Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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I wi give Salem this. His Hero is actullay looking pretty legit. Hero's RNag jank was not much of a factor in the set vs Bestness . He basically controlled the set with spacing of thr heros better ranged airiels and great use of Neutral and Side specials

But I guess it helps that Ness hates dealing with down-b moves like Accelerate and Bounce
 
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The_Bookworm

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I wi give Salem this. His Hero is actullay looking pretty legit. Hero's RNag jank was not much of a factor in the set vs Bestness . He basically controlled the set with spacing of thr heros better ranged airiels and great use of Neutral and Side specials

But I guess it helps that Ness hates dealing with down-b moves like Accelerate and Bounce
Salem used Hero to beat BestNess the last time they fought too, so it wasn't much surprise that Salem knew that it would work and he knows his habits.

I am a little surprised that BestNess didn't try the Palutena, but his Palu didn't do too well against Salem the last time they fought, so I guess BestNess decided to not even bother.

Nightmare on Smashville Top 4

Winner's Side:

Maister :ultgnw: vs Cosmos :ultinkling:

Loser's Side:

LeoN :ultbowser: vs Salem :ultsnake::ulthero::ultbayonetta:
I like how the vast majority of the event contenders used only one character, with only a few of them using two characters.
And then you realize that Salem completely sticks out like a sore thumb by using about 4 characters in this event (Snake, Hero, Bayo, Shulk).
 
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From a close 2-3 at Full Bloom 5 to a swift 3-0 at Nightmare at Smashville. Cosmos did the classic "try to go full aggression against G&W which is the worst thing to do against G&W" during games 1 and 2 and Maister punished him HARD for it (G&W BS edgeguarding also kinda helped, though).

He started adapting better game 3 when starting using Inkling's Bair to snuff out GnW's buttons, but it was too late by that time. That said Maister did a phenomenal job of positioning himself to catch and punish everything Cosmos threw at him, and knew just how to edgeguard him everytime. Maister also seems way more calm compared to his more recent tournament runs, not popping off once, even against Salem.

Maister :ultgnw: 3-0s Cosmos :ultinkling: to advance to Grand Finals. As of now, Maister is the most poised to earn the last Summit spot, but anything can change.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Mexican Gaming Championship

1st: Dark Wizzy:ultmario:
2nd: Nair^:ultridley:
3rd: Chag:ultpalutena::ultinkling:
4th: MVD:ultsnake:
5th: Javi:ultwolf::ultlucina::ultsheik::ultcloud:
5th: Hyuga:ulttoonlink::ultsnake:
7th: MkBryanZ:ultwolf:
7th: Leaf:ultpeach::ultdaisy::ultbayonetta:



2GG: Nightmare on Smashville

1st: Maister:ultgnw:
2nd: Cosmos:ultinkling:
3rd: Salem:ultsnake::ulthero:
4th: LeoN:ultbowser:
5th: BestNess:ultness::ultpalutena:
5th: Nicko:ultshulk:
7th: Lui$:ultfox::ultmario:
7th: Larry Lurr:ultwolf:
9th: Jakal:ultwolf:
9th: Rivers:ultchrom:
9th: AlexDisC:ultsonic:
9th: Prodigy:ultmario:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Here is our 16 official attendees for Smash Ultimate Summit 2:
MkLeo:ultjoker: (Invited directly)
Tweek:ultpokemontrainerf::ultwario: (Invited directly)
Nairo:ultpalutena: (1st at Mainstage)
Marss:ultzss: (3rd at Mainstage)
Light:ultfox: (4th at Mainstage)
VoiD:ultsheik::ultpichu: (5th at Mainstage)
Tea:ultpacman: (5th at Mainstage)
MuteAce:ultpeach: (7th at Mainstage)
Leffen:ultpokemontrainerf: (Voted in at September 30th)
RFang:ultpichu: (Voted in at September 30th)
Armada:ultinkling: (Voted in at October 1st)
Samsora:ultpeach: (Voted in at October 1st)
ESAM:ultpikachu: (Voted in at October 2nd)
Zackray:ultrob::ultjoker::ultwolf: (1st at Big House 9)
Dabuz:ultolimar::ultrosalina: (2nd at Big House 9)
Maister:ultgnw: (1st at Nightmare at Smashville)
 
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im pretty sure salem went bayo vs game and watch because he doesnt think his shulk is good enough and game and watch beats hero pretty soundly.

always great to see bayo even if every time it is a painful experience.

summit is looking great. Best overall player, top 2 peaches. best pacman, best game and watch, best trainer, best wolf, best pikachu, best pichu? gonna be a fun event.
 
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Time for a little wrap before the constant slew of A Tier events that'll be coming our way this week:

- :ultgnw:, forever a mid-tier, has won another B-Tier event.

Jokes aside, though, good stuff to Maister, but it's also good that people have been getting better at fighting Game and Watch; best change I've seen in player's gameplay is learning how to play around USmash spam; outside of a fatal jump-in from Larry Lurr, I can't actual recall a lot of times a player ended up dying to USmash. It's a strong move and scary to challenge, but it's also slow and lacks a disjoint, and both Salem and Charliedaking managed to take full advantage of that; Salem used Witch Twist/Afterburner Kick to punish it well from a distance, and Charlie used Dash Attack as a burst option to constantly snuff it out. They've also gotten better at countering DAir spam, another scary move to challenge. It also isn't active forever, has high ending lag, and it's very easy to see coming and reacting to if a G&W is coming at you with it from 50 feet away. Maister attempted such a strategy against Charlie, and he knew how to counter it every time. Maister ended up actually performing better when he was learning when to fall at the opponent with DAir, drift away with it, or just not using it general, preferring for the traditional "fall-then-air-dodge". Just goes to show that as good as some of G&W's moves are, they're not unbeatable, and there is counterplay towards them.

Funny enough, the moves that seemed to trip players up the most (besides Fire) is well, FAir and UAir, the former which is often considered the black sheep of G&W's movesest (Pssssttt, it's actually UTilt that's the sore spot of his moveset). UAir sort of speaks for itself: It's free and noncommittal pressure, keeps opponents in disadvantage forever, combos into other shiz, and it gets opponents where G&W wants them. The move is especially volatile at FD where juggling strategies are much more prominent, and it's a large part of why G&W does so well at FD.

