Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Ziodyne 21]

Chrom also has Rivers (Formerly Shoyo James) Mr.R . MKLeo claims he has Chrom as a potential secondary but he has not used competively yet.

Never mind. You meant participating at Big House. I am stupid and pathetic.

 

[Krysco]

Never mind. You meant participating at Big House. I am stupid and pathetic.

It's all good man. I mentioned the lack of Mr. R since he's a noteworthy Chrom but I forgot about Rivers since I'm still not used to his new tag. Didn't mention MKLeo since I wanna see him actually pull out Chrom in tournament before labelling him as a Chrom player. There appears to be more noteworthy Roy players in general compared to Chrom players.

 

[Caiahar]

Why exactly Corrin considered bad now? What's different about her here compared to Smash 4 that makes her almost consistently considered not good?

 

[PK Bash]

MKLeo used Chrom to defeat Gackt at Uprising after Gackt handily bested Joker game 1.
https://youtu.be/xuBsyMTWFb0

 

[Deleted member]

Why exactly Corrin considered bad now? What's different about her here compared to Smash 4 that makes her almost consistently considered not good?

It really depends who you ask. Some say most of her tools are still there and claim that he/she is not a bad character, with potential being the key here.
Others (which might be what you’re looking for) had a lot of his/her tools nerfed. The Smash 4 engine that fitted Corrin well simply didn’t mix well with the Ultimate engine (Pin being gutted, combo/juggling capabilities worsened, some unrewarding moves not killing reliably until very high percents).

 

[Impax]

To follow up on the list Bookworm provided, the top 100 standings have been revealed for Big House:

1. Samsora
2. Marss ()
3. Nairo ()
4. Tweek ()
5. Light
6. ESAM (?)
7. Dabuz ()
8. Shuton ()
9. Maister
10. Dark Wizzy
11. Elegant ()
12. VoiD ()
13. zackray
14. Stroder ()
15. WaDi (? )
16. Salem
17. Abadango ()
18. BestNess
19. kept ()
20. Cosmos
21. Pandarian ()
22. ScAtt
23. Joker ()
24. MVD
25. Meme ()
26. Prodigy
27. Salt One
28. Puppeh
29. MuteAce
30. Goblin
31. Jakal ()
32. Mr E
33. Larry Lurr
34. Blacktwins13 ()
35. NickC
36. Saurez
37. Wishes
38. Jw
39. NAKAT
40. Plup
41. Ismon
42. Sonido
43. 8BitMan ()
44. RFang
45. Fatality
46. Zinoto
47. Mystearica
48. Ryuga
49. Ned
50. Venia
51. Toast
52. MastaMario
53. Skilly
54. MattyG ()
55. Morpheus
56. Cyro
57. ATATA
58. Daybreak
59. Armada
60. Ozone
61. king_chris
62. dyr
63. Seagull Joe
64. Zenyou
65. Jayy ()
66. DarkShad ()
67. Charliedaking
68. Gomakenpi
69. Wizzrobe
70. ChillyChilli
71. Epic_Gabriel
72. Shadow_PR
73. tamim
74. BooBear
75. colonies
76. Trela ()
77. Midnight
78. WelfarePickles
79. Ksev
80. SuperGirlKels ()
81. Comet
82. ChocoTaco
83. Advo
84. Skorpio
85. Grayson
86. AndrewT
87. Geist
88. Xzax
89. Radda
90. Dath
91. SaSSy
92. Ross
93. AzureJones
94. iModerz
95. AvoiD
96. Roxas
97. Cookietic
98. Panda Bair ()
99. Whispy
100. Z ()

Notable players beyond that:

102. Jumpsteady
106. Komota
107. Rickles
108. Key
112. Slither2Hunter
117. AceStarThe3rd()
125. Dietsoda
130. Drystan
145. UR2SLOW

*Brackets () indicate possible secondaries

Also, what's with all the s? There's almost as many R.O.B.s here as there are s and s, yeesh.

