Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Impax]

I swear to God if quik traveled more soooo many Americans would hate Samus.

Yeah, I mean there really isn't an elite level Samus player in the states.
Mexico has joker, Japan has YB and Germany has Quik.
The best US player is advo maybe ?

 

[Rizen]

What's the general perception of / by that point in time?
.

We have a really good in my region. Samus is a strong, upper mid tier. She excels at mid range combat with a long tether grab, Zair and charge shot, which can combo at low %s and kill at high ones. Missiles are meh but I think she has shield break setups with them and CS. She has decent kill power but won't be taking stocks at low %s like some of the top tiers. Screw attack's a really good OoS option at frame 4. Although she has a fast f3 jab, she's somewhat clumsy in CQC with a big hurtbox and poor combos from standard attacks (correct me if I'm wrong). Her main weakness is she's not as outrageous as top tiers. She won't be comboing you for days or killing early. Samus plays more of a zoning game.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

That set between Nairo and Maister was super back and forth. It seemed like anyone was making a comeback.

However Maister seemed not try DI Palu's d-throw to aviod the potental bair kill. Nairo was getting a lot of free stocks from that.

Nairo goes on the WF to face the winner of MKLeo and Samsora.

Also Tea definetly figured out the Fox MU after the total thrashing he recived from Light the last faced

 

[KirbySquad101]

There was that, and Maister had no clue how to answer against Nairo’s ledge pressure, particularly DTilt; either way, Palutena is continuing to prove she’s the ultimate high tier killer.

Nairo 3-1s Maister

 

[DunnoBro]

That set between Nairo and Maister was super back and forth. It seemed like anyone was making a comeback.

However Maister seemed not try DI Palu's d-throw to aviod the potental bair kill. Nairo was getting a lot of free stocks from that.

Nairo goes on the WF to face the winner of MKLeo and Samsora.

Also Tea definetly figured out the Fox MU after the total thrashing he recived from Light the last faced

Characters with poor air acceleration have a much tougher time dealing with dthrow > bair. It's doubly annoying because if you DI away, but it's still true (But otherwise wouldn't kill) you die due to said DI.

 

[The_Bookworm]

MkLeo 1-3 Samsora
Maister 3-1 ESAM (out at 5th)

 

[KirbySquad101]

If I recall correctly, has the highest base air acceleration and is tied for the 9th highest air acceleration, so I don't think DI'ing DThrow->BAir would be too much of an issue for Maister.

Speaking of G&W, after losing game 3, ESAM decides to go for the switch...? Not that it wasn't a good option, but I was honestly expecting . That said, he did surprisingly well game 4 with his counterpick.

 

[SwagGuy99]

There was that, and Maister had no clue how to answer against Nairo’s ledge pressure, particularly DTilt; either way, Palutena is continuing to prove she’s the ultimate high tier killer.

And that's really what she is: a high tier killer that can't deal with characters better than her with a few possible exceptions ().

She is one of the worst matchup for a several high/mid tiers as well () which is another reason that she's as good as she is.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

And so Nairo's sthick of essentially intentionally handicapping himself vs game 1 against Samsora finally comes back to bite him and hard. Seriously Nairo you may have just cost yourself the entire Summit

 

[Rizen]

She is one of the worst matchup for a several high/mid tiers as well () which is another reason that she's as good as she is.

This is interesting. Personally I don't find to be an especially bad MU for ; imo it's even. Why is she so bad for ?

 

[DunnoBro]

If I recall correctly, has the highest base air acceleration and is tied for the 9th highest air acceleration, so I don't think DI'ing DThrow->BAir would be too much of an issue for Maister.

Speaking of G&W, after losing game 3, ESAM decides to go for the switch...? Not that it wasn't a good option, but I was honestly expecting . That said, he did surprisingly well game 4 with his counterpick.