FAir is a bit more interesting, however; you'd think that even with Biddy's tweet on countering Full Hop-FAir, the move would fall off... but it hasn't. In fact, watching every set on stream with Maister, that's pretty much how he got half of his kills. Turns out the move is actually kind of scary to combat when A. You're trying to get off the ledge, B. You can use the ground, air, and platforms to mix up the timing of the attack, and C. The move is absurdly safe on block, even when preemptively landing with it. And yet, no one talks about the move when bringing up what's "dumb" about G&W. It's always "DSmash to kill at %60 is cancer, Frame 3 UpB spam is bad design, DAir is stupid", yet Dabuz is the only one to catch on how potentially dangerous the bomb dropper can actually be. From what I've seen, people have been getting better at fighting BAir, people have been getting better at fighting USmash, heck, people have even gotten better at fighting Fire, but FAir? People continue to get tripped up by it, probably more than they should. Like Tim said in earlier post, people seriously need to start coming up with counterplay against FAir. Because for a move that's often meme'd and dumped on, it was pretty much Maister's saving grace this tournament, ESPECIALLY against Charlie.

- That said, the one character I actually wanted to go into a bit was :ultlink:, or more specifically, Rex's run with the character at Nightmare on Smashville. Rex is a bit of an interesting player for two reasons: 1. He's very inactive, primarily due to school reasons, and 2. Rex has little to no development in Link's bomb play. Despite this, he had a great run at Nightmare, beating out K9sbruce, bringing Lui$ to game 5, and even beat out Pandarian, all through a combination of a wall created by FAirs, Boomerangs, OoS Spin Attacks, and NAirs. I'm not sure if this means with Remote Bomb play, Rex could potentially be even more insane, or if this means Link doesn't need Remote Bombs? I don't know, but either way, I look forward to seeing how Rex plays in the future.


- We got to see a really strong performance this week by :ultridley:, courtesy of NAir^'s recent success; he got 2nd at Mexican Gaming Championship, going all the way to the Winner's Side of Grand Finals, and even taking out Dark Wizzy along the way. I'll have to re-evaluate his sets earlier to see what's going on with Ridley, but it's a great sign of things to come for the purple lizard, especially after player's opinions have fallen of him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not long before Summit begins, but before that, we're due for another Umebura A-Tier event, this time Umebura SP6. It's looking stacked as heck once again.

Notable players (It's POSSIBLE I might miss one, so in the case I do, feel free to point it out):

T :ultlink:
Kameme :ultmegaman::ultwario:
Rotsuko :ultyoshi:
Ron :ultyoshi::ultmario:(:ultluigi:)
Masashi :ultcloud:
YOC :ultjoker:
KEN :ultsonic:
Kome :ultshulk:
DoubleA :ultshulk:
Nietono :ultpichu:
Choco :ultzss:
ProtoBanham :ultlucina:(:ultinkling:)
HIKARU :ultpokemontrainer::ultwario:
Tsu :ultlucario:
Shuton :ultolimar:(:ultshulk:)
Abadango :ultwario::ultpalutena::ultinkling:
Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
kept :ultvillager:(:ultisabelle:)
Brood :ultpiranha::ultbanjokazooie:
shky :ultzss:
Gackt :ultness:
Lea :ultgreninja:
Somé :ultgreninja:
Kirihara :ultrosalina:(:ultsheik:)
Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf:
ZAKI :ultkingdedede:
Etsuji :ultlucina::ultpalutena:
Lunamado :ultpichu:
Arika :ultjigglypuff:
Umeki :ultdaisy:
Akasa :ultjoker:
Eim :ultjoker:
Rain :ultjoker:
OCEAN :ultrob:
Somo :ultrob:
Shogun :ultsnake:
Logix :ultike:
Tsumusuto :ultdoc:
AIR :ultfalcon:
Yamanyon :ultzss:
Suinoko :ultyounglink:
Pasemiran :ultdiddy:
Kuro :ultzss:
 
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Time for a little wrap before the constant slew of A Tier events that'll be coming our way this week:

- :ultgnw:, forever a mid-tier, has won another B-Tier event.

Jokes aside, though, good stuff to Maister, but it's also good that people have been getting better at fighting Game and Watch; best change I've seen in player's gameplay is learning how to play around USmash spam; outside of a fatal jump-in from Larry Lurr, I can't actual recall a lot of times a player ended up dying to USmash. It's a strong move and scary to challenge, but it's also slow and lacks a disjoint, and both Salem and Charliedaking managed to take full advantage of that; Salem used Witch Twist/Afterburner Kick to punish it well from a distance, and Charlie used Dash Attack as a burst option to constantly snuff it out. They've also gotten better at countering DAir spam, another scary move to challenge. It also isn't active forever, has high ending lag, and it's very easy to see coming and reacting to if a G&W is coming at you with it from 50 feet away. Maister attempted such a strategy against Charlie, and he knew how to counter it every time. Maister ended up actually performing better when he was learning when to fall at the opponent with DAir, drift away with it, or just not using it general. Just goes to show that as good as some of G&W's moves are, they're not unbeatable, and there is counterplay towards them.

Funny enough, the moves that seemed to trip players up the most (besides Fire) is well, FAir and UAir, the former which is often considered the black sheep of G&W's movesest (Pssssttt, it's actually UTilt that's the sore spot of his moveset). UAir sort of speaks for itself: It's free and noncommittal pressure, keeps opponents in disadvantage forever, combos into other shiz, and it gets opponents where G&W wants them. The move is especially volatile at FD where juggling strategies are much more prominent, and it's a large part of why G&W does so well at FD.

