Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Deleted member]

has an infinite that leads into kill moves which allows her to esacape the bottom of the barrel (without it, she's a lower low tier).

Currently, the only characters that I can say are definitively low tier are and maybe and (depending on how much the buffs affected him).

The infinite is pretty hard to apply as it only works near the ledge. And if I recall correctly, you can get out of it? And the technique isn’t even part of her main gameplan.

Explanation on why Brawler is low tier?

 

[Gleam]

I'm really enjoying Terry right now but something I'm eager to discuss is the applicability, if any there is on his stage, King of Fighters Stadium. It's notably different from other stages being one that has no bottom, just a flat stage but the end zones act as essentially walls that, if I'm right, can be teched. There doesn't seem to be anything that could make it unviable as a stage pick, again kind of just started playing it so if that's true, it may act as a very good counterpick for some characters.

I can only imagine how much would love this stage, knowing his crap recovery doesn't mean jack here.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm really enjoying Terry right now but something I'm eager to discuss is the applicability, if any there is on his stage, King of Fighters Stadium. It's notably different from other stages being one that has no bottom, just a flat stage but the end zones act as essentially walls that, if I'm right, can be teched. There doesn't seem to be anything that could make it unviable as a stage pick, again kind of just started playing it so if that's true, it may act as a very good counterpick for some characters.

I can only imagine how much would love this stage, knowing his crap recovery doesn't mean jack here.

While I'd love to be more optimistic about it I can't really see our currentlybhyper-conservative stage lists picking it up. Those walls will likely be dismissed as jank before even testing them.

Although on the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if those walls could allow for infinites or zero to deaths, so it might just not stand a chance regardless.

 

[Gleam]

I'd have to some more/real testing but I think there's too much knockback against the walls to allow for anything more than early percent combos, if that. The effect certainly leads to the possibility of pseudo-combos though which I think makes the stage very interesting. There's also apparently a limit to when the walls can break so you couldn't reasonable kill at lower percent here. Add the fact that you can tech against those walls also helps.

These aspects, especially wall techs and stuff, gives it a noted edge over similar walk off stages where, yeah, specific combos and structures can really screw over characters. This stage is nearly the exact opposite of most typical smash stages, where you could almost say there is more emphasis on racking up damage and expressing powerful blows than gimping and offstage action.

If it does become legal, it's going to be great for anyone who is screwed around by offstage play, including but not limited to, and .

I've been using Ganon for fun around here and needless to say, it's nice not to die at 70% because your recovery couldn't reach the top of a shelf at home.

 

[Nah]

arcfire no longer being snuffed by everything

Neither the official patch notes pages nor the Smashboards one says this? Did I miss something?

I'll wait until the details (as in, the exact number changes) come out about the changes before commenting further on Robin's buffs though.

 

[Rizen]

's my secondary so I'll talk about his buffs. The main thing that holds him back is limited hitboxes so the Fair buff is a big thing. Fair is the closest thing to a poke kill option K.Rool has but it was pretty weak. Increasing the consistency and kill power really helps his kill game, something he is lacking in compared to other super heavies. Nair's his main landing option and has armor so less vulnerability is also significant. Uair's main weakness is the absurd endlag which didn't get fixed but at least it's higher reward. He's meant to be a zoner heavy like DDD so the buffs to kannonball, especially its speed are also really nice. Having a bigger area of effect on gut check's belly counter is good but doesn't address the big weakness that it doesn't work backward. This might help it counter recoveries better at least.

So K.Rool got some substantial buffs. I can't say how much it will help him rise in the tier list but he's looking a lot better. I already thought he was lower mid tier and better than Ganon.

 

[Megamang]

Kirby's new nair is pretty stronk, it being faster too is a nice little buff. It doesn't address the core issue of being slow = how can you even get in in the first place to land the nair, but at least when you do it actually has reward comparable to the rest of the cast.


And it really shines offstage, which I think fits Kirby pretty well. Robin's nair… is the frame data / startup / endlag better, or does it actually swing faster?


