Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[VodkaHaze]

From what I have seen of , he seems somewhat underrated. Not great, but certainly not worst in the game. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he has better tournament viability and results than characters commonly ranked above him.

 

[1FC0]

Nah, parrying is a great design choice. If you powershielded early you still got a shield, which was a big reason that shields were so good in ultimate. On the other hand, time a parry early and you get hit in the face. As it should be, you are basically calling out to say 'I know exactly when this will hit' so it needs to have some risk.

But if you time a parry late then you still get a shield, while if you time a power shield late then you get hit.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Parrying is so different character to character and almost noone gets enough reward off of it due to the FAF of the parry taking way too long. At best you reset the neutral and save your shield, maybe if your character has good frame data or reach they'll get an attack in.
Time the parry wrong or use it on an attack with lingering hurtboxes? You get hit and might even lose a stock depending on your damage. Parry is too high of a risk with not even remotely enough reward for capitalizing.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Parrying is so different character to character and almost noone gets enough reward off of it due to the FAF of the parry taking way too long. At best you reset the neutral and save your shield, maybe if your character has good frame data or reach they'll get an attack in.
Time the parry wrong or use it on an attack with lingering hurtboxes? You get hit and might even lose a stock depending on your damage. Parry is too high of a risk with not even remotely enough reward for capitalizing.

I know some characters can really benfeift form getting a parry at the right time. I saw some examples of Marss parrying an air-attack into a boost-kick. Or a Wario user (I think Gluttony) into a full waft.

 

[Anomika]

I think the one who parries being in hitstun is honestly not the best design, even if it gives a 3 frame advantage (additional 11 frames theoretically if using moves other than up smash or up special), and only a few can even capitalize on it currently. This also means that there are multi-hit attacks that can't be retaliated with a parry, with a few exceptions (Mario with Super Jump Punch, for example, because it starts on frame 3, has intangibility on frame 3 and since parry gives 3 frames of advantage, it basically means a guaranteed punish on an unspaced aerial no matter what), this gives some fighters an advantage that even most fighters with great frame data can't punish it immediately. Now I DON'T say that ALL fighters should have an option to punish with an instantaneous option, but I think that each fighter should have an individual advantage depending on how fast their out of shield options are. I think Greninja is a decent candidate for this: it has overall good frame data but its OoS options are bad, and sometimes, sometimes the move that felt punishable after parry wasn't because his its grab came a bit too slow. A few frames earlier and it may have caught the attack.

(I know it's not the best example, but you get the point.)

I don't think the the biggest and smallest advantage should be large, but it could probably help somewhat and not feel "robbed" because they failed to punish it properly. Of course some aerials simply cannot be punished out of parry at max distance like Shulk's back aerial just before landing even with a few more frames of advantage added.

 

[Arthur97]

Best solution is to drop parrying altogether and bring back power shielding.

I mean, it still technically is a perfect shield. This parry stuff is a fan name.

 

[bc1910]

I think the one who parries being in hitstun is honestly not the best design, even if it gives a 3 frame advantage (additional 11 frames theoretically if using moves other than up smash or up special), and only a few can even capitalize on it currently. This also means that there are multi-hit attacks that can't be retaliated with a parry, with a few exceptions (Mario with Super Jump Punch, for example, because it starts on frame 3, has intangibility on frame 3 and since parry gives 3 frames of advantage, it basically means a guaranteed punish on an unspaced aerial no matter what), this gives some fighters an advantage that even most fighters with great frame data can't punish it immediately. Now I DON'T say that ALL fighters should have an option to punish with an instantaneous option, but I think that each fighter should have an individual advantage depending on how fast their out of shield options are. I think Greninja is a decent candidate for this: it has overall good frame data but its OoS options are bad, and sometimes, sometimes the move that felt punishable after parry wasn't because his its grab came a bit too slow. A few frames earlier and it may have caught the attack.

(I know it's not the best example, but you get the point.)

You alluded to this yourself so I’m not sure where the confusion is coming from, but parries allow you to avoid shield drop frames altogether. It doesn’t matter that Greninja’s oos options are poor since he won’t be shielding when he finishes the parry animation. He doesn’t need to grab.