FAir is a bit more interesting, however; you'd think that even with Biddy's tweet on countering Full Hop-FAir, the move would fall off... but it hasn't. In fact, watching every set on stream with Maister, that's pretty much how he got half of his kills. Turns out the move is actually kind of scary to combat when A. You're trying to get off the ledge, B. You can use the ground, air, and platforms to mix up the timing of the attack, and C. The move is absurdly safe on block, even when preemptively landing with it. And yet, no one talks about the move when bringing up what's "dumb" about G&W. It's always "DSmash to kill at %60 is cancer, Frame 3 UpB spam is bad design, DAir is stupid", yet Dabuz is the only one to catch on how potentially dangerous the bomb dropper can actually be. From what I've seen, people have been getting better at fighting BAir, people have been getting better at fighting USmash, heck, people have even gotten better at fighting Fire, but FAir? People continue to get tripped up by it, probably more than they should. Like Tim said in earlier post, people seriously need to start coming up with counterplay against FAir. Because for a move that's often meme'd and dumped on, it was pretty much Maister's saving grace this tournament, ESPECIALLY against Charlie.
Just some comments on G&W's tools I saw this weekend (and in general).
  • I can't really consider D-air from above stage that great considering G&W has his sides exposed with the move. If you try challenging the move above, then chances are, you're going to get hit. While there are a few moves out there that can outright beat the key (Palutena's and Toon Link's Up-Air come to mind for me), it's better to just hit him by the side to either trade or not get hit. Now, off stage D-air is a different beast where beating it is both risky and more challenging.
  • While Up-Tilt is his weakest move (in terms of practicality), at least it isn't useless or demoralizing. B-air's landing hitbox sends opponents nowhere to the point where it can prevent KOs at high percents thanks to its knockback overlapping with the final hit of B-air.
  • Counerplay to Up-Smash can be better. Larry Lurr showed that using a projectile from a distance is, well, a great option that forces G&W to stop and possible approach if he loses the lead. I found it infuriating to see Cosmos not use Splattershot or Splat Bomb to do something against Maister's Up-Smash as that may have conditioned him to no longer go for randy Up-Smashes. It's also not safe on parry (as Cosmos demonstrated, which is something I'm glad he did), and while parries are not that great in this game, I do think against moves that are safe on shield, parrying has some merit to use.
  • Trying to punish G&W's F-air will take some time as it is an unorthodox aerial. I imagine it won't be until Genesis 7 / EVO Japan that proper counterplay to is implemented on a large scale. I'm more looking forward to the counter-counterplay that G&Ws will come up with.
Also, if I recall, I thought :ultbowser: was forever a mid-tier, regardless of results.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,813
Location
United States of Russia
- :ultgnw:, forever a mid-tier, has won another B-Tier event.

Jokes aside, though, good stuff to Maister, but it's also good that people have been getting better at fighting Game and Watch; best change I've seen in player's gameplay is learning how to play around USmash spam; outside of a fatal jump-in from Larry Lurr, I can't actual recall a lot of times a player ended up dying to USmash. It's a strong move and scary to challenge, but it's also slow and lacks a disjoint, and both Salem and Charliedaking managed to take full advantage of that; Salem used Witch Twist/Afterburner Kick to punish it well from a distance, and Charlie used Dash Attack as a burst option to constantly snuff it out.
CDK punished them by the end but he missed a lot of opportunities to blaster Usmash. I'm glad G&W's not getting away with this stuff as much any more.

:ultgnw:'s Usmash is a good example of a low risk read I was talking about (as opposed to :ultyounglink:'s Usmash which lasts 69 frames and gets punished every time on wiff). Maister just got careless and spammed it. The meta's all about being good with these kinds of reads. :ultmario:'s Usmash is another common example.
 

Idon

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Messages
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Amala Network
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Switch FC
King of Chaos
Time for a little wrap before the constant slew of A Tier events that'll be coming our way this week:

- :ultgnw:, forever a mid-tier, has won another B-Tier event.

Jokes aside, though, good stuff to Maister, but it's also good that people have been getting better at fighting Game and Watch; best change I've seen in player's gameplay is learning how to play around USmash spam; outside of a fatal jump-in from Larry Lurr, I can't actual recall a lot of times a player ended up dying to USmash. It's a strong move and scary to challenge, but it's also slow and lacks a disjoint, and both Salem and Charliedaking managed to take full advantage of that; Salem used Witch Twist/Afterburner Kick to punish it well from a distance, and Charlie used Dash Attack as a burst option to constantly snuff it out. They've also gotten better at countering DAir spam, another scary move to challenge. It also isn't active forever, has high ending lag, and it's very easy to see coming and reacting to if a G&W is coming at you with it from 50 feet away. Maister attempted such a strategy against Charlie, and he knew how to counter it every time. Maister ended up actually performing better when he was learning when to fall at the opponent with DAir, drift away with it, or just not using it general. Just goes to show that as good as some of G&W's moves are, they're not unbeatable, and there is counterplay towards them.

Funny enough, the moves that seemed to trip players up the most (besides Fire) is well, FAir and UAir, the former which is often considered the black sheep of G&W's movesest (Pssssttt, it's actually UTilt that's the sore spot of his moveset). UAir sort of speaks for itself: It's free and noncommittal pressure, keeps opponents in disadvantage forever, combos into other shiz, and it gets opponents where G&W wants them. The move is especially volatile at FD where juggling strategies are much more prominent, and it's a large part of why G&W does so well at FD.

FAir is a bit more interesting, however; you'd think that even with Biddy's tweet on countering Full Hop-FAir, the move would fall off... but it hasn't. In fact, watching every set on stream with Maister, that's pretty much how he got half of his kills. Turns out the move is actually kind of scary to combat when A. You're trying to get off the ledge, B. You can use the ground, air, and platforms to mix up the timing of the attack, and C. The move is absurdly safe on block, even when preemptively landing with it. And yet, no one talks about the move when bringing up what's "dumb" about G&W. It's always "DSmash to kill at %60 is cancer, Frame 3 UpB spam is bad design, DAir is stupid", yet Dabuz is the only one to catch on how potentially dangerous the bomb dropper can actually be. From what I've seen, people have been getting better at fighting BAir, people have been getting better at fighting USmash, heck, people have even gotten better at fighting Fire, but FAir? People continue to get tripped up by it, probably more than they should. Like Tim said in earlier post, people seriously need to start coming up with counterplay against FAir. Because for a move that's often meme'd and dumped on, it was pretty much Maister's saving grace this tournament, ESPECIALLY against Charlie.

- That said, the one character I actually wanted to go into a bit was :ultlink:, or more specifically, Rex's run with the character at Nightmare on Smashville. Rex is a bit of an interesting player for two reasons: 1. He's very inactive, primarily due to school reasons, and 2. Rex has little to no development in Link's bomb play. Despite this, he had a great run at Nightmare, beating out K9sbruce, bringing Lui$ to game 5, and even beat out Pandarian, all through a combination of a wall created by FAirs, Boomerangs, OoS Spin Attacks, and NAirs. I'm not sure if this means with Remote Bomb play, Rex could potentially be even more insane, or if this means Link doesn't need Remote Bombs? I don't know, but either way, I look forward to seeing how Rex plays in the future.


