed is only little below average, it's his gravity that's pretty low, as is his air acceleration. Altogether means Mewtwo tends to hang in the air for a bit whenever he moves up or stalls himself, and typically need to use his specials to accomplish any weaving in the air. You also need to be good at managing the big, slow double jump to not go higher or stay in the air longer than you intend by cancelling it with specials. So he has high, but somewhat commital movement.

 

[Arthur97]

I have a hard time not beliving Terry wont have the simiar traditional input command for hus moves that Ryu and Ken have
Although Terry's Risiing Tackle which will most likely be his s up-b special has awlays been "charge move" in the same vien as so I dont know how that would work in Smash' mechanics.

I mean, he wouldn't be the first with a charging up special. Diddy comes to mind. Also could be like the Links where it charges on the ground, but not in the air.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Marth made some impact again in 4, but Ken has been pretty quiet for someone who everyone thought was an "instant top tier".

Bologna doesn't equal "instant top tier".
I'm talking how stupid early Heavy Shoryuken kills now and how it can be comboed into from already really high damaging combos, which is not a character being too OP problem, but more akin to Melee Wobbling and I just plain don't like it.

Mewtwo isnt discussed much. How do we save him? Weight increase more? Give back his old d tilt and faster fair again? He got some nice stuff in this game (even faster dash, better teleport, better f tilt, f smash,d smash,disable ) what's gonna help?

Honestly minus the tail hutbox, M2 is fine and really suffers more from being underplayed and unrepped which just happens to some characters in an 80+ sized roster.

 

[blackghost]

If he has the "always face opponent" mechanic and relies on inputs for his real damage, then he's probably not going to make huge ripples in the meta.

smash payers dont play characters with inputs. but ken is definitely a good character. ken doesnt struggle due to the turnaround mechanic. in fact it has proven to be a plus for the character not a negative. Ken biggest issue remains the learning curve, combating mobile opponents, and having a below-average neutral.
As a 2d fighter i'd expect him to always face his opponent. Every DLC character in ultimate has had to prove themselves. none on their face were seen by most of the community as being too good at launch. Even joker to this day is a conversation of viability. Hero and banjo are average at best.I think Terry has a much higher chance to be good than banjo or hero did due to coming from a fighting game with inherently more mobility than ken or ryu in Street fighter

As for meta impact, if he has Ken's combo game, damage, and KO potential or is CLOSE i expect to see him immediately see play but i also expect him to be far and away the most complicated DLC fighter from this season.
also KoF signature feature is that you play as three fighters at a time. there is a small chance that terry may work like the pokemon trainer and he may rotate through other fighters (hopefull Mai)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

smash payers dont play characters with inputs. but ken is definitely a good character. ken doesnt struggle due to the turnaround mechanic. in fact it has proven to be a plus for the character not a negative. Ken biggest issue remains the learning curve, combating mobile opponents, and having a below-average neutral.
As a 2d fighter i'd expect him to always face his opponent. Every DLC character in ultimate has had to prove themselves. none on their face were seen by most of the community as being too good at launch. Even joker to this day is a conversation of viability. Hero and banjo are average at best.I think Terry has a much higher chance to be good than banjo or hero did due to coming from a fighting game with inherently more mobility than ken or ryu in Street fighter

As for meta impact, if he has Ken's combo game, damage, and KO potential or is CLOSE i expect to see him immediately see play but i also expect him to be far and away the most complicated DLC fighter from this season.
also KoF signature feature is that you play as three fighters at a time. there is a small chance that terry may work like the pokemon trainer and he may rotate through other fighters (hopefull Mai)

Hah hah..yeah fat chance for Mai making physical appearance in Smash. I mean Bayonetta was initally a strech for sure but her quite pretty censored. Heck female Corrin outfit was even cenrored in Smash 4.

But Mai though..where to even begin considering what Nintendo would have to do with her.. I dont think she aint even going to be a Spirit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mean, he wouldn't be the first with a charging up special. Diddy comes to mind. Also could be like the Links where it charges on the ground, but not in the air.

In fighting games, charge inputs are holding one direction (back or down) for a period, then quickly flicking the opposite direction (forward or up) along with the button press. So a charge input for an up special would be something like down (hold) + up + b, which seems...awkward.

