Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lacrimosa]

Where does Leo even have success with Marth?
UFA?
Note that Leo went Marth in the first set of GF and was put down by Gluto with a 3-0. Leo then went Joker is the reset and 3-0'd Gluto.
He went Joker, not Marth, against Space at the same tournament.

At the pre-weekly (which Leo won), the image was nearly identical: MKLeo did great with Lucina but not so much with Marth.
Marth's really bad. The sourspot does nothing for him and he's completely out-performed by Lucina in every way.


Roy's sour-spot works for combo-extensions and other jank. He makes much better work of his sourspot (and is imo still better than Chrom, but yeah).

 

[KirbySquad101]

With the way ESAM was describing , you'd think he would've been merited at least a 7 under his list. That said, there isn't actually that many problems I see with his list.

On the subject of the yellow sphere of death, I feel like is in a similar position to : I definitely think Pac-Man's a high tier, but Tea is also an incredibly nutty player on his own, and people still let Pac-Man get away with a ton of shenanigans that he probably shouldn't be getting away with.

Similarily to the Tweet Tim posted last page about some important stuff to learn against Mr. Game and Watch's bag of tricks (particularly FAir's fake shield pressure), the same person responsible for that tweet made a few anti-Pac-Man techs and bits:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Biggest glaring habits I've seen players exercise against Tea are the "attack the hydrant with an unsafe move" (Reference: Maister's set against Tea at Mainstage) and the "try to pressure Pac-Man at the ledge while he's holding the Galaxian" (Reference: Salem's and Marss' sets against Tea at Thunder Smash). As much as I root for players like Tea and Maister, players that jump in front of them at the ledge in the hopes of getting some read are pretty much begging to get NAir'd/Galaxain'd into a +40% combo.

I'm pretty sure the reason why people haven't been able to pick up on these things is because it was easier to get away with messing up against Pac-Man back in SSB4. That was back when Pac-Man's UThrow/FAir couldn't combo very well and his was Grab was the biggest pile of dung in the entire planet. After every improvement he's gotten to his CQC though, it's not surprising to see Tea getting a +30% combo/stage control everytime he hard baits a player or catches them practicing terrible habits against Pac-Man in general. It's still possible for Pac-Man to get his jank rolling, but with the way some people handle the match-up, it makes it very easy for Tea to start snowballing a lead very quickly, much like how LeoN or Maister start effortlessly shaving off stocks from the opponent while they're still clinging on to 3.

I don't think Tea will fall off because of this, nor do I think won't be high tier anymore, but the cluelessness of top level players does overinflate how easy it is for him to rack up damage or just how much pressure he can apply against the opponent effortlessly with things like Bonus Fruit or Hydrants.

 

[Aaron1997]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

More Anti-pac stuff. I know he's my character but I believe teaching people how to beat you will only make you a better in the long run

 

[VodkaHaze]

Having one shared move isn't going to ruin any character, much less a move that's actually a viable frame 1 escape option. Plenty of indisputably good characters have worse moves then Pokemon Switch - Palutena and Lucina have counter, Pikachu has skull bash, ect. But it's not about what tools a character doesn't have, it's about if the tools a character does have work.

If any pokemon is sub par on its own, that's due to other reasons. Squirtle lacks range and kill power, Ivysaur lacks mobility and reliable CQC, and Charizard has poor frame data and a huge hurtbox. But they cover eachother's weaknesses well and I'm still confident Pokemon Trainer as a whole is a strong and flexible character that can adapt to nearly every situation.

This is why I think should always be ranked as one character, rather than three or four. I've frequently seen PT have an amazing recovery with , where even if you miss Vine Whip, if you switch into , you gain an extra jump and you can use Fly. Stuff like that couldn't happen if you're solo-maining the characters. Doesn't mean we can't talk about how each Pokemon fairs against different characters in order to understand match-ups or properties, but I do think that even if all three Pokemon are bad on their own - which they aren't - then they are beastly when fighting as a team.