- We got to see a really strong performance this week by :ultridley:, courtesy of NAir^'s recent success; he got 2nd at Mexican Gaming Championship, going all the way to the Winner's Side of Grand Finals, and even taking out Dark Wizzy along the way. I'll have to re-evaluate his sets earlier to see what's going on with Ridley, but it's a great sign of things to come for the purple lizard, especially after player's opinions have fallen of him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not long before Summit begins, but before that, we're due for another Umebura A-Tier event, this time Umebura SP6. It's looking stacked as heck once again.

Notable players (It's POSSIBLE I might miss one, so in the case I do, feel free to point it out):

T :ultlink:
Kameme :ultmegaman::ultwario:
Rotsuko :ultyoshi:
Ron :ultyoshi::ultmario:(:ultluigi:)
Masashi :ultcloud:
YOC :ultjoker:
KEN :ultsonic:
Kome :ultshulk:
DoubleA :ultshulk:
Nietono :ultpichu:
Choco :ultzss:
ProtoBanham :ultlucina:(:ultinkling:)
HIKARU :ultpokemontrainer::ultwario:
Tsu :ultlucario:
Shuton :ultolimar:(:ultshulk:)
Abadango :ultwario::ultpalutena::ultinkling:
Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
kept :ultvillager:(:ultisabelle:)
Brood :ultpiranha::ultbanjokazooie:
shky :ultzss:
Gackt :ultness:
Lea :ultgreninja:
Somé :ultgreninja:
Kirihara :ultrosalina:(:ultsheik:)
Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf:
ZAKI :ultkingdedede:
Etsuji :ultlucina::ultpalutena:
Lunamado :ultpichu:
Arika :ultjigglypuff:
Umeki :ultdaisy:
Akasa :ultjoker:
Eim :ultjoker:
Rain :ultjoker:
OCEAN :ultrob:
Somo :ultrob:
Shogun :ultsnake:
Logix :ultike:
Tsumusuto :ultdoc:
AIR :ultfalcon:
Yamanyon :ultzss:
Suinoko :ultyounglink:
Pasemiran :ultdiddy:
Kuro :ultzss:
An Ike player? And a Jiggs player?
In late 2019?
In this kind of meta?

Oh, this I gotta see.
 
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Anomika

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
84
Well this is interesting... Ark just beat Kirihara's Rosalina and Luma :ultrosalina:... with Ike :ultike:. This is one of more unexpected upsets for me

Edit:
And now Munekin with Ryu :ultryu: and Ken :ultken: beat Shuton's Olimar :ultolimar: and Richter :ultrichter:, but I will say that Shuton almost had it.
 
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Cheryl~

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 27, 2018
Messages
257
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huge upset just happened. Munekin :ultryu::ultken: 2-1 over Shuton :ultolimar::ultrichter: in Winners Side Top 128. Shuton's got a long Losers bracket ahead of him if he wants to win this Umebura.

Another notable upset is Daiki :ulticeclimbers: winning 2-0 over Brood :ultbanjokazooie:.
 
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And like that, Arika's :ultjigglypuff: out at 65th. A shame to see, but a lot of big players seem to be sitting in Loser's, namely Gackt :ultness: and Kome :ultshulk:. Japan's scene feels so scary sometimes, it's like you could be a top 5 player there, and STILL possibly get upsetted as early as the Top 394.

EDIT: Rain :ultjoker: is also out at 65th place.

EDIT 2: Brood :ultbanjokazooie: is out at 65th place. Rotsuko :ultyoshi:, akasa :ultjoker:, and OCEAN :ultrob: are out at 49th place.

Just some comments on G&W's tools I saw this weekend (and in general).
  • I can't really consider D-air from above stage that great considering G&W has his sides exposed with the move. If you try challenging the move above, then chances are, you're going to get hit. While there are a few moves out there that can outright beat the key (Palutena's and Toon Link's Up-Air come to mind for me), it's better to just hit him by the side to either trade or not get hit. Now off stage D-air is a different beast where beating it is both risky and more challenging.
  • While Up-Tilt is his weakest move (in terms of practicality), at least it isn't useless or demoralizing. B-air's landing hitbox sends opponents nowhere to the point where it can prevent KOs at high percents thanks to its knockback overlapping with the final hit of B-air.
  • Counerplay to Up-Smash can be better. Larry Lurr showed that using a projectile from a distance is, well, a great option that forces G&W to stop and possible approach if he loses the lead. I found it infuriating to see Cosmos not use Splattershot or Splat Bomb to do something against Maister's Up-Smash as that may have conditioned him to no longer go for randy Up-Smashes. It's also not safe on parry (as Cosmos demonstrated, which is something I'm glad he did), and while parries are not that great in this game, I do think against moves that are safe on shield, parrying has some merit to use.
  • Trying to punish G&W's F-air will take some time as it is an unorthodox aerial. I imagine it won't be until Genesis 7 / EVO Japan that proper counterplay to is implemented on a large scale. I'm more looking forward to the counter-counterplay that G&Ws will come up with.
Also, if I recall, I thought :ultbowser: was forever a mid-tier, regardless of results.
Haha, funny enough, I took the little joke quote from RK's quote on Bowser winning Run it Back sorry RK XD. For real, though, I'd be a little surprised if anyone still thinks Bowser is a mid tier. While LeoN hasn't been steamrolling opponents like he had at Battle for the East, he's still been one of the most consistent performers this season.

