Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Arthur97

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Your heart's in the right place, but relying on snuck premises to make a point weakens your overall argument.

Everyone is aware that Lucina and Marth have the same frame data, safety on shield* and combo routes. Listing it out like that only serves to mislead people into thinking they've "missed" something about Marth. But here are the facts:

1) Lucina has better tournament results
2) With the exception of MKleo*, Lucina is played by more top players
3) The best player in the world dropped him, despite going out of his way to make use out of him

But even if you ignore the data, I think you're massively underselling Marth's issues at KOing overselling the effectiveness of his confirms. Matches can significantly swing in one player's favor when they build a lead, and Marth is in a terrible position since he can't force a KO. Maister had a much easier time against Marth's tilts once he (his words) "stopped jumping"
Why is point two phrased like that. Even if he is the best, MKLeo is still one top player. Why does it need to be stated that he is an exception? More still play Lucina. It's not an exception, it's simply a statement.
 

DunnoBro

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No :ultsnake: or :ultjoker:? I’m curious. Why not?
Snake has a few really awkward (not necessarily bad but definitely disrupt his consistent bracket progression) matchups against Psi Boys, Megaman, Inkling, etc due to his highly linear playstyle that they can play around well. (Or inkling just being able to grab and kill him)

Joker because he's wrong.
 

sleepy_Nex

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@
... Does she have any drag down combos? I would imagine she's no joker in this situation, but getting a grab from the uair would be cool.


---
Yes she has but they are only true at percebtages at which the move would kill anyway.

Also y'all overstimating nair hitbox a bit too much. Probably the only char thar can't beat/trade with an airial is mac. Non disjointed stuff like mario bair gets through. I even get beaten out by a wolf nair coming from above sometimes. Nair is mostly a catching tool. It catches your jump before you swing.

Maybe i'll write up something adressing some things that got mentioned this and last page tomorrow after work
 
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NotLiquid

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On the note of MKLeo/Marth, he's picking Lucina back up (co-main?), Cosmos also got a set win over him at last night's MSM.

 
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Idon

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On the note of MKLeo/Marth, he's picking Lucina back up (co-main?), Cosmos also got a set win over him at last night's MSM.

fe fates sad marth.png

Welp, guess it's official now.

At the very least, he's shown that Marth is at least more powerful than most people have been giving him credit for.

The boosted ftilts and the walling he did against Maister seemed almost downright oppressive, on top of the occasional low-percent tipper and the weak-projectile cancelling blade making him seem even competitive with the rest of the top tiers.
At least it did until he had to fall-back on Joker when the going went rough.
 
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$.A.F.

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Of course he will. He’s an internet trolll trying to derail the thread.



No :ultsnake: or :ultjoker:? I’m curious. Why not?
Personally and I know this is a hot take, but I think Snake is severely overrated. Like severely, severely overrated. Ever since the ban of [NAME REDACTED] his results at top level play have not been indicative of a top 5 character whatsoever. His tools are still stupid af in a lot of cases, but his disadvantage is still very exploitable, and he also has bad matchups against quite a few mid and low tiers. Plant, Hero, Isabelle etc. actually go even or win. Even in top tier and gate keeper territory he isn’t dominant. Joker wrecks him, he gets roughed up pretty badly by Fox, and he takes the L to the rats as well. In high tier he doesn’t do well against the PK kids either. As people have gotten better, Snake has done worse and worse. Maybe I’m biased because this happened before in Brawl, but Snake is falling off IMO.
Joker for me is different. I get the argument that “it’s only Leo” is getting old, but it really kind of is. Tweek didn’t improve by using the character, VoiD didn’t improve from using the character, Zackray does do well, but the character has remained worse than his ROB or his Wolf. Nobody is coming close to Leo with the character. Palutena has a ridiculous amount of high/top level reps. Zero Suit Samus has basically half of Japan plus Marss. Olimar uncommon and weird as he is has Shuton and Dabuz. Peach has MuteAce, Lingling, and Samsora. Wario has Tweek and Glutonny. Joker is still a top tier, but I can’t put someone who has one rep destroying everyone over characters with multiple reps destroying everyone.
 

Lacrimosa

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Since the bigger tournaments are over (and there's isn't that much to talk about )and everybody lists their Top/Bottom 5:

Top 5 (ordered) and 10 (unordered because it's hard): :ultpeach::ultpalutena::ultpikachu::ultjoker::ultinkling:(:ultwolf::ultfox::ultgreninja::ultlucina::ultwario:)
HM: :ultmario::ultgnw::ultpacman::ultchrom::ultroy::ultsnake:

Really struggling to put Snake here. He's been on the decline since Ally left the scene and MVD's results vary a lot. There's still Salem, but it seems that Snake players still need time to even get close to Ally's level, if they can even achieve it. Or the other players simply caught up to Snake's item play which is more likely. If it's really the latter then he will remain in high-tier but not in top-tier and I think that's where he's going to.


Bottom 5 (starting from worst) and 10 (unordered): :ultisabelle::ultkrool::ultjigglypuff::ultkirby::ultcorrinf:(:ultlittlemac::ultganondorf::ultincineroar::ulticeclimbers::ulthero:)
Not really honorable mentions: :ultdk::ultdoc:
 
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Goodstyle_4

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Can we finally put to bed the fantasy of Marth only being slightly worse than Lucina? I swear to God if I have to hear that argument one more time I'll pull my hair out. "Why's he 2 tiers lower!? They have the same frame data!" is a bad argument when one of the characters is deeply inconsistent and much easier to play around. All it takes is a couple of games to adapt to Marths tippers, as eSAM, Maister, and now Larry demonstrated. He's not a real character in the way Lucina is, he's a gimmick you have to play around.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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Zackray does do well, but the character has remained worse than his ROB or his Wolf.
Is it though? He beat Tweek and Marss with the Joker at Summit. In fact his Joker did better against Marss than his ROB did, despite him using it to success against Choco a couple of times, so I don't know how much of it is a matchup advantage.
 

