Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[|RK|]

Fine, I'll actually talk about the character I wildly defended for half of v4.

Chrom has more advantages over Roy than just a consistent sword. His ledge pressure is better, thanks to having different animations on his ftilt and jab that cause them to hit below the ledge. Then there's the fact that he can convert basically any low % hit into a stock trade, which people have been figuring out ways around, but is still an immensely powerful option.

Even with those, there are still people who think Chrom is worse, and that people aren't exploiting his flaws enough (which they definitely aren't, whether or not he's better than Roy).

As far as Roy's kill power goes, he basically needed a read to kill. He had kill setups, but none were really reliable, and the few confirms he had were hard to, well, confirm. Side-B, which would've been a great kill move, didn't ****ing work, and Bair had terrible hitbox placements that made sweetspotting it prohibitively difficult. Fair didn't kill until like 150 if you were even slightly off of the ledge, and Dash Attack was way too linear to reliably catch people.



No, that proves nothing. The idea that Roy's design is fundamentally flawed existed long before Chrom did, and very much has and will carry over into perceptions of who the better character of the two is. If Chrom continues to be considered better than Roy, that just means that most people think Roy's design is fundamentally flawed, regardless of whether or not it actually is. In other words, it means nothing has changed.

While great to have, the differences at ledge and ability to stock trade aren't enough to make Chrom better IMO.

Chrom has the speed of a character that needs to get in, and the sword of a character that doesn't have to. This makes him vastly safer than Roy in pretty much any neutral interaction.

If you stay around Roy's tipper range, you can generally poke or keep him off of you. Chrom is going to be a threat, period.

When we had the Lucina/Marth debate in S4, despite (funny enough) Lucina also being able to hit lower and more consistently, it came down to tippers. In the end of S4, you could hardly compete without some sort of character-defining X-factor.

Marth's tippers - and the fact that he had ways to confirm into them - ended up tipping the balance for most people, though the characters ended up closer and closer together.

Here, we have less need (so far) for an X-Factor - just some way to close a stock in general. Chrom is going to win neutral more often than Roy, and can play at more ranges.

...

All that said, depending on how the meta goes for brawlers/grapplers, I can see Roy improving. In this meta, though, I don't think he's particularly great. A brawler with the frame data of a sword character is rarely an amazing combination.

But I could be wrong.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I do not see an argument here.

Just people saying the same thing in different ways.

Roy is strong. Chrom is stronger.

Done.

 

[Fastblade5035]

I don't understand you guys. In what way are you guys playing Link to believe that Remote Bombs are worse than his original bombs when they offer him better edgeguarding, shield pressure, kill confirms, and stage control. Link's remote bombs give him way more options and mixups now. Izaw showcases a lot of that in this video.

I'm no expert, so obviously I'm not Izaw level, but I have played Link extensively since 4 and followed Izaw intensively since Brawl as well.
I have no issue saying Remote bombs are better for edgeguarding and stage control. What I am saying is they alter Link's playstyle in a way that he isn't best suited to take on. Link's old bombs helped his slow, lacking frame data with how simple and fast they were. Reliable as well. The Remote bombs are probably better in a lot of areas, but Link would use the Remote bombs to much better success if he had Young Link or Toon Link's speed and frame data. I don't deny he has a lot of setups and such with Remote bombs, I just don't think Link will have much chance to get off all these remote setups once people learn his MU and discover that Link as a whole has gained a lot more weaknesses, some even from having the Remote bomb to begin with.

 

[NotLiquid]

Three Fox players in Let's Make Moves Top 8. Now I know why the Melee players are so interested in this game!

In all seriousness, this character really isn't moving from that Smash 4 top tier spot anytime soon despite the survivability nerfs.

 

[J0eyboi]

While great to have, the differences at ledge and ability to stock trade aren't enough to make Chrom better IMO.

Chrom has the speed of a character that needs to get in, and the sword of a character that doesn't have to. This makes him vastly safer than Roy in pretty much any neutral interaction.

If you stay around Roy's tipper range, you can generally poke or keep him off of you. Chrom is going to be a threat, period.

When we had the Lucina/Marth debate in S4, despite (funny enough) Lucina also being able to hit lower and more consistently, it came down to tippers. In the end of S4, you could hardly compete without some sort of character-defining X-factor.

Marth's tippers - and the fact that he had ways to confirm into them - ended up tipping the balance for most people, though the characters ended up closer and closer together.

Here, we have less need (so far) for an X-Factor - just some way to close a stock in general. Chrom is going to win neutral more often than Roy, and can play at more ranges.

Nothing about Roy's design actually prevents him from playing at tipper range. The only real differences are damage and kill power, and the damage differences are pretty minor. The kill power differences can occasionally be problematic, but given that Roy has plenty of ways to set up or confirm kills from tipper range, that also matters less than you'd think. Roy doesn't need to get in any more than Chrom does, as getting just about any hit is a free ticket to sweetspot city anyway.

Also,

If you stay around Roy's tipper range, you can generally poke or keep him off of you.

