Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[BlackInk]

A big problem I have been noticing is that the meta gets incredibly inconsistent because of the rage mechanic and the fact we don’t actually give a great chunk of characters kill conditions even when the opponent is at 140% or 150%. It makes the game pretty dumb because it means you get punished for playing Inkling, Peach, or Sheik incredibly well and die because of some random Charzard up-air, back air, or some other kill happy moves.

We seen far too many of these cases. For a recent example, Esam was dominating Kamaine so ridiculously hard in their tournament stock but then he had one slip up and died at 40%, mid-stage... It’s extremely gross design.

 

[AxelVDP]

unless i am missing something how do these statements not contradict each other? is someone is jumping at mac they are either losing or not playing the matchup correctly. When either situation is assumed it doesnt make a character underrated or good.

How so? the majority of the cast uses aerials as their main form of approach, and Mac's oos game is not that amazing, slow grab, good upb but stubby range, average usmash (for oos purposes) and TERRIBLE jump away, his way of dealing with aerial approaches is by preemptively stuffing their options out with his hitboxes (spotdodge is also decent), and platforms really help with this problem since they force the opponent to space a certain way
Why would anyone approach Mac you ask? Well, because you don't start the match in advantage. camping is something you can do if you have more than a feeble lead.

for most good characters using a double jump is not an extreme risk. mac is so ground dependent that in a platform fighter he cannot jump. thats a very very huge impediment on a character outside of a traditional fighter. the fact it is safer to jump in samurai showdown than mac in smash is very telling.

can mac reach platforms in this game at smashville, ps, or bf. i know he can't reach the other pokemon stages platforms.
at low levels all kinds of characters can win doesn't mean they are actually good characters. mac is not very good.he's down there with other bad flawed characters like bayo, puff, K rool, and others.

I don't get where you got the idea that I was saying Mac was good lol. Yes, he is bad BUT he only is terrible when you are actually facing people who can get past his framedata and exploit his weaknesses. Considering that fighting decent Macs is rare, MU knowledge is generally lacking (this is often an overlooked aspect when talking about viability, an uncommon MU is a real advantage, it's not just frame data and mental game, even at top level) and, I feel like I'm repeating myself, Mac has the perfect tools (speed, framedata and power) to abuse these little cracks in the opponents gameplan (and even in those cases, he is still not a great character) (this + his design gimmick mean that buffing him is pretty risky for the casual playerbase, which is probably why you see Sakurai keeping this character in the dust)
also, Mac can fullhop on BF platforms, he cannot full hop on Smashville platform, but thankfully in this game the platform stays in the middle so you don't get ****ed as much as in smash4, PS platforms are also not super terrible cause he still can shark decently

 

[ZephyrZ]

A big problem I have been noticing is that the meta gets incredibly inconsistent because of the rage mechanic and the fact we don’t actually give a great chunk of characters kill conditions even when the opponent is at 140% or 150%. It makes the game pretty dumb because it means you get punished for playing Inkling, Peach, or Sheik incredibly well and die because of some random Charzard up-air, back air, or some other kill happy moves.

We seen far too many of these cases. For a recent example, Esam was dominating Kamaine so ridiculously hard in their tournament stock but then he had one slip up and died at 40%, mid-stage... It’s extremely gross design.

You say random but doesn't that sort of discredit those Charizard players for going for slow, high commitment options and landing them? Heavy weights are finally kind of viable and now people are complaining because they can actually sort of fulfill their game plans now.

Its part of the game's design. Characters like Charizard and Bowser don't have many safe buttons, so that's balanced by having high reward and consistent kill power. Characters like Peach and Inkling have their safe nairs and bairs which give high reward for low risk, but the characters might struggle to kill a bit more without make up for that. Not like Peach doesn't have her crazy good Fair though.

Sheik and Bayo might struggle with killing a little too much, and I don't think the world would end if Inkling got some slight kill power buffs, but when looking at the game as a whole I don't see this as a giant problem.

