Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

NairWizard · Oct 8, 2019

Nathan Richardson said:
And the point of all that was? I'm seriously confused as to what you're trying to explain because the analogy threw me off.

Translation: "If you put a gun to my head and asked me who the best character was right now, I'd say Joker, but it doesn't matter, so let's get back to talking about other things"

Minordeth · Oct 8, 2019

Molk said:
You're heavily underestimating bucket's use, sorry.

For one thing, you completely neglected to mention that not only does bucket absorb projectiles, but in Ultimate it reflects them as well, unlike other Reflectors, it doesn't have an increased multiplier to it, but the option is still there.

On top of that, you're heavily underestimating how good bucket's attack can be. As far as i can remember the damage on bucket is the damage of every projectile absorbed combinedx2 (down from 2.8 in smash 4), with a maximum of 48% and a minimum of 16%, because knockback scales with damage, higher damage buckets can KO at extremely early percents and oftentimes can simply instakill the opponent (for example, any bucket G&W gets in the snake matchup is going to instakill him lol). The attack is also frame 2, very disjointed, lingers for over 20 frames, and is EXTREMELY easy to combo into because of its speed, basically any move that leaves the opponent close to him is going to be able to true combo into it reliably, even including jab 1 at mid percents. Also, unlike smash 4 the animation when G&W puts away the bucket is completely intangible until the first frame he can act, making it very hard to punish him for absorbing something compared to previous games.

1.) None of what you said addresses one of the main issues with bucket, which is the paltry range - especially compared to what GnW is typically absorbing.

Like, it’s neat he can store charge shot. But bucket doesn’t travel across the screen to cover platform rolls or returns to stage or landings far away.

2.) Why should a Falco, YL, or Snake care if GnW gets a full bucket? Once GnW has a full bucket, then all projectiles are now a go.

Trying to punish him for bucketing is a red herring. The real question is, how does GnW get in close with a full bucket, now that his opponent has carte blanche with all their projectiles again?

Bonus: I neglected to mention it acts as a reflector because it’s a non-factor to the character issue I’m addressing.

course because the damage output of energy based projectiles varies, just how early bucket will KO is matchup dependent. But even weaker buckets are a solid combo ender and can still KO at high percents, and letting him get a full bucket in matchups such as the rats, snake, villager, and basically any character with a charge shot is suicide.

Why? What’s to stop Snake from cooking grenades and going ham on GnW with a full bucket?

If a frame 2 disjointed lingering instakill that's extremely easy to true combo into isn't impressive to you, i don't know what to say dude.

1.) but, as you just said, it’s not always an instakill.

2.) comboing anything requires GnW to get in. It doesn’t allow him to force approaches, which was the entire point of that side-bar on bucket in the first place.

3.) Bucket is a fine move, but it’s also limited in terms of use. It doesn’t solve a fundamental issue with GnW as a character.

PURGE THEM LIKE THE · Oct 8, 2019

Yea let's talk about mr gw some more.

If you aren't on the ledge or above him, what can mr gw force upon you? A wolf at midrange may dash attack through you or jump at you with some bs aerial at any moment, and from further away, shoot a laser. All of these things demand some sort of response, be it getting off the ground to dodge, putting up your shield and getting pressured as a result, or attacking wolf. Put mr gw in the same situation, and the threat just isn't there. Chef is not the type of projectile for forcing the opponent to come at you. His only aerial that can put on any pressure is bair, which is unrewarding to hit. Fair may pressure you only if you let it. Mr gw should never be jumping at you while facing you because the bomb from fair can be destroyed by any attack. His mediocre ground mobility means you generally should have little trouble staying right outside of his bubble and baiting unsafe dash attacks out of him.

Speaking of dash attack, don't be fooled, this move is much less safe than you think. He has to be close when he uses it to make it cross up your shield, and even then you still could punish it with an up b or up smash.

In general, when you mess up and let mr gw get close, you should opt to disengage. Mr gw has to commit harder than you in neutral, and you should be capitalizing on that.

The_Bookworm · Oct 8, 2019

OrionStats got updated: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

R.O.B. is now officially above

as #7 in the stats.

Due to his best players showing up a little bit less, as well as

performance this weekend, Ness dropped slightly to #17.

Pichu got a notable jump to #27, pushing other characters like

a little lower.

Samus is beginning to recover a little bit after this week after almost dropping out to top 40, now residing at 37th.