How do you plan to do either of these things? For starters, staying around Roy's tipper range isn't often feasible. He's one of the fastest characters in the game, has a great dash dance with which to mix up his spacing, and has enough burst options with variable ranges that there is no one range for you to try and space around. Even if you could somehow always stay in his tipper range, trying to maintain that spacing will just give him stage control - and Roy loves stage control.

Second of all, Roy is a sword character. The only way for you to try and poke him if you actually plan to hit and are not also a sword character is to put a hurtbox inside his sweetspot range.

The bottom line is that having a consistent sword does not help Chrom in significantly more matchups, or even more at all, than having a less exploitable recovery helps Roy. They're not so different as to make Chrom a top tier while Roy "isn't great."

 

[Rizen]

I don't understand you guys. In what way are you guys playing Link to believe that Remote Bombs are worse than his original bombs when they offer him better edgeguarding, shield pressure, kill confirms, and stage control. Link's remote bombs give him way more options and mixups now. Izaw showcases a lot of that in this video.

The only thing I agree with is they're better for edge guarding. For the sake of comparing in-game bombs I'll use YL's as an example of "normal bombs". Remote bombs kill power is inferior to normal bomb>Fair's kill power. With remote bombs you get a trap that deals 8% and has no followups; it takes 12f to detonate one with 39 total frames for the action. That's 27f of lag before Link can begin to act. Sure you can launch opponents into remote bombs but that's still only 8% extra damage and a lot harder to coordinate than normal>Usmash/Fair. With normal bombs you get a zoning tool that applies a lot of pressure because bombs beat normal attacks and deal 11%+Usmash for 28% total. You can act before normals even hit.

Say Chrom's coming at you; holding a remote bomb doesn't help the situation; he SH attack without fear. If you're holding a normal he has to respect it. Say Chrom's launched you up in the air; pulling a remote bomb doesn't deter him from jumping and Uair-ing you. Pull a normal and he could eat the explosion and then a Dair. I've said about SSB4 Link that without bombs his disadvantage state would be on par with Ganon's. Fox is pressuring your shield, remotes don't help; they have no timer and will always hurt Link when exploding. Normals explode in a few seconds meaning he must keep his distance or you throw the bomb OoS and combo into Usmash. You're caught in a multi hit jab, dancing blade etc, remotes do nothing; normals interrupt. Villager/Isabelle is camping you, they pocket remote bombs and you lose access to them. They pocket normal bombs and you can toss more out. The opponent's above you; you throw a remote up and either get 8% detonating it or they airdodge and you have 27 frames of lag. Throw a normal up and they can eat 11% and be in the same situation or AD and you can chase with an Uair.

Normal's timer and not hurting you with their explosions makes a lot of difference in utility. Remote bombs force you to act to be threatening while normals threaten on their own. You can have twice as many normals on screen and still plant them or throw one up to create a wall so they're not bad for stage control.

I'm not saying remote bombs are bad; they're basically a much better Din's fire. For ledge trapping, intercepting recoveries and trapping in general they're great. Remotes are great in advantage. But normals help neutral and disadvantage; areas Link desperately needs help in.

 

[Ginsai]

After playing WFT for a while, and watching (the very few) videos I could find here are my (more full) opinions. Didn't play the character in 4 so I don't know what has changed.

PROS

• Seems to do well in an advantage state, UAIR and BAIR come out very quick and NAIR combos itself itself.
• Deep Breathing is an incredible tool, but is very irritating to land in online, which is probably one of the biggest reasons why people don't use the character online.
• High combo potential, up to kill level, has a large amount of kill confirms.
• Decent projectiles for harassment.
• Decent tilts, movement and dash make ground play viable.
• Can rack up damage very quickly.
• Hitboxes were improved a lot.

CONS

• Slow falling speed (outside of deep breathing) makes the character combo food.
• Doesn't deal well in disadvantage state, her good aerials (mentioned above) don't hit characters below her and her floatiness makes escaping harder.
• Offstage play is much harder than Smash 4 due to ledge options.
• FAIR still has an odd hitbox, you have to get used to it, BAIR is a better option almost always.
• Grab options are poor, though BTHROW is a kill move and DTHROW can combo into BAIR.

Feels better than a lot of people are saying, but it's hard to judge from online play. The input delay online makes me miss Deep Breathing a lot and I'm not the only one with this problem (watching other people play her and they say the same thing).
Unfortunately I don't think she's ever going to get a lot of play unless a top player, so she's going to sit where she is right now.

Does fair>fair>side b work?

 

[Untouch]

Does fair>fair>side b work?

I don't think so, fair is pretty bad at the moment, nair > side b does work though.

 

[Ginsai]

I don't think so, fair is pretty bad at the moment, nair > side b does work though.

Hmm I’ve been able to pull it off once though. The opponent probably didn’t DI.

 

[|RK|]

Nothing about Roy's design actually prevents him from playing at tipper range. The only real differences are damage and kill power, and the damage differences are pretty minor. The kill power differences can occasionally be problematic, but given that Roy has plenty of ways to set up or confirm kills from tipper range, that also matters less than you'd think. Roy doesn't need to get in any more than Chrom does, as getting just about any hit is a free ticket to sweetspot city anyway.