KakuCP9

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For me, what separated Marth and Lucina's kit was not Marth's dancing blade shenanigans (though hit me up when science finds out to make that stuff reliable) but rather his ledge-trapping potential since while he doesn't vortex people to death like some characters, his disjoints and mobility allow him to cover or respond to any ledge option with little risk and tippers allow him higher reward than Lucina. Plus since the opponent is at a set position when choosing a ledge option, it removes a variable in landing tippers namely the opponent's position.
But even if the opponent is borderline impossible to ledge-trap (i.e Pika, maybe Wii fit), his neutral game will still carry him through matchups since he can diffuse a lot of attempts to pressure him neutral with up-b coupled with his low commitment pokes, he can assert his positional advantage and control space until it results in a kill.
Though the frustrating thing is I'll swear up and down that Marth is good, I don't have much in the way of getting someone using him over Lucina (unless they chug that Luci being boring kool aid they end up using Marth for clout) and thus it ends up one of those cases of 'is it better to be terrible/remembered vs competent/forgettable ' and I end up arguing against Marth being half of the former while the latter isn't any better and functionally the same in context of a competitive game.
 
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Arthur97

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When even the best player in the world gives up on him (apparently twice now), can you really argue that Marth is as good as Lucina? If he gave up, what can the others hope to do with him?
 

The_Bookworm

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OrionStats got updated yet again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

Not too many changes have occurred, but here are the notable things:
:ultpalutena: made it over :ultsnake: as 3rd in the stats.
:ultzss: made it over :ultmario: as 8th in the stats.
:ultcloud: has surprisingly been able to obtain steady results, resulting in him rise to 29th. I think more Cloud players have begun to abuse up B OoS lately.
:ultrosalina: has rose to 31st in the stats, mostly thanks to Homika's performance at Syndicate.
:ultluigi: has dropped down to 34th, mostly due to Elegant's (and other Luigi players') rather scattered attendance in tournaments.
:ultbanjokazooie: keeps rising ever so further in the stats, now being 43rd. The rapid growth of Banjo in the stats this month have been quite interesting to see.
:ultike: is beginning to recover from his lack of results earlier this season ever so more. He is now at 48th, directly below fellow FE character :ultrobin:.
:ultkingdedede: after steadily dropping the stats for over a month, Dedede has finally gotten a nice boost to 53rd in the stats, tied with :ulticeclimbers:.
:ultincineroar: is only seeing more rare play. We have seen Tea's Incineroar do some work in Squad Strike, but the character's reps have been pretty minimal. As a result, it is now at 71st, now being tied Jigglypuff as the third lowest ranked character in the stats.


Some stat occurrences that has me rather confused:
:ultgnw: still remains at 27th place. This is rather confusing considering Maister's incredible performances in tournaments, Zackray's use of G&W lately, and numerous other new G&W players that has spawned in lower levels of play. Despite this, he remains ranked under characters like Sonic, Pichu, and Shulk.
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: hasn't really changed positions from last time. They still remain at around the 38-41st positions (currently 40th). This is rather confusing considering quiK's incredible performance at Syndicate. I thought that would make her at least above characters like Link and the Belmonts.
:ultsheik: remains steady at 45th place. This is also a rather confusing occurrence, as Sheik has remained around this position ever since Mainstage, which is over a month ago now, despite VoiD being the only real proprietor of the character (who doesn't even solo-main her). I kind of doubt that his performances alone would make her maintain that positioning, especially since it hasn't really changed since then, so I am curious if there are other proprietors of Sheik that are getting enough performances to maintain her position, because I am not seeing it.
 

Impax

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OrionStats got updated yet again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

Not too many changes have occurred, but here are the notable things:
:ultpalutena: made it over :ultsnake: as 3rd in the stats.
:ultzss: made it over :ultmario: as 8th in the stats.
:ultcloud: has surprisingly been able to obtain steady results, resulting in him rise to 29th. I think more Cloud players have begun to abuse up B OoS lately.
:ultrosalina: has rose to 31st in the stats, mostly thanks to Homika's performance at Syndicate.
:ultluigi: has dropped down to 34th, mostly due to Elegant's (and other Luigi players') rather scattered attendance in tournaments.
:ultbanjokazooie: keeps rising ever so further in the stats, now being 43rd. The rapid growth of Banjo in the stats this month have been quite interesting to see.
:ultike: is beginning to recover from his lack of results earlier this season ever so more. He is now at 48th, directly below fellow FE character :ultrobin:.
:ultkingdedede: after steadily dropping the stats for over a month, Dedede has finally gotten a nice boost to 53rd in the stats, tied with :ulticeclimbers:.
:ultincineroar: is only seeing more rare play. We have seen Tea's Incineroar do some work in Squad Strike, but the character's reps have been pretty minimal. As a result, it is now at 71st, now being tied Jigglypuff as the third lowest ranked character in the stats.


Some stat occurrences that has me rather confused:
:ultgnw: still remains at 27th place. This is rather confusing considering Maister's incredible performances in tournaments, Zackray's use of G&W lately, and numerous other new G&W players that has spawned in lower levels of play. Despite this, he remains ranked under characters like Sonic, Pichu, and Shulk.
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: hasn't really changed positions from last time. They still remain at around the 38-41st positions (currently 40th). This is rather confusing considering quiK's incredible performance at Syndicate. I thought that would make her at least above characters like Link and the Belmonts.
:ultsheik: remains steady at 45th place. This is also a rather confusing occurrence, as Sheik has remained around this position ever since Mainstage, which is over a month ago now, despite VoiD being the only real proprietor of the character (who doesn't even solo-main her). I kind of doubt that his performances alone would make her maintain that positioning, especially since it hasn't really changed since then, so I am curious if there are other proprietors of Sheik that are getting enough performances to maintain her position, because I am not seeing it.
Not attacking Orion stats but how do they ensure they are updated with correct results. They are pretty clear with what tournaments they use but at the same time it can be hard to gather accurate data about those events as many players dont post who they used on Twitter.
 