 

[KirbySquad101]

In other news, seedings have been announced for Nightmare on Smashville; the top 10 is looking like a nightmare to contest (pardon the pun):

1. Maister
2. Salem ()
3. LeoN
4. Cosmos
5. Pandarian ()
6. Nicko
7. Jakal ()
8. Rivers ()
9. Larry Lurr
10. Lui$
11. BestNess
12. Prodigy
13. MastaMario
14. Cyro
15. Jayy
16. Razo
17. Charliedaking
18. Eon
19. Sparg0 *
20. Benny&theJets
21. Vintendo
22. Stocktaker ()
23. Heavy
24. AC
25. varun
26. Hawk
27. Lumbre
28. King Koopa
29. Zan ()
30. adom
31. Rickles
32. Nito
33. Snoop
34. K9sbruce ()
35. OverLade
36. BONK! (?)
37. Tarternator
38. Destany
39. KiraFlax ()
40. HLB
41. RockstarAce
42. Ben Gold **
43. Leo D. Haki
44. Ki
45. Ketchup
46. ShiNe
47. Von
48. WhiteFang
49. AT LOWES
50. Rex

*Sparg0 confirmed a while ago that he now co-mains Cloud and Inkling
**Ben Gold mentioned on his Twitter that he'll be going only Bowser from now on while he's still in the US.

Larry Lurr seems a little overseeded (above Lui$ and Prodigy?), but outside of that, the list looks fairly solid overall. This will also be the first regional Sparg0 attends following his break, so we'll see how his Inkling stacks up (as well as his Cloud).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

In other news, seedings have been announced for Nightmare on Smashville; the top 10 is looking like a nightmare to contest (pardon the pun):

1. Maister
2. Salem ()
3. LeoN
4. Cosmos
5. Pandarian ()
6. Nicko
7. Jakal ()
8. Rivers ()
9. Larry Lurr
10. Lui$
11. BestNess
12. Prodigy
13. MastaMario
14. Cyro
15. Jayy
16. Razo
17. Charliedaking
18. Eon
19. Sparg0 *
20. Benny&theJets
21. Vintendo
22. Stocktaker ()
23. Heavy
24. AC
25. varun
26. Hawk
27. Lumbre
28. King Koopa
29. Zan ()
30. adom
31. Rickles
32. Nito
33. Snoop
34. K9sbruce ()
35. OverLade
36. BONK! (?)
37. Tarternator
38. Destany
39. KiraFlax ()
40. HLB
41. RockstarAce
42. Ben Gold **
43. Leo D. Haki
44. Ki
45. Ketchup
46. ShiNe
47. Von
48. WhiteFang
49. AT LOWES
50. Rex

*Sparg0 confirmed a while ago that he now co-mains Cloud and Inkling
**Ben Gold mentioned on his Twitter that he'll be going only Bowser from now on while he's still in the US.

Larry Lurr seems a little overseeded (above Lui$ and Prodigy?), but outside of that, the list looks fairly solid overall. This will also be the first regional Sparg0 attends following his break, so we'll see how his Inkling stacks up (as well as his Cloud).

This winner of this tournment will get the very last spot at Smash Summit right? Its gonna be feirce fight for sure

 

[Arthur97]

Once again, no Lucina. Has there ever been another fighter considered as good as her that so few people wanted to play?

 

[$.A.F.]

Once again, no Lucina. Has there ever been another fighter considered as good as her that so few people wanted to play?

Brawlimar maybe?

 

[VodkaHaze]

Once again, no Lucina. Has there ever been another fighter considered as good as her that so few people wanted to play?

Yes, Marth . I've seen a few tier lists where they put him at high tier, and then you see that he has one of the worst tournament representation in terms of numbers because most people will play Lucina instead.

 

[blackghost]

Once again, no Lucina. Has there ever been another fighter considered as good as her that so few people wanted to play?

Rosalina in smash 4, maybe olimar in general across three games now.

 

[Arthur97]

Yes, Marth . I've seen a few tier lists where they put him at high tier, and then you see that he has one of the worst tournament representation in terms of numbers because most people will play Lucina instead.

I said as good. It'll take a little more than than a few hopeful tier list placements to make him equal to her. As it stands he's widely considered just plain worse so then he can't be as good.