Terry impressions... I like him., I do think he will still struggle vs the same meta defining characters that cause problems for lots of the cast, but the reward is there so it is kind of a Ken situation where you have to outplay but when you do it hurts. How much does it hurt? It seems to hurt less, but he gets consistently more damage off of chip hits (Ken gets lots off of the right hits, but tapping you in neutral doesn't always confirm into anything).


Locus apparently likes him, Leffen says he could be low top tier, Dabuz seems pretty unimpressed. Dabuz noted his lack of disjoints and how some of his kill moves are pretty inconsistent.


I don't see much about his projectile, I really like the slow version. A creeping move on the ground to push out jumps feels pretty Shoto to me. But on the other hand, the power and speed of aerials means that lots of the cast being 'forced' to jump isn't so bad, I mean ZSS was probably going to jump at you anyways right?


Also, he looks like he has some DLC hitbox shifting action to benefit him. On a frame data level apparently his initial dash is pretty bad, but the way he leans back really looks like it will be super handy for whiff punishing. Anyone have any input about this?

Also, his d-smash... didn't really see it at all on the streams, but so far I really like it. Feels pretty safe at a range, it will duck some moves, and it has decent range/speed/power combination.


He gets pretty insane damage off of jabs, and can kill from them. That can't be bad.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Do you guys remember 's forward throw underneath Battlefield and PS1 issues?

Well with the newly buffed (and lowkey ridiculously good now) neutral air...

Finally... #SSBU_KIRBY pic.twitter.com/tCGdMPpfim

— Myollnir~ (@Tilted_as_fuck) November 6, 2019

Other new Kirby stuff is also being found, such as true combo confirms into Inhale thanks to its reduced startup.
Edit: Here is footage of this:

With the Inhale startup buff, you can true combo into it like this. Works on the characters you can Fthrow > Fair > regrab, and Dair > Utilt.#SSBU_KIRBY pic.twitter.com/JfIX015q1t

— Phan7om (@Phan777om) November 6, 2019

His Inhale is now as fast as Wario's Chomp.

Edit 2: Apparently, SGK says that up air landing is now safe. Geez, this character got actual love in this patch.

 

[SwagGuy99]

The infinite is pretty hard to apply as it only works near the ledge. And if I recall correctly, you can get out of it? And the technique isn’t even part of her main gameplan.

Explanation on why Brawler is low tier?

When you compare Brawler to everyone else, he's underwhelming. He's a pretty one-dimensional character and while he does get benefits from his special moves and while his individual moves aren't horrible, he doesn't have the frame data or Mario or the movement speed of Fox to make his moveset work cohesively, in a similar way to Bowser Jr. in Smash 4. His range is also really bad which is probably his biggest weakness.

 

[Avokha]

Gonna document the robin buffs here, as not everyone seems to fully understand what they are and how they affect the character.

The 5 buffs;

1. Ftilt received increased knockback. For the moment this change doesn't seem to be very significant, as the move never served as anything more than a disjointed 'get off me' option, though testing is being done to see if any new strings/combos are open now thanks to this change
2. Arcfire's travel distance was increased. This change is interesting because it essentially allows Robin to light a ledge on fire from almost anywhere on the stage (provided platforms don't onstruct it) and initiate a sort of ledgetrap snipe when used in conjunction with thoron. Robin's ledgetrapping is already pretty deadly, and thanks to this buff he now has the longest ranged ledgetrap in the game.
3. Thunder magic charge speed was increased. Pretty self explanatory, Robin can now more readily access any given level of his neutral b, which is a great boon in faster paced matches, particularly against characters that seek to cut off access to some of Robin's choice tools.
4. Nair (formerly frame 9) was reduced by 2 frames. This is also pretty self explanatory, improving Robin's oos game and just giving a faster aerial option in general.
5. Performing smash attack inputs will replenish a broken Levin swords durability by 1 additional tick per input. Prepatch, 2 ticks were replenished per second (out of 20, so 10 seconds was the max respawn time) with 1 additional tick per smash attack input, including smash input aerials. Postpatch, smash inputs now replenish 2 ticks per input, which when combined with the spammabilty of Robin's aerials (fair and uair especially), Robin now has the potential to restore his sword even faster than his up special, which ordinarily takes 6 seconds to respawn.