  • I can see it being a little hard to catch DAir from the sides due to Mr. Game and Watch falling fairly quick, unless said character has a move with a lot of horizontal range (something like :ultbayonetta:'s Afterburner Kick). That said, it is definitely a better option to go for instead of just jumping into it head first *cough*Samsora*cough*. If you can, shielding it is definitely the best option as the move is -17 frames on block.
  • It does do its job as a combo move/extender, especially with the knockback buff (now BACK then, that move was pretty much non-functional), but it its meh start-up and limited range make it rather hard to combo off of NAir/FAir. To be fair, I'm guessing that's the trade-off for the attack doing 14% damage.
  • Yeeeeaaahhhh, out of everyone that fought Maister, Cosmos was the one who was definitely looked the most lost fighting his G&W. From the sounds of it, he lacks much experience in the match-up (and doesn't really have any means to practice it either, according to his tweet). That said, projectiles work well as a punish option USmash as well; it's less rewarding than potentially getting a melee move, but it's also safer and you're not throwing yourself at risk either. At the very least, Maister will be more wary about throwing the move out carelessly. You bringing up parry does make me wonder about the possible implications of using it as G&W. USmash is really slow for an OoS, and Fire, while good, doesn't kill, so parry into FTilt sounds like it could be a good option for G&W players to utilize in the future.
  • From the looks of it, FAir is the most underdeveloped move from both sides of the spectrum (how the G&W player uses it versus how the opponent counters it); as of now, it can be hard to tricky/challenge because Maister triggers the explosion preemptively, and its hitbox is actually fairly generous (10 units big, about the same as Splatbomb). From what I've heard, Maister is fairly confident in adapting to the counterplay players seem to have developed against G&W. I'd honestly believe it, given how quickly Maister's dropped his double-FAir-from-a-full-hop setups.
I'm just glad people aren't jumping into NAir as a get-up option anymore, or at least, not as much as before.

CDK punished them by the end but he missed a lot of opportunities to blaster Usmash. I'm glad G&W's not getting away with this stuff as much any more.

:ultgnw:'s Usmash is a good example of a low risk read I was talking about (as opposed to :ultyounglink:'s Usmash which lasts 69 frames and gets punished every time on wiff). Maister just got careless and spammed it. The meta's all about being good with these kinds of reads. :ultmario:'s Usmash is another common example.
I think that's the general gist of it; a lot of the counterplay against G&W during Nightmare wasn't necessarily to invalidate Maister's options, but rather to tell him, "Dude, there's a time and a place for everything. As tempting as it is to throw out the Key or Helmet, it's better to put it away for now". Maister ended up performing a lot better after his set against Charlie and didn't get quite as careless with the USmash or DAir spam. USmash is definitely a strong move in that it's low committal and absurdly strong, but its strengths shine moreso when used as a mix-up option. This is something I'll commend DW for, as he's gotten much better when to throw out :ultmario:'s USmash. Because as low risk as that move is, even that move comes with its own set of drawbacks (punishable on shield unless charged, fairly weak for a smash attack).

For ground control, I actually think G&W's DSmash has the edge over USmash; its duration matches USmash with twice as much horizontal range and an even greater reward off of it. I think fitting that and a few other options into Maister's gameplan definitely helps in lessening the predictability of USmash.
 
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Das Koopa

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add :ultzss: to the list of characters with better overall portfolios than :ultjoker:

if Choco's consistency wasn't enough, now Kuro is a major winner
 
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I think in a brief interview Thunder Gaming had with Japan's players where they asked them who they thought the best character in the game was, a pretty sizable chunk said :ultzss:. Given the monopolization ZSS currently has in Japan, it's not really hard to see why.

Umebura SP6 results:

1. Kuro :ultzss:
2. Kameme :ultmegaman::ultwario::ultsheik:
3. Umeki :ultdaisy:
4. KEN :ultsonic:
5. ProtoBanham :ultlucina::ultinkling::ultbanjokazooie:
5. Lea :ultgreninja::ultchrom:
7. Nietono :ultpichu:
7. Ron :ultyoshi::ultmario:
9. Somé :ultgreninja:
9. kept :ultvillager::ultisabelle:
9. Munekin :ultryu::ultken:
9. Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf:
13. T :ultlink:
13. Etsuji :ultlucina::ultpalutena:
13. HIKARU :ultpokemontrainer::ultluigi:
13. Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
17. Tsu :ultlucario::ulthero:
17. Choco :ultzss:
17. Jagaimo :ultpalutena:
17. Abadango :ultpalutena::ultmetaknight::ultwario:
17. Gackt :ultness:
17. Mossan :ultpichu::ultjoker:
17. Es :ultzss:
17. Higusaki :ultwolf:
25. ZAKI :ultkingdedede::ultbanjokazooie:
25. AIR :ultfalcon:
25. FSann :ultness:
25. shky :ultzss:
25. Yaminabe :ultlittlemac:
25. Hikari :ultwolf::ultshulk:
25. Purueight :ultrob:
25. Yamanyon :ultzss:
33. YOC :ultjoker::ultcloud:
33. Tarakotori :ultlittlemac:
33. huto :ultwario:
33. Twinkle :ultdiddy:
33. Shuton :ultolimar::ultrichter:
33. Maku :ultbanjokazooie:
33. Tofu :ultyoshi:
33. Kome :ultshulk:
33. Koriotsu :ultrobin:
33. Daiki :ulticeclimbers:
33. Tsumusuto :ultdoc::ultgunner:
33. takoman :ultcloud:
33. Ark :ultike:
33. Hiragi :ultfox::ultjoker::ultwolf::ultfalco:
33. Kirihara :ultrosalina:
33. Rai :ultpiranha:

Players out earlier:

49. Rotsuko :ultyoshi:
49. Masashi :ultlucina::ultcloud:
49. Paseriman :ultdiddy:
49. OCEAN :ultrob:
49. takera :ultken:
49. Akasa :ultjoker:
65. Eim :ultjoker:
65. Arika :ultjigglypuff::ultwiifittrainer:
65. Suinoko :ultpeach:
65. Brood :ultbanjokazooie:
65. Lunamado :ultbowser:
65. Logix :ultike:
65. Rain :ultjoker:
97. DoubleA :ultshulk:
97. Somo :ultrob:

Dear lord, this list is long

There was five:ultzss:s in the Top 32. FIVE.
 
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Speaking of characters considered forever mid-tier. Remeber when everyone was saying at the beginning of Ultimate that ZSS was just going to be merley mid-tier just because she no longer that her death ladder combos.

How things have changed now that ZSS has now having better resutls than in the later end of Smash 4's competiive life.

Guess losing losing those the ladder combos was more thsn a fiar trade for several other improvements and being one of the characters that benefits the most from Ultimates changes.