Right, I guess it's an air speed thing, not air acc. I do know one effects horizontal combos a lot (like dthrows)

 

[KirbySquad101]

First 2 games, Maister got clapped pretty hard by MKLeo's ; he made a really strong comeback games 3 and 4 when he slowed the pace of the game down and broke neutral with 's Dash Attack as a burst option. And then MKLeo busted out the , and once MKLeo caught on how much Maister used Dash Attack to chase him/how badly he wanted his stock, it was curtains from there.

MKLeo 3-2s Maister to eliminate him at 4th place. Major props to Maister, though, he got much closer to beating MKLeo than he ever has prior.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

And what did i say earlier?

MKLeo 3-1 Nairo Nairo unintenionally gave game 2 away as well.

Nairo out at 3rd. Mostly becuause he wanted to be memey.

 

[Rizen]

And what did i say earlier?

MKLeo 3-1 Nairo Nairo unintenionally gave game 2 away as well.

Nairo out at 3rd. Mostly becuause he wanted to be memey.

What did Nairo do?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What did Nairo do?

He and Samsora agreed to switch mains game one of their set. So Nairo played Peach and Samsora played Palutena.

Samsora won that game although it was pretty close. It not obvious throw-away as like..picking Gannondorf or DK game 1..but think of the difference of execution and ease of play between the two characters. He still basically handicapped himself for the first game. It finally came back to bite him.

In short some very, very questionable choices and descisions could have very well cost him the Summit.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think the commentators were probably right when they said that MKLeo's Game 2 steal crushed Nairo's spirit. At that point, Nairo pretty much handed MKLeo game 4.

What did Nairo do?

During their second game, Nairo tried going for a deep edgeguard against MKLeo in a last stock situation when he had a 150% lead; he ended up paying dearly for it, as shortly afterwards MKLeo stole his stock at 30% due to a Tetrakan counter followed up by a Arsene DAir spike.

 

[Idon]

Goddammit, Leo's dropping Marth.

There goes the only Marth representation we've seen since launch, lol.

 

[Yonder]

Goddammit, Leo's dropping Marth.

There goes the only Marth representation we've seen since launch, lol.

Sadly, no point in Marth when Lucina straight outclasses him and Marth is costing Leo games.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Smash Ultimate Summit 2 Results:

1. MKLeo
2. Samsora
3. Nairo
4. Maister
5. ESAM
5. Tea
7. Light
7. zackray
9. Dabuz
9. Leffen
9. MuteAce
9. Marss
13. RFang
13. VoiD
13. Tweek
13. Armada

Some interesting notes to take this tourney, starting with the biggest trend I noticed:

- There was a LOT of character switching/secondaries this time around. With the exception of RFang, Light, Leffen, Armada, and Maister, pretty much everyone switched to a different character at some point, even character specialists such as ESAM, Tea, and Samsora. Even a while back, Prodigy had been wanting to pick up to deal with 's tough match-ups, and VoiD has been wanting to pick up a top tier to cover up match-ups or have a hard time dealing with. There are so many match-ups to consider in this game, moreso than in any other Smash game. With that in mind, players coming across some match-ups (like / vs , or vs ) that are just too stressful not to use a pocket/secondary for is really starting to look like an inevitability in the long run. At this rate, the only high level players I can see NOT picking up a secondary later on are Armada and Dark Wizzy; in Armada's case, he's already made his stance on using secondaries a while back, and in DW's case, it seems like he loves Mario too much to invest time in any other character.

- Quite a decent chunk of players' "mains" for were on the back burner for this tournament. Despite his best efforts to make work, it ended up almost costing MKLeo the tournament, with his taking up the helm to take out most of the high level players remaining in his way (Samsora, Maister, Nairo). VoiD barely used at all this tournament, instead opting mostly for , and he only ended up winning one game with Sheik the entire tournament. zackray actually ended up winning more games with this tournament (7, one against Light, 3 against RFang and MuteAce) than either his (only 3, 1 against Dabuz, Marss, and Tweek respectively) or (4, 2 against Tweek and 2 against Marss). Even his almost ended up winning as much games as his R.O.B., winning 2 against ESAM.