Also,



How do you plan to do either of these things? For starters, staying around Roy's tipper range isn't often feasible. He's one of the fastest characters in the game, has a great dash dance with which to mix up his spacing, and has enough burst options with variable ranges that there is no one range for you to try and space around. Even if you could somehow always stay in his tipper range, trying to maintain that spacing will just give him stage control - and Roy loves stage control.

Second of all, Roy is a sword character. The only way for you to try and poke him if you actually plan to hit and are not also a sword character is to put a hurtbox inside his sweetspot range.

The bottom line is that having a consistent sword does not help Chrom in significantly more matchups, or even more at all, than having a less exploitable recovery helps Roy. They're not so different as to make Chrom a top tier while Roy "isn't great."

The thing is... I'm not sure how any of these things are different from any of the games Roy has been in. His sourspots - even with confirms or psuedo confirms - have always been a negative due to how he's forced to play neutral.

Does Roy want to hit shields with his tippers now?

And, genuine question: what are Roy's tipper confirms in this game?

 

[Ajani]

Is there a possibility that Ivysaur Dair may get nerfed? With the pokemon switches it seems amazing. Demitus PT is putting on a pretty good showcase despite his loss. While the startup for Dair Frames are not to hot but it used as an amazing spike. The counter argument maybe that pokemon swtiches is what is enabling it.

 

[Lavani]

11f is actually disgustingly fast for a spike, let alone a massive, powerful one.

 

[Lancerech]

The thing is... I'm not sure how any of these things are different from any of the games Roy has been in. His sourspots - even with confirms or psuedo confirms - have always been a negative due to how he's forced to play neutral.

Does Roy want to hit shields with his tippers now?

And, genuine question: what are Roy's tipper confirms in this game?

Roy tipper confirms are mostly off of aerials, but they're somewhat insignificant. Tipper Fair will combo into tipper Fair at mid percents but it's more like a consolation prize, tipper Dair will get combos into Usmash at mid percents. The only big one is Up Air, which combos into Fsmash for a long time and has a reasonable hitbox, but it's difficult to aim for in an actual battle, even if the hitbox is somewhat generous. I'm not sure exactly how far Roy will go in the first place, but it makes me wonder if Roy players will need to develop a strong gimping game to justify using him over Chrom. He can go a lot deeper offstage than Chrom can, but his offstage game was never good in the first place either.

 

[KakuCP9]

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and say that Sheik is very good simply due to this tech

Not sure if this is new tech, but if u jump before u land while using a charging neutral B, itll cancel and let you act out immediately on the ground
Characters confirmed to work:
-Samus/Dsamus
-DK
-M2
-Lucario
-Robin
-Pac
-Kirby w/ abilities
-Sheik
-WFT#SSBU_TECH pic.twitter.com/nqTmL0AO7G

— SilentDrumr (@silentdrumr) December 27, 2018

You see D-Samus instantly running from her landing neutral special or throwing out buttons. Imagine Sheik doing run-up tilts (that convert into nice damage at low risk) out of charging a fast projectile that can check characters mid-range and also be used in combos. In that earlier Wizzrobe match, instead trying to hit Ryo with f-tilt while he was on the platform, Wiz could have full-hopped, charge needles and immediately after landing then grab, throw out a tilt/aerial or even throw the needles giving him much more options to stay in control of the match. I feel like the notion of Sheik being bad is akin how new players feel attacks aren't punishable in this game since you're trying to do the same things that worked in the previous game that don't work now instead of using the current tools. Instead using grab->combo, use d-tilt/f-tilt -> drag down u-air into either weak nair->f-smash or f-tilt-> tipper U-Smash (seriously, her dash-canceled tilts are super good). Hell, there's some RAR b-air stuff being found as well to give her even more kill-confirms. Not to mention how f-air is a sick OOS option and can still string into itself or needles at low/mid percents. I honestly think with the new tech and new confirms, she still has what she needs to compete and then some.

 

[J0eyboi]

The thing is... I'm not sure how any of these things are different from any of the games Roy has been in.

You're right, it's not very different. With the exception of Melee, where crouch cancelling was a thing and Roy's sourspots had next to no hitstun, Roy has always had much bigger limiting factors than his sword. In 4, he couldn't approach well and struggled to kill; in PM, his recovery and disadvantage were awful (disclaimer: I know very little about PM).

Does Roy want to hit shields with his tippers now?

The opposite, actually. In 4, Roy couldn't really space in such a way that he would hit with the sweetspot and still be safe, unless he crossed up. Now, Roy is so safe that it doesn't even matter. He can hit wherever the hell and get away with it.

And, genuine question: what are Roy's tipper confirms in this game?

Sour Uair combos into anything you want it to, really. Sour Fair and Bair combo into all the same things normal Fair and Bair do, just with different % windows. Sour Nair 1 is basically the same as sweet Nair 1. Sour Side-B combos into sweet Side-B (which kills insanely early). And while sour Jab and Dtilt don't confirm into anything, both force techs at high %.