Plus ZSS still has insane kill options and confrims. Flip-Jump basically needs no explination at this point. Boost-Kick is a frame 4 Oos tool that also kills , and still had tons of kill-comfirms.
Nair into Flip-kick spike, dsmash or zair into Boost-Kick etc.
 
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Impax

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Always find it strange how these Japanese tournaments are ranked. It was only given a mid level a ranking (I'm assuming due to lack of pgr ranked players). But yet it was a 700+ attended tournament won by someone that isnt pgr Ranked. While the pgr Ranked players are often ranked much lower

Japan's players skill wise seem pretty comparable to north Americas imho
 
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The_Bookworm

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I think in a brief interview Thunder Gaming had with Japan's players where they asked them who they think the best character in the game is, a pretty good chunk said :ultzss:. Given the monopolization ZSS currently has in Japan, it's not really hard to see why.

Umebura SP6 results:

1. Kuro :ultzss:
2. Kameme :ultmegaman::ultwario:
3. Umeki :ultdaisy:
4. KEN :ultsonic:
5. ProtoBanham :ultlucina::ultinkling:
5. Lea :ultgreninja:
7. Nietono :ultpichu:
7. Ron :ultyoshi:
9. Somé :ultgreninja:
9. kept :ultvillager:
9. Munekin :ultryu::ultken:
9. Atelier :ultpokemontrainerf:
13. T :ultlink:
13. Etsuji :ultlucina::ultpalutena:
13. HIKARU :ultpokemontrainer::ultbanjokazooie:
13. Raito :ultduckhunt::ultbanjokazooie:
17. Tsu :ultlucario::ulthero:
17. Choco :ultzss:
17. Jagaimo :ultpalutena:
17. Abadango :ultwario::ultmetaknight::ultpalutena:
17. Gackt :ultness:
17. Mossan :ultpichu::ultjoker:
17. Es :ultzss:
17. Higusaki :ultwolf:
25. ZAKI :ultkingdedede:
25. AIR :ultfalcon:
25. FSann :ultness:
25. shky :ultzss:
25. Yaminabe :ultlittlemac:
25. Hikari :ultshulk::ultwolf:
25. Purueight :ultrob:
25. Yamanyon :ultzss:
33. YOC :ultjoker::ultcloud:
33. Tarakotori :ultlittlemac:
33. huto :ultwario:
33. Twinkle :ultdiddy:
33. Shuton :ultolimar::ultrichter:
33. Maku :ultbanjokazooie:
33. Tofu :ultyoshi:
33. Kome :ultshulk:
33. Koriotsu :ultrobin:
33. Daiki :ulticeclimbers:
33. Tsumusuto :ultdoc:
33. takoman :ultjoker:
33. Ark :ultike:
33. Hiragi
33. Kirihara :ultrosalina:
33. Rai :ultpiranha:

Players out earlier:

49. Rotsuko :ultyoshi:
49. Masashi :ultcloud::ultlucina:
49. Paseriman :ultdiddy:
49. OCEAN :ultrob:
49. takera :ultken:
49. Akasa :ultjoker:
65. Eim :ultjoker:
65. Arika :ultjigglypuff:
65. Suinoko :ultpeach:
65. Brood :ultbanjokazooie:
65. Lunamado :ultpichu:
65. Logix :ultike:
65. Rain :ultjoker:
97. DoubleA :ultshulk:
97. Somo :ultrob:

Dear lord, this list is long

There was five:ultzss:s in the Top 32. FIVE.
Some corrections in terms of character uses that I found on the SmashWiki.

ProtoBanham and ZAKI apparently also used some :ultbanjokazooie: as well.
Lea apparently used some :ultchrom: as well (didn't even know he had one to begin with).
Kept used a little bit of :ultisabelle:.
HIKARU didn't use :ultpokemontrainer::ultbanjokazooie: combo, but instead a :ultpokemontrainer::ultluigi: combo.
Abadango's order of characters is :ultpalutena::ultmetaknight::ultwario:.
huto used :ultbanjokazooie: instead of :ultwario:.
Hikari used more :ultwolf: than :ultshulk:.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Some trends to notice:
:ultzss: The obvious is how popular ZSS is in Japan. We have Yamanyon and shky getting 25th, ES and Choco getting 17th, and Kuro winning the whole event. Many Japan players have always considered ZSS one of the best characters in the game since the beginning (even during the era where USA considered her a mid tier), and have recently considered her the best in the game. This tournament is sort of reflecting this viewpoint from Japan.
:ultsonic: KEN getting 4th in this tournament continues Sonic's streak of strong in-region results in Japan, adding on to the decently solid results overseas.
:ultryu::ultvillager::ultlink::ultlucario: Some lesser used characters overseas (at least at USA) still gets strong results in-region for Japan. This is a trend I don't really see change too much.
:ultbanjokazooie: What really surprised me (at least at first) is how popular Banjo is in Japan, especially on how seemingly little used Hero is in comparison. It is kind of ironic that Hero would be the more popular in lower level play at USA than anywhere in Japan, while a lot of players seemingly has a pocket Banjo in Japan.
However, that is when I realized that Banjo is a DLC zoner character. What does Japan players typically like? Zoning, or at least slower-paced gameplay. It is probably why Banjo is so appealing to Japan players than USA players, who typically like unga-bunga characters like Hero better than zoning-based characters. I wonder if the success Banjo is getting in Japan as a pocket character (or full-on main as some players like Brood and huto seemed to have fully transitioned to Banjo) will eventually translate into USA success.
:ultlittlemac: Japan really likes Little Mac apparently. After getting 13th at Umebura SP 4 and Sumabato SP 8, he gets 33rd at this tournament, while another Mac player called Yaminabe got 25th. Considering how much Brood's early success with Piranha Plant has influenced Japan tier lists' placement of PPlant back then, I wonder where Japan players view Little Mac in comparison to USA tier lists.
 
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:ultlittlemac: Has such a stigma that has carried over from Smash 4 that causes players to not take him seriously. His overall mix of speed and power and use on flat stages makes me think he is not the worst character in the game like he is written off as.
 
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:ultlittlemac: Has such a stigma that has carried over from Smash 4 that causes players to not take him seriously. His overall mix of speed and power and use on flat stages makes me think he is not the worst character in the game like he is written off as.