 

[BlackInk]

You say random but doesn't that sort of discredit those Charizard players for going for slow, high commitment options and landing them? Heavy weights are finally kind of viable and now people are complaining because they can actually sort of fulfill their game plans now.

Its part of the game's design. Characters like Charizard and Bowser don't have many safe buttons, so that's balanced by having high reward and consistent kill power. Characters like Peach and Inkling have their safe nairs and bairs which give high reward for low risk, but the characters might struggle to kill a bit more without make up for that. Not like Peach doesn't have her crazy good Fair though.

Sheik and Bayo might struggle with killing a little too much, and I don't think the world would end if Inkling got some slight kill power buffs, but when looking at the game as a whole I don't see this as a giant problem.

It’s a problem because Inkling. Sheik, and Bayo don’t have a way to actually kill the raged opponent and will die at absurdly low percents for it. At 140% - 150%, the opponent is supposed to be screwed, not the one who’s actually winning the neutral. Peach’s fair was that kind of option until they overnerfed it so a lot more opponents don’t die at appropriate percents.

Plus, Charzard is high risk and high reward??? Really, did you forget the pt gimmick? Bowser has the right to truly be that kind of character because he doesn’t have an absurdly fast, killing oos, a really hard to put down recovery, or the ability to change into other pretty good characters and avoid being used in a bad match up. Did you forget about Wario, Joker, Shulk Snake, PT, and Rob? You know, the comeback jank, ridiculous kill power, absurd weight, ridiculous longevity/recovery, or ones that basically fit into all these categories?

“ Sheik and Bayo might struggle with killing a little too much, and I don't think the world would end if Inkling got some slight kill power buffs, but when looking at the game as a whole I don't see this as a giant problem.”

Struggling to kill a mid-weight opponent at 190% isn’t a small problem or a “little too much”. It’s simply is a huge problem because it rewards the opponent for losing and screws up the goddamn consistency of this game.

 

[Rizen]

A big problem I have been noticing is that the meta gets incredibly inconsistent because of the rage mechanic and the fact we don’t actually give a great chunk of characters kill conditions even when the opponent is at 140% or 150%. It makes the game pretty dumb because it means you get punished for playing Inkling, Peach, or Sheik incredibly well and die because of some random Charzard up-air, back air, or some other kill happy moves.

We seen far too many of these cases. For a recent example, Esam was dominating Kamaine so ridiculously hard in their tournament stock but then he had one slip up and died at 40%, mid-stage... It’s extremely gross design.

We're in a "strong reads meta". In Ultimate kill confirms were taken away from most of the cast, there's 6f input lag and aerial landing lag was reduced. The result is the reward for making a read is much higher than the risk. If you have a good kill move like Charizard's Bair it's smart to go for huge payoff reads. Good read tools are more valuable than a superior neutral so you see neutral monsters like DH, Sheik and YL in high tier at best with characters like Bowser passing them.

________________
Anyone can potentially win through MU inexperience or sheer skill. With that said, 's bad. He has the obvious weakness to platforms from a poor air game but also gets juggled hard, is very light and has a terrible recovery. He's an extremely rigid glass cannon. Easily bottom 5.

's is really good, although not the best character. She's got strong tools that work in the meta, great mobility and versatile options, some fast, others long reaching. For weaknesses I'd say she has high commitment moves like grab, Usmash, UpB, not very good projectile play so she gets outcamped, a tall hurtbox, light weight, and can get outspaced by strong disjoints.

I played a good for the first time (because who the heck plays Corrin?) and can tell you she's not bottom of Orion Stats because she's bad. Probably mid tier. She's a watered down cross between Ike and Lucina with some good strings and good option coverage with big disjoint. IDK why we don't see more of her when worse characters get some spotlight. I guess she's outclassed by Lucina.

 

[Minordeth]

I played a good for the first time (because who the heck plays Corrin?) and can tell you she's not bottom of Orion Stats because she's bad. Probably mid tier.

Not to pick on you, but this is the exact situation half of the cast of characters find themselves in.

“I played a good (etc) for the first time, and can tell you [they] are not bottom of the Orion Stats because [they’re] bad. Probably mid-tier.”