I feel like stas is also being overlooked in top 100. Hes been doing really well in Ontario. Recently won a local over the blacktwins and in general is performing much better this season. He got like 9th at dreamhack as well.

 

[Lacrimosa]

TBH9's seeding is a bit weird.
For instance, while I really like Elegant's Luigi-play, I don't think 11th seed is all that deserving for him. He's surely a great player, however having a higher seed than zackray looks off. Of course, this way zackray is projected to play Tweek and that match didn't happen before, I think.

It feels a bit "sad" but Myst apparently has to play vs. BestNess which means that one character I actually like will be send into losers in that match and I think the player MU is fairly even. Both players do play Palutena as well, so maybe they go for Palu dittos instead of Zelda vs. Ness but we'll see. I hope it's the latter.

 

[Impax]

TBH9's seeding is a bit weird.
For instance, while I really like Elegant's Luigi-play, I don't think 11th seed is all that deserving for him. He's surely a great player, however having a higher seed than zackray looks off. Of course, this way zackray is projected to play Tweek and that match didn't happen before, I think.

It feels a bit "sad" but Myst apparently has to play vs. BestNess which means that one character I actually like will be send into losers in that match and I think the player MU is fairly even. Both players do play Palutena as well, so maybe they go for Palu dittos instead of Zelda vs. Ness but we'll see. I hope it's the latter.

Yeah elegant does seem over ranked. Love his play but it's so weird seeing cosmos all the way down at 20th

 

[blackghost]

Why exactly Corrin considered bad now? What's different about her here compared to Smash 4 that makes her almost consistently considered not good?

corrin is having bayo syndrome to the extreme. essentially everything is worse. every tool, every option, every playstyle. is corrin bad? honestly it's hard to tell but when a character gets gutted like that many players are discouraged to try and find out. particularly when other (easier) options exist.

Yeah elegant does seem over ranked. Love his play but it's so weird seeing cosmos all the way down at 20th

hasn't cosmos been gone for multiple months and only recently returned? he is placed fine imo.

 

[Megamang]

I promise people love you and need you in their lives. Find a place, everyone has one! If you want more please PM me, i'm sure you don't want this discussion on smashboards.


Never be afraid to reach out.

This got ninja'd, it was to Ziodyne 21

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja is in a really good place, has multiple strong relevant matchups, and has really strong results. He's been top 15 on Orion Stats for several months now.

But still, he doesn't really get considered when people talk about top tier characters. Even now, I see characters like Young Link, Shulk, and even more recently Sheik, even though he has substantially better results than all of them. It seems like if Venia or Stroder aren't swindling ur money at locals you probably don't think that highly of him.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Why exactly Corrin considered bad now? What's different about her here compared to Smash 4 that makes her almost consistently considered not good?

After looking into this a bit, Corrin's reasons for being worse are similar reasons to Marth, but Corrin arguably got hit worse due to being hit with much worse direct changes IMO. I will say that the biggest buff that Corrin received were the universal movement changes (shorter jump squad and faster speed attributes) which made it so she isn't as noticeably slow compared to everyone else.

• has some attacks that have sweetspots at the tip of his sword. Not as many as , but jab, up-tilt, f-smash, up-smash, down-smash, and pin all deal more damage at the tip of Corrin's sword. However, despite buffs to Corrin's movement, the new game engine's emphasis on aggressiveness harms Corrin as it is much harder for her to land tippers consistently on most characters.
• Pin (despite being very good still) is much laggier and much less safe to use. This was Corrin's best tool in Smash 4 and she did not receive enough compensation for this nerf in a similar manner to and 's nerfs.
• Corrin's counter went from being one of the strongest in the game to one of the weakest. It is also laggier.
• Most of Corrin's kill moves just as hard, if not harder to hit than they were in Smash 4. F-smash has worse hitboxes, down-smash has less knockback, and counter is weaker and has more lag.
• Uncharged neutral-b doesn't stun the opponent for as long and it is noticably worse at high percents because of this.
• Corrin's recovery loses momentum at the end of the move.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Why exactly Corrin considered bad now? What's different about her here compared to Smash 4 that makes her almost consistently considered not good?