 

[Ajani]

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and say that Sheik is very good simply due to this tech

Not sure if this is new tech, but if u jump before u land while using a charging neutral B, itll cancel and let you act out immediately on the ground
Characters confirmed to work:
-Samus/Dsamus
-DK
-M2
-Lucario
-Robin
-Pac
-Kirby w/ abilities
-Sheik
-WFT#SSBU_TECH pic.twitter.com/nqTmL0AO7G

— SilentDrumr (@silentdrumr) December 27, 2018

You see D-Samus instantly running from her landing neutral special or throwing out buttons. Imagine Sheik doing run-up tilts (that convert into nice damage at low risk) out of charging a fast projectile that can check characters mid-range and also be used in combos. In that earlier Wizzrobe match, instead trying to hit Ryo with f-tilt while he was on the platform, Wiz could have full-hopped, charge needles and immediately after landing then grab, throw out a tilt/aerial or even throw the needles giving him much more options to stay in control of the match. I feel like the notion of Sheik being bad is akin how new players feel attacks aren't punishable in this game since you're trying to do the same things that worked in the previous game that don't work now instead of using the current tools. Instead using grab->combo, use d-tilt/f-tilt -> drag down u-air into either weak nair->f-smash or f-tilt-> tipper U-Smash (seriously, her dash-canceled tilts are super good). Hell, there's some RAR b-air stuff being found as well to give her even more kill-confirms. Not to mention how f-air is a sick OOS option and can still string into itself or needles at low/mid percents. I honestly with the new tech and new confirms, she still has what she needs to compete and then some.

Say you're a Lucario main, would this tech not help Force palm as a Kill option?

 

[Tesh]

Is there a character that is a confirmed hard counter to a majority of sword characters AND projectile? Im just debating what may be an Anti-Meta pick that people may decide to pocket.

I think Mii Swordsman fits this description. Has enough range to contend with swordies, but also a couple of very good projectiles and a good reflector.

 

[Avokha]

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and say that Sheik is very good simply due to this tech

Not sure if this is new tech, but if u jump before u land while using a charging neutral B, itll cancel and let you act out immediately on the ground
Characters confirmed to work:
-Samus/Dsamus
-DK
-M2
-Lucario
-Robin
-Pac
-Kirby w/ abilities
-Sheik
-WFT#SSBU_TECH pic.twitter.com/nqTmL0AO7G

— SilentDrumr (@silentdrumr) December 27, 2018

You see D-Samus instantly running from her landing neutral special or throwing out buttons. Imagine Sheik doing run-up tilts (that convert into nice damage at low risk) out of charging a fast projectile that can check characters mid-range and also be used in combos. In that earlier Wizzrobe match, instead trying to hit Ryo with f-tilt while he was on the platform, Wiz could have full-hopped, charge needles and immediately after landing then grab, throw out a tilt/aerial or even throw the needles giving him much more options to stay in control of the match. I feel like the notion of Sheik being bad is akin how new players feel attacks aren't punishable in this game since you're trying to do the same things that worked in the previous game that don't work now instead of using the current tools. Instead using grab->combo, use d-tilt/f-tilt -> drag down u-air into either weak nair->f-smash or f-tilt-> tipper U-Smash (seriously, her dash-canceled tilts are super good). Hell, there's some RAR b-air stuff being found as well to give her even more kill-confirms. Not to mention how f-air is a sick OOS option and can still string into itself or needles at low/mid percents. I honestly with the new tech and new confirms, she still has what she needs to compete and then some.

D1 made a video about, i believe he dubbed it "Ground to Air Charge Cancel" or GACC for short.

...Although there is actually a simpler way of acting out of grounded charge moves like what GACC does. Quickly tapping shield will actually return the character to idle without putting up shield, letting them do basically anything out of grounded charging on frame 1. Much easier than having to land and input an action within 3 frames or else misinputing a jump lol

 

[J0eyboi]

...Although there is actually a simpler way of acting out of grounded charge moves like what GACC does. Quickly tapping shield will actually return the character to idle without putting up shield, letting them do basically anything out of grounded charging on frame 1. Much easier than having to land and input an action within 3 frames or else misinputing a jump lol

That only works for specific characters, by which I mean only Samus and Damus afaik. It was also a thing with Sheik in 4, but it seems to be gone for her.

 

[KakuCP9]

Say you're a Lucario main, would this tech not help Force palm as a Kill option?

More or less. If you land ASC on someone's shield, you get a dirty mixup where you can suddenly cancel ASC and go into side-b grab while they're in shield (they can avoid this spotdodge or grab, but dodge gets beaten by the side-b projectile and grab by u-tilt that can lead to u-air kills).

 

[Avokha]

That only works for specific characters, by which I mean only Samus and Damus afaik. It was also a thing with Sheik in 4, but it seems to be gone for her.

I know it works for robin too, i labbed out some applications for it myself today in fact. Pretty sure anyone with a storable charge based move can do it (there could be a few exceptions though, like maybe Mario's FLUDD).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think Mii Swordsman fits this description. Has enough range to contend with swordies, but also a couple of very good projectiles and a good reflector.