So far, Banjo is doing pretty good for being out for about a month. He is currently at 48th.

Bowser Jr. got a notable rise this weekend, now being ranked 52nd.

So apparently Lucas has gotten a notable rise this weekend, now being 56th. Similarly to Bowser Jr., I think his increase this weekend has to do more with other characters kind of dropping off the map than a single decent placement alone. Speaking of which...

Geez, these two have not been getting anything well lately. DK is currently at 57th and Dedede is at 58th, both over 10 places lower than earlier this season.

Thanks to MkLeo, Marth has notably risen to 63rd, now outplacing

.

TimG57867 · Oct 8, 2019

Another key factoid regarding

's F-Air I stumbled on a long while ago is that it actually doesn't blow up on contact with a character's hurtbox. It will only exploit if it falls a set distance (about a Smashville platform's worth of height) or hits a surface. And with Maister's recent performace, this tweet showcasing this nuance has been making rounds.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is actually important as it lessens the danger of a character with a decent jump, Up-Air, Up B, etc jumping/rising from their shield and going up to challenge the F-Air and punish Mr. Game and Watch. I must say, for as frequently as it's brought up that G&W's F-Air having awful priority is critical flaw with it, the actual counter-meta towards stuffing out F-Air isn't that developed. I still quite often see players of various calibre too afraid to risk challenging it in fear of getting blown up first and opt to stay in defensive positions like shield. Heck I just watched Zackray's impressive reverse 3-0 against Maister and even he didn't really try outright stuffing the F-Air bomb out much. He more frequently weaved around it to punish Maister. That's not to say knowing this instantly makes the move a non-issue but I can't help but feel the F-Air pressure gets respected a bit more than it should in many situations.

The_Bookworm said:
Geez, these two have not been getting anything well lately. DK is currently at 57th and Dedede is at 58th, both over 10 places lower than earlier this season.

A shame to see but not a major surprise to be honest. Over the course of this year both of these superheavies have seen major losses in their rep. Hikaru has full on dropped

in favor of

trainer while Konga retired post Port Priority. Meanwhile Big D has for the most part shelved his

in favor of

while Peli has resolved to drop DDD in favor of

. There's still a few capable DKs around and DDD still has Zaki and Atomsk as far as I am aware but that loss of rep ain't doing their scores any favors.

To look at the inverse side of things,

has slowly been crawling their way through the ranks. After that update there OrionStats score is 69.5 which is already over triple what they had by the end of last season in 22 and risen from 64th at the end of last season to 42nd right now. Big House definintely contributed as 2 Wii Fits snuck their way to 33rd there via CPU and Stas. What makes this sleeper rise score is more interesting as Wii Fit doesn't really have a single player that's outright putting a lot of their results on their back. Rather than having that 1 star player and a bit of support the way characters like

do, they just seem to have a bunch of capable players that may not get tons of big wins, but are slowly starting to creep further and further into the brackets of a lot of big tournies. And updates probably aren't responsible for this either as they haven't gotten a significant patch since April. I am eager to see if Wii Fit keeps up this overlooked climb.

KirbySquad101 · Oct 8, 2019

The idea that Mr. Game and Watch is gatekept easily by spammable projectiles would work... if A. Mr. Game Watch had

tier ground mobility and

tier air mobility to boot, and B. Didn't have a dash attack was absurdly fast and covered a ton of ground. The thing is, with a respectable initial dash, decent ground mobility, god-tier air acceleration, a great air speed, and a burst option in the form of dash attack, it actually doesn't take

more than a few buckets until he gets into the opponent's comfort zone. And the opponent has to know which option G&W will have to choose, whether it's grab, dash attack, jab, or simply shielding in anticipation of a retaliation. Guess what? Two of those options lead into Bucket. And if Mr. Game and Watch DOES get the drop on them with a full bucket, chances are that opponent will most likely be down a stock. It also helps that most characters with spammable projectiles are about as slow than Mr. Game and Watch, if not slower. Like it or not, there is a reason why most

s and

s won't go for Robo Beams and Grenades respectively, or why the match-up is much more manageable as

versus

(her Fishing Rod is far more valuable in the match-up versus Villager's Lloid that can end up getting him killed), and it is because Oil Panic can be so stupid as a swing factor in most instances. In most scenarios, it's more ideal to play it safe with your projectiles than to give G&W more ways to take your stock at absurdly low percents.