- Just when we think we have MKLeo's figured out, he pulls out a new toy, this time the integration of Joker's guns. He utilized them to a great degree in terms of edgeguarding out characters like , but they actually did wonders in tacking on quite a bit of chip damage in order to force an approach out of players like Maister or Samsora. And downwards spiral Gun actually looks REALLY hard to contest when Joker's falling down with it, especially since it can lead to a possible confirm. Honestly, Joker is kind of starting to look like in the sense that there always something new being figured out about the character that really starts to make me think he may just be a teeeeeeennssssyyy bit overturned. I don't want to go into a discussion of nerfs and I don't want to take away anything from MKLeo (congrats to him on getting the win from the loser's side), but after watching the crazy versatility of Joker's neutral special on top of everything else we've seen prior, I'm not really sure if MKLeo's success with Joker can be chalked up ONLY to the big man himself. Then again, this IS only one tournament, and I might just be assuming things, so we'll see what happens in the future.


It does suck to see that a few people have been a little dissuaded in terms of faith in their characters, but this was a really fun event. Definitely one of the craziest for sure.

There isn't much left in terms of major PGR events before the season wraps up; we'll be getting another Umebura major in a couple of weeks, and after that, only 2GG: Kongo Saga remains.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

To be regarding the vs MU. Maister actullay did pretty good vs Nairo. He almost even made a big comeback game 4. G&W does have some tools that can give Palu trpublevup-b and up air that is effective vs Palu. Plus as i mentiomed be was not have the best DI for those d-throws.

But speaking of Nairo. I cannot help but state hefl threw his chance at winning this Summit more than once. First it was the his little game of intentionally handicapping himself on the first game vs Samsora finally comimg back to bite him. 2nd was that very unfortuate vs game 2 vs MKLeo due to getting a bit too greedy.

 

[PK Gaming]

especially since it can lead to a possible confirm. Honestly, Joker is kind of starting to look like in the sense that there always something new being figured out about the character that really starts to make me think he may just be a teeeeeeennssssyyy bit overturned. I don't want to go into a discussion of nerfs and I don't want to take away anything from MKLeo (congrats to him on getting the win from the loser's side), but after watching his Marth struggle this tournament when it mattered most, I'm not really sure if MKLeo's success with Joker can be chalked up ONLY to the big man himself. Then again, this IS only one tournament, and I might just be assuming things, so we'll see what happens in the future.

Well, I wouldn't use Marth's aggressive mediocrity as a springboard for that specific argument considering the character demonstrably held him back.

I feel confident in making the assertion that Marth isn't remotely good for high-level play in this game.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Well, I wouldn't use Marth's aggressive mediocrity as a springboard for that specific argument considering the character demonstrably held him back.

I feel confident in making the assertion that Marth isn't remotely good for high-level play in this game.

Yeah, I decided to retract that statement, mainly because I didn't want to make it seem like MKLeo's being carried by Joker; that, and comparing Marth to Joker isn't a very fair comparison in the grand scheme of things.

It does sting to hear his stance regarding Marth for future counterpicks, primarily because between Ultimate Fighting Arena and his practice sessions, he looked so close to finding the magic formula to make Marth's tippers consistent. Then he landed Dancing Blade about 6 times against Maister this tournament and he couldn't even get a single tipper off of it. I'm hoping this doesn't spell the end of Marth's development in the meta.

To be regarding the vs MU. Maister actullay did pretty good vs Nairo. He almost even made a big comeback game 4. G&W does have some tools that can give Palu trpublevup-b and up air that is effective vs Palu. Plus as i mentiomed be was not have the best DI for those d-throws.

But speaking of Nairo. I cannot help but state hefl threw his chance at winning this Summit more than once. First it was the his little game of intentionally handicapping himself on the first game vs Samsora finally coming back to bite him. 2nd was that very unfortuate vs game 2 vs MKLeo due to getting a bit too greedy.