NotLiquid

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Some stat occurrences that has me rather confused:
:ultgnw: still remains at 27th place. This is rather confusing considering Maister's incredible performances in tournaments, Zackray's use of G&W lately, and numerous other new G&W players that has spawned in lower levels of play. Despite this, he remains ranked under characters like Sonic, Pichu, and Shulk.
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: hasn't really changed positions from last time. They still remain at around the 38-41st positions (currently 40th). This is rather confusing considering quiK's incredible performance at Syndicate. I thought that would make her at least above characters like Link and the Belmonts.
:ultsheik: remains steady at 45th place. This is also a rather confusing occurrence, as Sheik has remained around this position ever since Mainstage, which is over a month ago now, despite VoiD being the only real proprietor of the character (who doesn't even solo-main her). I kind of doubt that his performances alone would make her maintain that positioning, especially since it hasn't really changed since then, so I am curious if there are other proprietors of Sheik that are getting enough performances to maintain her position, because I am not seeing it.
None of these are confusing if you observe trends over raw usage. Sonic's results have by and large been fairly consistent thanks to players like KEN and Sonido's continued performance with the character since the beginning of the second phase (which incidentally now has him at a marginal improvement since Phase 1, a relatively undocumented story considering no one really talks about Sonic anymore) whereas G&W has only recently begun having Maister consistently attending and outperforming in several majors. The fact that he's lagging behind now is just statistical noise given the point disparity when he's going to overtake those characters before too long assuming Maister continues to attend tournaments.

Same goes for Samus. quiK may have placed 2nd at Syndicate but you neglect to point out that Greil - a Belmont main - placed fourth at that same tournament, and the point margin between those positions at a Category 4+ is fairly negligible which essentially cancels out any positional rise she may have had. Sheik being where she is can be easily attributable to the fact that below her level the activity among characters remains muted and relatively unobserved. OS is a good data tool but these are the kind of minute observations that are pretty disposable in the bigger picture.
 
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Rizen

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Smash Ultimate Summit 2 (16 entrants)
13. Tweek :ultwario:||:ultpokemontrainer:

Tweek's really been dropping off lately. He was a top 2 player last season but others have been catching up and we're seeing players like Nairo, Samsora, Mars and maybe Tea and Maister potentially pass him. He still pulls top 10 results but he's not top of the pack anymore.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Smash Ultimate Summit 2 (16 entrants)
13. Tweek :ultwario:||:ultpokemontrainer:

Tweek's really been dropping off lately. He was a top 2 player last season but others have been catching up and we're seeing players like Nairo, Samsora, Mars and maybe Tea and Maister potentially pass him. He still pulls top 10 results but he's not top of the pack anymore.

I think Tweek really needs to either fully commit to either Wario or PT , orcpissiy even another character if he wants to keep the same success and momentum he has before season 2 Began.

Even in Smash 4 Tweek did best when he primarly mained Cloud then Bayo while keeping possibly one character for a MU or player CP
 

Strong Badam

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I am not fully surprised by Tweek's dip in results, if I'm not mistaken he moved out from the LoFT in Ohio at some point (if I recall, near the end of last season or beginning of this season) back to New Jersey. So, not only did moving take a lot of time/effort where he wasn't able even practice or attend tournaments (during which other players were catching up), he also isn't able to grind Smash with high level housemates like he used to. Couple that with a couple Ivysaur nerfs and a brief stint with Banjo & Kazooie, Tweek's got some soul searching to do. I do think that Pokemon Trainer suits him very well.

Ziodyne 21, what you say about Cloud & Bayo is true, but those were also by far the best characters in the game. Tweek wouldn't get the same value out of hard-committing to a character unless they were similarly more powerful than other characters. Joker's the closest bet but we've seen multiple characters able to contend/deal with him (common opinion indicates Pika/Pichu/Mega Man at least beating Joker slightly).

Tweek's one of my fav players so I'm hoping he bounces back :)
 

Lacrimosa

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OrionStats got updated yet again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

Not too many changes have occurred, but here are the notable things:
:ultpalutena: made it over :ultsnake: as 3rd in the stats.
:ultzss: made it over :ultmario: as 8th in the stats.
:ultcloud: has surprisingly been able to obtain steady results, resulting in him rise to 29th. I think more Cloud players have begun to abuse up B OoS lately.
:ultrosalina: has rose to 31st in the stats, mostly thanks to Homika's performance at Syndicate.
:ultluigi: has dropped down to 34th, mostly due to Elegant's (and other Luigi players') rather scattered attendance in tournaments.
:ultbanjokazooie: keeps rising ever so further in the stats, now being 43rd. The rapid growth of Banjo in the stats this month have been quite interesting to see.
:ultike: is beginning to recover from his lack of results earlier this season ever so more. He is now at 48th, directly below fellow FE character :ultrobin:.
:ultkingdedede: after steadily dropping the stats for over a month, Dedede has finally gotten a nice boost to 53rd in the stats, tied with :ulticeclimbers:.
:ultincineroar: is only seeing more rare play. We have seen Tea's Incineroar do some work in Squad Strike, but the character's reps have been pretty minimal. As a result, it is now at 71st, now being tied Jigglypuff as the third lowest ranked character in the stats.


