Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Krysco

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This video here mentions that Roy's Blazer starts killing around 120% when grounded.
I'm not sure if he factored in DI or not. Onstage Blazer is actually a much better move than onstage Soaring Slash with it coming out f9 instead of f10, having super armour on f4 instead of f10, killing sooner and only dealing around 5% less damage. I was trying to check videos to see if Chrom's Soaring Slash covers more vertical distance than Roy's up angled Blazer but nothing mentioned it.
 

Anomika

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Glad to see more of Bowser Jr.'s :ultbowserjr: representation. I was honestly surprised when people still considered him and the Koopalings low tier at the release date, but looks like it's changing for the better. Not the most exciting character to watch, but as they say: the more the merrier!
 

|RK|

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Interesting people are looking back and forth at Chrom and Roy on who is better or such.

On an inverse note, I'd love to propose that we have our biggest case of a character that is truly unviable in the meta: :ultkirby:.

I've waited and waited, dabbled and dabbled, but I've come to accept that Kirby isn't just the worst character in the game by a mile, but he is actually unviable in a game where characters like Puff, K. Rool, Little Mac and others, while having their huge flaws, have enough of a kit to allow them to pull off wins and upsets at big tournaments and gatherings. That says so much about Kirby, who has never really done much other than Jesuischoq's almost breakout performance at Albion and Komota's almost win versus Void. At least other characters have had a big win under their belt or a good showing at a tournament (namely ranked), but Kirby has zilch in terms of big, determinant wins over key players, despite the fact he has points.

The truth is, even with multiple jumps, even with certain appealing aspects (tilts and strong Smashes), this character is held back by every single conceivable thing known to man. One of the worst neutrals in the game which is held back by his too-honest and too-stubby range, an advantage once feared now diminished because of the new engine guttering his combos compared to the rest of the cast, and a dreadful disadvantage that cannot be saved by having multiple jumps or magnet hands. The amount of work needed to win with this character is truly greater than any other.

No other character has this putrid mix of absent players putting up performances and a dreadful character in-play and on-paper. At least Little Mac, K. Rool, Puff, and many others have results and players or halfway decent theoretical traits that help bolster the character in-play and on-paper, but Kirby has neither, and likely won't unless he gets a big boost on his attributes and moves to actually make them meaningful. Until then, Kirby is a dead end character that really doesn't deserve any discussion.
Seems more like a vent than anything, even if we can agree Kirby is lacking.
 

Arthur97

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This video here mentions that Roy's Blazer starts killing around 120% when grounded.
I'm not sure if he factored in DI or not. Onstage Blazer is actually a much better move than onstage Soaring Slash with it coming out f9 instead of f10, having super armour on f4 instead of f10, killing sooner and only dealing around 5% less damage. I was trying to check videos to see if Chrom's Soaring Slash covers more vertical distance than Roy's up angled Blazer but nothing mentioned it.
Something important to consider is that Soaring Slash can drag them to higher platforms. So if you land it in the middle of Battlefield, it will kill sooner. It's armor also last longer than Blazer's by a decent bit. Still not sure I'd call Blazer a much better move offensively.
 
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Arthur97

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Doing some testing, Soaring Slash kills from the top platform of Battlefield at about 140% and the side ones around 155%. Though, from the floor of Battlefield, Blazer was not killing Mario at 120%. I did have the shuffle on, so that may have accounted for it, though maybe Omega stages simply have lower blast lines, I don't know.
 

Zachmac

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Welp, with Leo using Marth, how long until he's suddenly "better" than Lucina?
I doubt people are going to change their opinions about Lucina that quickly.

I don't think MKLeo is even planning on maining Marth when his Joker is already proving to be so consistent. Marth is probably going to be his secondary at best. It'll probably stir up some buzz but I don't think everyone is going to start declaring Lucina as irrelevant, especially if other high level players continue to prefer her.

If anything, this has the potential to end up like a Roy/Chrom situation where people go back and forth on who they think is better.
 

Arthur97

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I doubt people are going to change their opinions about Lucina that quickly.

I don't think MKLeo is even planning on maining Marth when his Joker is already proving to be so consistent. Marth is probably going to be his secondary at best. It'll probably stir up some buzz but I don't think everyone is going to start declaring Lucina as irrelevant, especially if other high level players continue to prefer her.