Wouldn't call him a hard counter for sure. I like the character, toying around with making him a secondary, but he's still going to get blown up by Chrom most likely. Doesn't have any good "get off me" buttons outside of his counter being probably the best counter in the game (but still has its problems), projectiles are too slow to deal with Chrom's speed.

The kill confirms Swordfighter has are stupid good yes, but that doesn't really help him much against most of the swordies. That's not the issue.

Frankly I'm doubtful there's a character that has winning match-ups against all of the swordies and and the projectile characters that are worth worrying about. Chrom/Roy play differently from Ike, and at least a bit differently from Marth/Lucina and certainly differently from Cloud. And all of them in turn play differently from the Belmonts, who play differently from the Pits, and differently from the Links.

Simply too large of range of different playing styles in that list and I could add more to it realistically. Either pick your poison or learn a small group of characters instead of just one.

 

[Ajani]

Simply too large of range of different playing styles in that list and I could add more to it realistically. Either pick your poison or learn a small group of characters instead of just one.

I think this is the scary part of someone new looking into this competitively. While its great to have a main, it feels like its so beneficial to have a pocket main that can counter the counter (weirdly worded I apologize). So far everyone is a 'safe' main but learning multiple heroes requires a whole new time investment than previous games Ive noticed. Are there characters that transition well to other characters besides the echoes?

Like I come from a competitive Overwatch background. If I was solid with tracking that means I could transition into Tracer, Soldier and Zarya.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Are there characters that transition well to other characters besides the echoes?

Generally speaking, if you have a character that relies heavily on fundamentals, you can transition into most other characters that rely heavily on fundamentals. You still need to learn their specific combos, recovery options, tricks, etc etc but I'd imagine that picking up a set of say (randomly pulling up examples, don't crucify me if I'm way off base): Ike, Pit/Dark Pit, and Mario is probably easier than trying to learn Inkling, Snake, and Shulk.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Guess I'm gonna be the one to first mention Tweek's convincing showing with Wario.

Character's pretty potent now that he's got good reward alongside waft!

 

[Lord Dio]

basic summary of Let's Make moves top 8:
3 palutenas, 3 foxes,
dk, wario
olimar
peach
and a zss
pretty niteresting tbh

 

[Tesh]

Wouldn't call him a hard counter for sure. I like the character, toying around with making him a secondary, but he's still going to get blown up by Chrom most likely. Doesn't have any good "get off me" buttons outside of his counter being probably the best counter in the game (but still has its problems), projectiles are too slow to deal with Chrom's speed.

The kill confirms Swordfighter has are stupid good yes, but that doesn't really help him much against most of the swordies. That's not the issue.

Frankly I'm doubtful there's a character that has winning match-ups against all of the swordies and and the projectile characters that are worth worrying about. Chrom/Roy play differently from Ike, and at least a bit differently from Marth/Lucina and certainly differently from Cloud. And all of them in turn play differently from the Belmonts, who play differently from the Pits, and differently from the Links.

Simply too large of range of different playing styles in that list and I could add more to it realistically. Either pick your poison or learn a small group of characters instead of just one.

I wouldn't go as far as calling anything a hard counter yet, but I just think swordfighter has the range and zoning game to contest all the swordsmen and zoners in neutral. What happens after he gets hit is another story, but I think his punish game and gimp game (at least vs linear recoveries), should be able to match what chrom and Roy could do to him.

 

[L9999]

It's fascinating how the opinions have developed.

From "Fox is the worst" to "Fox is top tier"

From "Bayo is still broken & best in the game" to "maybe still good(?)"

The fact that a "Fox sucks" age existed at all baffles me. He was destined to be top tier as soon as they revealed the nerfed defensive options and the running mechanics. Still waiting on the tier 0 age of Pikachu, Belmont, and K Rool.

 

[Minordeth]

Everyone for the first three weeks:

“Oh my god! Chrom is so good! Inkling is broken! Palutena is top tier! Everyone is so good! Wow!”


“Oh?”

“Sonic is still in this game? Lol guess he can’t spin to win anymore.”

And then KEN proceeds to steamroll through Midwest Mayhem.

 

[Ajani]

Everyone for the first three weeks:

“Oh my god! Chrom is so good! Inkling is broken! Palutena is top tier! Everyone is so good! Wow!”


“Oh?”

“Sonic is still in this game? Lol guess he can’t spin to win anymore.”

And then KEN proceeds to steamroll through Midwest Mayhem.

I mean who said that? Sonic has had dece tournament results.

 

[Ffamran]

So, apparently heavyweights have 3 active frame grabs. Also, Fox's standing and pivot grabs have 3 active frames because why not.

Forgot to put Incineroar's name but he also has 3 frames.
Ike and Simon/Richter has same weight as Wario and Ridley but they has only 2 frames. https://t.co/6oOGv5DIjB

— Meshima (@Meshima_) December 30, 2018

And on the subject of grabs.