 

[KakuCP9]

This is absolutely sickening. I love it.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

has an infinite that leads into kill moves which allows her to esacape the bottom of the barrel (without it, she's a lower low tier).

The infinite is pretty hard to apply as it only works near the ledge. And if I recall correctly, you can get out of it? And the technique isn’t even part of her main gameplan.

If we are all thinking of the same "infinite", this information might be important to know:

With SDI-ing "up", you can get out of Wobelle (Isabella's Jab infinite) after getting 20 consecutive hits, doesn't matter what % you are.
This is common mechanics and also helps getting out of certain situation such as Villager's Jab (semi) infinite with using Tree behind him. https://t.co/bHw7C1g9JG

— Meshima (@Meshima_) October 1, 2019

 

[DunnoBro]

He doesn't have the frame data of Mario

He actually has the exact same frame data on most of his normals. I think brawler is actually top 10 on frame data. Even has a frame 3 upb oos.

Main issue imo is getting in vs zoners. (Feint kick and dash attack don't feel like enough) and his potency at high percent feels very underwhelming.

It could just be the ledge traps/special configuration isn't optimized yet, but it just feels like brawler constantly has to win that extra neutral exchange to get them to VERY high percent(145%+) when upb oos, shotput, and bair from center stage kill.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Here's a detailed list of K. Rool's buffs and the overall effects they can have so far:

Spoiler: Big Imagine

*Edit: Updated Sheet*

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, I guess I also start complaining actively now about my Main.


But seriously, it's good to see that these flawed characters do get some love and are better now. To what extend we'll see but I'm sure none of them should be considered bottom-tier anymore.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

This is absolutely sickening. I love it.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This puts a smile on my face.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Considering that the characters that got changed in the patch 6.0.0 got some fairly significant buffs in this patch, this is going to be an odd meta for coming up with tier lists of the lower tiers. Three characters that are commonly considered to be bottom 5, , received some significant love this patch, while two characters commonly considered low tier, , got some fairly significant changes as well (probably less with Incineroar though).


This is where you would ask: who is left to fill the bottom 5 role. The two other bottom 5 contenders, , didn't receive any changes this patch. Right now, Mac seems to be the one people are pointing fingers at for the worst character, but then you would have to point out the notable success Mac has received from Japan.
Isabelle's best results (that are any significant anyways) come from being used a secondary to a player who uses better characters, and even those who do secondary her are rare. Fingers would be pointed at her for worst character, but then there are those who think she is underrated, mostly due to possessing jab stun and slingshot.

Characters like , and maybe , have been falling off a cliff in terms of perception of viability (so was , but those two got buffed), but then you then would have to question if the characters are truly bottom 5 contenders, because there are defenders of these characters (especially Mii Brawler, who alongside Ice Climbers, are probably the most polarizing characters in terms of viability viewpoints).

There is also the chance that the characters that did get buffed in this patch will not significantly rise enough in the tier list to escape bottom 10, or maybe bottom 5.

In conclusion, this is going to be an interesting meta for lower tiered characters, because aside from and maybe , there haven't been too many cases of bottom 5 contenders getting large enough buffs to escape that realm to somewhere notably different.

P.S.: Didn't mention buffs because that character wasn't low tier to begin with, but the character got treated like one this patch with these buffs.
Maybe the dev team heard ESAM saying that he is bottom 5, so they actually believed him and buffed him accordingly. Whatever, I guess we take those.

 

[Rizen]

So, I guess I also start complaining actively now about my Main.


But seriously, it's good to see that these flawed characters do get some love and are better now. To what extend we'll see but I'm sure none of them should be considered bottom-tier anymore.