Despite internet hyperbole, the reality is more than likely that almost the entire cast is, at least, regionally competitive. The actual relative power levels of a cast this large will take forever to filter out.

In other words, enjoy a State PR’d MK/Doc/whatever that places well at EVO or SSC causing cyclical re-evaluations of said character’s viability for the foreseeable future.

 

[BlackInk]

We're in a "strong reads meta". In Ultimate kill confirms were taken away from most of the cast, there's 6f input lag and aerial landing lag was reduced. The result is the reward for making a read is much higher than the risk. If you have a good kill move like Charizard's Bair it's smart to go for huge payoff reads. Good read tools are more valuable than a superior neutral so you see neutral monsters like DH, Sheik and YL in high tier at best with characters like Bowser passing them.

________________
Anyone can potentially win through MU inexperience or sheer skill. With that said, 's bad. He has the obvious weakness to platforms from a poor air game but also gets juggled hard, is very light and has a terrible recovery. He's an extremely rigid glass cannon. Easily bottom 5.

's is really good, although not the best character. She's got strong tools that work in the meta, great mobility and versatile options, some fast, others long reaching. For weaknesses I'd say she has high commitment moves like grab, Usmash, UpB, not very good projectile play so she gets outcamped, a tall hurtbox, light weight, and can get outspaced by strong disjoints.

I played a good for the first time (because who the heck plays Corrin?) and can tell you she's not bottom of Orion Stats because she's bad. Probably mid tier. She's a watered down cross between Ike and Lucina with some good strings and good option coverage with big disjoint. IDK why we don't see more of her when worse characters get some spotlight. I guess she's outclassed by Lucina.

“Anyone can potentially win with match up experience”
“it’s a strong reads meta”
These arguments are trash. Have you even actually played the game? There are so much risk free early kill moves that I have to say you’re lying. The hard read garbage only applies to characters with horrifically bad kill power or EARLY PERCENT kills and I’m going to criticize the game for it because it’s simply not fun or skilled at all. Sheik, Inkling, and Bayonetta players may know their match up but still can’t kill because their kill tools are absolute garbage.

 

[Rizen]

“Anyone can potentially win with match up experience”
“it’s a strong reads meta”
These arguments are trash. Have you even actually played the game? There are so much risk free early kill moves that I have to say you’re lying. The hard read garbage only applies to characters with horrifically bad kill power or EARLY PERCENT kills and I’m going to criticize the game for it because it’s simply not fun or skilled at all. Sheik, Inkling, and Bayonetta players may know their match up but still can’t kill because their kill tools are absolute garbage.

I'm so hard. How am I even supposed to respond to this? I regularly attend live tournaments (although not recently because of wrist injuries). What about you?

"There are so much risk free early kill moves that I have to say you’re lying."
This doesn't say anything. How does this show I'm lying? Some examples would help.

"The hard read garbage only applies to characters with horrifically bad kill power or EARLY PERCENT kills and I’m going to criticize the game for it because it’s simply not fun or skilled at all"
What?

"Sheik, Inkling, and Bayonetta players may know their match up but still can’t kill because their kill tools are absolute garbage."
says "Hi" from spot 14 on Orion Stats.
I suggest you watch Void, Cosmos and Salem for those characters respectively. I agree they're not the best at killing but they can surprise you too.

 

[NotLiquid]

People who conflate Inkling's killing power with Sheik/Bayo have no idea what they're talking about.

Inkling's killing tools are only sub-par relative to the top tier cast, i.e she's more comparable to Pikachu in the grand scheme of things - giving a character like that more killing power is insanity.

 

[Rizen]

Not to pick on you, but this is the exact situation half of the cast of characters find themselves in.

“I played a good (etc) for the first time, and can tell you [they] are not bottom of the Orion Stats because [they’re] bad. Probably mid-tier.”

Despite internet hyperbole, the reality is more than likely that almost the entire cast is, at least, regionally competitive. The actual relative power levels of a cast this large will take forever to filter out.