To be quick about the things Corrin got nerfed in between 4 and Ultimate:

- FAir start-up increased (frame 7 -> 9)
- Non-fully charged Dragon Shot can barely combo into itself or other attacks anymore due to the paralysis effect lasting a much shorter duration.
- Pin kicks are much laggier and unsafe compared to Smash 4.
- Counter is weaker and is laggier.

Corrin is also hurt by some indirect nerfs as well:

- "Balloony" knockback hurts DTilt's combo potential, especially at higher percents
- Higher blast ceilings hurt UThrow and UAir's KO potential.
- Jostile mechanics makes Pin kicks even more unsafe.

She did get a few benefits though:

- FSmash charge hits loop much better.
- USmash is more powerful and has more range.
- Reduced landing lag improves the combo potential of her aerials by a ton, especially NAir, UAir, and FAir.
- She can now cancel her Pin manually, which really helps if her Pin attack whiffs.

I think what hurt Corrin's reputation the most is the improvements made to , , and to a lesser extent, , alongside the introduction of . While I still think she has a pretty decent niche as having both practical combo ability along with a massive disjoint, said niche feels more... "replaceable" compared to the likes of other lower tiered/underrepresented characters such as or .

Even if Corrin is likely better than someone like Kirby, Kirby's benefits (having a super low profile crouch and some of the most broken tilts in the game) are much harder to substitute for compared to Corrin's benefits (having combo-ability and a large disjoint, something Chrom is not too far off from).

As for , he's in a really good spot, but I think failing to break Top 8 at a major event recently is probably the biggest thing people use against him ( seems to be suffering the most from this, given his disproportionate OrionStats rankings vs. his placement on tier lists). It's probably why characters like , , or even are considered likely contenders for top tier before Greninja (though in Shulk's case, I'm pretty sure the "Shulk cheats" stigma is a pretty big contributing factor for a lot of players in terms of his placement on tier lists). That said, I really don't have any doubts that Jw or Lea can pull it off; it's just a matter of when.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Is this true?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Relatively uninteresting conversation, but this one caught me a bit off-guard, even though it's from a random twitter user.
Does anyone here follow Brood a bit closer and can shed some light into this? I know Brood wanted to play a bit of B&K but did he really drop PP?

 

[Impax]

hasn't cosmos been gone for multiple months and only recently returned? he is placed fine imo.

Yeah maybe I'm wrong but thought cosmos had been only gone a month.

 

[NotLiquid]

Cosmos was gone for a single month and returned with 17th/13th placings in back-to-back majors. What weighs him down in the seeding is presumably the fact that he had to DQ himself at 129th in Smash Con prior to his hiatus, as well as his 65th placing upset at EVO. I can see why machine based seeding would put him at 20th with that disparity.

That having been said, Elegant's seeding does strike me as a bit overvalued. If there's anyone's position that confuses me straight up it's WaDi. He's been batting a better average than both Elegant and Dark Wizzy. I don't know why he's not higher.

 

[TennisBall]

Forgive me for being ignorant and not reading some posts but judging by the seedings Mkleo is not going to the Big House 9??

 

[NotLiquid]

Forgive me for being ignorant and not reading some posts but judging by the seedings Mkleo is not going to the Big House 9??

He's in France this weekend for Ultimate Fighting Arena (along with Mr. R, Glutonny and Kameme).

 

[Lacrimosa]

Forgive me for being ignorant and not reading some posts but judging by the seedings Mkleo is not going to the Big House 9??