If anything, this has the potential to end up like a Roy/Chrom situation where people go back and forth on who they think is better.
Them even being in a Chrom and Roy situation seems excessive, but I think Marth may be one of the fighters that would most benefit from Leo syndrome. He could likely make Marth look really good leading people to say they are vindicated in all their theories for him leaving out the fact that he's the best leaving Marth still bad for the other 99.99% of players.

And, come on, the competitive community seems to have some knee jerk tendencies.
 

Idon

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Something I found out today, is that MkLeo won a France local over Glutonny:ultwario: using :ultmarth:.


Between this, and Leo using solo Marth so far at UFA 2019, Leo is trying to bring the character into public attention.
If Marth legitimately ends up being top tier and just not a result of MKLeo just being spacing Jesus, I'd be surprised. Even if he realizes Marth's full "kill at 60" potential, I doubt the Chromcina mains will change their tune any time soon.
 

L9999

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Of course she's really good, but we've been through this song and dance of the best fighter in the game so many times at this point. Can you definitively say that she's the best in the game? I kind of doubt you can do that with any fighter in Ultimate.
Honestly, I haven't really considered a best character before Wolf started to drop a little, and Pichu got nerfed. Those seemed to be the safest bets. There's no clear outstanding character yet, which is both great and a bit underwhelming...
Is :ultjoker: a joke to all of you? He has all the traits of a good Smash Bros character:

> Mobility: good
> Frame data: good
> Projectiles: good
> Kill confirms: plenty
> Raw power: plenty
> Recovery: good enough
> Range: OK/good
> Aerial toolkit: good
> Edgeguarding: very good
> Ledgetrapping: good enough
> Ability to counter camping: pretty capable
> Ability to escape pressure: good enough
> Ability to keep leads: Eiga
> Survivability: Good enough.
> X-Factor: Arsene

"But Leo is the only one who brings big results with Joker."

That is probably because Leo is much more skilled than all the other Joker players, and displays what Joker can do best, not that Joker is carried by him.

"Please, it is Leo."

If Joker is overrated because of Leo, why aren't Palutena, ZSS, Peach overrated too? Nairo, Marss and Samsora have much higher peaks than all the other players of their respective character.

"Leo made Ike look good."

You can tell from his later footage Leo carried the character, Ike's issues with his recovery and subpar frame data really showed. To add to this we have the case of Riddles, he got top 16 with Richter, does this mean Richter is a good character? Well no, when you watch the footage you can tell the character is total trash and held him back. When Riddles plays a real character it is a different story.
 
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Daisycakes

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Speaking of Orion Stats, I have some thoughts on the current state of some characters:

  • :ultpichu: has reentered the Top 30 characters after a significant decline after his nerfs, proving that he is still a good character.
  • :ultfalco: has entered the Top 30 for (what I am pretty sure is) his first time. I personally expect him to keep climbing up closer to the other space animals but we'll see.
  • :ultmario: and :ultrob: are currently fighting for 7th place. It seems pretty clear to me that Mario is the better character although it's interesting that ROB is that high as some people would like to think a character with weaknesses as exploitable as ROB's (:ultbowser: being the other good example) is incapable of getting consistent results at tournaments.
  • :ultwolf: is still at #1 after all this time with :ultjoker: and :ultsnake: trailing behind.
  • Speaking of :ultsnake:, his results haven't fallen off as hard as people were predicting after Ally left the scene.
  • :ultsheik: has also been climbing up the list over the last few weeks.
  • Despite :ulticeclimbers: supposedly having a lot of potential, they continue to to sit in the bottom 20 characters.
  • :ultcorrin: is still the lowest character on the list and the gap between her and the next best character just keeps getting larger.


All of this to say, that none of this is too surprising with the exception of Corrin. I'm seriously starting to consider if Corrin is actually just significantly worse than we all think as there's no good reason that her results should be this much lower than everyone else's, even if she is very similar to other swordfighters.
We should really merge Roy and Chrom’s results since they are so neck and neck.
 

NotLiquid

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So I think this needs to be shared here since we don't have a topic about the tournament


Space :ultinkling: 3 - 2 Glutonny :ultwario: in one of the biggest nail biter sets of this season at Ultimate Fighting Arena. The spacing and option coverage on display here just comes to show how devastating this character can be. Despite trading games and a devastating 3-stock at Game 4, Space just wouldn't let that impact his momentum.