Maister was actually able to keep it fairly close for the most part, but a few unfortunate mishaps (Palutena's UAir straight-up beating out key and the reversal spike) alongside Maister's misplays (improper DI off of throws, predictable ledge get-ups) did lead to Nairo's victory. If Maister works more on his ledge get-up play and his overreliance on key in disadvantage, he can probably shine even more in the future.

I definitely think it was the Game 2 steal from MKLeo that sealed Nairo's fate; from what I've noticed, a characters' ability to steal stocks/leads almost instantly does wonders to a player's mental state. I've seen so many players look so distressed/upset when they get killed at 0% due to a zero-to-death Waft combo from , or lose a stock at 20% due to a grab-to-Judge 9 set-up from . Nairo probably felt the same when lost game 2 even though he had such an impressive lead.

 

[Minordeth]

Y’all are wild.

“Marth is so much worse than Lucina”

- Lucina and Marth have the same frame dafa

- he and Lucina have functionally the same shield safety

- Marth has the same combo game as Lucina, but sour spot hits allow for a wider percent range of those same combos

- He also has access to combos Lucina doesn’t have (and vice versa but not to the same degree).

“Well, Marth has such a hard time killing if he doesn’t land a tipper!”

- Fortunately, Marth has multiple confirms into tipper hits (Sour Uair -> tipper Fsmash as an example) and can kill quite efficiently with Ftilt and Nair 2.

- Coincidentally, people seem to forget Lucina can struggle to kill too. Protobanham’s loss to Samsora featured the lighter Peach regularly living to 150%+

- Neither character excels when they have to go fishing

“Well, tippers aren’t consistent!”

- Marth doesn’t always want to get a tipper in the first place.

- They are about as consistent as they have always been. Very little has changed beside KB adjustments to (both character’s) Fair.

“They changed the priority of Marth’s tippers so that the sour spots now take priority!”

- His sour spots have always taken priority, unless you are referencing Melee Marth Dair, and then, okay.

“Uh, Dancing Blade tipper is hard to hit!”

- So, instead of a rhythm mini-game landing a DBF4, now it’s a spacing and timing mini-game.
It’s not that hard to hit. It does, however, require practice.

“Marth is worse tho!”

Nah. But a lot of confirmation bias makes it seem that way.

“MKLeo is dropping him! That proves he’s bad!”

Or he just feels more confident with Lucina. Or Joker.

Leo progressed really quickly with Marth at the top level, but he still missed stuff relating to kill set-ups and DB timing, beyond having some habits that he got in trouble for.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Japanese Wifi Ladder:

Sumamate (JP wifi ladder) Season 7 final standings
1 YB (D Samus) 2200
2 Rido (Link) 2115
3 Ru-tuchan (Palutena) 2103
4 Ron (Yoshi) 2102
5 Teku (Cloud) 2076
6 Tachibana (PT) 2054
6 Yakiimokun (DK) 2054
8 akasa (Joker) 2046
9 Shuton (Olimar/Shulk) 2026
10 Ayapero (Palutena) 2024

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) October 27, 2019

Looks like is on the rise everywhere

 

[The_Bookworm]

Japanese Wifi Ladder:

Sumamate (JP wifi ladder) Season 7 final standings
1 YB (D Samus) 2200
2 Rido (Link) 2115
3 Ru-tuchan (Palutena) 2103
4 Ron (Yoshi) 2102
5 Teku (Cloud) 2076
6 Tachibana (PT) 2054
6 Yakiimokun (DK) 2054
8 akasa (Joker) 2046
9 Shuton (Olimar/Shulk) 2026
10 Ayapero (Palutena) 2024

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) October 27, 2019

Looks like is on the rise everywhere

YB has been at the top (or at least near the top) of Japan latter for a long while.

However, quiK's great performance at Syndicate is definitely a big boon for the character.