 

[Aaron1997]

資格勉強の時代は終わり
スマブラやっていきます pic.twitter.com/MoNasy73w6

— たいへいた/Taiheita (@Tihit212) October 31, 2019

BIG NEWS FROM JAPAN

Legendary Lucas player Taiheita is coming out of retirement. For people unaware, this is why this is a really big deal

1. Best Brawl and Smash 4 Lucas by a pretty big margin
2. 49th on smash 4 PGRv2 with a X-factor of 32nd, 58th all time
3. Ranked above... Fatality, Nietono, Kirihara, MVD, Darkshad (Top Smash 4 Ryu), Vinnie( Top smash 4 Sheik/brawl legend), Rich Brown( Top smash 4 Mewtwo), falln(Top smash 4 Rosa)
4. 17th at Smash Con 2016 with a game over Zero (Back when Zero was almost unbeatable), 5th at Umebura S.A.T
5. Wins on Marss, Abadango, Shuton, Choco, Nietono, 9B (Best Japanese Solo Bayo)
6. Was one half of a legendary Brawl/Smash 4 Doubles team with top Japanese Lucario player Gomamugitya.

This will be a big impact on Lucas and maybe a big impact on doubles if he and Goma get back together

 

[SwagGuy99]

Well I think Terry will be a character in the game. That's the extent of my prediction.

What a prediction. 100% accurate.

資格勉強の時代は終わり
スマブラやっていきます pic.twitter.com/MoNasy73w6

— たいへいた/Taiheita (@Tihit212) October 31, 2019

BIG NEWS FROM JAPAN

Legendary Lucas player Taiheita is coming out of retirement. For people unaware, this is why this is a really big deal

1. Best Brawl and Smash 4 Lucas by a pretty big margin
2. 49th on smash 4 PGRv2 with a X-factor of 32nd, 58th all time
3. Ranked above... Fatality, Nietono, Kirihara, MVD, Darkshad (Top Smash 4 Ryu), Vinnie( Top smash 4 Sheik/brawl legend), Rich Brown( Top smash 4 Mewtwo), falln(Top smash 4 Rosa)
4. 17th at Smash Con 2016 with a game over Zero (Back when Zero was almost unbeatable), 5th at Umebura S.A.T
5. Wins on Marss, Abadango, Shuton, Choco, Nietono, 9B (Best Japanese Solo Bayo)
6. Was one half of a legendary Brawl/Smash 4 Doubles team with top Japanese Lucario player Gomamugitya.

This will be a big impact on Lucas and maybe a big impact on doubles if he and Goma get back together

Finally. has had the potential this entire time and someone is finally going to show it off (as long as he plays Lucas). He has almost everything someone in Ultimate's engine might want:

• Top 5 edgeguarding in the game.
• Multiple recovery options that are all very good.
• Multiple kill throws.
• Best directional air dodge in the game (tied with Ness)
• A fast, long ranged grab (think Luigi's grab but functions more like a traditional z-air and has some cool combos that can be done as well).
• Great combos.
• Strong kill options.
• Great juggling.
• Decent disjoints and safe options (for a pseudo-close-ranged fighter at least)
• Good zoning tools.
• PSI Magnet to deal with projectiles.
• Decent matchups vs both Snake and Pikachu.

The only big things that he lacks are big enough weaknesses to keep him in check though as his ground movement isn't that good and he gets out-ranged by sword attacks (Marth, Lucina, Corrin, Robin etc.) and long ranged attacks/disjoints (Bowser, DK, Dedede) kind of hard.

Hopefully Tahiti can do something cool with him, he's a hype character to watch with a lot of interesting things he can pull off.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Rizen i guess we just talk about different scenarios. I talk about some specific stuff while you talk about it in generaland i don't really agree there with you either. Let's just say that we both have a opinion.when discussions get to heated thats not good for me.

About the oos: you said frame3 is good and links frame7 oos that kills is bad. I said frame6-7 oos is good thats why i was able to bring whirling fortress in since it falls into that good catogory.

Speaking of oos what do you guys think are some of the better oos besides the obvious ones everyone knows of? (like gnw, bowser, zss)

 

[KirbySquad101]

I don't hear it being talked a lot, which is odd, but 's Climhazzard is extremely underrated as far as OoS options go; it's only slightly slower than 's Whirling Fortress (frame 7 instead of 6), but it does absurd damage for its speed (18.9%), is fairly hard to space against, and can surprisingly tricky to punish given that Cloud can either descend immediately or hang in the air, which can especially work in his favor if he does it below a platform. I would honestly say it's probably top 5 as far as OoS options go.