Europe out here making "Inkling can't kill" look like one of the biggest memes on planet earth. That entire set was legendary.
 
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Impax

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So I think this needs to be shared here since we don't have a topic about the tournament


Space :ultinkling: 3 - 2 Glutonny :ultwario: in one of the biggest nail biter sets of this season at Ultimate Fighting Arena. The spacing and option coverage on display here just comes to show how devastating this character can be. Despite trading games and a devastating 3-stock at Game 4, Space just wouldn't let that impact his momentum.

Europe out here making "Inkling can't kill" look like one of the biggest memes on planet earth. That entire set was legendary.
That set was hype. Space did such a good job weaving around gluttony in the air.
 

Arthur97

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Is :ultjoker: a joke to all of you? He has all the traits of a good Smash Bros character:

> Mobility: good
> Frame data: good
> Projectiles: good
> Kill confirms: plenty
> Raw power: plenty
> Recovery: good enough
> Range: OK/good
> Aerial toolkit: good
> Edgeguarding: very good
> Ledgetrapping: good enough
> Ability to counter camping: pretty capable
> Ability to escape pressure: good enough
> Ability to keep leads: Eiga
> Survivability: Good enough.
> X-Factor: Arsene

"But Leo is the only one who brings big results with Joker."

That is probably because Leo is much more skilled than all the other Joker players, and displays what Joker can do best, not that Joker is carried by him.

"Please, it is Leo."

If Joker is overrated because of Leo, why aren't Palutena, ZSS, Peach overrated too? Nairo, Marss and Samsora have much higher peaks than all the other players of their respective character.

"Leo made Ike look good."

You can tell from his later footage Leo carried the character, Ike's issues with his recovery and subpar frame data really showed. To add to this we have the case of Riddles, he got top 16 with Richter, does this mean Richter is a good character? Well no, when you watch the footage you can tell the character is total trash and held him back. When Riddles plays a real character it is a different story.
Why aren't the others overrated? Did you just miss the part where people were talking about Palutena being the best in the game?

No, I don't think Joker can definitively be called the best.
 

Arthur97

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Okay, I had set damage on last time, so some revised numbers: Soaring Slash kills on the side platforms at around 135-140% (starting %), and at the top at around 120 % (again, starting). Blazer still wasn't killing on Battlefield at 120% (on the ground) though. Blazer also gets a good bit weaker if done in a jump. Yes, I know this is about on stage, but it's still something to note. Test subject was Mario of course.

Soaring Slash also has significantly more vertical reach than an up angled Blazer (seems pretty obvious) with Blazer not even landing him on the top platform while Soaring Slash goes beyond it by a decent amount.
 
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:ultrosalina: is one of those characters where it is hard to have an opinion of them. Character has really good things but is held by really bad things, but I still feel like she can go higher and higher.
I've the feeling that a top-player's opinion has higly influenced the perception of Rosaluma. She's still much better than Dabuz thinks she is or he's highly sarcastic and says that in order to get her buffed again.
 

Arthur97

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Why? Do we need a tier 0 Joker meta to convince you?
Maybe I need actual showings that he's the best. Outside of Leo, Joker becomes more or less another top tier. Strong, but hardly oppressive. Just cause you want to sing his praises doesn't mean I have to.
 

ElectricBlade

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I personally think for this game it doesn't really matter who the best character is, playing the best character in this game will not carry you by any stretch of the imagination. At least in my opinion, the top ten or so are all about on the same level with negligible differences in viability.
 

Idon

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Yeah, this Marth pick is not... working out great for Leo.

I have to question the logic of switching to him at GF when Joker was doing just fine before.

Now we're back to Joker on the reset, so now there's no safety net anymore...
 
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To put it bluntly, the reason Joker isn't the best is because Leo is the only player that can get anything done with him. Every high placement with Joker has been with one and only one player:MKLeo. Unless you can show players that hit top 16 with Joker other than MKLeo everything else is just theorycraft.
 

Arthur97

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Haven't a few others done decently with Joker? Not dominating by any stretch of the imagination, but at least top 16.

Also, I thought Leon was a Bowser main, not Lucina. I also don't like only seeing one Lucina.
 
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