Greninja is actually one of the characters that gets the most reward from parrying due to gaining immediate access to his excellent Dtilt and dash attack. These can hit parried opponents easily at close and mid range respectively. Both are very strong punish tools which are usually locked behind shield drop frames. Parry Dtilt in particular is one of the strongest punish tools in the game due to its speed, low hitbox (allowing it to avoid being messed up by “pancaking” or otherwise weird landing animations), kill confirming ability and even safety if you happen to miss.

Incidentally spotdodge cancelling is strong for many of the same characters that parrying is strong for. Greninja is once again no exception thanks largely to Dtilt.

 

[Megamang]

When Greninja gets a parry it is great. Its just... Usually i'd elect to use mobility and not even bother pulling up my shield. in fact, if I pull up my shield im probably going for a parry. or having a pikmin not latch onto me.

 

[Anomika]

Well, I did mention that the player has shield drop advantage added over 3 frames, and I did mention that I stated a bad example (should've mentioned that the opponent is way past dtilr > usmash%, it probably wouldn't convince anyone either way). I was also thinking about Captain Falcon , but it could also be a bad example. Either way, you probably know what I wanted to say.

In any case, if they reworked on the perfect shield a while back, they might do it again eventually.

Now that I'm looking at the updated UltimateFrameData.com, the hitboxes on several characters are quite... interesting. It seems that Luigi's Tornado has a windbox that lasts the entire duration of the attack, having generous range as well. More often than not I would try to punish the move way past the intangibility range and I would still get sucked in.

Palutena's hitboxes "blew me away", no wonder why she's a Goddess. Nuff said.

Mario's dash grab is actually decently disjointed, I didn't expect to see that. I wish more grabs were like his.

I remember the gif of Bowser pivot grabbing a Wii Fit Trainer from far away in Smash 4, but now the hitbox is correctly adjusted. It still has good range so not a big deal I guess?

There aren't a lot of fighters with hitbox animations on the website, but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more of them!

 

[bc1910]

When Greninja gets a parry it is great. Its just... Usually i'd elect to use mobility and not even bother pulling up my shield. in fact, if I pull up my shield im probably going for a parry. or having a pikmin not latch onto me.

You should learn to parry with Greninja. It’s the only thing that makes his shield even mildly threatening.

Watch Venia to see how he utilises parries alongside his usual movement strats. It will really take your Gren play to the next level.

 

[Anomika]

Is Shadow Parry technique still possible? It always intrigued me but I'm not sure if someone did it in competitive...

 

[SwagGuy99]

When Greninja gets a parry it is great. Its just... Usually i'd elect to use mobility and not even bother pulling up my shield. in fact, if I pull up my shield im probably going for a parry. or having a pikmin not latch onto me.

I feel like characters with fast options that are either combo starters or good at punishing generally benefit from parrying. and are two of the better examples I can think of. A lot of the cast doesn't have fast enough options to gain much off of a parry so characters who do kind of stand out.

Now that I'm looking at the updated UltimateFrameData.com, the hitboxes on several characters are quite... interesting. It seems that Luigi's Tornado has a windbox that lasts the entire duration of the attack, having generous range as well. More often than not I would try to punish the move way past the intangibility range and I would still get sucked in.

I feel like the move was changed that way so it was still useable as a move. Otherwise it would only be used as a kill confirm off of down throw but changing it like this gives the move a lot of other uses as well.

 

[DJ3DS]

I think one example of a character who stands to benefit from parry optimisation is . He currently struggles somewhat oos as his fastest options are item tossing, SH F-Air (a frame 7 aerial), and his U-Smash. With parrying he gets a f3 jab, f3 dtilt, f7 ftilt, f7 dsmash and generally gets options to deal with crossups he can't currently deal with unless he has gyro in hand.

 

[Firox]

Is Shadow Parry technique still possible? It always intrigued me but I'm not sure if someone did it in competitive...

The Shadow Parry looks sick on paper, but in my experience it's waaay too inconsistent to land on demand in a competitive setting. Isn't the trigger window absurdly tight? Like 1 or 2 frames?