's Air Slash and 's Soaring Axe Kick are also pretty underrated as OoS options. They're about his fast as 's Soaring Slash (frame 10), so they are a little on the slow side, but the range on both attacks is absurd (which is very bizarre in the case of the latter), and their kill power is not to be underestimated. I've seen a little bit of Mii Brawler from HLB, and the amount of mileage he gets off of the move is insane.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Rizen i guess we just talk about different scenarios. I talk about some specific stuff while you talk about it in generaland i don't really agree there with you either. Let's just say that we both have a opinion.when discussions get to heated thats not good for me.

About the oos: you said frame3 is good and links frame7 oos that kills is bad. I said frame6-7 oos is good thats why i was able to bring whirling fortress in since it falls into that good catogory.

Speaking of oos what do you guys think are some of the better oos besides the obvious ones everyone knows of? (like gnw, bowser, zss)

Marcina's Dolphin Slash. Its not safe of course but its fast and a is a kill optiom around 130-140 ercent roughly. Its basically a quicker but lest powerful ZSS boost-kick.

Yeah Cloud's limitless Climhazzard being a better Oos option is few things that has improved since Smash 4. Does not exactly make up for everything that was nerfed though.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Marcina's Dolphin Slash. Its not safe of course but its freaking frame 1 and a is a kill move around 120 percent roughly. Its basically a quicker but lest powerful ZSS boost-kick.

It's invincible in the air on frame 1. On the ground it's invincible on frame 4. For both it hits on frame 5.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It's invincible in the air on frame 1. On the ground it's invincible on frame 4. For both it hits on frame 5.

Opps i got the data mixex up. Still an underatted and undersued option though.

 

[Rizen]

About the oos: you said frame3 is good and links frame7 oos that kills is bad. I said frame6-7 oos is good thats why i was able to bring whirling fortress in since it falls into that good catogory.

Are you serious? I just explained last post that I never said that. My exact words were: "OoS upB is good but not great." When I say good it doesn't mean bad it means good.

I'm through with this.

 

[Aaron1997]

I was looking around and I end up running into this. Yes I know this is Wifi but that's not the point. The point is that Lucas has Tech and Mixups out of the Wazzu.

 

[Rizen]

I was looking around and I end up running into this. Yes I know this is Wifi but that's not the point. The point is that Lucas has Tech and Mixups out of the Wazzu.

I just played a Lucas in bracket tonight and can agree he's got some good stuff going for him. Lucas is scary if you're offstage because his PKT can knock you at weird angles and PKFreeze is stupidly OP. I had it kill Link off the side of SV at 80%. His hitboxes are not bad either; they're deceptively large and he's a little guy. I underrated him before but IMO he's upper mid tier.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I literally played that Lucas at a Hitpoint tournament.

His movement is definitely nothing I would dismiss, clearly knows what he's doing.

His usage of zair is quite impressive, too. It chains into itself and comboes into another grab.

Blucas is a good player, and it's easy to be intimidated by his show of lucas.

However, that movement didn't mean much when you realise....it's more flashy than anything.

If you take it slow, you realise he actually isn't doing much of anything, and you will not fall for the tricks as often after a while.

I also for shield poked by PK Freeze from UNDER my shield.....

 

[Diddy Kong]

Marth made some impact again in 4, but Ken has been pretty quiet for someone who everyone thought was an "instant top tier".

Theory must = Practice for me. Ken is like, 30th which is decent but not top tier for me. Shulk,who used to be a meme about all potential no results is around 19th at least, proving his worth as an upper high tier (still don't think he's top).

Actually, no buffs in this game so far have made anyone shoot up tiers. Then there's Mewtwo, who has been given every buff in the book and has the 2nd worst results in the game.

Mewtwo isnt discussed much. How do we save him? Weight increase more? Give back his old d tilt and faster fair again? He got some nice stuff in this game (even faster dash, better teleport, better f tilt, f smash,d smash,disable ) what's gonna help?

I think it's more or less the nature of Ultimate that makes people not prefer to play as Mewtwo. It's real weird. Guess he just gets hit a lot more, and that's of course bad news for him. Weight buff would be cool, and decrease of overall hit box size on the head, hips and tail maybe.

Or you know, just turn him into Pokémon RBY Mewtwo.

 

[SwagGuy99]

However, that movement didn't mean much when you realise....it's more flashy than anything.

If you take it slow, you realise he actually isn't doing much of anything, and you will not fall for the tricks as often after a while.

It is flashy, but it does make it goes a long way to make Lucas's movement less predictable.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The main event for this weekend is Return to Yoshi's Island, the sequel to SSB4's Escape from Yoshi's Island, which is a B tier event.