I wouldn't blame you deserved buffs more than a few of the characters who got them.

TBH I'm worried that Joker got through unscathed. With all the DLC characters coming out I don't want the game to turn into another late SSB4 meta.

 

[TennisBall]

I'm sure someone said it before, but can now true combo Down Air into Rest, and it's really easy.

 

[Arthur97]

The Robins getting buffed like they did does seem like an outlier. I wonder why they got that attention when they seemed to be focusing on some of the worse fighters?

 

[Nah]

might not be any real reason as to why it was this patch that Robin got buffs

sure, the majority of the characters in this patch were ones generally seen as terrible, but that by itself doesn't mean that their intent with this one was "buff bottom tiers", it could just be a coincidence

the character really needed something anyway

 

[Lacrimosa]

I wouldn't blame you deserved buffs more than a few of the characters who got them.

TBH I'm worried that Joker got through unscathed. With all the DLC characters coming out I don't want the game to turn into another late SSB4 meta.

I fear she'll get the Sm4sh treatment where the meta develops without her and when she gets the necessary buff the meta is way too far ahead.
She's better in this game, so she doesn't drop to Bottom tier automatically, but she's one of the few if not only (don't quote me on that one, pls) character that has received zero changes so far (the phantom nerf did do nothing), outside of the DLC characters.

 

[Zinith]

I fear she'll get the Sm4sh treatment where the meta develops without her and when she gets the necessary buff the meta is way too far ahead.
She's better in this game, so she doesn't drop to Bottom tier automatically, but she's one of the few if not only (don't quote me on that one, pls) character that has received zero changes so far (the phantom nerf did do nothing), outside of the DLC characters.

That's my feeling with Yoshi. The only thing he got so far was a fix to shield buffer

 

[FruitLoop]

I fear she'll get the Sm4sh treatment where the meta develops without her and when she gets the necessary buff the meta is way too far ahead.
She's better in this game, so she doesn't drop to Bottom tier automatically, but she's one of the few if not only (don't quote me on that one, pls) character that has received zero changes so far (the phantom nerf did do nothing), outside of the DLC characters.

Dedede, an already low tier character that gets suprisingly big nerfs constantly: Am I a Joke to You?

 

[BitBitio]

That's my feeling with Yoshi. The only thing he got so far was a fix to shield buffer

To be fair, though, he is considered high-tier anyway.

Kirby is waaaaay better now. He now has a new kill confirm with utilt to up air (on certain characters) in addition to a great nair (IMO one of the better nairs in the game) a more viable juggling tool with up air, a really quick jab, and tons of combos and setups into Inhale now (it’s safer to throw out in neutral now too. If you whiff, it’s punishable but it has the same startup and better range than fair, which is a staple of his neutral despite the startup). New combo routes off of and into nair and up air are insanely good.... It’s just buffs all around, and apparently he was only a few frames short of those moves being way better.

 

[NairWizard]

OK, so Terry.

To start with, don't compare him to Ryu and Ken. Ryu and Ken have the Luigi design where they have a hard time getting in, but once they get in, they do massive damage. Terry is even slower than those two for raw stats (less than 1.0 air speed, slow dash), but he has 4 burst-mobility specials (Power Dunk, Burning Tackle, Crack Shot, and are-u-ok in Go!), and an incredibly beautiful dash attack for burst. When he uses one of these, he goes from being bottom 5 mobility in the cast to top 5, so his archetype is automatically way different from Ryu/Ken: Terry is a whiff punisher.

His back dash is actually crazy good for this purpose; the little hurtbox shift that he does and the short distance he travels and just how quick it is combines with his burst options to let him whiff punish any attack in the game. For example, Lucina landing n-airs (which is usually very safe) and Terry back-dashes into Crack Shot, and at most spacings it doesn't matter if she gets out the shield in time or not, he'll just blaze past her even if he doesn't hit her.