 

[Anomika]

I'm sure that parrying multi hits other than the first one can be very difficult to parry with it, but do you also mean the first hit too? If so, well, TIL

 

[DungeonMaster]

Samus can parry -> f-smash any aerial in the game, it's a very important reflex to cultivate. You essentially can't play Ken without parrying. He gets full combo and kill confirms from it.

 

[Space thing]

The Shadow Parry looks sick on paper, but in my experience it's waaay too inconsistent to land on demand in a competitive setting. Isn't the trigger window absurdly tight? Like 1 or 2 frames?

Window is the same as regular parry, but you can start it for 4 earlier outside of shield because you don't have to even bother shielding in the first place (though if you mean getting a true frame 1 parry, than yeah that's like a 1 frame input, but it isn't that hard to press 2 buttons at the same time while holding forward tbh). For multi parries, the window depends on the move being parried, but some moves can't be repeatedly parried unless they are shadow parried, while any multi hit can be repeatedly shadow parried (except for maybe some projectiles, idk). This can be tricky but in practice it's just holding shield and mashing B, and if you miss time it you just shield the hit instead.

As for shadow parry's usefulness: It's pretty useful against a decent number of projectiles as it's basically like power shielding them was in previous games. The multi parry option is also a thing, but I don't think very many players are using it that much. Outside of that, there's some timing gaps where you wouldn't have enough time after the end lag of a move to parry the punish attempt from the opponent, but you can with shadow parry. However, the main drawback fo shadow parry is that if you don't get the parry you will do Shadow Sneak, which is slow and punishable. I do sometimes go for a Shadow Sneak oos in a few situations as a mediocre but sometimes useful option select. E.g., they're standing in front of me shielding just out of shield range. They have better options than me so they're more likely to move. Do Shadow Sneak and if they did a fast move, parry, if they did a slower move, the teleport might dodge it and I counter attack him. If they keep holding shield, well I'm getting punished lol. Point is, it's not the end all be all, but there are a lot of niche ways of using shadow parry to a frog's advantage that are hard to really quantafy.

 

[Megamang]

You should learn to parry with Greninja. It’s the only thing that makes his shield even mildly threatening.

Watch Venia to see how he utilises parries alongside his usual movement strats. It will really take your Gren play to the next level.

I do, i was saying that IF I shield im probably going for a parry, because non parry shield is meh compared to just being mobile.

Also, for everyone that hasn't seen, Parry Footstool is a solid option for much of the cast. You can bring your punishes to a pretty solid level off of parrying aerials, which is something you should be landing with some consistency IMO.

 

[The_Bookworm]

ESAM unleashed a brand new tier list.

Spoiler: Timestamps

4: 0:00
4.5: 2:40
5.5: 6:30
6: 12:13
6.5: 30:18
7: 45:59
7.5: 56:46
8: 1:07:56
8.5: 1:22:21
9: 1:32:06
9.5: 1:37:38
10: 1:48:25

Things to note:
1) He categorized his list through numbers instead of lettered tiers.
2) 8 and above is where he believes the high tiers begins.
3) There is a notable gap between the bottom 7 (4 and 4.5) because he thinks those 7 characters are truly the "bad" characters, and everyone else above is at least decent.
4) 10, the top 4 characters, is not ordered. He thinks these four are interchangeable.


10:
9.5:
9:
8.5:
8:
7.5:
7:
6.5:
6:
5.5:
*Gap*
4.5:
4:


Interesting list. The usual bunch controversial placements (Robin at bottom 5?), but #esamopionions exists for a reason.
I do like how he structured this list, except maybe for how many characters ranked at 6 for how short each tier category is.


For reference and comparisons sake, this is his previous tier list, released at patch 3.1.0 (before Hero and Banjo release):

Spoiler

Top:
High:
Middle:
Low-Mid:
Low:
Bottom:

Why do I feel like this tier list is going to be the talk of this thread for a week? XD

 

[Rizen]

#esamopionions

'nuff said.

Can we talk about ? I'm not sure if Tea's just super good or it's actually pac man. There's Sinji too but he's not pulling those kinds of results like 1st at thunder smash. ATM I have the pac down as a lower high tier.

 

[Idon]

ESAM unleashed a brand new tier list.