As for Marth's meta, I have already seen some players outside of Leo adopt the character ever since Leo's performance in Europe with the character, so I am foreseeing that the character will definitely see more use as his meta advances.

 

[Arthur97]

Y’all are wild.

“Marth is so much worse than Lucina”

- Lucina and Marth have the same frame dafa

- he and Lucina have functionally the same shield safety

- Marth has the same combo game as Lucina, but sour spot hits allow for a wider percent range of those same combos

- He also has access to combos Lucina doesn’t have (and vice versa but not to the same degree).

“Well, Marth has such a hard time killing if he doesn’t land a tipper!”

- Fortunately, Marth has multiple confirms into tipper hits (Sour Uair -> tipper Fsmash as an example) and can kill quite efficiently with Ftilt and Nair 2.

- Coincidentally, people seem to forget Lucina can struggle to kill too. Protobanham’s loss to Samsora featured the lighter Peach regularly living to 150%+

- Neither character excels when they have to go fishing

“Well, tippers aren’t consistent!”

- Marth doesn’t always want to get a tipper in the first place.

- They are about as consistent as they have always been. Very little has changed beside KB adjustments to (both character’s) Fair.

“They changed the priority of Marth’s tippers so that the sour spots now take priority!”

- His sour spots have always taken priority, unless you are referencing Melee Marth Dair, and then, okay.

“Uh, Dancing Blade tipper is hard to hit!”

- So, instead of a rhythm mini-game landing a DBF4, now it’s a spacing and timing mini-game.
It’s not that hard to hit. It does, however, require practice.

“Marth is worse tho!”

Nah. But a lot of confirmation bias makes it seem that way.

“MKLeo is dropping him! That proves he’s bad!”

Or he just feels more confident with Lucina. Or Joker.

Leo progressed really quickly with Marth at the top level, but he still missed stuff relating to kill set-ups and DB timing, beyond having some habits that he got in trouble for.

Yeah, but, the problem with the Marth is just as good arguments lie in the fact that no one can really prove it. In theory Marth might be as good, but in practice, he hasn't proven he is. Until someone achieves similar success with him, it remains an unproven claim.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Too me, characters like Samus have proven to me that they're good but Marth still has to do that
Only because they're a zoner character that relies on projectiles doesn't mean it's a mere gimmick. You can't get in with them but you've to fight from afar, so they aren't creating that much hype. Quik's Samus was also titled as Spamus yesterday which suggests that she isn't acknowledged as a good or at least solid character.

 

[Rizen]

Quik's Samus was also titled as Spamus yesterday which suggests that she isn't acknowledged as a good or at least solid character.

Projectile zoners are often discriminated against in social media comments by people who don't know how to play against them. There even was the universal projectile nerf. They're clearly not dominating the meta or OP.

 

[|RK|]

Y’all are wild.

“Marth is so much worse than Lucina”

- Lucina and Marth have the same frame dafa

- he and Lucina have functionally the same shield safety

- Marth has the same combo game as Lucina, but sour spot hits allow for a wider percent range of those same combos

- He also has access to combos Lucina doesn’t have (and vice versa but not to the same degree).

“Well, Marth has such a hard time killing if he doesn’t land a tipper!”

- Fortunately, Marth has multiple confirms into tipper hits (Sour Uair -> tipper Fsmash as an example) and can kill quite efficiently with Ftilt and Nair 2.

- Coincidentally, people seem to forget Lucina can struggle to kill too. Protobanham’s loss to Samsora featured the lighter Peach regularly living to 150%+

- Neither character excels when they have to go fishing

“Well, tippers aren’t consistent!”

- Marth doesn’t always want to get a tipper in the first place.

- They are about as consistent as they have always been. Very little has changed beside KB adjustments to (both character’s) Fair.

“They changed the priority of Marth’s tippers so that the sour spots now take priority!”

- His sour spots have always taken priority, unless you are referencing Melee Marth Dair, and then, okay.