The only times I really noticed Bucket's absorption being ineffective is against

and

; pellets do a grand total of one damage per hit, so Mega Man won't actually be punished that badly for taking a hit. Similarly a bucket will absorb each of Holy Water's multi hits, all of which do pathetic damage; again, it means that Richter can actually take a few blows from Oil Panic. Palutena gets TWO absorbable multi-hit projectiles to boot, which makes it stupidly easy to fill up Mr. Game and Watch's bucket while also supplementing it with little power. It's one of the big reasons why the Palutena match-up is such a struggle; Bucket's issues start showing up more so when you realize multihit projectiles kind of take a dump on it.

That said, the added reflector helps a ton in certain match-ups; outside of the fact that it actually helps properly absorb stuff like Bombs now, the move is definitely useful against really annoying projectiles that the absorption can't cover, mainly

's Bonus Fruit,

's Metal Blade,

's Cross,

's Gyros,

's Pikmin toss, or

's Shurikens. It's not a godsend, but it helps all the more with G&W getting in and getting that sweet reward he wants, while also tacking on damage against the opponent and throwing them into hitstun. The Bucket's reflector does have its limits against certain characters though, namely

. The Razor Leaf will disappear before it bounces back in time, making it less likely for Ivysaur to get hit by it.

also kind of shrugs it off too, given that he can easily outmaneuver any eggs that are spat back at him.

Nonetheless, I don't think getting around projectiles is a major issue for G&W, as the Bucket definitely helps in making opponents think twice about what they're doing, while also allowing Mr. Game and Watch to close the distance between the opponent; his ground mobility and especially air mobility are salvageable enough that more often than not, he's able to get the drop on the opponent (we've seen Bucket work out in Maister's favor against kept, 8BitMan, yeti, and Tea despite losing to the latter). Instead, I think

's problems with a meh neutral show their blemishes against characters who can outmaneuver and outspace him, mainly

and

. Cloud is the most manageable of the bunch as Chef completely snuffs out his slow-as-molasses FAir, and low profile crouching helps against ZSS, but Palutena, Greninja, and Speed/Jump Art Shulk are way too fast and have too much far reaching attacks that beat out most of G&W’a neutral tools, which in turn can make it really hard for Mr. Game and Watch to get in on them. Bonus points to

, whose NAir, BAir, and FAir kind of just takes a massive dump on all of G&W's approach options.

are also tough as well, but at least BAir can deal with their attacks most of the time, and in the case of Chrom, Mr. Game and Watch can take full advantage of his poor disadvantage state (and he'll need to to win the match-up, yeesh).

would be hard for similar reasons, but his poor aerial drift hinders him in comparison to the other swordies.

Here is the match-up spread of three G&W mains that support this notion:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Across these 3 spreads, the agreed upon problematic match-ups seem to be

and

(although Maister is quite optimistic about the Shulk and Greninja match-ups oddly enough). For what it's worth, Maister thinks Mr. Game and Watch's worst MU is Ike.

The_Bookworm said:
OrionStats got updated: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/htmlview

R.O.B. is now officially above as #7 in the stats.
Due to his best players showing up a little bit less, as well as performance this weekend, Ness dropped slightly to #17.
Pichu got a notable jump to #27, pushing other characters like a little lower.
Samus is beginning to recover a little bit after this week after almost dropping out to top 40, now residing at 37th.
So far, Banjo is doing pretty good for being out for about a month. He is currently at 48th.
Bowser Jr. got a notable rise this weekend, now being ranked 52nd.
So apparently Lucas has gotten a notable rise this weekend, now being 56th. Similarly to Bowser Jr., I think his increase this weekend has to do more with other characters kind of dropping off the map than a single decent placement alone. Speaking of which...
Geez, these two have not been getting anything well lately. DK is currently at 57th and Dedede is at 58th, both over 10 places lower than earlier this season.
Thanks to MkLeo, Marth has notably risen to 63rd, now outplacing .

Dear lord, it sucks to be a Kirby fan right now lol. I know everyone's said their piece about Kirby, but

's fall from grace is even more tragic in my opinion. From #36 in Season 1 to #62 in Season 2, there just doesn't seem to be any interest in the character; Abandago barely uses him if ever nowadays, Cyro also rarely pulls him out, which just leaves BONK!, Jay, and S2H left.