Spoiler: Timestamps

4: 0:00
4.5: 2:40
5.5: 6:30
6: 12:13
6.5: 30:18
7: 45:59
7.5: 56:46
8: 1:07:56
8.5: 1:22:21
9: 1:32:06
9.5: 1:37:38
10: 1:48:25

Things to note:
1) He categorized his list through numbers instead of lettered tiers.
2) 8 and above is where he believes the high tiers begins.
3) There is a notable gap between the bottom 7 (4 and 4.5) because he thinks those 7 characters are truly the "bad" characters, and everyone else above is at least decent.
4) 10, the top 4 characters, is not ordered. He thinks these four are interchangeable.


10:
9.5:
9:
8.5:
8:
7.5:
7:
6.5:
6:
5.5:
*Gap*
4.5:
4:


Interesting list. The usual bunch controversial placements (Robin at bottom 5?), but #esamopionions exists for a reason.
I do like how he structured this list, except maybe for how many characters ranked at 6 for how short each tier category is.


For reference and comparisons sake, this is his previous tier list, released at patch 3.1.0 (before Hero and Banjo release):

Spoiler

Top:
High:
Middle:
Low-Mid:
Low:
Bottom:

Why do I feel like this tier list is going to be the talk of this thread for a week? XD

Woof, Marth keeps falling and falling.
They really did him dirty this game, lol.

Hope MKLeo throwing with Marth in GF's means he's testing the waters for a potential resurgence of his Marth playing.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

ESAM unleashed a brand new tier list.

Spoiler: Timestamps

4: 0:00
4.5: 2:40
5.5: 6:30
6: 12:13
6.5: 30:18
7: 45:59
7.5: 56:46
8: 1:07:56
8.5: 1:22:21
9: 1:32:06
9.5: 1:37:38
10: 1:48:25

Things to note:
1) He categorized his list through numbers instead of lettered tiers.
2) 8 and above is where he believes the high tiers begins.
3) There is a notable gap between the bottom 7 (4 and 4.5) because he thinks those 7 characters are truly the "bad" characters, and everyone else above is at least decent.
4) 10, the top 4 characters, is not ordered. He thinks these four are interchangeable.


10:
9.5:
9:
8.5:
8:
7.5:
7:
6.5:
6:
5.5:
*Gap*
4.5:
4:


Interesting list. The usual bunch controversial placements (Robin at bottom 5?), but #esamopionions exists for a reason.
I do like how he structured this list, except maybe for how many characters ranked at 6 for how short each tier category is.


For reference and comparisons sake, this is his previous tier list, released at patch 3.1.0 (before Hero and Banjo release):

Spoiler

Top:
High:
Middle:
Low-Mid:
Low:
Bottom:

Why do I feel like this tier list is going to be the talk of this thread for a week? XD

This list..this list is actullay his least controroversail or #esamopinions meme he has done. The fact that is not #1 on his list is well, a surprise in itself. Considering ESAM won a sizable major not too long ago. I think this can count as restraint on his part.

 

[Minordeth]

I have no idea how the top 4 are interchangeable when the other 70+ characters somehow can be specifically placed.

Regardless, it’s more or less what we see with every other tier list now, with a game of musical chairs apparently deciding the order of a familiar 15-20 characters.

Some notes on ESAM’s:

- is fairly high. Probably the first list I’ve seen where he is placed a bit above . I’ll watch the whole vid for his reasoning in a bit, but given that whenever Sigma or Ri-ma show up TL also appears in a high placement, I’m not surprised.

- being above is interesting, and seems to reflect a sort of top player sentiment that Fox has a higher ceiling than his disjoint heavy counterpart. Idk if I really agree with it, but Wolf is something like the Cloud of Ultimate, so top rep needs to be both extremely skilled and inventive in order to mix things up in a widely known MU.

- being relatively low is weird to me. Falcos hate the MU, true, but I haven’t seen ESAM really play any of the top level birds since Larry, so whatevs. While ESAM praises his Utilt, and does accurately point out that Falco wants to mitigate grounded approaches with laser, he goes on to say that you can “walk and shield until you are in a burst option distance” because laser doesn’t do much damage.

Of course, it doesn’t really matter that Laser doesn’t do much damage, because, as he mentioned: “it’s annoying.” Laser is for conditioning. He should know this, given that Tjolt does paltry damage and is primarily to condition the opponent.