No, he's at the Ultimate Fighting Arena in France.
That's an A-tier event.
https://smash.gg/tournament/ultimat...uper-smash-bros-ultimate-single-1vs1/overview

Seeding is like this (only listing the top 20 because I'm too tired to look up the more unknown players :3).
1. MKLeo
2. Glutonny ()
3. Kameme ()
4. Mr. R
5. Meru ()
6. quiK
7. Space
8. Elexiao
9. S1
10. Oryon
11. MVL
12. Tru4
13. Flow
14. iStudying
15. Longo
16. Jeda
17. Greward
18. Peli
19. cyve
20. yetey

 

[TennisBall]

Also ESAM made an giant apology on Twitter about keeping his anger in check, did I miss something here?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Some information about the Japanese Wi-Fi ladder:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

(This tweet is a bit outdated)


So many hidden potential...

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think Beji () is actually the same guy that sent Mr. R to Losers early during Pools at Umebura SP5; he went on to get 49th place. In that regard, Mr. R being taken out as early as he did makes way more sense now given Beji's reputation in online play..

Surprising to see that out of all characters to be ranked #1, it's a .

...Okay, after looking at his Twitter, I'm not surprised anymore; Prand Grix has Link combos and bomb play down to freaking tee, yeesh.

 

[Impax]

No, he's at the Ultimate Fighting Arena in France.
That's an A-tier event.
https://smash.gg/tournament/ultimat...uper-smash-bros-ultimate-single-1vs1/overview

Seeding is like this (only listing the top 20 because I'm too tired to look up the more unknown players :3).
1. MKLeo
2. Glutonny ()
3. Kameme ()
4. Mr. R
5. Meru ()
6. quiK
7. Space
8. Elexiao
9. S1
10. Oryon
11. MVL
12. Tru4
13. Flow
14. iStudying
15. Longo
16. Jeda
17. Greward
18. Peli
19. cyve
20. yetey

I know Bighouse is going to overshadow this tournament but this is pretty stacked for a European tourney

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Tsu has a new tier list. Some hot takes here, but considering how different the Japanese meta is to America/Europe it makes sense.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Update on Smash Ultimate Summit 2

Samsora and Armada got in through the 10/1 voting phase, and ESAM got in through the 10/2 voting phase.
That is the end of the voting phase of the event.


For recap, this is who made it in:
MkLeo (Directly invited)
Tweek (Directly invited)
Nairo (Got 1st at Mainstage)
Marss (Got 3rd at Mainstage)
Light (Got 4th at Mainstage)
VoiD (Got 5th at Mainstage)
Tea (Got 5th at Mainstage)
MuteAce (Got 7th at Mainstage)
Leffen (Voted in 9/30)
RFang (Voted in 9/30)
Armada (Voted in 10/1)
Samsora (Voted in 10/1)
ESAM (Voted in 10/2)


That is 13 attendees out of 16. There are three more slots left available.
The two ways to get in:
1) The top 2 non-invited placers at The Big House 9.
2) The highest non-invited placer at 2GG: Nightmare at Smashville.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Update on Smash Ultimate Summit 2

Samsora and Armada got in through the 10/1 voting phase, and ESAM got in through the 10/2 voting phase.
That is the end of the voting phase of the event.


For recap, this is who made it in:
MkLeo (Directly invited)
Tweek (Directly invited)
Nairo (Got 1st at Mainstage)
Marss (Got 3rd at Mainstage)
Light (Got 4th at Mainstage)
VoiD (Got 5th at Mainstage)
Tea (Got 5th at Mainstage)
MuteAce (Got 7th at Mainstage)
Leffen (Voted in 9/30)
RFang (Voted in 9/30)
Armada (Voted in 10/1)
Samsora (Voted in 10/1)
ESAM (Voted in 10/2)


That is 13 attendees out of 16. There are three more slots left available.
The two ways to get in:
1) The top 2 non-invited placers at The Big House 9.
2) The highest non-invited placer at 2GG: Nightmare at Smashville.