It's kind of hard to approach Terry. Power Wave is a good projectile; low-profilers like Inkling and Pikachu have to come at you the traditional way, so you can use it to force a jump, and because of Terry's burst mobility, jumping isn't that safe. Crack Shot just eats up most jump ins that don't already have a hitbox going when he uses it.

Approaching slowly with shields is the way to go, but then, as it turns out, you're playing Terry's game. Up close, Terry's frame data is a bit slow and he's not safe on shield, but it doesn't matter. The thing is, you can't react to anything that he's doing up close, and if you guess wrong or if you mis-space even slightly, you take more damage than he risks taking. He can spotdodge cancel into a kill confirm, he can jab you for 40%, or he can just use one of his invincible options for a quick 20%.

If you're someone like Fox and you're going aggro on Terry and n-airing and jabbing, you're playing the wrong side of the risk-reward table, even though you're so much faster up close. Terry just has to mash buttons to be completely random with what he's doing and you will get hit, and you will take a ton of damage. Your best bet is punishing OOS, but in that case, if Terry has Go!, you're just Gone! up-tilt Power Geyser ravages shield.

Terry's crouch is actually a hidden top-tier tool too. d-tilt may not be safe on shield but it confirms into so many options, and if you attack him, Terry has two sources of invincibility directly out of crouch--he can spotdodge and dodge attack, or he can Rising Tackle. Spotdodge covers your grounded moves and Rising Tackle anti-airs. For similar reasoning, Terry's OOS is amazing--you can spotdodge directly out of shield and follow up however you want; summoning more than a dozen frames of invulnerability out of an already strong defensive position and possibly getting 40% or the stock for it? That's insane.

Terry in neutral is overall great, and he gets enough reward off of neutral conversions and being up close that even if his advantage state (juggling, ledgetrapping, edgeguarding) weren't that great he wouldn't need it to be. But his ledgetrapping in particular is actually pretty good, since you can't really roll behind him unless he's in the middle of an animation. He can just stand near ledge shielding and as soon as you do anything other than jump, he can spotdodge and cancel it into a power move. With Go!, he edges out just about every other ledgetrapper in terms of lethal mixups.

So, for archetype, Terry is one of the slowest characters in the game who can, while whiff punishing, be one of the fastest, and gets huge reward off of being close to his opponent. You can't whiff against him, it's hard to zone him, you can't approach him, and you don't get as much reward as he does once you've actually approached him. That archetype actually hasn't existed in smash before, but from my experience playing it, I can tell you that it's probably viable against every other archetype in the game.

But Terry has two obvious problems. One is that some zoning characters like Megaman actually don't care about Power Wave or even Crack Shot and can force Terry to commit really hard to a burst option to get in, while never needing to go in themselves. Those matchups are likely difficult.

The other (and you've probably already heard this from different people) is that he doesn't snap to the ledge with most of his specials. Terry does have some options to mix up his recovery (invincible Rising Tackle, Crack Shot, Power Wave stall, etc.), but his air-speed is bad. Compare to Chrom who can often airdodge to ledge by virtue of his insane air speed and avoid the edgeguard attempt altogether, but still loses his stock sometimes while recovering, and it's a bad look for offstage Terry.

On the bright side, Terry does deal pretty decently with other forms of disadvantage such as being ledge-trapped and certain juggling situations. His burst options, invincible options and spotdodge canceling are great in those bad situations, and 108 weight can allow him to come back through Go! if they end up going poorly for him.

I'm going to predict that he's actually pretty good, somewhere in the high tiers, maybe a bit shy of top tier. For Terry to be top tier, his recovery game (not his punish game, which is what everyone is working on) needs to be optimized on a per-matchup basis. No one ever labs disadvantage. But that's what the Terrys are going to have to do if they want to have that top 10-15 status. And it's possible (though somewhat unlikely) that he's just OK enough to get there.