Falco would love the opponent to be close, because it let’s him grab - his other massive combo starter. Falco doesn’t really have a problem with opponents with faster aerials, because his aerials are all generally quite fast. Falco wants to play anti-zone or anti-approach, and jam those attempts.

He certainly doesn’t want to approach tho.

- His placement is wild. It’s probably the main #ESAMopinion of the list, and it’s just bizarrely, well, wrong.

He mentioned that Marth’s disadvantage isn’t that good, when it’s basically the same as , which, if he thinks hers is good, then...? EDIT: he doesn’t. Fair point.

EDIT 2: the critique that Lucina doesn’t have overwhelming pressure like the top-top tiers is due - in part - to her lack of combos. Coincidentally, guess which character addresses that?

He mentioned how matches can snowball on Marth, and how (to paraphrase) “you should have gotten a tipper kill at 80, and now they are 150, and nothing will kill except a tipper.” In addition, he brought up how there are no Dancing Blade set-ups beside one that he vaguely refers to as “very percent specific and difficult to get”.

All of this seems based off of Leo playing. Marth has numerous opportunities in a given game to get Dancing Blade, including off of tech chases of which he can set up extremely easily with essentially all his moves - starting at extremely low percent, off Nair 1, off sour spot Fair, and others that I’m sure I’m forgetting.

If Marth is having an issue getting a kill, Lucina would also have an issue. The difference is that Marth can kill much earlier. This idea that his sours can’t kill until some absurdly high percent is wild. Even more wild is that Marth can play defensively just as well as Lucina, with the potential for nabbing tippers while doing so.

I’ve personally come around on Marth, and at this point, saying he is some matter of magnitude worse than Lucina sounds incredibly misinformed to me.

He may be quite underused, and yes, he does require more of a time investment, but this narrative that he is actually bad or mediocre is hilariously false.

If anything, he is the Roy to Lucina’s Chrom.

EDIT 3: bumping out of top tier almost solely due to his lack of an OoS game when he glosses over distinct lack of OoS options is... interesting.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This list..this list is actullay his least controroversail or #esamopinions meme he has done. The fact that is not #1 on his list is well, a surprise in itself. Considering ESAM won a sizable major not too long ago. I think this can count as restraint on his part.

In the end part of his tier list where it is summary of his placements, he put Pika at the very top of 10 tier, even though he is first character he covered in the 10 tier.

He did mentioned that the top 4 is interchangeable and no definite order, so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I have no idea how the top 4 are interchangeable when the other 70+ characters somehow can be specifically placed.

Regardless, it’s more or less what we see with every other tier list now, with a game of musical chairs apparently deciding the order of a familiar 15-20 characters.

Some notes on ESAM’s:

- is fairly high. Probably the first list I’ve seen where he is placed a bit above . I’ll watch the whole vid for his reasoning in a bit, but given that whenever Sigma or Ri-ma show up TL also appears in a high placement, I’m not surprised.

- being above is interesting, and seems to reflect a sort of top player sentiment that Fox has a higher ceiling than his disjoint heavy counterpart. Idk if I really agree with it, but Wolf is something like the Cloud of Ultimate, so top rep needs to be both extremely skilled and inventive in order to mix things up in a widely known MU.

- being relatively low is weird to me. Falcos hate the MU, true, but I haven’t seen ESAM really play any of the top level birds since Larry, so whatevs. While ESAM praises his Utilt, and does accurately point out that Falco wants to mitigate grounded approaches with laser, he goes on to say that you can “walk and shield until you are in a burst option distance” because laser doesn’t do much damage.

Of course, it doesn’t really matter that Laser doesn’t do much damage, because, as he mentioned: “it’s annoying.” Laser is for conditioning. He should know this, given that Tjolt does paltry damage and is primarily to condition the opponent.

Falco would love the opponent to be close, because it let’s him grab - his other massive combo starter. Falco doesn’t really have a problem with opponents with faster aerials, because his aerials are all generally quite fast. Falco wants to play anti-zone or anti-approach, and jam those attempts.

He certainly doesn’t want to approach tho.

- His placement is wild. It’s probably the main #ESAMopinion of the list, and it’s just bizarrely, well, wrong.