Little Mac "tier" is the most dependant on the legal stage selection out of any character in the game. On FD yeah he is going to be a signifigantly bigger threat. But then you have stages like Battlefield or T&C where characters can platfrom camp and Mac cant do much about it. Little Mac can be anywhere from bottom 5 to possibly almost reaching mid-tier depedning on stage picking/counterpicking.


Anyone recall that brief period in Smash 4 when Duck Hunt (The Stage) was legal in tounaments.little Mac was almost scrwed if he had to fight there
 
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SwagGuy99

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Messages
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:ultlittlemac: Has such a stigma that has carried over from Smash 4 that causes players to not take him seriously. His overall mix of speed and power and use on flat stages makes me think he is not the worst character in the game like he is written off as.
I'd argue that he's not too bad on Final Destination due to the lack of platforms and maybe Lylat due to the platforms being low enough for some of his attacks to reach and because all recoveries are screwy on that stage, not just his. On those two stages specifically, he probably isn't bottom 3 and maybe not even bottom 5.

Everywhere else, though, yeah, he's screwed.
 

AxelVDP

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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Little Mac "tier" is the most dependant on the legal stage selection out of any character in the game. On FD yeah he is going to be a signifigantly bigger threat. But then you have stages like Battlefield or T&C where characters can platfrom camp and Mac cant do much about it. Little Mac can be anywhere from bottom 5 to possibly almost reaching mid-tier depedning on stage picking/counterpicking.


Anyone recall that brief period in Smash 4 when Duck Hunt (The Stage) was legal in tounaments.little Mac was almost scrwed if he had to fight there
The notion that Mac struggles on platform stages is a meme, it was not true in smash4 and it's not true here.
Platforms are fine and actually, sometimes they are more beneficial to the Mac player (provide cover from aerial assaults (which means forcing the opponent to play your ground game!!!), help with mixing up your recovery/landings, give you access to some safe sharking from below, etc)
On certain matchups you get juggled for days if you play on FD like stages lol (in smash4 I often like BF more than FD, just saying.)

Mac's real problem is that there are way to many -bad- platform stages (smashville was probably his worst stage in smash4), as in, stages where you HAVE to expend your double jump to reach certain platforms and that you cannot threaten from below with usmash. You simply can't ban them all on most rulesets (which is what you said aswell).
Having to use your doublejump is EXTREMELY risky as a Mac player, one mistake and you're offstage with no double jump, and you can probaby guess what happens next.
Mac is a booty character only at very high levels of play (I used to argue he was mid tierish in smash4, but here he really is quite bad, and not only due to the stagelist tbh), at highish and lower skill levels he actually is useable (not saying he's good tho lol), his kit really thrives on matchup inexperience and unsafe neutral play and subpar edgeguarding (which is why you can sometimes see Mac players placing not terribly in brackets such as his top16 placement at a previous umebura iirc)
 
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:ultlittlemac: Has such a stigma that has carried over from Smash 4 that causes players to not take him seriously. His overall mix of speed and power and use on flat stages makes me think he is not the worst character in the game like he is written off as.
Mac arguably was better in 4 than he is now. He isn’t taken seriously for a reason. Despite the fact you can very much get results with him if you apply yourself enough and are talented enough which is something that happens in any game even with characters that are bad. (Melee Kirby doesn’t even function right and he’s gotten the odd good placement here and there).


I think we’ve seen now especially in Ultimate that any character has the ability to place well. Which means we should look towards consistency over time, much like our stats resources use.
 
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Tbh. I think one reason why most people think that Mac is a joke character is mostly because Zero has published multiple videos where he mocks Mac to an extend where it became tedious (imo). And ZeRo has probably still the largest influence amongst all the people in the community.

Not saying that Mac is great and all, however I feel like the perception is a lot worse than it should be. It can't be a coincidence or match-up inexperience when Mac has achieved fairly good results.
Still not a great character, but far away from the worst character (hello, Isabelle).
 

Megamang

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While zero has a large following, him not competing in ult and the influx of not smash 4 players / new players makes me think he isn't the biggest arbiter of who is mocked.

I mean... mac doesn't have an air game. In a game where landing aerials have gotten nothing but buffs, and are safe neutral tools which confirm into strong advantage... having no aerials is kinda booty. Sometimes it is that simple. Not to mention these good aerials are amazing at stuffing mac, juggling him, etc. He is swingy and can win most games, but consistency through a tournament isn't that likely when your ace card is a meter you can lose and every opponent has the 'gimp you' card.

Also, losing perfect pivoting sucks for mac. A good mac player in 4 could truly have a superior ground game, but with everyone getting mobility buffs he doesn't stand out as much.
 

|RK|

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Mac has very solid tools and better MUs than people expect. Particularly a solid MU vs Palutena.

If you bring your opponents to the right stage, he can be particularly devastating. And his recovery isn't the worst in the game, IMO (that's DEFINITELY Doc).
 
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When you play Mac you are making an explicit statement to the opponent: "I am going to *react* to whatever you're going to do and eat you alive."

He is the epitome of the perfect reflexes, playing by heart, reactive opponent. I really respect Mac players because there is no neutral, no real setups, you have to think on your toes and wing it (and pray).

Similar to Ganon players, whome I also respect, make the statement: "You have a pattern, I'm going to read it a handful of times and eat you alive." The epitome of raw reads and playing the opponent.

What people don't often discuss though is the importance of the input buffer. The input buffer in Ultimate is the longest it's ever been at 6 to 7 frames. The automatically hobbles the reactive players and enhances the reads based players (less time to course correct).

So it's natural that Mac is consistently seen as an awful character and Ganon is consistently not pure trash on tier lists. Long input buffer.
 
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Japan definetly seemed ahead of the curve when it Came to ZSS in Ultimate. Pre-Marss's success with ZSS most people here were dooming her as a mid-tier v. Many of Japan's pro-players were putting her as the #1 character in the game. Now ZSS is seeing lots of success outside Marss with ZSS a sizable major in Japan. Then again she was always getting solid results there. Getting good placings in notable touraments regularly

I dont think she is the #1 character. But I am finding it hars to argue she is not at least top 5 now.
 