Some stat occurrences that has me rather confused:
:ultgnw: still remains at 27th place. This is rather confusing considering Maister's incredible performances in tournaments, Zackray's use of G&W lately, and numerous other new G&W players that has spawned in lower levels of play. Despite this, he remains ranked under characters like Sonic, Pichu, and Shulk.
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: hasn't really changed positions from last time. They still remain at around the 38-41st positions (currently 40th). This is rather confusing considering quiK's incredible performance at Syndicate. I thought that would make her at least above characters like Link and the Belmonts.
:ultsheik: remains steady at 45th place. This is also a rather confusing occurrence, as Sheik has remained around this position ever since Mainstage, which is over a month ago now, despite VoiD being the only real proprietor of the character (who doesn't even solo-main her). I kind of doubt that his performances alone would make her maintain that positioning, especially since it hasn't really changed since then, so I am curious if there are other proprietors of Sheik that are getting enough performances to maintain her position, because I am not seeing it.
About Belmonts: Greil, who co-mains Richter and Wolf made 4th place at Syndicate. So there isn't much reason why Samus would catch up to them.
 

The_Bookworm

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Yeah, I kind of forgot about Greil's performance with Richter at Syndicate, so my bad.

NotLiquid's post does bring up something that is my head for a while: I am noticing that quite a bit of the mid-low/low tier characters, outside of maybe a few sparks of results, are beginning to lag behind the higher tiered, and even upper-mid/solid mid tiered, characters as time goes on. Characters like DK, the Miis, Incineroar, Corrin, Dr. Mario, and Ganondorf have been falling down in opinion in the current metagame due to how stagnate they are.

On the other hand, Bowser Jr. and PPlant, two characters that were once common contenders for bottom 5 a few months back, are feeling the full positive affects of this trend in conjunction of getting more consistent results since then. Little Mac, to a lesser extent, is also a winner of this effect.
 

Ziodyne 21

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I am not fully surprised by Tweek's dip in results, if I'm not mistaken he moved out from the LoFT in Ohio at some point (if I recall, near the end of last season or beginning of this season) back to New Jersey. So, not only did moving take a lot of time/effort where he wasn't able even practice or attend tournaments (during which other players were catching up), he also isn't able to grind Smash with high level housemates like he used to. Couple that with a couple Ivysaur nerfs and a brief stint with Banjo & Kazooie, Tweek's got some soul searching to do. I do think that Pokemon Trainer suits him very well.

Ziodyne 21, what you say about Cloud & Bayo is true, but those were also by far the best characters in the game. Tweek wouldn't get the same value out of hard-committing to a character unless they were similarly more powerful than other characters. Joker's the closest bet but we've seen multiple characters able to contend/deal with him (common opinion indicates Pika/Pichu/Mega Man at least beating Joker slightly).

Tweek's one of my fav players so I'm hoping he bounces back :)

Well to maybe correct myself. I shoudl say that its probally super hard to be consistient at the highest competive level of play in this game. The only player who won or at leaat monwins or placed top 8. Multiple A-S level touraments is of course MKLeo. Bit evrn MKLeo isnt not likely to have like a 45+ major wim-streak like ZeRo acomplished in his?Smash 4 prime period.
.Other top players like Tweek Marss, Samsora, Nario etc have had certian peaks but have not matched Leo's level of consistency.

I mean the characters considered the best im this game still dont hold a candle to how dominat Bayo and Cloud, as well ad pre-nerfed Diddy and Sheik were in smash 4, and there is leas of a gap imbetween tiers alltougheter
 
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KirbySquad101

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OrionStats got updated yet again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

Not too many changes have occurred, but here are the notable things:
:ultpalutena: made it over :ultsnake: as 3rd in the stats.
:ultzss: made it over :ultmario: as 8th in the stats.
:ultcloud: has surprisingly been able to obtain steady results, resulting in him rise to 29th. I think more Cloud players have begun to abuse up B OoS lately.
:ultrosalina: has rose to 31st in the stats, mostly thanks to Homika's performance at Syndicate.
:ultluigi: has dropped down to 34th, mostly due to Elegant's (and other Luigi players') rather scattered attendance in tournaments.
:ultbanjokazooie: keeps rising ever so further in the stats, now being 43rd. The rapid growth of Banjo in the stats this month have been quite interesting to see.
:ultike: is beginning to recover from his lack of results earlier this season ever so more. He is now at 48th, directly below fellow FE character :ultrobin:.
:ultkingdedede: after steadily dropping the stats for over a month, Dedede has finally gotten a nice boost to 53rd in the stats, tied with :ulticeclimbers:.
:ultincineroar: is only seeing more rare play. We have seen Tea's Incineroar do some work in Squad Strike, but the character's reps have been pretty minimal. As a result, it is now at 71st, now being tied Jigglypuff as the third lowest ranked character in the stats.


Some stat occurrences that has me rather confused:
:ultgnw: still remains at 27th place. This is rather confusing considering Maister's incredible performances in tournaments, Zackray's use of G&W lately, and numerous other new G&W players that has spawned in lower levels of play. Despite this, he remains ranked under characters like Sonic, Pichu, and Shulk.
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: hasn't really changed positions from last time. They still remain at around the 38-41st positions (currently 40th). This is rather confusing considering quiK's incredible performance at Syndicate. I thought that would make her at least above characters like Link and the Belmonts.
:ultsheik: remains steady at 45th place. This is also a rather confusing occurrence, as Sheik has remained around this position ever since Mainstage, which is over a month ago now, despite VoiD being the only real proprietor of the character (who doesn't even solo-main her). I kind of doubt that his performances alone would make her maintain that positioning, especially since it hasn't really changed since then, so I am curious if there are other proprietors of Sheik that are getting enough performances to maintain her position, because I am not seeing it.
To elaborate on what NotLiquid said, :ultsonic: earned himself a nice hefty 13 points alone thanks to KEN's 4th placement at Umebura SP6. While Maister and zackray did well with :ultgnw: at Summit, I don't think it was enough to keep up with KEN's massive success with the character.