In other words, enjoy a State PR’d MK/Doc/whatever that places well at EVO or SSC causing cyclical re-evaluations of said character’s viability for the foreseeable future.

Except unlike them literally is on the bottom of Orion Stats.

 

[BlackInk]

People who conflate Inkling's killing power with Sheik/Bayo have no idea what they're talking about.

Inkling's killing tools are only sub-par relative to the top tier cast, i.e she's more comparable to Pikachu in the grand scheme of things - giving a character like that more killing power is insanity.

If Inkling killing mid-weights at ****ing 140%-150% is insane. Then I have to laugh my ass off when Gaming Watch, Zero Suit Samus, Joker, and Wario are in the game with truly absurd kill power and consistent kill confirms. Inkling still has dog crap kill power, it’s just that she debatably suffers the least of her character archetype because they don’t screw up of damage part of the kit. It doesn’t mean that the decisions with the archetype isn’t trash design that gets completely screwed over by rage and comeback BS! And Inkling killing at 190% is sub-pier only in comparison to top tiers? No, that is actually pretty bad in comparison to almost every character in the game except Bayo and Sheik (characters that belong in Inkling’s archetype),

Honestly, I have seen these kinds of trash arguments over and over again for these goddamn characters and I can’t comprehend why that is the case. Rage isn’t even that bad anymore with these characters and the characters don’t have any ridiculous early kill jank that we see in smash 4. What all of them need is a good kill condition somewhere at 140%-150% so they can’t be eventually screwed over by trash game design.

“ says "Hi" from spot 14 on Orion Stats.
I suggest you watch Void, Cosmos and Salem for those characters respectively. I agree they're not the best at killing but they can surprise you too.”

Yeah, because we have to care about ****ing obscure numbers that don’t mean jack. You don’t use ranks to determine whether or not the design decisions are dumb. Players right now don’t even know to how mash well (seriously, roller is hilariously mashable at 110%-140%) and in the past they use to have di so bad that they can’t get out of Pichu loops. I just think that if a character is supposed to become dangerously stupid somewhere at 130%-150% because of rage or comeback jank, they deserve to receive the risks of these advantages by dying around in these percentages. Doing this will also fix up the character archetype that these three characters are in.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

We're in a "strong reads meta". In Ultimate kill confirms were taken away from most of the cast, there's 6f input lag and aerial landing lag was reduced. The result is the reward for making a read is much higher than the risk. If you have a good kill move like Charizard's Bair it's smart to go for huge payoff reads. Good read tools are more valuable than a superior neutral so you see neutral monsters like DH, Sheik and YL in high tier at best with characters like Bowser passing them.

________________
Anyone can potentially win through MU inexperience or sheer skill. With that said, 's bad. He has the obvious weakness to platforms from a poor air game but also gets juggled hard, is very light and has a terrible recovery. He's an extremely rigid glass cannon. Easily bottom 5.

's is really good, although not the best character. She's got strong tools that work in the meta, great mobility and versatile options, some fast, others long reaching. For weaknesses I'd say she has high commitment moves like grab, Usmash, UpB, not very good projectile play so she gets outcamped, a tall hurtbox, light weight, and can get outspaced by strong disjoints.

I played a good for the first time (because who the heck plays Corrin?) and can tell you she's not bottom of Orion Stats because she's bad. Probably mid tier. She's a watered down cross between Ike and Lucina with some good strings and good option coverage with big disjoint. IDK why we don't see more of her when worse characters get some spotlight. I guess she's outclassed by Lucina.

Except unlike them literally is on the bottom of Orion Stats.

Well I know Corrin him/herself is not that popular a character outside of gameplay. Corrin is almost universaly reviled by the FE fanbase and there is 7 other FE characters to pick. Corrin was popular in Smash 4 becuase He/She was very good. That is not the case in Ultimate

 

[BlackInk]

Well I know Corrin him/herself is not that popular a character outside of gameplay. Corrin is almost universaly reviled by the FE fanbase and there is 7 other FE characters to pick. Corrin was popular in Smash 4 becuase He/She was very good. That is not the case in Ultimate

It’s ridiculous how much they butcher the character when they are pretty interesting and unique.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What is even being argued right now? That Inkling can’t kill? I thought that meme died a long time ago.