Did I miss something overnight about this character that made him suddenly unviable in tournaments?

SapphSabre777 · Oct 9, 2019

KirbySquad101 said:
Dear lord, it sucks to be a Kirby fan right now lol. I know everyone's said their piece about Kirby, but 's fall from grace is even more tragic in my opinion. From #36 in Season 1 to #62 in Season 2, there just doesn't seem to be any interest in the character; Abandago barely uses him if ever nowadays, Cyro also rarely pulls him out, which just leaves BONK!, Jay, and S2H left.

Did I miss something overnight about this character that made him suddenly unviable in tournaments?

It isn't that he is unviable, per se, but the work he has to do to make his gameplan work is a bit much with all the flaws he has to work around, namely the devs giving him toothpick hitboxes again on his moves. When MK has the opponent at tumble or combo %s, the strengths of the character come alive, but his damage-racking to get those percents leaves a lot to be desired. He also tends to get outranged quite a bit and it can be troublesome even with his mobility specs, and it all comes down to a character that has an amazing edgeguard game being undermined by not having the tools needed to put the opponent in an edgeguard situation in the first place.

NotLiquid · Oct 9, 2019

Between TBH9 and UFA, another lesser stated tournament was had over the weekend with Battle for the East, which had LeoN, Rivers, UtopianRay, Sinji and a few other top players in attendance. I know we talked about Chrom a few pages ago, and I feel Rivers might've put forth the most compelling case for him being yet another of Bowser's harshest pieces of kryptonite during that entire set. The amount of conversions that Rivers got from every single spaced disjoint was so bad that it got to a point where the only thing Leon could do to equalize the stocks was to SD with off-stage side Bs.

I know that back in April, Leon put this matchup as even, though this was also a time when he put Inkling as a losing matchup (which I'm not sure if that's a sentiment he's wavered on, supposedly there was another Inkling player that beat him at some point after the infamous stomping of Cosmos). As great as Bowser is, he definitely feels like one of the characters in the high tier echelons that gets countered the hardest, especially with MUs like Peach.

Either way, more food for the Chrom crowd.

TennisBall · Oct 9, 2019

NotLiquid said:
Between TBH9 and UFA, another lesser stated tournament was had over the weekend with Battle for the East, which had LeoN, Rivers, UtopianRay, Sinji and a few other top players in attendance. I know we talked about Chrom a few pages ago, and I feel Rivers might've put forth the most compelling case for him being yet another of Bowser's harshest pieces of kryptonite during that entire set. The amount of conversions that Rivers got from every single spaced disjoint was so bad that it got to a point where the only thing Leon could do to equalize the stocks was to SD with off-stage side Bs.

I know that back in April, Leon put this matchup as even, though this was also a time when he put Inkling as a losing matchup (which I'm not sure if that's a sentiment he's wavered on, supposedly there was another Inkling player that beat him at some point after the infamous stomping of Cosmos). As great as Bowser is, he definitely feels like one of the characters in the high tier echelons that gets countered the hardest, especially with MUs like Peach.

Either way, more food for the Chrom crowd.

Poor LeoN. Chrom just has fun with heavies that can't outrange him. (Which is basically all of them.)

Rizen · Oct 9, 2019

TennisBall said:
Poor LeoN. Chrom just has fun with heavies that can't outrange him. (Which is basically all of them.)

A friend of mine who plays

said

are probably his worst MUs. Swordies can contest heavies' reach and are a lot faster.

Arthur97 · Oct 9, 2019

Actually, that brings up an interesting point, does Chrom do better against heavies than Roy due to greater effective reach?

DungeonMaster · Oct 9, 2019

I'm a bit surprised at the longevity of the sword based characters in the competitive environment. It's a year in and they are still fairly prominent in the meta. I still fully expect the basic disjoint characters to die off (hello ike) against the more complex combo and neutral characters, but devil is in the game engine details.

Rizen · Oct 9, 2019

DungeonMaster said:
I'm a bit surprised at the longevity of the sword based characters in the competitive environment. It's a year in and they are still fairly prominent in the meta. I still fully expect the basic disjoint characters to die off (hello ike) against the more complex combo and neutral characters, but devil is in the game engine details.

The meta favors strong reads and swordies have really good option coverage. Like I've said, Chroy (and slightly Marcina) are better than their Orion scores due to having them split between 2 very similar characters. Good swordies will remain a strong force in the meta.