“Uh, Dancing Blade tipper is hard to hit!”

- So, instead of a rhythm mini-game landing a DBF4, now it’s a spacing and timing mini-game.
It’s not that hard to hit. It does, however, require practice.

“Marth is worse tho!”

Nah. But a lot of confirmation bias makes it seem that way.

“MKLeo is dropping him! That proves he’s bad!”

Or he just feels more confident with Lucina. Or Joker.

Leo progressed really quickly with Marth at the top level, but he still missed stuff relating to kill set-ups and DB timing, beyond having some habits that he got in trouble for.

Your first two points apply to Mario and Dr. Mario.

As for the rest, the point is that as hard as it is for Lucina to kill, it's harder for Marth. You can't just discount things like Dancing Blade being harder to connect properly with "now it's a spacing and timing minigame that you need to practice."

The point is that Lucina is outright superior in high pressure situations. She can go offstage and slap people with bair and kill. She doesn't need this precise setup from non-tipper to tipper - she just flows regardless. In S4, after ZeRo picked her up, many people put Lucina right next to Marth on tier lists. In the end, Marth won out because despite his difficulty, he was able to kill way more easily.

Now, Lucina kills easier AND is easier to play. It's only natural that Marth would fall beneath her. If you're putting in all this effort and still killing at roughly the same time or later, why even bother?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Quik's Samus was also titled as Spamus yesterday which suggests that she isn't acknowledged as a good or at least solid character.

Samus is definitely high tier, not top, but very threatening in this game with an excellent matchup spread. One major misconception about the character is that she's a projectile zoner. On the Samus discord we quite literally spend a large fraction of the time telling new players that zoning is not the path to victory, to the point where people have made videos explaining how 60 frame endlag projectiles do not a zoner make. She's a hybrid, mid-range brawler. The projectiles are used to access combos and kill confirms. She dents shields with Super missiles then shield pokes for full combo or nair kills.

None of the top Samus players fully utilize her meta. YB's neutral game is the best, Joker's combo game the best and Quik is somewhere in between. Ignore top player opinions, this character is deep and very strong, she will only go up with more representation and the initial difficult to master neutral is the major problem with getting more reps.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Y’all are wild.

“Marth is so much worse than Lucina”

Well that's just the community overacting to everything in general.

 

[SwagGuy99]

This is interesting. Personally I don't find to be an especially bad MU for ; imo it's even. Why is she so bad for ?

The reflector kind of destroys their projectile games and not only that, but Palu is also faster than them and can edgeguard them a lot better than other characters can.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Yes palu 70+ frames faf counter destroys their rpojectile game.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Palutena definitely wins, but it isn't because of Counter; I don't recall a time when Nairo used it against a Pac-Man player. Based off of Nairo's sets against Sinji and Tea, I came up with a few possible reasons:

- Palutena easily has the edge in terms of air acceleration and ESPECIALLY ground mobility, which doesn't give Pac-Man a lot of time to start setting up his usual shenanigans involving Fire Hydrant. There's that, and pretty much all of Palutena's aerial buttons either outrange or just straight up beat most of Pac-Man's best CQC buttons; with both issues combined, it's very easy for Palutena to start overwhelming Pac-Man almost instantly. In Nairo's set against Tea, Tea couldn't even drop a Fire Hydrant without Nairo sucking out all the space that Pac-Man mains need to make the most of their zoning gameplay.

- Palutena's aerial attacks safe poke Pac-Man's shield from a distance, particularly FAir and BAir; in other words, an OoS NAir/Pac-Jump will rarely hit Palutena if ever, even on block.

- It's hard for Pac-Man to start going on the offensive against Palutena: More often than not, OoS NAir will beat out Pac-Man's best rising aerial options (particularly FAir). Pac-Man's below average movement also makes it hard for him to start approaching Palutena because Autoreticle and Explosive Flame both stop the yellow sphere right in his tracks, especially Autoreticle.