GOODBYE.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's interesting that they're willing to mess with their air dodge end lag formula for Jigglypuff, if only a little bit. In Ultimate, all air dodge are based on fall speed, where the slower you fall, the longer your air dodge is. It makes sense that they're willing to give Puff a boost in this regard, but I'm surprised it happened at all. Maybe there's hope for other characters who miss their old air dodge?

Well, Jigglypuff's air dodge is still worse than Peach's, still the worst in the game. It's still frankly awful, and I'd kill for SHAD, but 11 frames is 11 frames and I'm very happy about this change, even just from a QoL standpoint.

Anyway, I'm downright chuffed with this patch in terms of what was given out. It's flashbacks to BBrawl to Smash 4, because so many of the exact things I proposed/wanted/wished for was the path chosen.

Excited about the Kirby sequences being discovered. I feel like startup changes was absolutely the right path forward with him, and hope it pays off.
Ok, I never would have lowered landing lag on dair to allow drill rest, but I 100% specifically wanted air dodge FAF, Pound stun, and dair SHAC changes. Bam.
I told everyone who would listen that the #1 thing Big Kitty needs is a slightly better window/FAF/range on Revenge, and they did all 3. Frankly, all the other stuff I see as just QoL.
I wanted nair, nair, fair, and also nair buffed. I have a low opinion of his design, and didn't see a better way forward than to double down on his aerials+armor uniqueness. And they did it! Like Incineroar, the other changes are welcome but sort of icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.
OoS buffs, check. Down-b made into a meaningful tool, check. I'm happy.
I really didn't have an opinion on--I thought Robin was 100% bottom half (probably third), but he/she wasn't on my radar in terms of buffs to ponder. I REALLY like the arcfire range change though, it might actually be my second favorite tweak after puff SHAC dair.

I mean, obviously I also wanted changes because I'm a biased fan of both and agree with the common concensus. Also a shame to see and not looked at, since those are such low-hanging fruit. I'd actively advocate buffs to , as I think they are doomed to decline. There are plenty of other characters I wouldn't be upset to see get (more) buffs (), but I don't feel the same sense of "need" about.


Mr. Bogard seems strong. Feels more accessible than the shotos. Highest damage jab in the game? Down-b feels bonkers, like some bucket of free damage that gets sloshed onto everything. Glad people caught on to his ledge allergy--I love that he has an abundance of very mediocre recovery options, a bit like Banjo.

Terry's movement stats are between Ken and Ryu's, except that he has normal air accel + fast fall (very good) and no focus attack to juke/armor with (very bad). The comparisons otherwise sort of stop at his normals, since everything else is burst movement. Very curious to see how much he is played.

I think Terry might actually increase the amount of Ryu players. (Less likely for Ken.) Like, Ryu can't go down any further. If HALF of all Ryu players leave for Terry, but 1% of all the new people picking up Terry dabble in Ryu, that's a net win for Ryu's usage numbers.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ganondorf is probably the worst character in the game now, and that saddens me.

— Griffin Miller @CEOtaku 2024 (@FatalityFalcon) November 7, 2019

Well, he isn't really wrong and I would like to see Ganondorf good but it seems that he is once again at the bottom.
Still thinking that Isabelle/Corrin are worse but Ganon is very close to the bottom as well with his poor approach option, bad recovery and overall slow movement, both grounded and airborne. No projectile doesn't help either.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd actively advocate buffs to , as I think they are doomed to decline.

I'm curious what areas you think Simon (and presumably Richter) need some love in. Their archetypes seem like they'd be prone to...not overbuffing, per se, but accidentally making the most infuriating character ever.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I'm curious what areas you think Simon (and presumably Richter) need some love in. Their archetypes seem like they'd be prone to...not overbuffing, per se, but accidentally making the most infuriating character ever.

Give them slightly better framedata on the startup of their specials. The start-up is a lot, you can react to them with a lot of moves (for example Zelda's upB punishes every Belmont special reliably and faster character can just get in by mixing up their approaches. Once you figured out the punish windows, the Belmonts are more or less defenseless and have to rely on their whip.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm curious what areas you think Simon (and presumably Richter) need some love in. Their archetypes seem like they'd be prone to...not overbuffing, per se, but accidentally making the most infuriating character ever.