Now, if you're talking other games, that would work if he were still that low on representation.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The "big" event for the weekend is EGLX 2019.
It is merely a B tier event that is a regional. It is a much bigger Melee event instead, despite having less entrants.


Here are the notable players that I found that is attending (mostly notable Canadian players):
ESAM
Mr E
Blacktwins
Venom
Fwed
Jw
Xcal
Riddles
BreaD
Smokk
tamim
Stas
Mew2King
Pokecheese

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Rosalina in smash 4, maybe olimar in general across three games now.

Post-patched Smash 4 Sheik. After that th nerfs only real top-level rep was Void and Mr.R. With her 50/50 kill setups off d-throw removed and some other notable things slightly toned sown she suddenly took a lot of skill and effort to play her at top-levels of play

 

[Rizen]

Once again, no Lucina. Has there ever been another fighter considered as good as her that so few people wanted to play?

. 's 14th on Orion stats; it's not like she's that uncommon.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Once again, no Lucina. Has there ever been another fighter considered as good as her that so few people wanted to play?

has entered the chat.

Joking aside, does churn out the dough, but her most notable peaks and results are dependent largely on ProtoBanham and Mr E, the latter of which has been much more inconsistent compared to his Season 1 run, and the former of which who was largely inactive during most of August and September due to health issues (hope he's doing well right now).

That said, Etsuji has been on quite the rise with the character, performing well at both Umebura SP5 and EGS Cup 2, so we definitely can't count him out.

 

[Anomika]

We don't count Etsuji out, but it seems they're using Palutena more often recently, so we might see less their Lucina in tournaments. But don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind seeing either of them, I'm sure they can make them interesting to watch.

 

[Aaron1997]

One more thing I'll mention. Sonic, Falcon and Speed Shulk can run past hydrant without the use of a trick that I will talk about below.

If your character has a initial dash or run speed of 1.9 or more then you can use that trick in the video. You run though the hydrant when the water shoots out. The best way to use this is time your Initial dash with the water since just running into the hydrant like Kirby was in the video is inconsistent. Its also better to do the trick with your initial dash because the Pac will know what your trying to do while doing it the reliable way the Pac will have a harder time reacting to you. Be aware that there is some character's like Banjo that have slow initial dash and have to use the unreliable way.

https://ultimateframedata.com/stats.php

Here you can find your character to see if they can do this.

 

[$.A.F.]

Lucina was pretty dominant in season 1. But as we have pointed out her usage has just kind of fizzled. While at top level play, proto has replaced the Leo shaped void at top level, she has overall fallen of quite a bit. It isn't a viability issue. Lucina is likely top 10 and probably top 5 IMO. Her only reason for a drop off is one that is very subjective in nature: She's boring as all hell to play to a lot of people. She doesn't really have anything that makes her unique. She's pure fundamentals for better or worse and doesn't really have any jank whatsoever to really set her apart. There is no Ike/Palutena nair. No Wolf Down Smash. Pichu Combo Game. Plant ptooie. Ganondorf Doriyah. It's just kind of a Corrin situation but obviously to a much lesser extent. The majority of people in the early meta game only really mained or secondaried her because she's both good and relatively easy, not because she was the character that was the most fun to them. And while there are a few loyalists such as Mr. E and Proto Banham propping her results up, a good amount of her players fell out of love due to lack of interest. Now this isn't to say that Lucina is by definition boring. I definitely can see why some would find playing her really fun. But it seems for a lot of people, she just isn't as interesting. Just my take.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, I know the reason, but seeing as competitive viability is about the only thing she has in Smash (because attention to detail certainly isn't something she has much of), I still don't like seeing her cast aside because of "boringness." It is kind of sad to be considered really good, but not get the proper attention due to being "boring," but, oh well, nothing I can really do about it. Much like how I can't help a lot of pros ignoring Male Robin's existence.

However, that said, I thought Wolf was supposedly falling into that category, but he still seems to have much more of a healthy player base. Why is that?

 

[$.A.F.]