- NAir pretty much snuffs out any attempt Pac-Man makes to get away from Palutena via jumping; EVERYTIME Tea tried to get Nairo off him with a SH FAir, either A: Nairo would block it and punish it immediately afterwards with an NAir (frame 8 OoS btw), or B: Nairo would have him cornered and force a jump out of him, which would lead to an NAir read stopping Tea in his tracks before he would even input the FAir.

- Even when there IS a gap between Pac-Man and Palutena, Pac-Man STILL isn't safe from Palutena because Explosive Flame is free pressure, goes through Fire Hydrant (and laughs in its face unlike most other projectiles), and on top of everything else, hits like a truck. In other words, anytime Palutena isn't all up in Pac-Man's face, she's choking him from a distance with an extremely hard hitting projectile that's also very hard to punish if you're too busy trying to set-up your zoning to notice.

It's not impossible for Pac-Man (Sinji is actually way better at the match-up compared to Tea), but it's definitely an uphill battle, and I can see why Tea made the switch; the match-up is far more manageable as .

 

[Ziodyne 21]

With the Execption of Olimar, becuase hes Olimar.

Plautena seems to counter many of methodical or setup heavy characters. Onethat dont want to start engaging unless they have the right item or other specific combination thier kit to set up thier maximum damage combos or kill comfirms. and possibly if you count Waft stalling or evasion.

I am noticing from Tea's Play is that Pac-Man does depend quite a bit on his tricky setups . Like the neutral B projectiles (Namely Bell) and sneaky Hydrant shenanigans to take stocks most of the time. Tea is just good enough to make it make it look much easier than it likely is

 

[Megamang]

The combination of fair nair and bair just covers damn near everything for Palu. She has her insane combo nair, that has the multi hit benefits and a pretty damn good hitbox for a nair. She has fair, which is a quick poke that starts her advantage game off and has pretty decent range... its really bair that brings her up a level in my mind, the shield mechanic is amazing. Call outs are just peachy when you can just negate the enemy hitbox, and getting bair'd by palu is rough at any percentage.

I feel like Palu more than anyone is really really hard to abuse as a character, you simply have to outplay the player. Which isn't a bad thing!


Her ground game is noted as weak, but i'm not convinced. Again, the shield mechanic is huge here. Dash attacks are great for bashing in to zone break, and dash attack cuts through e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g. I struggle vs Palu as greninja, because if she calls out the fair dash attack can just bash in. Nairo had a few moments where he really wanted a dash attack and started using them back to back, and he is the guy that realizes your patterns and just wants you in disadvantage and this move is incredible for that. But more than that, you just have to respect it at all times. Its the glue for palu, otherwise you could be pretty sure that she is gonna jump and stuff her, but if you try to stuff her and get dash attacked its going to win against most options.

Oh, and not to mention dash grab is pretty strong, especially since Palu is in a great spot when she gets a grab. AND uair is... well, uair is a giant spreading killing hitbox that can beat GaW Key, and its fast enough to leave you in disadvantage even if you dodge by it.

... Does she have any drag down combos? I would imagine she's no joker in this situation, but getting a grab from the uair would be cool.


---

re: Olimar. I know it looks janky, but honestly im ok with it. I think we get caught up because we are used to smash attacks having X range... But it really doesn't *not* make sense, I mean olimar sends out pikmin to attack you, if he does the attack the pikmin attacks you, if you get hit by it you get hit! On the other hand, it is an aerial smash so =\. Maybe if the pikmin is in the air it should do an aerial? Thats probably beyond what they would change in a patch.

Myran is learning how these interactions work and is making consistent use of it, or at least performing it relatively consistently. I mean he knew that would happen there. Not sure if thats good or bad for the game, but its not RNG and I know how we feel about RNG

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Along with what was said about Pac-Man with the Villy MU with a fair bit applying but I can see the fact Villy is constantly jumping so he can have access to his most important moves not named side b and jumping is the last thing you should do against Palu unless you want to get taken to 50 off one nair I can see why that MU is challenging.