Neutral isn't as important as in SSB4 due to everything being safe from lower landing lag, better mobility and the 6f of input lag. This is why strong read characters like CF and Bowser are pulling ahead of YL, Diddy and DH. It's all about low risk/high reward reads.

NairWizard · Oct 9, 2019

"Low-risk, high-reward reads" aren't reads. The whole point of a read is that you're taking a significant risk and overcommitting. If there's low or no risk, like Inkling b-air or Palutena n-air, then it's just a safe option rather than a read. Such safe options have been strong in smash in every entry.

It's not that neutral matters less, it's just that we're dealing with a dash-based neutral instead of a shield-based neutral, which means that the value of precise hitbox spacing isn't as high (note: you still need to space your attacks when you're actually hitting someone). You can d-tilt from half a stage length away and that's fine in this game, whereas in SSB4 you had to be poking at your opponent's shield for it not to look completely silly. The neutral in this game allows for mashing/pressing buttons, but that doesn't mean that it isn't important to have epic hitboxes and strong mobility.

Neutral still matters and slow characters like Falco will never be as good as fast characters like Fox in this game. Disjoints are also way better in an engine that permits mashing as a neutral strategy, so swords will always be strong.

NotLiquid · Oct 9, 2019

ESAM talking a bit about Plant and how he feels the character has put its best foot forward in proving it's far from a bottom tier candidate.

He still feels the character is somewhere in the lower-mid of the cast, mostly by process of elimination and the breadth of good characters, but reckons it's perfectly viable - possibly with a secondary to cover a couple ubiquitous problem MUs like Palutena and Wario - and that its setplay and prowess for frametrapping is pretty insidious under the surface, which among other things gives it a solid MU against Olimar.

NairWizard · Oct 9, 2019

I love ESAM, but I can't watch his videos. There are bullet trains that move slower than that man talks.

Seems like he's getting better though.

Anyway, Plant has some excellent setplay and is one of the few characters who can edgeguard the likes of Sheik and Lucina safely. He's definitely got a niche.

$.A.F. · Oct 9, 2019

NotLiquid said:
ESAM talking a bit about Plant and how he feels the character has put its best foot forward in proving it's far from a bottom tier candidate.

He still feels the character is somewhere in the lower-mid of the cast, mostly by process of elimination and the breadth of good characters, but reckons he's perfectly viable - possibly with a secondary to cover a couple ubiquitous problem MUs like Palutena and Wario - and that its setplay and prowess for frametrapping is pretty insidious under the surface, which among other things gives it a solid MU against Olimar.

I was literally just going to post this. I agree with the placement as well as a mid tier. I personally would rank him as flat out mid but I can see where Esam is coming from. There really are a buttload of viable characters in this game and that’s why so many viable characters are considered bad

Arthur97 · Oct 9, 2019

Plant serves as a prime example about not being too quick to judge. Chrom could also fit this bill as many seemed to write him off before the game was even out.

The_Bookworm · Oct 9, 2019

While

is certainty better than first thought, I am still pretty pessimistic about calling the plant mid tier.

Brood's performance is still pretty nice, and has showcased new stuff with the character, but players from Japan (such as Kameme) did comment that they didn't really have any prior matchup experience with the plant. Gackt is the obvious outliner to this, but still. Brood himself (and any other PPlant player) still hasn't really come even close to that same performance as before (or any notable upsets for that matter), and it has already been almost two months since that performance.

There is still the same weaknesses pointed out for plant since the beginning, such as lack of reliable approach options, slow frame data in the air (with very questionable hitboxes), a vulnerable recovery, etc. I am still approaching the plant with caution, as I do believe that some top players are still jumping the gun.

On a quite side-note, why did it take ESAM almost two months after the performance to make a video about it?

ZephyrZ · Oct 9, 2019

NotLiquid said:
I know we talked about Chrom a few pages ago, and I feel Rivers might've put forth the most compelling case for him being yet another of Bowser's harshest pieces of kryptonite during that entire set. The amount of conversions that Rivers got from every single spaced disjoint was so bad that it got to a point where the only thing Leon could do to equalize the stocks was to SD with off-stage side Bs.

I don't think it was simply that Bowser was outranged or out damaged. We've seen LeoN tank lengthy 50+% combos before and simply shrug them off.