I actually am not sure. (I'm also not sure how I'd make Richter different from Simon given the chance.) I don't understand them enough, but recognize that they are perhaps the most polarized characters in the game matchup-wise. The Belmonts do more than fine in plenty of matchups, even against some top tiers--but suffer badly in others. It's not hard to point out the common issues, but as a non-Belmont player I'm not confident what the actual solution(s) would be.

To rephrase your question in terms of something Amazing Ampharos mentioned, what can be done to make Belmonts deal with Falco?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I'm curious what areas you think Simon (and presumably Richter) need some love in. Their archetypes seem like they'd be prone to...not overbuffing, per se, but accidentally making the most infuriating character ever.

You want a character that similarly has a super strong advantage state , one or more opressive normals long range and along with good ledgeguarding but manges to not have too many the Belmots Weaknesses or at least not as bad.

says hi. So yeah if you want more characters like her around

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I actually am not sure. (I'm also not sure how I'd make Richter different from Simon given the chance.) I don't understand them enough, but recognize that they are perhaps the most polarized characters in the game matchup-wise. The Belmonts do more than fine in plenty of matchups, even against some top tiers--but suffer badly in others. It's not hard to point out the common issues, but as a non-Belmont player I'm not confident what the actual solution(s) would be.

To rephrase your question in terms of something Amazing Ampharos mentioned, what can be done to make Belmonts deal with Falco?

The solution might be as simple as buffs to some key GTFO moves. They already have an excellent ledge trap game, fthrow as a stock cap, and some cheeky situational kill confirms such as dair into uppercut or reverse cross into usmash, so I wouldn't say their advantage state is in dire need of improvement. Disadvantage, though, is where I think they falter. It seems pretty easy to suffocate them as long as you have quick buttons, so stuff like a faster nair/jab or a scooping hitbox on utilt might do a decent job of patching over the gaps.

I don't know enough about Falco specifically to answer your question as stated, though. And weirdly enough, I have a hard time caring about the similarities between Simon and Richter. (Richter's better eye candy IMO, and I think the blue holy water looks cooler, and that's about the extent of my preference.)

 

[KirbySquad101]

Stealth nerf (well not really a nerf, more like a bug fix) to where she'll no longer bury opponents during her landing animation:

Some undocumented patch changes (1/3)

ZSS Down B is no longer be able to bury opponents while her landing animation.https://t.co/Bl8XpoqzzC

— Meshima (@Meshima_) November 7, 2019

This probably won't change anything about the character's top tier status, but it will get rid of annoying situations where this type of stuff happens.

This is absolutely sickening. I love it.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

, is that you?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Samus 3.1.0' up smash, is that you... kind of?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

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Speaking of stealth changes, according to SmashWiki, 's Counter Throw received yet another stealth nerf.
It has a smaller hitbox, so that it can no longer grab opponents behind Mii Brawler.

So... they made an already bad move even worse... ok then...

 

[L9999]

The reasons of why is low tier are plenty, but here are some realistic buffs to make them slightly less trash:

> Nair from frame 8 to frame 5. It is ridiculous how Nair has such tiny range yet have so poor frame data. In many recorded games the Belmont players attempt to get their opponent off them by Nairing but fail because it is too slow.

> UTilt endlag reduced. UTilt is extremely unsafe, you see it in the footage how UTilt ends in punishment or doing nothing, even if it was used to shark a platform.

> Make their grab(s) faster. Belmonts can't threaten at certain ranges because they don't have a grab, and it plays part in why Belmonts are very easy to pressure. At what would be the dashgrab/Ftilt range for a real character, Belmonts cannot do anything. Jab stinks, tilts are punishable, jumping is mostly a bad idea, and grab is unuseable. Even characters like has a grab, it is key to keeping people away from center stage, you know, where Belmonts don't want you to be. They want you in the corner, where they can kill you.

is plagued with bad attributes that the above buffs wouldn't fix. Having poor overall mobility, having a laughably easy recovery to interrupt, and having poor frame data. But I think the big one is how Belmonts can't hit anything or kill outside of Holy Water ledgetraps.