Decided to check grabs data and seems they made most characters have 2 grabboxes, one for grounded opponents and one for aerial opponents
Grabbox for aerial opponents is smaller than the one for grounded opponents (red = grounded, green = aerial) pic.twitter.com/hqsgZC24vv

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) December 30, 2018

 

[Minordeth]

I mean who said that? Sonic has had dece tournament results.

Twitter/Reddit.

It was a common sentiment pre-release and the relative silence on Sonic from top players that caused him to fly way under the radar.

So, apparently heavyweights have 3 active frame grabs. Also, Fox's standing and pivot grabs have 3 active frames because why not.

Forgot to put Incineroar's name but he also has 3 frames.
Ike and Simon/Richter has same weight as Wario and Ridley but they has only 2 frames. https://t.co/6oOGv5DIjB

— Meshima (@Meshima_) December 30, 2018

And on the subject of grabs.

Decided to check grabs data and seems they made most characters have 2 grabboxes, one for grounded opponents and one for aerial opponents
Grabbox for aerial opponents is smaller than the one for grounded opponents (red = grounded, green = aerial) pic.twitter.com/hqsgZC24vv

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) December 30, 2018

#Foxprivilege

Also, I've apparently been playing Falco neutral too much like Smash 4. Dtilt is +3 to 0 on shield depending on where it hits. Like, wtf is that.

Speaking of spacies, Zackray picking up Wolf and beating KEN from winners a couple weeks ago bodes fairly well for the character, despite some mixed reception over on in the West. Wolf seems to control neutral like few other characters.

 

[Ffamran]

Also, I've apparently been playing Falco neutral too much like Smash 4. Dtilt is +3 to 0 on shield depending on where it hits. Like, wtf is that.

I don't see anything wrong with playing Ultimate Falco's neutral like Smash 4 Falco's, but I have no idea how you're playing his neutral other than using his Dtilt which is still a good move.

Falco's Dtilt does 13% up close, 12% for its middle hitbox, and 10.5% for its tipper hitbox. It has 20 recovery frames, so while it is slower on startup in Ultimate compared to in Smash 4, Brawl, and Melee, its recovery is more or less the same as in the previous games. Without IASA, Brawl and Melee Dtilt had 21 recovery frames. With it, Brawl had 18 and Melee had 19 which is the same as Smash 4's recovery.

Speaking of Falco, I checked to see if the Japanese frame data spreadsheet by Meshima, drafix570, and gengar6tomo had some updates and according to them, Falco's Dair spike hitbox lasts for 5 frames. That's 1 frame more than 1.0.8 Smash 4 Dair, 2 more frames than Brawl, and 5 less than Melee's: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=609586896.

I don't think Falco's Dair clean hitbox has a sourspot considering it never did in any of the other games which if that's the case in Ultimate means it's straight up is a frame 10, 5 active frames spike. That's gross to say the least when you have characters with frame +14 spikes that last 2-3 frames or Diddy's Dair in Smash 4 and I'm guessing Brawl which only had 1 active frame because reasons. Fortunately, Diddy's Dair now has 2 active frames according to spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=824127703.

Also, Falco's Up Smash still kept its 1.0.8 change of having no frame gaps between its hits and has its stupidly high invincibility frames from 1.1.4. 12 frames in this game which is 2 less than in Smash 4.

 

[Minordeth]

Falco's Dtilt does 13% up close, 12% for its middle hitbox, and 10% for its tipper hitbox. It has 20 recovery frames, so while it is slower on startup in Ultimate compared to in Smash 4, Brawl, and Melee, its recovery is more or less the same as in the previous games. Without IASA, Brawl and Melee Dtilt had 21 recovery frames. With it, Brawl had 18 and Melee had 19 which is the same as Smash 4's recovery.

Speaking of Falco, I checked to see if the Japanese frame data spreadsheet by Meshima, drafix570, and gengar6tomo for some updates and according to them, Falco's Dair spike hitbox lasts for 5 frames. That's 1 frame more than 1.0.8 Smash 4 Dair, 2 more frames than Brawl, and 5 less than Melee's: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...X3IM7-mnbdG6eE/htmlview?usp=sharing&sle=true#.

Also, Falco's Up Smash still kept its 1.0.8 change of having no frame gaps between its hits and has its stupidly high invincibility frames from 1.1.4. 12 frames in this game which is 2 less than in Smash 4.

I don't think Falco's Dair has a sourspot, so it straight up is a frame 10, 5 active frames spike. That's gross to say the least when you have characters with +14 spikes that last 2-3 frames or Diddy's Dair in Smash 4 and I'm guessing Brawl which only had 1 active frame because reasons. Fortunately, Diddy's Dair now has 2 active frames according to spreadsheet.

Yeah, the downside is that his Usmash lacks that horizontal hitbox, which makes it more of a true anti-air and less useful at the ledge. Although, apparently reverse Utilt consistently autolinks so that makes another work around for bad programming.

When I think of the spacies, I have a fairly easy time placing Fox and Wolf, in terms of functioning. Falco seems to occupy some bizarro middle ground between control of neutral pacing and hilarious advantage state. I think all the spacies do okay against swordies, especially the FE cast, as the latter all have poor landing options and share most of the casts' weakness with getting edge guarded hard.