I'm guessing Zackray and Shuton will get in through Big House 9.

 

[$.A.F.]

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Tsu has a new tier list. Some hot takes here, but considering how different the Japanese meta is to America/Europe it makes sense.

Plant above Mario and BOWSER?! Even I think that’s a cap. Still everyone has hot takes and I believe that’s more being too low than being too high. Still the ACs above the Earthbound Kids....

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Tsu has a new tier list. Some hot takes here, but considering how different the Japanese meta is to America/Europe it makes sense.

Trends I have noticed in most of these Pro Players tier lists over the past couple of weeks

Is apparently a top 5 character now. Was it becuase of Nairo's recent win at Mainstage? Becuase Palu has always gotten good resutls despite never winning a A/S tier major before then. I mean its a common habit with these kind of lists I guess but wow suddenly The Goddess of Light has gotten a lot more belivers.

Is either being placed in Top-tier or at least remarkable higher than in the past. The Robotic Operating Buddy has been getting some very good resutls as of late and has been climbing up on Orionstats. But I say je is likely around the upper end of high-tier

Not being in top-tier anymore. Come on man have people forgotten already how he can take ypu from 0-70% in like 3 seconds. He is still getting great results. Heck Shuton just won a stacked Japan tournent last week.

. Umm Okay.. This is is normally the part where I bring up the dead horse of a meme. But I have to admit Shulk has (finally) gotten some pretty notable results at major tournaments. So yeah he can have potential. But I to see of the resutls can stay consistent.

 

[TennisBall]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Tsu has a new tier list. Some hot takes here, but considering how different the Japanese meta is to America/Europe it makes sense.

That's one low placement of

 

[Hotcakes]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Tsu has a new tier list. Some hot takes here, but considering how different the Japanese meta is to America/Europe it makes sense.

below is a spicy hot take but probably not as spicy as that bottom 5 placement.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Some things I picked up about the list:

- 's and 's placements are a bit understandable given that Japan doesn't have a Stroder/Prodigy/Dark Wizzy, or a LeoN; that doesn't really change the fact that Mario and Bowser are placed absurdly low here.

- What's weird to me about the AC/Earthbound placements is the fact that and are placed right next to and respectively despite their wildly different playstyles. Does Tsu truly think they are on par with each other? That's a pretty hot take given how much Isabelle and Lucas have been lagging behind results-wise.


- 's high placement is a little bizarre given the only high-ranking G&W solo main in Japan is Notty (to my knowledge anywaya); I'm guessing Tsu's familiar with the Mexico scene?

 

[Rizen]

Trends I have noticed in most of these Pro Players tier lists over the past couple of weeks

Is apparently a top 5 character now. Was it becuase of Nairo's recent win at Mainstage? Becuase Palu has always gotten good resutls despite never winning a A/S tier major before then. I mean its a common habit with these kind of lists I guess but wow suddenly The Goddess of Light has gotten a lot more belivers.

Meanwhile 's 3rd on Orion rank, popping up multiple times in top 32s everywhere and people are saying she's worse than who has about a 3rd of her points.

I'm starting to think unless Leo or Tweek sweeps through everyone with them, some characters just won't get recognized.

^

Well Palu's finally getting the respect she deserves. Next up is Ness.

 

[Deleted member]

Well
And are the queens and kings of D tier.
It’s definitely a hot take to see Bayo snoop this low. Looks like the buffs and aid of her previous players (or what’s left of it) from Smash 4 still hasn’t made crazy stuff (outside of Salem’s secondary vs. )

Can (potentially) pull off some tricks but theory, results, and representation operates differently in Japan anyways.

 

[L9999]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Tsu has a new tier list. Some hot takes here, but considering how different the Japanese meta is to America/Europe it makes sense.