Yeah, I know the reason, but seeing as competitive viability is about the only thing she has in Smash (because attention to detail certainly isn't something she has much of), I still don't like seeing her cast aside because of "boringness." It is kind of sad to be considered really good, but not get the proper attention due to being "boring," but, oh well, nothing I can really do about it. Much like how I can't help a lot of pros ignoring Male Robin's existence.

However, that said, I thought Wolf was supposedly falling into that category, but he still seems to have much more of a healthy player base. Why is that?

Because has quite a bit of (subjective) interesting stuff that makes him fun to play. His down smash kills at 60%. His fair-Bair does as well. That is definitely something that’s fun for a lot of players. doesn’t have that. He has a crazy combo game that still has a lot of room for optimizing. That is definitely something huge over he has over her. A lot of Wolf combos are hella clean and very rewarding to hit for a large amount of the playerbase like (https://twitter.com/fals1fy/status/1146526029944643584?s=20 , https://twitter.com/nnariSSB/status/1184897641286635522?s=20
https://twitter.com/SBKSSB/status/1181624528709009408?s=20)

the above examples. Lucina doesn’t have stuff like that. Her combos are mostly 2 pieces and a juggle.

 

[Idon]

Yeah, I know the reason, but seeing as competitive viability is about the only thing she has in Smash (because attention to detail certainly isn't something she has much of), I still don't like seeing her cast aside because of "boringness." It is kind of sad to be considered really good, but not get the proper attention due to being "boring," but, oh well, nothing I can really do about it. Much like how I can't help a lot of pros ignoring Male Robin's existence.

However, that said, I thought Wolf was supposedly falling into that category, but he still seems to have much more of a healthy player base. Why is that?

Wolf is far more entertaining to play and watch and has a lot of room for expression with how flexible his kit is. I've seen players play hyperaggresive Wolf, defensive campy Wolf, and everything inbetween. For Lucina, there's not a lot of room to do what you exactly want to do, just optimize what is clearly the "intended" playstyle.

 

[Arthur97]

Ugh, I actually miss his Brawl b-air. I actually don't care for b-air's that take so long to come out.

So, all the talk of Wolf being simple was just nonsense then? Guess I shouldn't be too surprised.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, Wolf is pretty neat, and anyone saying Wolf is basic or boring is just wrong. Ditto for Palutena.

That said, I wouldn't put either in my "top 10 most interesting characters", but so what? They both seem fine, if a little strong. (As their noteworthy popularity suggests)

The real question is "How are people still talking about PT Pokemon as individual characters in Oct 2019?"

 

[blackghost]

to switch topics a little did people see this video

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I mean, Wolf is pretty neat, and anyone saying Wolf is basic or boring is just wrong. Ditto for Palutena.

That said, I wouldn't put either in my "top 10 most interesting characters", but so what? They both seem fine, if a little strong. (As their noteworthy popularity suggests)

The real question is "How are people still talking about PT Pokemon as individual characters in Oct 2019?"

Maybe because people don't like using PT's pokemon as a group because due to how different each character is unless you're good at using multiple characters (note how most pros only use one or two mains with a pocket or secondary) you're just going to want to use one character out of the set.
Most players ignore pokemon trainer for this reason. It's just too much of a headache to wrap your head around three character's different stats, abilities and specials.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't think you can say they are ignored. They're still used a lot even if not always very well.

That said, for the more casual audience, I think an option to have them not switch upon getting KOed would be nice.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Once again, no Lucina. Has there ever been another fighter considered as good as her that so few people wanted to play?

Inkling? They aren't exactly popular. Diddy in Smash 4 after Hoo Hah nerfs as well. Ice Climbers in Brawl. Jigglypuff in Melee to some extent.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Meanwhile, at the Mexican Gaming Championship, Mexico players is proving to be more than a threat yet again, even without MKLeo or Maister.

NAir^ 3-2s DW and Chag 3-2s MVD respectively to send each to Loser's.

 

[Megamang]

Pokémon trainer is actually the least ignored of the entire cast, last I saw usage numbers.