Notable Attendees:
Tweek
Dabuz
Sinji
Mr E
Frozen
Suarez
UtopianRay
Venia
Juuuuul
Stocktaker69
Kofi
Ralphie
PkChris
Raptor

 

[Lacrimosa]

Tweek's tier list:

My current tier list.

Ordered it the best I could. pic.twitter.com/o9Fwhc6pQ6

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) November 1, 2019

Can't really spot weird thing except that awful Sheik placement.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Tweek's tier list:

My current tier list.

Ordered it the best I could. pic.twitter.com/o9Fwhc6pQ6

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) November 1, 2019

Can't really spot weird thing except that awful Sheik placement.

I personally think Bowser might be a bit too low, same with Lucina. Diddy Kong is also fairly high up for someone with hardly any results and it's not as if we have ZeRo anymore to prove he's really good. Unless there's some Japanese Diddy I don't know about.

 

[New_Dumal]

Marth is in such a strange spot now.
MkLeo advanced what people thought about the character but because he spoken that Lucina is probably better and will favor using her, it's possible to people keep him as a mid tier (as Tweek did), where I personally don't think he belongs). The character probably won't be buffed, since his potential is so clear, but more people need to pick him up.

Bowser also have much better results than MK. MK needs help.
I think everyone Tweek lists until Game And Watch are a bit better than the others below.
I'd include a new tier with Pichu and the others high tiers, plus Bowser and Marth. The famous "not sure, but maaaybe viable" tier.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

My inital thoughts

Mario and ZSS swap spots om the lisr
Olimar and Shulk exchamge spots im high-tier.
Wario and Lucina moved top-Tier
Sheik, Diddy and DH to down ro top end mid-tier.
Bowser move to high where those 3 are around.

 

[KirbySquad101]

If the list is talking long-term, then I can possibly see being high tier, depending on VoiD's dedication to the character. He's been on a bit of a rocky streak lately with poor placements at both Glitch 7 and Summit, but I feel like that can be more or less chalked up to VoiD's general inconsistency as a player rather than his actual character choices.

should at the very least be in the lower half of high tier; LeoN may not be massacring people like he used to, but he still has been a consistently strong player this season, and I don't recall any point this season where he flubbed, compared to other high level players anyone.

seems WAY too low, especially considering that Japan has been pretty much taken over by ZSS.

seems a bit too low as well. She may not be the most represented characters out there, Joker and quiK have had really strong strides with the bounty hunter this season.

Seeing that high is a first-time thing (for me), but it's actually not too far off from his OrionStats ranking (#9, I believe?). I'm not sure if I can buy him being that high given that there hasn't been a single Mario that's been consistently phenomenal this season, but I don't think him being a top tier or even top 10 is outside the realm of reality if we're considering just how valuable his strengths are.


There's a few other things you could nitpick at (like / being too high for the umpteenth time or being plopped in mid tier yet again), but most of said things are generally common across other tier lists. It looks like a fairly solid list all things considered, however. I'm honestly just relieved there's a top level player out there that actually recognizes how good is.

 

[Rizen]

Tweek's tier list:

My current tier list.

Ordered it the best I could. pic.twitter.com/o9Fwhc6pQ6

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) November 1, 2019

Can't really spot weird thing except that awful Sheik placement.

all should be in top tier.

Tweek, and the general consensus, has teetering on the bottom edge of high tier. I've tried a lot of different tactics but it always ends up the same: YL sucks vs faster, bigger disjoints. His sword's short, in the air it has big diagonal blindspots, and his frame data is comparable to Hero's, except for Nair but Nair loses to bigger disjoints. YL does pretty good vs characters without disjoints or without good mobility but he has too many bad MUs. Bombs can be caught with any standard attack and all his projectiles lose to hitboxes. Then there's the factor of his combos being inconsistent. I've had people fall out of Fsmash, aerial spin attack and jab can be easily DIed. Dtilt has an outer hitbox that can't be comboed from and Fair1>land often pops players up too much for Dtilt to connect so it's very % strict and differs with different characters. The more I play him, the more the 32nd spot on Orion Stats looks fitting.

 

[KakuCP9]

Re Tweek's list:

Character with good oos options, mobility, disadvantage/ recovery , top tier neutral, great projectile and handful of combos/kill confirms is considered a good character by top players. More at 11.

Also I feel like I'm having a fever dream with players other than ESAM are putting Pika in the broken tier in a game other than Smash 64.