I think the real issue was that Chrom's combos carried Bowser to the edge of the stage, and stage control is very important for both heavies and swordies. It was after winning neutral once that Chrom was able to trap Bowser at the ledge for basically his entire stock.

It doesn't help that Bowser's one saving grace when in the corner - his amazing OoS game - is shut down by Chrom's phenomenal shield pressure. In neutral Chrom was having a harder time safely spacing against such a fast moving, aggressive Bowser, and you saw him get a few whirling fortress punishes. But at the ledge, Chrom could just poke Bowser's shield at his leisure.

$.A.F. · Oct 9, 2019

The_Bookworm said:
While is certainty better than first thought, I am still pretty pessimistic about calling the plant mid tier.

Brood's performance is still pretty nice, and has showcased new stuff with the character, but players from Japan (such as Kameme) did comment that they didn't really have any prior matchup experience with the plant. Gackt is the obvious outliner to this, but still. Brood himself (and any other PPlant player) still hasn't really come even close to that same performance as before (or any notable upsets for that matter), and it has already been almost two months since that performance.

There is still the same weaknesses pointed out for plant since the beginning, such as lack of reliable approach options, slow frame data in the air (with very questionable hitboxes), a vulnerable recovery, etc. I am still approaching the plant with caution, as I do believe that some top players are still jumping the gun.

On a quite side-note, why did it take ESAM almost two months after the performance to make a video about it?

Dude, he beat protobanham 3 weeks after the fact. And has since beaten Umeki. He hasn’t attended any Umebura or Sumabato or any major since for that matter due to work. At Glitch there were two plants in top 64. 4 days ago a plant got top 16 at an A tier. That’s hella good when Brood hasn’t attended a major in almost two months.

And if you wanna look at character strengths and weaknesses, can we bring up that he beats Olimar handily, goes fairly even with snake, a frame 6 dash attack that crosses up and grants instant stage control, a kill throw and a combo throw a super fast up air that combos into itself and kills, (though obviously meh active frames), a pretty good (yes I said it) recovery that can be stalled by three separate specials, goes a crazy long distance, can be maneuvered a lot, and helps him of course with deep edgeguards, another very strong trait of his. He has the best shield break punishment in the game with cloud and a great amount of ways to break shields to boot. Down special and Ptooie do amazing shield damage, especially the former. He has a Nair that combos. Even though he’s combo food, he lives FOREVER. In my own experience I routinely live to 150+ on average. He has probably the most ridiculous up smash in the game with a frame 12 intangible anti air that even without rage kills at <90%. With rage it isn’t uncommon for this move to kill in the S I X T I E S. And worst/best part, DI barely affects it and those percentages are with perfect DI. And that’s not his best move or aspect which leads us to two things.
We’ll start with his ledgetrap game.

has the nigh undisputed best ledgetrapping in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate for the Nintendo Switch. Routinely a singular throw offstage leads to Plant putting 60 to 80 percent onto an opponent if not the kill as well. That’s stupid. But if we want to really talk about stupid, then it’s time to discuss my final point...Ptooie.

Ptooie is basically Belmont axe. On crack. That crack was laced with anabolic steroids where each pill was filled with the offspring of the spider that bit Peter Parker. And those spiders were from krypton and the sun was a blue sun. And....I think you get what I’m trying to say which is that IMO Ptooie is the literal best move in the game and here’s why:

1. Speed. It’s super duper fast as an anti air since it’s frame 8. As a projectile it’s as fast as PK Fire. For what it does that’s great frame data.

2. Time Active/holding it. This move can be held almost indefinitely without launching it just holding it up in the air effectively destroying jumping as a strategy just by being there. Also it lasts forever when launched too. Like forever forever. It lasts long enough to combo into smash attacks by rolling off platforms. Which brings me to

3. Combos. If you don’t launch ptooie, it combos into forward air and up air at low percentages for ~25% or so. If you launch it, it combos into dash attack for 30%, free stage control and a Plant ledgetrap. And it can also kill confirm by being rolled off platforms as I mentioned by comboing into smash attacks.

4. Shield Safety. This move is +7 on shield for some reason. That means (other than it being safe) it functions like pre patch snake up smash in that it guarantees a grab if done right next to a shield. That’s dumb.

5. Launch distances. Not much to say other than it’s obviously useful as not to have as many blind spots the projectile can’t hit.