He mentioned that Marth’s disadvantage isn’t that good, when it’s basically the same as , which, if he thinks hers is good, then...? EDIT: he doesn’t. Fair point.

EDIT 2: the critique that Lucina doesn’t have overwhelming pressure like the top-top tiers is due - in part - to her lack of combos. Coincidentally, guess which character addresses that?

He mentioned how matches can snowball on Marth, and how (to paraphrase) “you should have gotten a tipper kill at 80, and now they are 150, and nothing will kill except a tipper.” In addition, he brought up how there are no Dancing Blade set-ups beside one that he vaguely refers to as “very percent specific and difficult to get”.

All of this seems based off of Leo playing. Marth has numerous opportunities in a given game to get Dancing Blade, including off of tech chases of which he can set up extremely easily with essentially all his moves - starting at extremely low percent, off Nair 1, off sour spot Fair, and others that I’m sure I’m forgetting.

If Marth is having an issue getting a kill, Lucina would also have an issue. The difference is that Marth can kill much earlier. This idea that his sours can’t kill until some absurdly high percent is wild. Even more wild is that Marth can play defensively just as well as Lucina, with the potential for nabbing tippers while doing so.

I’ve personally come around on Marth, and at this point, saying he is some matter of magnitude worse than Lucina sounds incredibly misinformed to me.

He may be quite underused, and yes, he does require more of a time investment, but this narrative that he is actually bad or mediocre is hilariously false.

If anything, he is the Roy to Lucina’s Chrom.

EDIT 3: bumping out of top tier almost solely due to his lack of an OoS game when he glosses over distinct lack of OoS options is... interesting.

also lack that and he put her at a top 8 character..so yeah.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Speaking of Out of Shield options, while this doesn't completely fix the issue at hand for Greninja in all situations, I've been seeing Somé from Japan make use of "Footstool OOS" a lot lately. At this point, I'll take whatever I can get to avoid this weakness and avoid getting pressured/cornered (parrying more, using substitute, utilizing our low profile/mobility, etc).

It's not as easy to make work as it was in S4 due to various changes in transition (overall less landing lag on a lot of aerials for example) but it still has its fair share of situational merit. Especially when you consider the fact that Greninja typically lacks offensive responses to blocked pressure as he usually prefers to Full Hop away and reset back to Neutral instead.

To be fair though, this can be serviceable enough at times, especially if platforms are involved or if a character can't chase well enough afterwards in general to continue the pressure/force Greninja to block again. GimR has talked about concepts such as Parry Shifting and Parry Footstool that might have potential as well (on top of old concepts like Shadow Parry) but I haven't looked into all of it on any deeper level since.

Example #1

Example #2

-------
On a side note, does anyone remember how to insert and make gfycat or imgur media files play directly on a smashboards post rather than just linking to it as I did above? I tried with the insert media button but it never seemed to work properly. What I did above works perfectly fine and doesn't clutter the page as much, but I was just wondering in general for future reference.

Some notes on ESAM’s:
bumping out of top tier almost solely due to his lack of an OoS game when he glosses over distinct lack of OoS options is... interesting.

interesting indeed

 

[Arthur97]

Oh goodie, another list of someone who doesn't know much of anything about the majority on the list.

 

[Y2Kay]

The number of characters in this game that have the tools, frame data, and mobility to break through Greninja's mid range zoning consistently enough and actually force Greninja to shield regularly is small enough to count on one hand.

And the best one at is . . . ? Can you guess?

Pikachu.

 

[bc1910]

Pretty good list. Nothing horribly controversial outside of some weird mid tier placements, and who really knows how to order mid tier in this game?

EDIT 3: bumping out of top tier almost solely due to his lack of an OoS game when he glosses over distinct lack of OoS options is... interesting.

The thing about Greninja is that he doesn’t just have bad OoS, he has virtually no OoS.

Joker has two 10f options to hit in front and behind him (4 + 6f grab and 3 + 7f Bair after additional shieldstun and jumpsquat respectively, Usmash is also frame 10) which at least force opponents not to mash on his shield. Greninja has a 4 + 10f grab to hit in front and literally nothing to hit behind on any reasonable frame except Bair on massive characters (DK, maybe Ridley, I don’t think it even works on Bowser). Bair OoS will hit certain OTGs like Withdraw, Peach Bomber and Homing Spin which gives it a useful niche but it’s still a non-option most of the time.