The real question is, who wins the Spacie Civil War? From a Reddit/Twitter standpoint, Fox would seem to be the clear favorite on paper against Wolf and Falco, but I think it probably goes somewhat even between the three.

...

On the subject of a character that is good anti-projectile and anti-swordie, I submit Zelda, sort of. She has dumb active hitboxes which are relatively safe, and can control the stage fairly well with Phantom, limiting reckless jump ins, has a long lasting reflector and a controllable, useful projectile. She can also return from anywhere fairly easily, and her tipper hits are much easier to hit, which makes them rather threatening given jumping aerials OOS.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Dabbling with stuff in Ruben's calculator and some hands-on play has made me look at a particular element in a new light, thanks to the new shield mechanics. Out-of-shield options are more important than ever before now, and it should be considered a necessity to being a "full-kit" character. With the new shield mechanics preventing players from simply grabbing OoS as a punish, and the amount of lag and time needed to use a grounded move OoS, bar U-Smash and Up-B, having access to these moves will make or break a character moreso than ever, especially since it is one of the few avenues for a character to punish a move from a shielding position, bar parrying.

Watching the various Palutena players in LMM use N-Air OoS and Tweek's Wario with N-Air and F-Air, Dabuz using Olimar U-Smash to punish landing N-Airs, and various Up-Bs like Marcina, Bowser, and such, especially with the shield option select available to them, its one of the few, yet strong ways to punish senseless jump-ins and such. Even having something like a frame 7 aerial move is good in the case of creating a scenario where the attacker and the defender have an RPS position where either side can win, though the offense has the frame advantage, if that makes sense (unless you are facing someone with a fast, big Up-B like Marcina or Bowser).

Obviously, spacing can stack that RPS even more into the offense's favor, and sometimes with AC and how strong a move may be in terms of strength, speed, and endlag (Cloud B-Air fresh comes to mind), it can lead the defense to be forced to anticipate and react to multiple follow-ups, which is just not good at all. This is likely another reason why Sakurai decided to nerf shieldstun by aerials, which is a good call. It rewards smart play and good use of moves and centers about the mindgames between offense and defense. It's something I personally like. In short, OoS options are very strong in a game of this caliber.

Also, another little tidbit found yesterday is on spotdodges. The frame you can cancel your spotdodge animation into an attack seems to be character-dependent. Will be looking more into that later.

 

[Iridium]

From what I've seen, definitely does struggle to kill a bit, although that's not new to his character, but from watching KEN, I don't think I've ever seen Homing Attack follow-ups before. So many Spin Dashes into Homing Attack just work now for racking up damage.

I don't often see a lot of people say Sonic is garbage, but I'm aware of that crowd existing, and I don't get it.

Even if he can't cancel Spin Dash with shield, he can immediately jump and directional airdodge into the ground instead, and it's pretty quick for what it is. Maybe it's not any more effective, but he has something. Not surprising that this is talked about the most for him, but that does not mean this is all he had going for him.

As for weaknesses, lower weight does mean worse endurance, although that should make him somewhat harder to combo. His Spring is not really usable anymore to extend any sort of [ladder] combo. And his kill power is a bit lacking, but b-air, f-smash, u-smash, and even f-air offstage are available.

He still has good combo tools with n-air (into b-air, u-air, etc.), Spin Dash (into Homing Attack, n-air, etc.), perhaps even d-tilt as well, and this is not all.

If anything, I think Sonic is still really good, and even if he has not proven himself to be a very dominant character yet, that does not mean he cannot be successful. Besides, it's a bit too early in the meta to decide what characters are definitively weak anyway.

 

[webbedspace]

Having watched recent Bayonetta footage it seems obvious to me she's now just Noisy Sheik. Don't be fooled by how intact her ABK combos appear, or that downward ABK is back as a combo starter: the dismal damage output says it all. The familiar-looking KOs with offstage Bullet Climax, down-air spikes, back-air, Witch Time or f-smash in neutral are exactly as toothless as Sheik's equally familiar offstage Bouncing Fish and smashes in neutral. It bums me out a lot because I love both characters' common archetype of "high-combo low-power brawler", but it simply doesn't work anymore.

 

[Nobie]

Watching Ken's Sonic vs. Pichu yesterday, I don't think it's just Sonic that can time Pichu out. I actually believe that Pichu has an inherent weakness to getting timed out due to the self-damage aspect, and it doesn't necessarily take the Fastest Character in the Game to pull this off. If Pichu IS top tier, you're likely going to see him get timed out more often than a lot of other characters.

 

[Ffamran]

Yeah, the downside is that his Usmash lacks that horizontal hitbox, which makes it more of a true anti-air and less useful at the ledge. Although, apparently reverse Utilt consistently autolinks so that makes another work around for bad programming.

With its high active frames, it's still useful for covering ledge getup and out of shield Up Smash probably works for ledge attacks. It's just not good for ledge rolls compared to Smash 4 Up Smash. Maybe it could work if you use Up Smash facing away from the ledge, but then you lose being able to cover ledge getup and ledge attack because of Ultimate Up Smash's much shorter horizontal range.