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:ultzss: Is a secondary of mine. I’m afraid my talent level is not high enough to maximize her potential, but she really does have so many options and the all time great escape move in down special giving the rare ability to reset to neutral whenever she feels like it
 

The_Bookworm

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OrionStats got updated rather quickly: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

:ultsnake: has overtaken :ultpokemontrainer: as the #3 character in the stats.
:ultbanjokazooie: has noticeably risen to 47th, which is notably contributed to Umebura SP 6 with a lot of players using them as pocket character.
:ultridley: Nair^ performance at the Mexican Gaming Championship is very impressive, which is reflected in Ridley's rise to 48th.
:ultdk: Not entirely sure how, but DK has been notably risen to 52nd. This big monkey still has some juice left in the tank.
:ultzelda::ultbayonetta: These two notably fallen off lately, the former mostly due to the inactivity of her top players, the latter due to her mains getting pretty stagnate results. Zelda is at 54th and Bayo is at 57th.


Other than that, nothing really too big happened in the stats.
 

boysilver400

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I've thought that :ultzss: was top 5 for a while now. The current #3 player in the world uses her, good speed, a get out of disadvantage free card that can also edgeguard, be used for recovery, and spike(seriously, this move needs to be toned down imo. Characters like :ultkirby: and probably :ultlittlemac: have like a 20:80 matchup against this one move.)

Serious question, what weaknesses does she have exactly other than that "ZSS sux" meme?
 

The_Bookworm

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Serious question, what weaknesses does she have exactly other than that "ZSS sux" meme?
Her main weaknesses of ZSS is having some short (and a few awkward) hitboxes and having some inconsistent KO potential. Being in the lighter side of the roster isn't the best thing to have either.

However, it is very much overshadowed by her plethora of strengths.
 
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Megamang

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A narrow but tall hitbox can be annoying for her as well. And the tether grab is great in certain situations, and 'slow OOS' isn't really a downside of it when she has the f4 kill move... but that is a commitment and if you whif on an ambiguous shield pressure situation its gonna hurt.

That said, the fact boost kick links properly now is alone huge for her. getting a confirm off of a tether poke for it is another massive buff. Again bair is a kill move that doesn't really need confirms, its just the right combination of fast and powerful + her mobility makes it insane.

Disjoints can be annoying vs her but are in no way crippling.
 

SwagGuy99

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OrionStats got updated rather quickly: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

:ultsnake: has overtaken :ultpokemontrainer: as the #3 character in the stats.
:ultbanjokazooie: has noticeably risen to 47th, which is notably contributed to Umebura SP 6 with a lot of players using them as pocket character.
:ultridley: Nair^ performance at the Mexican Gaming Championship is very impressive, which is reflected in Ridley's rise to 48th.
:ultdk: Not entirely sure how, but DK has been notably risen to 52nd. This big monkey still has some juice left in the tank.
:ultzelda::ultbayonetta: These two notably fallen off lately, the former mostly due to the inactivity of her top players, the latter due to her mains getting pretty stagnate results. Zelda is at 54th and Bayo is at 57th.


Other than that, nothing really too big happened in the stats.
Also, :ultcorrin: is at the bottom and :ultmewtwo: dropped to be right next to him again, not Puff. We've had the same bottom two characters for a very long time with :ultjigglypuff: occasionally switching out for Mewtwo.
 

Impax

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Japan definetly seemed ahead of the curve when it Came to ZSS in Ultimate. Pre-Marss's success with ZSS most people here were dooming her as a mid-tier v. Many of Japan's pro-players were putting her as the #1 character in the game. Now ZSS is seeing lots of success outside Marss with ZSS a sizable major in Japan. Then again she was always getting solid results there. Getting good placings in notable touraments regularly

I dont think she is the #1 character. But I am finding it hars to argue she is not at least top 5 now.
Theres also King Chris. And Europe has Quik and Sirjon. Her results have really been pretty good across the board. Japan was just at the forefront of this, as you said
 

NotLiquid

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OrionStats got updated rather quickly: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

:ultsnake: has overtaken :ultpokemontrainer: as the #3 character in the stats.
:ultbanjokazooie: has noticeably risen to 47th, which is notably contributed to Umebura SP 6 with a lot of players using them as pocket character.
:ultridley: Nair^ performance at the Mexican Gaming Championship is very impressive, which is reflected in Ridley's rise to 48th.
:ultdk: Not entirely sure how, but DK has been notably risen to 52nd. This big monkey still has some juice left in the tank.
:ultzelda::ultbayonetta: These two notably fallen off lately, the former mostly due to the inactivity of her top players, the latter due to her mains getting pretty stagnate results. Zelda is at 54th and Bayo is at 57th.


Other than that, nothing really too big happened in the stats.
On a week-to-week basis, :ultinkling: Remains at #14th but has now untied with Lucina and pushed ahead of her and Mega Man. The latter is going to see a big boost off of Kameme's Umebura SP6 performance but likely not enough to make up the deficit, especially if Space performs well this weekend at Syndicate. :ultpalutena: Is also less than one point value behind Pokémon Trainer and has a good chance of overtaking him by the end of this week if we're merely going by both characters' presence at Umebura SP6.
 
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The notion that Mac struggles on platform stages is a meme, it was not true in smash4 and it's not true here.
Platforms are fine and actually, sometimes they are more beneficial to the Mac player (provide cover from aerial assaults (which means forcing the opponent to play your ground game!!!),

Mac's real problem is that there are way to many -bad- platform stages (smashville was probably his worst stage in smash4), as in, stages where you HAVE to expend your double jump to reach certain platforms and that you cannot threaten from below with usmash. You simply can't ban them all on most rulesets (which is what you said aswell).
Having to use your double jump is EXTREMELY risky as a Mac player, one mistake and you're offstage with no double jump, and you can probably guess what happens next.
Mac is a booty character only at very high levels of play
unless i am missing something how do these statements not contradict each other? is someone is jumping at mac they are either losing or not playing the matchup correctly. When either situation is assumed it doesnt make a character underrated or good.

for most good characters using a double jump is not an extreme risk. mac is so ground dependent that in a platform fighter he cannot jump. thats a very very huge impediment on a character outside of a traditional fighter. the fact it is safer to jump in samurai showdown than mac in smash is very telling.

can mac reach platforms in this game at smashville, ps, or bf. i know he can't reach the other pokemon stages platforms.
at low levels all kinds of characters can win doesn't mean they are actually good characters. mac is not very good.he's down there with other bad flawed characters like bayo, puff, K rool, and others.
 
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