What exactly are you wanting? A character with high mobility and very safe buttons to have a strong kill button as well? I’m honestly lost.

And have you been hit by roller in those percentage range? Easy to mash out is not the word I would use to describe it.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Plus, Charzard is high risk and high reward??? Really, did you forget the pt gimmick?

No, I'm a PT main. Of course I didn't forget.

But when you're Charizard, you don't have quick access to squirtke f-tilt or Ivy Bair. His safest options are his frame 12 f-tilt and frame 14 bair, which he has to space to avoid being punished, which is especially hard with Bair. Thanks to his huge hurtbox and slow start up on his attacks, even just switching to Zard is a risk itself.

It’s simply is a huge problem because it rewards the opponent for losing and screws up the goddamn consistency of this game.

The problem here is that you're judging who's "winning" or not by who's dealt the most damage. That's only half the battle. Finding kills and taking risks to find them is a core, intended part of Smash's design. It why you can end stocks absurdly early by jumping off stage or landing a frame 20 move.

 

[BlackInk]

What is even being argued right now? That Inkling can’t kill? I thought that meme died a long time ago.

What exactly are you wanting? A character with high mobility and very safe buttons to have a strong kill button as well? I’m honestly lost.

And have you been hit by roller in those percentage range? Easy to mash out is not the word I would use to describe it.

The Inkling meme is far from dead when it keeps on happening and it’ll eventually become more of a reality once people actually learn how to mash well.

I want all characters to be able to kill an opponent who’s around 150% or slightly below. (Unless they have the pt gimmick.) I have seen non-arsene Joker work pretty well and fairly by having a decent, consistent high-percent kill option. Thus, I think that applying such an option will be healthy for characters such as Bayo, Inkling, and Sheik. Note that I don’t approve of them killing around 110%-130% with a normal.

If you think roller is the worse offender on the hands, you haven’t seen jack with Zero Suit and Gaming Watch.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The Inkling meme is far from dead when it keeps on happening and it’ll eventually become more of a reality once people actually learn how to mash well.

I want all characters to be able to kill an opponent who’s around 150% or slightly below. (Unless they have the pt gimmick.) I have seen non-arsene Joker work pretty well and fairly by having a decent, consistent high-percent kill option. Thus, I think that applying such an option will be healthy for characters such as Bayo, Inkling, and Sheik. Note that I don’t approve of them killing around 110%-120%.

If you think roller is the worse offender on the hands, you haven’t seen jack with Zero Suit and Gaming Watch.

Well I give you this. At the beginning of smash everyone was crying about how broken Inkings's Roller was because of its Bury property, so it got nerfed but ZSS's flip-jump remained under the radar. It may not be quite as easy to land as pre-nerf roller. But it is a whole lot safer, is a much more verstiale move and it can lead to kills around 90% or even earlier if at the ledge.

 

[BlackInk]

Well I give you this. At the beginning of smash everyone was crying about how broken Inkings's Roller was because of its Bury property, so it got nerfed but ZSS's flip-jump remained under the radar. It may not be quite as easy to land as pre-nerf roller. But it is a whole lot safer, is a much more verstiale move and it can lead to kills around 90% or even earlier if at the ledge.

I’m wondering why the smash team are so weirdly occupied when it comes to buries and the ultimate newcomers. It’s like they have no direction or decent design philosophy.

 

[blackghost]

Well I know Corrin him/herself is not that popular a character outside of gameplay. Corrin is almost universaly reviled by the FE fanbase and there is 7 other FE characters to pick. Corrin was popular in Smash 4 becuase He/She was very good. That is not the case in Ultimate

Corrin is ok. in gneral most older FE fans just consider the entire fates game set outside of one of them to be a mess. Corrin still easily dwarfs a character like roy. Long term though all three houses lords will be more liked though.especially Edelgaurd and Claude

i feel like inkling still gets slightly overrated in terms of killing power. its not something like bayo or shiek players are dealing with but when i watch inkling play against people that know the MU or arent just outclassed skillwise inkling has trouble fully securing stocks. ive seen this happen to cosmos and armada.

also when people say terms like "killing early" or "killing late" is there a general consensus on when that is? i always thought killing early was anything 130 percent or lower. mid kill power 140-160. and late 170 plus.