As an anti-air, I think it's a better "opponent is above me" anti-air compared to Smash 4 Up Smash being more flexible in catching people above, below, and behind. If Smash 4 Up Smash was a circle, then Ultimate Up Smash is more like an oval with the lengthier side pointing up. In that regard, I think Smash 4 Up Smash is a better anti-air because of its coverage compared to Ultimate's. Vertically is where Ultimate Up Smash wins not just in reach, but I also think because of how long its second hit lingers above him. With Smash 4 Up Smash being a front flip, Falco's always in motion leaving less time for him to linger which would be weird. That said, because of how long the second hit is active and him slowing down a bit near the end, the second hit does linger behind him a bit. In Ultimate, it's two high kicks where the second kick begins on frame 13 and on frame 14, he's already kicking above him. The 4 remaining active frames have to be somewhere and Falco barely moves his leg after frame 14. If frame 14 is 12 o'clock, then frame 18 is like 11 o'clock.

Utilt's first hit sends the opponent into Falco, so hitting with the front or back should work. In both Brawl and Smash 4, it has three hitboxes of 100 degree angles where Smash 4 has one that is 106 and both games also have a fourth hitbox on the first hit that sends the opponent straight down, 270 degrees, to pull them into the second hit. It's only when you're clipping with Utilt or hitting at odd places that Utilt's second hit will whiff. Utilt is also another option for ledge getup as it has high active frames.

Also, if you want to see some Falco Up Smash anti-air shenanigans, Lunamado abused it against Rido's Link several times.

11/29/2018 Edit: As with 1.1.4 Smash 4 Up Smash, the new Up Smash in Ultimate has leg invincibility for all its active frames, but where it lost in horizontal range, especially behind him, I think it's vertical range is much higher since Falco jumps up more than in Smash 4. Animation-wise, like other most other moves, it keeps his hurtbox away from his hitboxes. In Smash 4, Falco's body was mostly below him during Up Smash while in Ultimate, it looks they kept his body behind his kicks. Both moves do start with Falco turning and leaning his body towards the ground before doing a frontflip in Smash 4 and a jumping tornado kick to roundhouse in Ultimate, so it does have some low profiling. Anyway, Ultimate's Up Smash is probably just as good of an anti-air when used below people, but it hitting higher means it would probably let it catch people faster than Smash 4's Up Smash. Do keep in mind that Up Smash has to make contact with a hurtbox, though, so against moves like Ike's Nair which has good coverage around him, Falco might get clipped by it.

A recent video of Lunamado's Bowser and Falco vs. Rido's Link had Lunamado anti-air Rido's Dair several times. I'm guessing Link's Dair doesn't have as large of hitbox as in the previous game, but if you slow down the moments where it happens, you can see Falco's kick bypass Link's sword.

In the second round, the first time it occurs, Lunamado catches Rido trying to land with a Dair with the second hit of Up Smash and takes Rido's stock: https://youtu.be/Vstj4iIbc_E?t=295.

The second time it happens, Lunamado catches Rido trying to land with a Dair again with both hits: https://youtu.be/Vstj4iIbc_E?t=420.

In the last round, Lunamado catches Rido trying to Nair: https://youtu.be/Vstj4iIbc_E?t=482.

Speaking of animations affecting hitboxes and hurtboxes, Kurogane Hammer posted a side-by-side comparison of Cloud's Nair animation in Ultimate compared to Smash 4.

Clouds nair is a case of using animations to reduce hitbox size. The hitboxes are actually identical to Smash 4 but the difference is entirely in how he holds his sword. Cloud's such an alpha he bends his arm in ultimate thus reducing the range. Huh. (f13 on both images) pic.twitter.com/8oVZhO8nEO

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) December 30, 2018

Now I'm wondering about Fox's Up Smash since it does have a new animation or at least the end of it is different since Fox's does a three point landing instead of just landing on his feet like in the previous games. People keep saying it has more horizontal range which could be it having larger hitboxes or it could be that the new animation has Fox kicking out further. These outlier things with Fox's air speed increase compared to the rest of the cast and 1 more active frame for his standing and pivot grabs makes me feel suspicious that the developers want Fox to be really good. Also, if it wasn't mentioned already, but Fox's dash attack in Ultimate has 4 less total frames because reasons: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=144709605.

Smash 4 dash attack had 35 total frames to Ultimate's 31 and it has the same frame 4 startup and same active frames for its clean and late hits meaning its recovery dropped from 21 frames to 17. As if Fox's dash attack wasn't already good. Meanwhile, Falco whose dash attack gained doubled startup in Smash 4 still has essentially the same recovery since Melee, but without IASA. Melee and Brawl Falco's dash attack had 23 recovery frames to Smash 4 and Ultimate Falco's 22 frames. With IASA, Melee's drops down to 19 and Brawl's drops down to 18. Salt aside, I believe it was mentioned, and noticed early on too, that most dash attacks received buffs in some way except for some characters like Marth's was unchanged.

 

[savge25]

King Dedede Advanced Guide for Ultimate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG9ZIe0Xcw4