I think the idea of Palutena being the top tier gatekeeper is pretty solid. She’s just a trouble MU for so many characters it reminds me of how people always mentioned Pikachu being trouble for their characters in S4. The character just has everything you want.

Also have you seen some of her hitbox? Mostly on her most notorious moves? Generous is how I would describe it.

https://ultimateframedata.com/palutena.php

 

[PK Gaming]

Y’all are wild.

“Marth is so much worse than Lucina”

- Lucina and Marth have the same frame dafa

- he and Lucina have functionally the same shield safety

- Marth has the same combo game as Lucina, but sour spot hits allow for a wider percent range of those same combos

- He also has access to combos Lucina doesn’t have (and vice versa but not to the same degree).

“Well, Marth has such a hard time killing if he doesn’t land a tipper!”

- Fortunately, Marth has multiple confirms into tipper hits (Sour Uair -> tipper Fsmash as an example) and can kill quite efficiently with Ftilt and Nair 2.

- Coincidentally, people seem to forget Lucina can struggle to kill too. Protobanham’s loss to Samsora featured the lighter Peach regularly living to 150%+

- Neither character excels when they have to go fishing

“Well, tippers aren’t consistent!”

- Marth doesn’t always want to get a tipper in the first place.

- They are about as consistent as they have always been. Very little has changed beside KB adjustments to (both character’s) Fair.

“They changed the priority of Marth’s tippers so that the sour spots now take priority!”

- His sour spots have always taken priority, unless you are referencing Melee Marth Dair, and then, okay.

“Uh, Dancing Blade tipper is hard to hit!”

- So, instead of a rhythm mini-game landing a DBF4, now it’s a spacing and timing mini-game.
It’s not that hard to hit. It does, however, require practice.

“Marth is worse tho!”

Nah. But a lot of confirmation bias makes it seem that way.

“MKLeo is dropping him! That proves he’s bad!”

Or he just feels more confident with Lucina. Or Joker.

Leo progressed really quickly with Marth at the top level, but he still missed stuff relating to kill set-ups and DB timing, beyond having some habits that he got in trouble for.

Your heart's in the right place, but relying on snuck premises to make a point weakens your overall argument.

Everyone is aware that Lucina and Marth have the same frame data, safety on shield* and combo routes. Listing it out like that only serves to mislead people into thinking they've "missed" something about Marth. But here are the facts:

1) Lucina has better tournament results
2) With the exception of MKleo*, Lucina is played by more top players
3) The best player in the world dropped him, despite going out of his way to make use out of him

But even if you ignore the data, I think you're massively underselling Marth's issues at KOing overselling the effectiveness of his confirms. Matches can significantly swing in one player's favor when they build a lead, and Marth is in a terrible position since he can't force a KO. Maister had a much easier time against Marth's tilts once he (his words) "stopped jumping"

 

[blackghost]

shoutouts to shadow PR for putting on the best Bayonetta performance of 2019. he placed second at First Attack. SWith no lima in sight and purity also somewhat on break, he appears to be the best bayo player. He lost to Eking (pacman) in GF. he beat ling ling (peach), sharpy (inecenaroar) , xenon( yoshi), xeon zero (daisy). Not a high ranking event but let me have this.

beating two peaches at a tournament with a low tier is nothing to sneeze at. although every match he won it was pretty evident that the opposing player's bayonetta experience and knowledge (not to mention the commentators) had very little understanding of what was going on. Im not just talkingdi on combos but there was clearly a lack of understanding on what bayonetta's options or goals in any given situation were. Bayo is a very linear character on stage there isnt much to watch out for.
also ban lylatt agianst her that hasnt changed.

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

So are you just going to ignore my post providing literal video evidence debunking your claims or.....

Of course he will. He’s an internet trolll trying to derail the thread.

For me it’s gotta be in order:

No or ? I’m curious. Why not?