 

[BlackInk]

Corrin is ok. in gneral most older FE fans just consider the entire fates game set outside of one of them to be a mess. Corrin still easily dwarfs a character like roy. Long term though all three houses lords will be more liked though.especially Edelgaurd and Claude

i feel like inkling still gets slightly overrated in terms of killing power. its not something like bayo or shiek players are dealing with but when i watch inkling play against people that know the MU or arent just outclassed skillwise inkling has trouble fully securing stocks. ive seen this happen to cosmos and armada.

also when people say terms like "killing early" or "killing late" is there a general consensus on when that is? i always thought killing early was anything 130 percent or lower. mid kill power 140-160. and late 170 plus.

I actually don’t understand how people ever overestimated Inkling’s killing power. It feels like they haven’t actually played the character before or are ridiculously bias towards Inkling. Fears seem to over right any form of rationality and I especially have seen it with Inkling, Bayo, and Sheik. Giving them decent kill power when their opponent is around 140%-150% is way more healthier for this game than Warp, Arsene, or rage jank (because all them actually can consistently kill below 100%).

I don’t believe we have general terms about kill power but I do think you’re in the right track when it comes to percents.

 

[Rizen]

Corrin is ok. in gneral most older FE fans just consider the entire fates game set outside of one of them to be a mess. Corrin still easily dwarfs a character like roy. Long term though all three houses lords will be more liked though.especially Edelgaurd and Claude

i feel like inkling still gets slightly overrated in terms of killing power. its not something like bayo or shiek players are dealing with but when i watch inkling play against people that know the MU or arent just outclassed skillwise inkling has trouble fully securing stocks. ive seen this happen to cosmos and armada.

also when people say terms like "killing early" or "killing late" is there a general consensus on when that is? i always thought killing early was anything 130 percent or lower. mid kill power 140-160. and late 170 plus.

It's subjective but imo 90% and under is a strong kill option, 90s-120% is average, 120-150% is weak and above that is really weak.

 

[ZephyrZ]

To be honest a roll my eyes a bit when someone complains when their high tier isn't as good as the top tiers.

Its funny how someone's main effects their perceptions of balance. In the eyes of a lot of competitive players who play high tier characters, top of high tier / bottom of top tier seems to be what they see as a "solid and healthy" character. But to a lot of low tier mains, they'd kill to just be mid tiers, and mid tiers would kill to be high tiers. But nerf a top tier and many of their mains will insist it was unjustified.

I'm probably generalizing a bit though. Obviously not everyone is going to have their opinion determined soley by how good their main is. But having mained a low tier in 4 and a potential top tier in Ultimate, I've had an interesting shift in perspective.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It's subjective but imo 90% and under is a strong kill option, 90s-120% is average, 120-150% is weak and above that is really weak.

Many top-tiers do have those strong kill options that can kill around 90-120.

Here are just a few.


up-tilt
Arsene Bair
Full Waft (and then some)
Boost Kick and Flip-Jump options near the edge
Up-Smash
Bair or D-Smash

. Blue Pikmin up-throw


Of course while powerful kill options are important part of Smash, they do not make yoy good. I mean most superheavies have one or even sevreal options to kill you at like 70%, bit they usasully require the hardest of reads or are difficult to do consistenlty due to other reasons .

Then again the are the likes of. . Who dont nesecarlty have kill mives or confrims that kill early, but are overall super solid and opressive in thier own ways that they can control the game.

 

[BlackInk]

To be honest a roll my eyes a bit when someone complains when their high tier isn't as good as the top tiers.