Unless you make a 14f+ mistake on the front of Greninja’s shield within his grab range and the Greninja reacts perfectly, you are guaranteed to not get OoS punished and you can probably mash jab or another aerial on his shield to continue the pressure. Let that sink in. This is in a game where aerials that leave you minus single digit frames are the norm, not the exception.

If you pull some absolute nonsense above or behind Greninja you might get Usmashed but I would barely consider that at high, let alone top level. The only other caveat is OoS Substitute which is invincible on frame 7 plus 3 frames of jumpsquat but this of course is a massive risk. No other character has the sheer weakness of options in terms of frame data that Greninja has including Lucario, Ganon and other characters often cited with bad OoS, so I can’t see how Greninja’s OoS isn’t the worst in the game. His only saving grace is that he has good shield escape options given his massive full hop, fast, long rolls and strong parry/spotdodge game.

There are plenty of top tiers with fairly bad OoS in this game including Joker, Palu, Inkling, and arguably Wolf, but none of these characters have the complete dearth of OoS options that Greninja does. I think it’s fair to single him out as “would be top tier otherwise” given his OoS is on a different level of dire.

Still, the existence of top tiers without busted OoS options shows that great OoS isn’t a necessity to compete in the upper echelons of the tier list. Imagine saying that about Smash 4.

The number of characters in this game that have the tools, frame data, and mobility to break through Greninja's mid range zoning consistently enough and actually force Greninja to shield regularly is small enough to count on one hand.

And the best one at is . . . ? Can you guess?

Pikachu.

This is an extremely important point and the main reason why Greninja is able to compete with the best characters in the game far more effectively than he ever could in S4, along with shielding being universally worse overall. S4 had a plethora of top tiers who suffocated Greninja at mid range including Sheik, Diddy, Fox and Sonic. None of these characters now have the reward or midrange capabilities to pressure Gren as they once did except Fox and even he is worse at it (Diddy is still annoying to fight and potentially a slightly losing MU IMO but for different reasons).

I do feel that Pikachu is just a tick too slow to be called the outright best at forcing Gren to shield, though his -12 on shield dash attack can be horrible to deal with. If the Gren player knows how to deal with T-jolt effectively then Pikachu’s mid range capabilities become significantly easier to manage. The title still goes to Fox for me since his midrange options are almost as safe as Pika’s whilst being richer and less reactable; Fox is also faster and better at chasing Greninja’s shield escape options. I’m too lazy to find the link but Game 2 of the recent ESAM vs Lea set is a great example of what optimal anti-Pika Greninja play should look like. Yes, Lea loses the set, largely due to allowing ESAM to go to Lylat for some reason and dying to Uair bridge with a stock lead at like 54, but Game 2 is still very impressive.

For what it’s worth I don’t think Gren actually loses either the Pika or Fox MU.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I can only say that it's good that ESAM didn't mention Zelda's dTilt in this video. Because it's not really an issue and I said before that this move comes out more often from the better Zelda players recently. It doesn't necessarily combo (although it can combo into fAir) but it's a get-off-me tool, as far as I can see it. It's also much safer than Nayru's love which should be used sparingly (like, landing on an opponents shield that has been damaged before. It'll usually shield poke).
Overall, can't really complain about what he said about her this time.

Not going to listen to what he said about other characters but his opinion about her is much more informed this time around. Placement is ok.
(Buff nAir, upSmash and fSmash, please)

 

[Crooked Crow]

Oh goodie, another list of someone who doesn't know much of anything about the majority on the list.

This meme needs to stop. ESAM has better fundamentals and knowledge than anyone else here, that is why he plays the game professionally, and you post on Smashboards.

 

[Lacrimosa]

This meme needs to stop. ESAM has better fundamentals and knowledge than anyone else here, that is why he plays the game professionally, and you post on Smashboards.