As much as his "potential" is a well known meme in the community, many mains of high-mid tier characters cite Shulk as one of their worst MUs, so there is some credibility to Shulk's power if he apparently dominates a good portion of the cast. Looking at Shulk at face value he has a gigantic sword and airdodges are no longer OP, so that is good for edgeguarding, dropdown Fair is a legit Shulk strategy. Shield Art is his get-out-of-jail card in plenty of MUs, he can keep decent pressure with Speed Art Fair walls, and his Up B has a giant hitbox that protects him from ledgetraps.

is fat, and for that reason he gets destroyed by , even if she is a very bad character. But the reason why R.O.B has remained relevant is how he neutralizes many characters with his toolkit, Gyro, laser, Fair, Uair, and DTilt are really good. Robot Arm is a pretty ridiculous kill move, he can ledgetrap and edgeguard pretty well, recovery is good, and being heavy brings R.O.B benefits against characters who can't quite kill.

A pair of early meta potatoes. Ike on paper is more promising, he has a big sword and a busted Nair, but his frame data and mobility are not very good, and his recovery is really abusable by many characters. Link I have 0 clue, he gets 49th at majors, hurray?

even less sure, he is slowly appearing but by C tier players in regional/local tournaments. Even back in Smash 4 spiraled down because none of his players were as good as ZeRo.

Mid tier hell seems about right, lots of characters that come and go, score decently, or have someone very good playing them. From there anddo not belong, they have been scoring very good at many events. doesn't belong there, he never does anything. don't belong there either, they are garbo IMO, they got a couple of "I cannot play Super Smash Bros." match ups.

Low tier are mostly characters very few people care about, some could be in mid tier hell but Tsu probably doesn't care they are in the game.

 

[TennisBall]

Is there any way to watch the stream in my free time of the Big House 9 so YouTube doesn't spoil the results for me again?

 

[Arthur97]

R.O.B. begin destroyed by Bayonetta should hardly be a factor not just because all of his good stuff, but who cares if they have a bad match up against a terrible fighter that rarely sees use?

 

[SwagGuy99]

is fat, and for that reason he gets destroyed by , even if she is a very bad character. But the reason why R.O.B has remained relevant is how he neutralizes many characters with his toolkit, Gyro, laser, Fair, Uair, and DTilt are really good. Robot Arm is a pretty ridiculous kill move, he can ledgetrap and edgeguard pretty well, recovery is good, and being heavy brings R.O.B benefits against characters who can't quite kill.

IMO, is actually pretty overrated and is probably only in the lower end of high tier. His matchup speard is all over the place IMO so while he may beat some characters pretty badly, he still (like you mentioned with and /) has some matchups where he literally can't play the game at times.
all have something in common: ROB can't contest with something that they have in their kit so they control the matchup. Better frame-data, better item play, great combos, a reflector, a better projectile game, good juggling tools, all of these characters have at least one of those qualities, and if they play the matchup right, ROB can't do much of anything in a lot of situations.

I'm not saying ROB has no strengths and no good matchups (because that isn't true) but ROB's weaknesses are probably the most exploitable of any character in high tier (that includes and ) so while he may dominate almost all of mid, low, and bottom tier, I feel like on paper, he has too much trouble against a lot of the meta-relevant characters to be that good of a character. Maybe people will prove me wrong, but I feel like we will see a decline in ROB's results in the coming months. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but ROB (like L9999 mentioned with and ) to me seems like a very early meta-character just like and who also rapidly declined on the tier lists once people started to figure them out.

TLDR: ROB will become irrelevent in the meta in the future due to having such a poor matchup spread against most of the meta-relevant characters.

 

[Arthur97]

You seem a little too certain for my tastes. R.O.B.'s fate is not set yet.

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, Sheik's considered high-tier now?
What a crazy world we live in. And meanwhile, Bowser still has to struggle to gain that reputation.

 

[Arthur97]

Like I said, people, or should I say pros, are much more willing to accept Sheik as high-tier over Bowser. Especially Bowser. He's a super heavy weight, and he's, well, Bowser.