A few other things I picked up on:

- :ultlink: and :ulttoonlink: continue to wrestle for the 2nd best Link spot, as after Toon Link surpassed him earlier, Link has now a hefty 15-point leap above him at 38th place, courtesy of Izaw's, Otakuni's, and T's recent success with the character, while Toon Link once again sits at 41st place. :ultyounglink: continues to outplace both by a pretty fair margin, and is still able to maintain a fairly solid spot, thanks to Kobe and supashimmie. If Toon Link is going to go on to become the best Link like some players claim he will, we haven't seen it yet.

- :ultshulk: has fallen about 3 spots down from his 19th place. With kome's and Nicko's successes taking a slight backseat for now, It sounds like we're back to the status quo for the character.

- :ultduckhunt: continues to lag behind, now sitting behind :ulthero: and :ultdiddy:. It doesn't help matters that as good as Raito is, he has been focusing a fair share of efforts with :ultbanjokazooie:, and from the looks of things, it won't be enough for the duo to keep up. :ultzelda: is also suffering similar issues as well, who's sorely missing Ven's appearances at big events at the moment.

- Interest in :ultcorrin: is completely dead atm. I think this is the 4th week in a row now where Corrin is still at 1.5 points?

- It's good to see :ultike: slowly climb up back on his feet again thanks to Ryuga who has recently won a C Tier event with the character. After how much he was struggling prior, it seems like Ryuga's starting to find his footing again.

There isn't much left in terms of major tournaments, outside of Kongo Saga, Umebura SP7, and a few others. Outside of a few switcheroos, it looks like most characters' spots have been generally cemented for this season.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Germany
- :ultduckhunt: continues to lag behind, now sitting behind :ulthero: and :ultdiddy:. It doesn't help matters that as good as Raito is, he has been focusing a fair share of efforts with :ultbanjokazooie:, and from the looks of things, it won't be enough for the duo to keep up. :ultzelda: is also suffering similar issues as well, who's sorely missing Ven's appearances at big events at the moment.


There isn't much left in terms of major tournaments, outside of Kongo Saga, Umebura SP7, and a few others. Outside of a few switcheroos, it looks like most characters' spots have been generally cemented for this season.
Well, she'll get some points (hopefully) this weekend. Maybe?
I don't know if GameTyrant Expo is at least a C-tier event. Cosmos and Stroder are participating at least.

Is there a (good) website where you can check the tier of upcoming tournaments?
 

Rizen

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- :ultlink: and :ulttoonlink: continue to wrestle for the 2nd best Link spot, as after Toon Link surpassed him earlier, Link has now a hefty 15-point leap above him at 38th place, courtesy of Izaw's and T's recent success with the character, while Toon Link once again sits at 41st place. :ultyounglink: continues to outplace both by a pretty fair margin, and is still able to maintain a fairly solid spot, thanks to Kobe and supashimmie. If Toon Link is going to go on to become the best Link like some players claim he will, we haven't seen it yet.

.
YL doesn't have representation in Japan but the other Links have good players so that influences people. All the Links are good but none are excellent. As such they all missed the nerf hammer but also the buff wand for the most part. TL and YL are the closest because they both are pure projectile zoners where Link is a hybrid projectile/slow sword zoner. They all are weak in CQC.

You could make a case for any of them being the best because they're all unique. But the strongest case is for :ultyounglink: in results, which still aren't great. YL has the best tools of the three but is also the weakest. He has superb projectile zoning that Link lacks due to slower projectiles and different bombs. He shares Link's amazing landing game with 3 6f landing lag aerials, good fall speed, a sex kick Nair and a Dair that doesn't shoot downward, all of which TL lacks. YL also has the best combo potential off both his projectiles and CQC.

:ulttoonlink: has better kill power, weight and mobility than YL making him the best long range zoner but less fierce in CQC. Basically he trades worse tools for better stats. He's the only one I don't play and know the least about.

They both lose in CQC to bigger, faster disjoints.

:ultlink: has a big sword he can zone with but the worst frame data of the trio brings his CQC down. I play YL in tournaments but sometimes switch to Link when I need to keep the opponent at sword's length. MUs Link generally does best are ones where his disjoint is bigger and he doesn't have to approach, like vs Ness (who's Fair/Uair/DA all out-space YL's sword FML). Where Link struggles the most is if he's forced to approach like vs Olimar, who out damages him with pikmin and can take advantage of Link's poor mobility with pivots. Link probably does the best against reflectors due to being a partial sword zoner but still loses to faster sword characters with comparable disjoints. Link's Utilt/Usmash have amazing coverage but his aerials all poke out in one direction and don't cover diagonal angles well, unlike Lucina's. His f6 non-tether grab is worth mentioning as a plus. YL and TL's grab is f12.
 