That said, most players do lean into one or two pokemon. But the automatic switch is nice for the base, having to use a character some builds you as a player. You may not like Squirtle, but if your Charizard takes the L the stock before and you land and want to make the most of your invincibility, its time to pressure with the water turtle.

That said, this situation arises without the stock loss as well. Since they have access to a f1 invulnerable switch, you must be pretty proficient with each character to get good usage out of it. Much like Rebel Guard, if you get explicitly called out for the swap you will get hit hard so you have to mix it up a lot.

 

[NotLiquid]

Incidentally, with the recent upsurge in performance, Inkling tied Lucina for #14th on Orion Stats as of the recent update. With other nationals this week including performances from Chag and S, she's making her way back up in the world.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Incidentally, with the recent upsurge in performance, Inkling tied Lucina for #14th on Orion Stats as of the recent update. With other nationals this week including performances from Chag and S, she's making her way back up in the world.

With S you mean Space? Just asking, so I don't misunderstand.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Inkling? They aren't exactly popular.

Fun fact: Inkling might very well be the most popular tournament character in Sweden (from people who don't go 0-2, anyway). There seem to be some notable Inkling players in Europe, like Armada and Space. I think the character is one of the best but right now we don't really see any overcentralized character, although more and more top players seem to switch to Joker, which indicates that he might be commonly perceived as the best.

 

[The_Bookworm]

EGLX 2019

1st: ESAM
2nd: Blacktwins
3rd: Riddles
4th: iModerz
5th: DoctorKayh
5th: Landon
7th: Smokk
7th: Xcal
9th: M9
9th: Mew2King
9th: Venom
9th: Xyro


Relatively minor tournament in the grand scheme of things. In case any of you are wondering, ESAM used ICs prior to top 48 mainly to fool around with them.

 

[KirbySquad101]

It's a B Tier event, so that's some really good credit both ESAM and for that matter, even if it's not as much as an A Tier or S Tier.

In other news, Maister is currently sitting in Winner's Finals of Nightmare on Smashville after facing off against Salem's (bizarrely enough) and ; he is set to play against the winner of Cosmos and LeoN . Looking forward to seeing how Cosmos fares in the rematch.

EDIT: There are also players who are on a roll in Loser's Bracket, particularly Rex and AlexDisc .

 

[NotLiquid]

Cosmos 3 - 0 LeoN

So hey

Time to re-evaluate that MU

 

[|RK|]

Cosmos 3 - 0 LeoN

So hey

Time to re-evaluate that MU

Wow

So *now* it's time to reevaluate it after one set

thinkingface.jpg

 

[NotLiquid]

Wow

So *now* it's time to reevaluate it after one set

thinkingface.jpg

I never particularly believed that their first encounter was indicative of how the MU plays out. Though I guess if you want to hold the sets to the same level of public scrutiny then my joke sort of applies yeah; given a lot of people were eager to jump to conclusions about it based on their previous encounter in bracket, despite Leon never buying that it's a good MU (supposedly he has dropped several sets against another local Inkling player; Chrismus).

 

[|RK|]

I never particularly believed that their first encounter was indicative of how the MU plays out. Though I guess if you want to hold the sets to the same level of public scrutiny then my joke sort of applies yeah; given a lot of people were eager to jump to conclusions about it based on their previous encounter in bracket, despite Leon never buying that it's a good MU

The point was that I know that you believed the MU was different. But after all the hand wringing about how Bowser is this or that, it really feels like the discussion is just based on confirmation bias.

If Cosmos lost again, it would be him playing the MU badly still. If he wins, now this is proof!

 

[NotLiquid]

The point was that I know that you believed the MU was different. But after all the hand wringing about how Bowser is this or that, it really feels like the discussion is just based on confirmation bias.

If Cosmos lost again, it would be him playing the MU badly still. If he wins, now this is proof!

I think you're making a pretty baseless assumption about my personage that isn't there, chief.

If Cosmos got stomped despite having 6 months opportunity to learn the MU, then I'd very well admit that the MU is a problem.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Nightmare on Smashville Top 4

Winner's Side:

Maister vs Cosmos

Loser's Side:

LeoN vs Salem