You can have better knowledge about soccer than your regular soccer player and still can't play it.
Like with every sport, you don't need to be good in order to have something valuable to say.
In other words: I wouldn't be surprised whether someone here has better knowledge of the game than MKLeo, ESAM etc.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Still, does that mean he might not be as strong as originally thought? The main strength of pokemon trainer is having three different characters with vastly different fighting strategies, strengths, and weaknesses allowing for mind games and the fact that those characters can switch at any time, but individually those characters are......sub par due to having a single solitary shared special.

Having one shared move isn't going to ruin any character, much less a move that's actually a viable frame 1 escape option. Plenty of indisputably good characters have worse moves then Pokemon Switch - Palutena and Lucina have counter, Pikachu has skull bash, ect. But it's not about what tools a character doesn't have, it's about if the tools a character does have work.

If any pokemon is sub par on its own, that's due to other reasons. Squirtle lacks range and kill power, Ivysaur lacks mobility and reliable CQC, and Charizard has poor frame data and a huge hurtbox. But they cover eachother's weaknesses well and I'm still confident Pokemon Trainer as a whole is a strong and flexible character that can adapt to nearly every situation.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Pokemon Trainer is definitely a top 10 character I think.

 

[Arthur97]

This meme needs to stop. ESAM has better fundamentals and knowledge than anyone else here, that is why he plays the game professionally, and you post on Smashboards.

Ever heard of caddies in golf? Essentially people with knowledge and not the skill. I don't claim to know more, but let's face it, most pros just don't know enough of the nuances of the roster to make a competent list. They actually play only a small portion, on only play really good players of a handful more. They are specialists. It takes more than fundamentals to evaluate fighters. There is a reason that real tier lists are group efforts. Plus, need I remind anyone of ZeRo's Smash 4 claims?

There's also the issue that, yes, they are better than a lot of people which can make some fighters seem better to them then they really are. There are also biases (ESAM being a good one to bring up here). No, that's not exclusive to pros, but it's there.

 

[Megamang]

Its also possible to win a matchup so hard you don't have to know much about the character. Its not as much a thing in this game, but its still possible... mostly because ESAM has a giant skill gap vs most people he plays.

Does he have to know much about mid tier MU's? Most of them are gimpable in the same way they were for a few games, and if ESAM can get you into a nair train and then offstage he can pretty much forgo some character knowledge. Especially when you are a dedicated main, you don't have to know how mid tiers interact with anyone but your character. Add to that Pikachu is a strange MU for most characters, and his knowledge isn't lacking so much as specified.

 

[Arthur97]

Like I said, they are specialists. That's fine for them generally, and if he was making a Pikachu matchup chart, he'd be the one to go to. But he isn't.

And the gimpableness does help explain his views on the Chrom/Roy relationship.

 

[Anomika]

Some tier lists might look like a mix of tier lists and matchup charts. Certain characters could be put low on one tier list because the pro player's main has a winning MU, and so they think that other fighters can also comfortably beat them. If someone were to make a tier list, I would also like to see matchup chart alongside it.

Cloud on ESAM's tier list shouldn't be in the same rank as Mewtwo , in my opinion, even though there's a chance that Pikachu has the same MU advantage over both. Robin also seems too low for me, but again, he probably did it because they're slow compared to most if not all high / top tiers (maybe also Pikachu bias here) and having small representation (albeit the results aren't bad for that placement).

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, the tacticians almost certainly seem too low. Especially to be in the actually bad category. Especially having them lower than Bayonetta and the Corrins.

 

[blackghost]

there are a few characters that seem to be approaching more of the theory craft area in terms of how people defend them.
idk how good marth is but i do know that i'll lean more towards marth recent success being more Leo than marth. with marth and roy that variation on the sweet spot is just not consistent for tournament gameplay vs other high-level players.
how good and are is still up for debate but I doubt people view them as high mid-tiers if we are debating placement within mid tier thats just like most characters at this point: drowning in the sea that is mid-tier.

i do think the top 15 are pretty much set at this point.
as for ESAM list itself. its pretty good imo a few interesting rankings placements like being above and a lot of faith in

ryu isvery good at running his gameplan of patience, grounded footsies, and fireballs(its literally street fighter in smash) but that gameplan isnt very effective vs a lot of smash characters and even a majority of legal stages. there's a reason gets better results.

barely even living.