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NuzTheMonkey

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Personally and I know this is a hot take, but I think Snake is severely overrated. Like severely, severely overrated. Ever since the ban of [NAME REDACTED] his results at top level play have not been indicative of a top 5 character whatsoever. His tools are still stupid af in a lot of cases, but his disadvantage is still very exploitable, and he also has bad matchups against quite a few mid and low tiers. Plant, Hero, Isabelle etc. actually go even or win. Even in top tier and gate keeper territory he isn’t dominant. Joker wrecks him, he gets roughed up pretty badly by Fox, and he takes the L to the rats as well. In high tier he doesn’t do well against the PK kids either. As people have gotten better, Snake has done worse and worse. Maybe I’m biased because this happened before in Brawl, but Snake is falling off IMO.
Joker for me is different. I get the argument that “it’s only Leo” is getting old, but it really kind of is. Tweek didn’t improve by using the character, VoiD didn’t improve from using the character, Zackray does do well, but the character has remained worse than his ROB or his Wolf. Nobody is coming close to Leo with the character. Palutena has a ridiculous amount of high/top level reps. Zero Suit Samus has basically half of Japan plus Marss. Olimar uncommon and weird as he is has Shuton and Dabuz. Peach has MuteAce, Lingling, and Samsora. Wario has Tweek and Glutonny. Joker is still a top tier, but I can’t put someone who has one rep destroying everyone over characters with multiple reps destroying everyone.
I’ve heard that from a bunch of people that Snake has a bad disadvantage but never really understood it, since he has such a powerful tool to escape any situation with grenade. If you don’t mind, could you elaborate on Snakes disadvantage and why it’s so exploitable.
 

NotLiquid

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I’ve heard that from a bunch of people that Snake has a bad disadvantage but never really understood it, since he has such a powerful tool to escape any situation with grenade. If you don’t mind, could you elaborate on Snakes disadvantage and why it’s so exploitable.
Grenades are a good tool to escape combos but they aren't exactly a good tool to reset into neutral. Disadvantage state refers to a lot more than just being stuck in a combo string. If you force Snake into the air, his only real option to land is going to be a B-reverse grenade/C4, or to attempt a read with his strong, albeit very laggy aerials. That makes him exceptionally punishable on landing because his options in disadvantage are by-and-large predictable and easy to anticipate.

He also sports arguably the most atrocious off-stage game out of any top-tier. In half of all cases he's going to be forced to take damage in order to recover back on stage, either through self-destructing or by hoping the opponent's (free) edgeguard attempts will send him at an angle good enough that a high recovery becomes an option. It's practically impossible to contest edgeguards very well since with him since so many of his moves last so long and he only compromises his already scant ability to recover.

His neutral is still top 5 in the game, and his advantage state is extremely oppressive, but against certain characters, if Snake loses momentum he does so pretty violently, and not just to niche MUs - Inkling is one of his worst match ups in top tier.
 
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Rizen

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What? :ultsnake:'s disadvantage is "bad" the same way Inkling "struggles to kill". Grenades, check, an armored upB that allows him to go high and rain down explosives because it doesn't cause free falling, check, a f3 Dair giving him a f6 OoS, check, big strong Bair, check, last resort C4 recovery, check. Flip jump? Nope! I guess he has a bad disadvantage.
 
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sleepy_Nex

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I wouldn't say that Link's cqc is bad.

he has some insane pressure on shields with his nair, bair, bomb z-drop and a deadly oos with frame7 upb and frame10 upsmash. His uptilt his also pretty fast for it's range on frame8.
Actually i do think this char is at least mid hightier.

Seeing how Palu talk died down i'll not bring it up again by writing something like i announced yesterday haha.
 

Rizen

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I wouldn't say that Link's cqc is bad.

he has some insane pressure on shields with his nair, bair, bomb z-drop and a deadly oos with frame7 upb and frame10 upsmash. His uptilt his also pretty fast for it's range on frame8.
Actually i do think this char is at least mid hightier.

Seeing how Palu talk died down i'll not bring it up again by writing something like i announced yesterday haha.
If Link can keep opponents at sword's length he does okay. The thing is his CQC doesn't seem bad but all the other sword characters CQC is better (unless you count Ganon maybe). His f6 grab is really helpful like I mentioned; it allows him to tomahawk. But it has little range. At that range faster brawlers can hit him. Link's fastest ground sword attack is jab at f8 and it's terrible. Look at this hitbox:

He has a big blind spot to SHs. Take Lucina's f5 jab for comparison:

F5 being average for a sword fighter jab.

Link's attacks often just poke out in one direction like I said and they're slow. Everything's slower than his jab that has any range. Utilt and Usmash are great but you can't zone with them. They're more of a platform pressure or punish tool. Link doesn't have any practical options to cover the blind spot diagonally above his head. Ftilt is F15 starting above Link's head. Hero has faster CQC than Link for tilts and jab.

Nair and Bair are nice but not especially fast, his fastest aerial being f6 Bair and they have no disjoint. If you want a disjointed Fair it's f16. And all his aerials poke out in one direction instead of having a sweeping motion like other sword fighters. Link's hitboxes extend far out but have poor coverage otherwise. This can make it hard to hit short opponents on the ground with his sword.

OoS upB is good but not great. F7 is acceptable for startup but good OoS moves are f3. Then if upB is blocked once the rest of the attack will do nothing; it's not multihit. And spin attack lasts 76 frames so Link better hope the opponent can't land and shield before it comes out or he'll eat a smash.


tl;dr Link's slower than other swordfighters and has blindspots at diagonal angles.
 
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PK Bash

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Grenades are a good tool to escape combos but they aren't exactly a good tool to reset into neutral. Disadvantage state refers to a lot more than just being stuck in a combo string. If you force Snake into the air, his only real option to land is going to be a B-reverse grenade/C4, or to attempt a read with his strong, albeit very laggy aerials. That makes him exceptionally punishable on landing because his options in disadvantage are by-and-large predictable and easy to anticipate.

He also sports arguably the most atrocious off-stage game out of any top-tier. In half of all cases he's going to be forced to take damage in order to recover back on stage, either through self-destructing or by hoping the opponent's (free) edgeguard attempts will send him at an angle good enough that a high recovery becomes an option. It's practically impossible to contest edgeguards very well since with him since so many of his moves last so long and he only compromises his already scant ability to recover.