Its funny how someone's main effects their perceptions of balance. In the eyes of a lot of competitive players who play high tier characters, top of high tier / bottom of top tier seems to be what they see as a "solid and healthy" character. But to a lot of low tier mains, they'd kill to just be mid tiers, and mid tiers would kill to be high tiers. But nerf a top tier and many of their mains will insist it was unjustified.

I'm probably generalizing a bit though. Obviously not everyone is going to have their opinion determined soley by how good their main is. But having mained a low tier in 4 and a potential top tier in Ultimate, I've had an interesting shift in perspective.

For me. I’m more focused on healthy game design that works. I only complain about the kill power of Inkling, Sheik, and Bayonetta because I believe that their designs are heavily mismanaged as it ultimately makes their damage rack thing feel kinda pointless. I don’t believe they deserve consistent and decent killing tools at 110% but I do think that getting to 140%—150% must be their ultimate aim of their damage kits for a gurrenteed kill. Obviously heavy weights will last a bit longer than that but it’ll be better to completely refine the hard kill archetype in this way when other archetypes tend to kill at 130% or below.

Peach kinda is a hard kill archetype except she does have some consistent and reliable kill moves at around 140%-150% percent and Pikachu also has these kinds of moves as well.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Good Bayonneta players gets more kills in edgeguards and gimps that straight kill moves, sheik and bayo arent similar at all, sheik has good neutral but terrible rack damage, bayonetta is the reverse, despite the 2 of them being light and lacking kill moves they arent related architype wise, is like saying ganon and incineroar are in the same archytpe because both of them are heavy and they both got hard hitting moves, if you want these character to be buffed is all good, but please try to make a specific case for each character, because they have different problems.

 

[BlackInk]

Good Bayonneta players gets more kills in edgeguards and gimps that straight kill moves, sheik and bayo arent similar at all, sheik has good neutral but terrible rack damage, bayonetta is the reverse, despite the 2 of them being light and lacking kill moves they arent related architype wise, is like saying ganon and incineroar are in the same archytpe because both of them are heavy and they both got hard hitting moves, if you want these character to be buffed is all good, but please try to make a specific case for each character, because they have different problems.

I only put them around the same archetype because they all depend on edgegaurding or gimps for consistent kills and they are supposed to be built for high damage but awful kill power. Note on the “supposed” part because the smash team have not done a good job on Bayo or Sheik. My problem stems from how absurdly bad their kill power is because rage is still a mechanic and tons of characters have stupidly amazing recoveries and early kill jank. They have problems but they don’t deserve that bs for doing well.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Doesn't seem really necessary to post, but standings for Summit are revealed:

1. MKLeo
2. Marss ()
3. Zackray ()
4. Nairo
5. Tea
6. Tweek ()
7. Samsora
8. ESAM
9. Light
10. Maister
11. Dabuz ()
12. VoiD
13. Leffen ()
14. MuteAce ()
15. RFang ()
16. Armada

Round Robins are arranged as such:

Pool 1: MKLeo ESAM Light Armada
Pool 2: Marss () Maister Samsora RFang ()
Pool 3: zackray () Tweek () Dabuz () MuteAce ()
Pool 4: Tea Nairo VoiD Leffen ()

 

[Lacrimosa]

Really weird seeding.
Not that it matters that much, but some placements require some explanation, like Dabuz or Tweek (wtf).
You get invited directly but aren't even 2nd seed seems weird.

 

[PK Gaming]

A big problem I have been noticing is that the meta gets incredibly inconsistent because of the rage mechanic and the fact we don’t actually give a great chunk of characters kill conditions even when the opponent is at 140% or 150%. It makes the game pretty dumb because it means you get punished for playing Inkling, Peach, or Sheik incredibly well and die because of some random Charzard up-air, back air, or some other kill happy moves.

We seen far too many of these cases. For a recent example, Esam was dominating Kamaine so ridiculously hard in their tournament stock but then he had one slip up and died at 40%, mid-stage... It’s extremely gross design.

You're conflating the rage mechanic with the waft, a move that is blatantly overtuned

 

[|RK|]

Really weird seeding.
Not that it matters that much, but some placements require some explanation, like Dabuz or Tweek (wtf).
You get invited directly but aren't even 2nd seed seems weird.