You know how is called bad because his tippers are so hard to hit? Imagine that instead of wielding a sword, Marth wielded an spaguetti, and instead of doing arching motions that cover the space around him he shot his spaguetti in straight lines that left gigantic blindspots. That is the Belmonts.

Ganondorf is probably the worst character in the game now, and that saddens me.

— Griffin Miller @CEOtaku 2024 (@FatalityFalcon) November 7, 2019

Well, he isn't really wrong and I would like to see Ganondorf good but it seems that he is once again at the bottom.
Still thinking that Isabelle/Corrin are worse but Ganon is very close to the bottom as well with his poor approach option, bad recovery and overall slow movement, both grounded and airborne. No projectile doesn't help either.

He was already at the bottom, it took doing jack squat after Nairo got an upset with him for players to finally admit he is garbage.

 

[Rizen]

are #40 on Orion Stats; it's not like they're low tier. They have good MUs against even some top tiers like Olimar and really polarized MUs in general. They wreck big characters pretty hard. Buffing them wouldn't be the worst idea ever but there are about 30 characters who need buffs more.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is some other stealth changes that I found:

1) According to UR2SLOW, 's Spin Charge got adjusted to be more reliable. It still has issues connecting at higher percents, but it is start.

Here is a quick showcase of the recent adjustment made to Sonic's Spincharge in Smash Ultimate.
The move seems to connect more reliably than before... 🤔 pic.twitter.com/iYKEurX6iL

— UR2SLOW (@UR2SLOW_) November 7, 2019

2) There where a few instances that if the C4 explosion triggers a special zoom, the hitbox would extend and hit .
Here is an example of this:

WUH HAPPEN?!?

Between @ScAtt227 and @AikotaLove on @RecursionGG pic.twitter.com/zu8v0Qwabz

— GeorgiaSmash (@GeorgiaSmash) August 19, 2019

This got fixed in 6.0.0 fortunately, so Snake players don't have to worry about dying accidentally due to this odd phenomenal. This link here provides the specific changes to C4.

3) 's collision range on his forward smash has been adjusted while he charging forward smash. This is prevent stuff like this from happening:

ジョーカーの横スマホールドにローラー当たらない光景シュールすぎて草 pic.twitter.com/1emS5TWWz4

— OK∀YU (@Okayuu31) May 3, 2019

Considering that this was discovered week 1 of his release, I am surprised that it took them this long to fix it.

4) When got its wide array of buffs in patch 4.0.0, it introduced a glitch where one of the outermost hitboxes of up smash's first hit would deal no damage. This has now been fixed.


Edit: Apparently they also slightly tweaked 's aerial hitstun animation. Very inconsequential change.

P.S.: How come Terry's stock icon isn't showing for me? I know I had this issue before when they introduce new stock icons, but I forgot how to fix it. lol

 

[TennisBall]

One of 's main problems is that Up-B does not snap to ledge like most recoveries do, which could probably lead to some extremely stupid 2-frames.
There's your weakness for the people who are getting bullied by Terrys online who came over from King Of Fighters to bully us all.

 

[AxelVDP]

One of 's main problems is that Up-B does not snap to ledge like most recoveries do, which could probably lead to some extremely stupid 2-frames.
There's your weakness for the people who are getting bullied by Terrys online who came over from King Of Fighters to bully us all.

while he's using his up B his legs are entirely invincible, so you can't really poke him from above when he's trying to grab the ledge, o I don't think he suffers more than most characters when recovering
also, his up B can be charged even while soft holding down (as to not fastfall), so theoretically you could be totally invincible on your way up (aside from the 2 frames while ledge snapping) ("soft holding" can also be used to charge up B while holding shield or while standing still/walking without crouching)