6. Edge Guarding. This move is really, really good for edgeguarding your opponent. It takes stocks early enough when launched offstage, bug you can abuse recoveries as well by holding Ptooie above a recovery forcing your opponent to hit it and often times hit you dropping Ptooie right on their head.

7. Anti Edgeguarding. Not only does this move stall you in midair, it puts out a frame 8 hitbox directly above you that is hella disjointed thwarting anyone attempting to challenge it. It really does help when people get greedy.

8. Trades. This move can literally punish people for hitting you. Ptooie falls down directly in front of you and below you if your opponent hits you while having it up. This means that you can trade with this move when frankly, it does more damage than almost any move your opponent will use in neutral. Also it kills so a move spaced wrong can cost you a stock at higher percentages fairly easily. And trading is an amazing strategy since Plant weighs as much as a super heavyweight almost. This is great.

9. Ledgetrapping. It lasts forever, covers jump, can prevent high recovery Or people jumping over cloud/dash attack and punishes your opponent extremely hard as your opponent eats great damage and is sent back offstage.

10. Power. This move does 20% and still >15 when staled to the maximum. It kills at the low 100s and as low as 40 offstage sometimes though rather uncommon and routinely offstage it kills at 80. For a projectile that’s ridiculous. Also it does amazing shield damage and shield pokes.

TLDR: Plant hasn’t been getting these results as much lately because Brood hasn’t attended a major since. Even so the results he has right now are representative of a mid tier and rather impressive. And yes, Plant has weaknesses, but his strengths are super duper jank especially Ptooie.

TimG57867 · Oct 10, 2019

I mean even with Brood’s sporadic activity

’s results as of late aren’t too shabby at all if you’re just trying to make him out to be a mid tier. It’s key to remember just like other characters like

, while he does have a player clearly ahead of the pack, the ones just below him can be deceptively consistent and capable as well.

Case in point, just this last weekend, Greward managed to get 13th at Ultimate Fighting Arena in his run beat Lucky who made Top 32 at Albion 4 alongside him and his losses were to MkLeo and Tarik which nothing to feel bad about.

One shouldn’t be too laser focused on Brood. Plant Gang has other people more than capable of showing up and considering how nebulous our defining for low tier is atm, the prospect of Pirahna Plant fitting in isn’t unrealistic at al.

Frihetsanka · Oct 10, 2019

SolidSense said:
I love ESAM, but I can't watch his videos. There are bullet trains that move slower than that man talks.

Pro tip: You can speed up YouTube videos, 1.25x is probably pretty good for ESAM if you think he speaks too slowly.

Crooked Crow · Oct 10, 2019

Frihetsanka said:
Pro tip: You can speed up YouTube videos, 1.25x is probably pretty good for ESAM if you think he speaks too slowly.

He said ESAM speaks too quickly. This wouldn't help. :yoshi:

NotLiquid · Oct 10, 2019

Crooked Crow said:
He said ESAM speaks too quickly. This wouldn't help.

That's the joke

Crooked Crow · Oct 10, 2019

NotLiquid said:
That's the joke

Figured he just misread it.

Frihetsanka · Oct 10, 2019

Crooked Crow said:
He said ESAM speaks too quickly. This wouldn't help.

Woah, huh. Yes, I did misread it, but ESAM speaking too quickly? I really don't agree with that. Well... I guess you could watch other videos of people speaking quickly until you get used to listening to people like that, and then listen to ESAM? Or just listen to ESAM. Or don't, up to you.

Nebunera · Oct 12, 2019

I don't know why but I have a weird feeling

is going to get a nerf next patch.

Arthur97 · Oct 12, 2019

If the next patch is like the last one, not much of anything will happen. Though, Wario seems like an odd choice.

Lacrimosa · Oct 12, 2019

Arthur97 said:
If the next patch is like the last one, not much of anything will happen. Though, Wario seems like an odd choice.

Well, I can imagine that some people think that Waft is a really cheap move

.

Wunderwaft · Oct 12, 2019

It takes 1 minute and 45 seconds to fully charge waft. Meaning on average Wario can only use the full power of the move twice in a match, unless the opponent decides to camp Wario for some reason. This restriction makes the move less ridiculous since Wario doesn't always have waft on deck, and even then it's not like it's an auto guarantee for a win because it's possible the move might whiff and you'll get punished for it. People talk about how utilt to waft is braindead but the timing for the move is strict and the jump needs to be buffered, and after certain percents the confirm stops working.