His neutral is still top 5 in the game, and his advantage state is extremely oppressive, but against certain characters, if Snake loses momentum he does so pretty violently, and not just to niche MUs - Inkling is one of his worst match ups in top tier.
I dunno about the second half of that first sentence - because when you get down to it, challenging Snake falling whilst holding a nade usually has favourable risk-reward for Snake, especially at mid percents and higher. If you want this to actually give you favourable odds most of the time, you need a nicely disjointed up air (or similar move) plus a decent amount of weight in case of the chance you screw it up (so you don't get sent upwards higher than Snake does).
The best characters to play this situation are Chrom (largely thanks to his fall speed as well as his weight and up air - you usually want to try and catch Snake with falling up air, in part because rising up air leaves you more likely to finish the interaction above him if the nade does go off), Joker (grappling hook and, sometimes, Arsene USmash), G&W (windbox up air, lets him bypass the weight concern!), and Mega Man (Air Shooter) - all of these characters have a very strong yet safe option to play the situation *that also extends their advantage in a very meaningful way*. You could maybe argue Lucina and Palutena fit here too, and a few other characters like Greninja also have interesting options (Hydro Pump, USmash, and Shuriken traps) for this situation. (See also: PSI kids with PK Thunder)

So yeah. Snake may look vulnerable, but is it as bad for him as it might first appear? Not many characters can reliably challenge him landing with nade and come out on top consistently, especially with a movement mixup involved, and don't forget that he can also let go of the nade if he wants to.

This is before we even get into just how often C4 basically lets Snake land for free. We must have all seen Snake drop C4 on a platform, detonate it and then land where the C4 was before the smoke has even cleared. You are never punishing that, unless you're Joker, Ness (PKT) or have a fast horizontal projectile like Young Link.

For the record, I've touched on in this post a big reason why Snake players hate the Mega Man matchup. Mega Man is one of very few characters who can make Snake feel the pressure almost all of the time. He also has some of the most numerous and effective options/mixups to play around Nikita edgeguards and Snake's landing traps, and as a pretty weighty character, you're forced to play neutral often. Mega Man's neutral is also challenging for Snake: Metal Blade pressure is very good at combatting nade usage, as it travels through Snake and also pressures Snake's shield heavily (Snake shields a lot in order to re-pick up nades). Metal Blade is actually abnormally good against most of Snake's neutral gameplan even beyond grenades.
Mega Man is very, very good at mitigating Snake's sheer BS factor.
 

NotLiquid

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I dunno about the second half of that first sentence - because when you get down to it, challenging Snake falling whilst holding a nade usually has favourable risk-reward for Snake, especially at mid percents and higher. If you want this to actually give you favourable odds most of the time, you need a nicely disjointed up air (or similar move) plus a decent amount of weight in case of the chance you screw it up (so you don't get sent upwards higher than Snake does).
The best characters to play this situation are Chrom (largely thanks to his fall speed as well as his weight and up air - you usually want to try and catch Snake with falling up air, in part because rising up air leaves you more likely to finish the interaction above him if the nade does go off), Joker (grappling hook and, sometimes, Arsene USmash), G&W (windbox up air, lets him bypass the weight concern!), and Mega Man (Air Shooter) - all of these characters have a very strong yet safe option to play the situation *that also extends their advantage in a very meaningful way*. You could maybe argue Lucina and Palutena fit here too, and a few other characters like Greninja also have interesting options (Hydro Pump, USmash, and Shuriken traps) for this situation. (See also: PSI kids with PK Thunder)

So yeah. Snake may look vulnerable, but is it as bad for him as it might first appear? Not many characters can reliably challenge him landing with nade and come out on top consistently, especially with a movement mixup involved, and don't forget that he can also let go of the nade if he wants to.

This is before we even get into just how often C4 basically lets Snake land for free. We must have all seen Snake drop C4 on a platform, detonate it and then land where the C4 was before the smoke has even cleared. You are never punishing that, unless you're Joker, Ness (PKT) or have a fast horizontal projectile like Young Link.

For the record, I've touched on in this post a big reason why Snake players hate the Mega Man matchup. Mega Man is one of very few characters who can make Snake feel the pressure almost all of the time. He also has some of the most numerous and effective options/mixups to play around Nikita edgeguards and Snake's landing traps, and as a pretty weighty character, you're forced to play neutral often. Mega Man's neutral is also challenging for Snake: Metal Blade pressure is very good at combatting nade usage, as it travels through Snake and also pressures Snake's shield heavily (Snake shields a lot in order to re-pick up nades). Metal Blade is actually abnormally good against most of Snake's neutral gameplan even beyond grenades.
Mega Man is very, very good at mitigating Snake's sheer BS factor.
You're correct that not every character is so privileged as to be able to capitalize so well off of Snake's disadvantage options. But bear in mind that the conversation was in context of why one might think Snake misses the top 5 of the cast on the back of his disadvantage, and I feel like the fact that all those characters you mention are largely good at it, on top of being relatively ubiquitous in representation, puts Snake at a spot where I can buy the argument of him not actually being in the uncontested top of the ladder, even if I personally believe he's still locked in for top 10 despite his issues.

As an addendum to that, back in August I believe I approximated him as third best in the game, which if anything I feel is more of a testament to both Ultimate's balancing and how his issues can largely be mitigated, even if I've believed for a while that his grenade setplay is more of a double edged sword (and one of the reasons I've always thought that he's one of they way more interesting characters to watch and play against, unlike someone like Olimar).
 

Nobie

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Here's a fun thing: a Hero matchup chart courtesy of Komorikiri


Top is toughest matchups, the huge section is "normal," and very bottom is "No idea."

The conclusion is that Hero's overall matchups are *WEIRD*. Losing matchup to Pit but not Dark Pit, even against Roy but hates Chrome.
 

Impax

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Here's a fun thing: a Hero matchup chart courtesy of Komorikiri


Top is toughest matchups, the huge section is "normal," and very bottom is "No idea."