Round Robin seeding has to take the pools into account, too. True seeding is going to come from the results of those pools.

 

[BlackInk]

You're conflating the rage mechanic with the waft, a move that is blatantly overtuned

Yes, because it boosts up ANY kill moves to higher levels of ridiculousness.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Doesn't seem really necessary to post, but standings for Summit are revealed:

1. MKLeo
2. Marss ()
3. Zackray ()
4. Nairo
5. Tea
6. Tweek ()
7. Samsora
8. ESAM
9. Light
10. Maister
11. Dabuz ()
12. VoiD
13. Leffen ()
14. MuteAce ()
15. RFang ()
16. Armada

Round Robins are arranged as such:

Pool 1: MKLeo ESAM Light Armada
Pool 2: Marss () Maister Samsora RFang ()
Pool 3: zackray () Tweek () Dabuz () MuteAce ()
Pool 4: Tea Nairo VoiD Leffen ()

Lol. Zackray is in the same pool with Tweek and Dabuz, the players he beat Twice to not only win Big House 9 but also secure his spot in the Summit.

Maister is also in the samd pool as Marss, where Maister is known to make unfortunate moves and SD's that lead to his losses in thier sets.

 

[AxelVDP]

Yes, because it boosts up ANY kill moves to higher levels of ridiculousness.

Dude, ultimate rage is a joke compared to smash4 rage, and even that mechanic was not making the game as volatile as you're describing it. If rage really did make the game less skill based you would not have had players with the consistency of ZeRo, or even MKLeo here in ultimate.
Is rage a good mechanic in concept? probably not.
Is smash ultimate rage an intrusive mechanic? no.

 

[KirbySquad101]

To go off of what RK said, there is technical four "1st seeds" when you consider there's 4 groups of 4 for the Round Robin Pools.

It's more accurate to think of the seeding less as: 1. MKLeo 2. Marss etc, ... and more as:

1. MKLeo Marss () Nairo zackray ()
2. Tweek () ESAM Tea Samsora
3. Dabuz Maister Light VoiD
4. Leffen () RFang () Armada MuteAce ()

 

[BlackInk]

Dude, ultimate rage is a joke compared to smash4 rage, and even that mechanic was not making the game as volatile as you're describing it. If rage really did make the game less skill based you would not have had players with the consistency of ZeRo, or even MKLeo here in ultimate.
Is rage a good mechanic in concept? probably not.
Is smash ultimate rage an intrusive mechanic? no.

Ultimate rage is not a joke for characters with ridiculously awful kill power and even lose their kill confirms because of it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I watched through the Smash Ultimate Summit 2 Squad Strike event. MkLeo won the event.

Leo was displaying some pretty fire and (especially) gameplay.
The Marth gameplay especially stood out to me, as he was executing some pretty nice conversions and combos that I thought he didn't have anymore. A lot of Leo's biggest stocks and wins was because of Marth (I think he used him more than any of his other characters).

Zackray's and Tea's was also pretty nice to see.

 

[BlackInk]

I watched through the Smash Ultimate Summit 2 Squad Strike event. MkLeo won the event.

Leo was displaying some pretty fire and (especially) gameplay.
The Marth gameplay especially stood out to me, as he was executing some pretty nice conversions and combos that I thought he didn't have anymore. A lot of Leo's biggest stocks and wins was because of Marth (I think he used him more than any of his other characters).

Zackray's and Tea's was also pretty nice to see.

Ridley recently has some really unexpected results.

 

[Idon]

While it's not exactly a "real" tournament, MKLeo's Marth is really impressing me. I have to wonder if it's truly Marth's own character strength or if it's just MKLeo's skills making him look on par with the rest of the top tiers.

 

[Rizen]

I'd like to see more squad strike. It's fun to see all the uncommon character secondaries

 

[BlackInk]

I'd like to see more squad strike. It's fun to see all the uncommon character secondaries

Squad Strike is a mess. If they have the pt gimmick and have it switch between two characters, the mode will be so much better.