Rizen · Oct 12, 2019

Wunderwaft said:
It takes 1 minute and 45 seconds to fully charge waft. Meaning on average Wario can only use the full power of the move twice in a match, unless the opponent decides to camp Wario for some reason. This restriction makes the move less ridiculous since Wario doesn't always have waft on deck, and even then it's not like it's an auto guarantee for a win because it's possible the move might whiff and you'll get punished for it. People talk about how utilt to waft is braindead but the timing for the move is strict and the jump needs to be buffered, and after certain percents the confirm stops working.

Even half charged waft is very strong. Most of the time Wario doesn't need to fully charge it. When does wario get punished for Waft? The move sends him upward so it's very hard to punish. It's not an auto win but Wario's definitely a top tier and waft's a big part of that. He can kill at 80% and completely turn games around.

|RK| · Oct 12, 2019

Wunderwaft said:
It takes 1 minute and 45 seconds to fully charge waft. Meaning on average Wario can only use the full power of the move twice in a match, unless the opponent decides to camp Wario for some reason. This restriction makes the move less ridiculous since Wario doesn't always have waft on deck, and even then it's not like it's an auto guarantee for a win because it's possible the move might whiff and you'll get punished for it. People talk about how utilt to waft is braindead but the timing for the move is strict and the jump needs to be buffered, and after certain percents the confirm stops working.

- or unless Wario decides to camp the opponent. Which isn't uncommon.

Spinosaurus · Oct 12, 2019

Assuming they're balancing primarily on elite smash (and they probably are, I'm 100% sure it's why Ivy got nerfed the way she did), I don't see Wario getting touched. Input lag doesn't do his stubby range and strict confirm windows any favors.

Hydreigonfan01 · Oct 12, 2019

Spinosaurus said:
Assuming they're balancing primarily on elite smash (and they probably are, I'm 100% sure it's why Ivy got nerfed the way she did), I don't see Wario getting touched. Input lag doesn't do his stubby range and strict confirm windows any favors.

Eh, I don't see input lag working for Pichu or Olimar and they got nerfed still in 3.1.0. I'm guessing they're basing it off both.

Hydreigonfan01 · Oct 12, 2019

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dgn1vg/inktivates_pro_players_tier_lists_combined/
This is a combination of all the different pro-players opinions on tier lists for October. General thoughts on this?

Arthur97 · Oct 12, 2019

Depends on how much of a difference 0.1 is for Roy and Chrom.

I'm also suspicious of Joker having a pure 5.0 and Banjo and Kazooie being so low.

The_Bookworm · Oct 12, 2019

Hydreigonfan01 said:
View attachment 241804

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dgn1vg/inktivates_pro_players_tier_lists_combined/
This is a combination of all the different pro-players opinions on tier lists for October. General thoughts on this?

The tier list is honestly kind of solid. A few placements I feel off (for example I think Zelda, Dedede, and TLink can be ranked higher), but that is nothing unusual.

Also, it is kind of tragic on how far all the non-Bowser super-heavyweights have fallen.

Rizen · Oct 12, 2019

Hydreigonfan01 said:
View attachment 241804

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dgn1vg/inktivates_pro_players_tier_lists_combined/
This is a combination of all the different pro-players opinions on tier lists for October. General thoughts on this?

The list of players used is a little questionable; it looks like he grabbed what lists he could find and doesn't represent top level play.
https://i.imgur.com/y0wO8Nb.png
it also represents the western meta with only 3 japanese players.

With that said, you'd probably get a similar list from any group of ranked players. At least these people have preformed well in live tournaments. It's not bad. As usual

are ranked higher than their 19th and 22nd placements on Orion stats, respectively. I can't see them above ROB and Mario. Conversely,

is much too low, but what else is new? We need a ness player to beat Leo so he'll finally be taken seriously. Also, why is Ken mid and Yoshi and YL high if they all have 3.0? I have some other nit-picks like Link could be down a tier, CF and ike up a tier but in general it looks pretty good.

L9999 · Oct 12, 2019

Arthur97 said:
Depends on how much of a difference 0.1 is for Roy and Chrom.

I'm also suspicious of Joker having a pure 5.0 and Banjo and Kazooie being so low.

Because top players don't live in denial and acknowledge Joker is a really good character.

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