The conclusion is that Hero's overall matchups are *WEIRD*. Losing matchup to Pit but not Dark Pit, even against Roy but hates Chrome.
Not exactly a great matchup chart for hero. A lot of bad matchups against top tiers with only a few "normal " ones.
 

blackghost

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Here's a fun thing: a Hero matchup chart courtesy of Komorikiri


Top is toughest matchups, the huge section is "normal," and very bottom is "No idea."

The conclusion is that Hero's overall matchups are *WEIRD*. Losing matchup to Pit but not Dark Pit, even against Roy but hates Chrome.
there is a clear theme at play here: the slower the character the better hero does. there are afew outliers but in general, that appears to be true. also it didn't take long for most people to see that palutena is absolutely terrible for hero but I didnt think it was this bad. That MU hurts the character's viability a lot.
 

Deathcarter

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Here's a fun thing: a Hero matchup chart courtesy of Komorikiri


Top is toughest matchups, the huge section is "normal," and very bottom is "No idea."

The conclusion is that Hero's overall matchups are *WEIRD*. Losing matchup to Pit but not Dark Pit, even against Roy but hates Chrome.
Wonder why he listed Mario as a good matchup for Hero? Mario's not the fastest character but I figure he'd still have enough mobility to get around Hero's tools and overwhelm him with his vastly superior frame data.
 

The_Bookworm

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Wonder why he listed Mario as a good matchup for Hero? Mario's not the fastest character but I figure he'd still have enough mobility to get around Hero's tools and overwhelm him with his vastly superior frame data.
The bottom category is characters he is unsure about.
 

Lacrimosa

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Ending dates of the 2nd PGR season and beginning of the 3rd season announced:
 
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shrooby

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Here's a fun thing: a Hero matchup chart courtesy of Komorikiri


Top is toughest matchups, the huge section is "normal," and very bottom is "No idea."

The conclusion is that Hero's overall matchups are *WEIRD*. Losing matchup to Pit but not Dark Pit, even against Roy but hates Chrome.
Yeah those are some of the interesting things that stand out to me as well.
The difference between the Pits would imply that he thinks the arrows make a big difference, which I guess I could see. They seem pretty good against slower characters that jump often compared to Dark Pit's arrows. Recovering could also be an issue due to arrows.
On the surface it seems like the ways Chrom could be difficult would also apply to Roy, but evidently he thinks it's not just speed at play that makes it hard.
But overall it looks like Komo thinks Hero is a pretty average character. Beats some characters perceived as below average, loses to characters perceived as (very) above average, and relatively even with most. Looking at it that way, there are still outliers in both directions. In particular, I'm curious what makes him think Fox, Wolf, Lucina/Marth and Snake are lower than their generally perceived viability would suggest.
 

sleepy_Nex

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Rizen Rizen

Link doesn't want to always be at swordrange he wants to be in the distance with projectiles and directly on your shield with bomb in hand too because he has tons of ways to safely pressure you there with a combination of nair, bair, zdrop bomb and grab. Fair and bair aren't slow with frame7 and frame6 startup and bomb helps too to stuff openings. Now thats not omnipotent vs good oos but it's pretty good.

Frame3 isn't a good oos move it's already the best cream of the top you will get. A good oos move is frame6-7 or would you say bowser upb is a bad move?
 

Lacrimosa

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I feel like Hero has huge problems against characters with a reflector and/or good air speed. He has to rely a lot on his neutralB and some of his spells are projectiles. Hero is also not fast enough to really punish the endlag if a reflector whiffs from a distance.
But it'S kinda hard to tell, really. There aren't many Heroes on a high level, even Salem still plays mostly Snake. There's not much data about Hero, it seems.
 

Rizen

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Rizen Rizen

Link doesn't want to always be at swordrange he wants to be in the distance with projectiles and directly on your shield with bomb in hand too because he has tons of ways to safely pressure you there with a combination of nair, bair, zdrop bomb and grab. Fair and bair aren't slow with frame7 and frame6 startup and bomb helps too to stuff openings. Now thats not omnipotent vs good oos but it's pretty good.

Frame3 isn't a good oos move it's already the best cream of the top you will get. A good oos move is frame6-7 or would you say bowser upb is a bad move?
"Fair and bair aren't slow with frame7 and frame6 startup" I assume you meant to say Nair here. Nair is Link's GTFO tool in the air so it depends on the opponent. If someone with quick aerials like Mario's pressuring you in the air f7 doesn't chain break very well. Nair is a great move don't get me wrong but for a sex kick it's on the slower side. YL's Nair is F4.

A lot of shield pressure is situational. It really depends on the opponent's OoS. You don't Nair on ZSS' shield for example; boost kick is too good at f4. Against her you want to space Fair. Against worse OoS games you can get away with Nair more but if possible you want to land behind the opponent so not to get shield grabbed.

Bomb Z drop has the minimal amount of damage and hitstun; it does virtually nothing to shields. If you Z drop (or throw) bomb you get 1.2% extra damage. The item its self without the explosion is extremely weak. If you Z drop a bomb you can't detonate it without blowing yourself up too.

Lets say you Bair a shield, then what? You can't grab. Your best attack option is f8 Utilt which starts behind Link but you'll probably get punished for that. In SSB4 you could Bair>jump away which probably still works but it's not strong shield pressure.

If you want to pressure a shield the safest thing you can do is Fair both hits>land>sword attack spaced, like jab or Dtilt. Spaced Fair will be safe from most OoS games.


" A good oos move is frame6-7 or would you say bowser upb is a bad move?"
I said
OoS upB is good but not great.
at f7. Why would I say Bowser, who's OoS is f6, has a bad upB (OoS)?
 
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