Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meowth_]

So what characters we can agree on that are basically less viable? And potential low / bottom tier?

I’ll give some input in this:

: Mostly unchanged. Still great aerial game, but weak in everything else
: Ultimate addressed none of his weaknesses, even got nerfed I read
: Outclassed by anything that Incineroar can do, and Incineroar can do it better. He can still hold his own though much like in Smash 4, but again, weaknesses that are too easily to pass by.
: Was literally only good in Smash 64. Seems like a doomed character. It’s a shame.
: Got some new stuff but still too slow, easily punishable, can’t survive anything.
: Probably better than in 4, yet heavily underwhelming. Can get wins if the opponent doesn’t know the matchup. Which can make her appear better than she is.
: They took everything away from her what was good. Basically Brawl Sheik. Lowest of the lowest mid tier at this point I suspect.

Kirby Jiggs shiek yes I totally agree. And I agree with your approach regarding tiers.

A bottom up design method is helping us. If we can understand what makes a character bad, it will allow us to take two steps instead of one. Historically the bad characters tend to pool at the bottom and stay there for the duration
Of the lifecycle.

Also in general it’s a safe bet to assume that brawl/sm4sh characters that experienced the least changes are going to be the least prepared for the new mechanics. That’s just my opinion. It seems logical (but it is based on the assumption that the characters who were altered experienced changes that were a net positive)

 

[Heracr055]

There seems to be an influx of newer/uninformed posters congregating here and posting incorrect or misinformed analyses of character impressions (especially the ones that are only a few sentences long). In addition, these posters appear to be agreeing with eachother, which generates a cycle of incorrect/offbase opinions having credibility.
So some advice for these newer/uninformed posters: can you lurk some more? Or if you need to share your opinion, please provide some good backup for those opinions? I think this thread can benefit with those requests taken into account and would be appreciated.

To make a relevant post: Jigglypuff is not in the same boat as she was in Smash 4. While her moveset hasn't changed all that much, the mechanics of the game have changed to heavily benefit her. The nerf to airdodges and thus recoveries across the board make her carry off the side & edgeguard game much more formidable. The recent discovery of the dash attack cancel also makes her aerials in neutral safer, especially her back air. It's easier to link attacks into Rest, so it's a more formidable tool despite the slight nerf to it (not to mention that a Rest that connects can be mashed out of to wake up earlier, reducing how punishable a landed Rest is). Sing got a buff to it's range and it looks very promising from where it was in previous games (applications of it are still being explored). All in all, things have gotten much better for her, and I can say with full confidence that she will not be where she was in 4.

Edit: Nah's below post is right that having people be corrected here is good for everyone. But at the minimum I'd like to see people try to back up their claims with information, so that we can respond better (a post saying "G&W sucks because he's light" is not a thorough or accurate statement, for example). So I'm not necessarily calling for newer/uninformed players to be silent, but just provide evidence and reasoning

 

[The_Bookworm]

So what characters we can agree on that are basically less viable? And potential low / bottom tier?

I’ll give some input in this:

: Mostly unchanged. Still great aerial game, but weak in everything else
: Ultimate addressed none of his weaknesses, even got nerfed I read
: Outclassed by anything that Incineroar can do, and Incineroar can do it better. He can still hold his own though much like in Smash 4, but again, weaknesses that are too easily to pass by.
: Was literally only good in Smash 64. Seems like a doomed character. It’s a shame.
: Got some new stuff but still too slow, easily punishable, can’t survive anything.
: Probably better than in 4, yet heavily underwhelming. Can get wins if the opponent doesn’t know the matchup. Which can make her appear better than she is.
: They took everything away from her what was good. Basically Brawl Sheik. Lowest of the lowest mid tier at this point I suspect.

Mostly unchanged?!? Check out the changelist for Puff and you can see that Puff got drastically buffed. Almost all of its moves received some solid buffs, giving back some move's big versatility from Melee as well. Something that SSB4 Puff suffered from specifically is that pretty much all of it's aerials had a decent amount of landing lag (having a frame 6 jumpsquat doesn't help). In Ultimate, all of it's aerials is pretty much Melee levels of lagless, while retaining the power it's SSB4 aerials had. Setups to Rest is back (such as up air -> Rest and jab lock -> Rest)! Another big improvement that Melee Puff possessed. The changes to airdodges and recoveries being weaker also greatly benefits it.
What you said seemed true during the month leading into the game's release, but Jr. got really big buffs. His aerial game is MUCH better, stemming from a frame 3 jumpsquat and much less lag in s aerials (nair can autocancel in a short hop). A lot of his moves also simply got a tune in utility (jab being the best example). His biggest buff is that the Clown Cart damage multiplier now takes priority over the Koopaling multiplier, which means that he is most of the time taking less damage than the rest of the cast. I do think Jr. is in the lower tiers due to retaining some of his weaknesses, but sleep on him in your own peril.
Mostly agree on your estimate for Mac. I personally think that he may be the worst character, but in this game, pretty much everyone is broken. : p
Kirby received some significant buffs, but has also received a few nerfs and some retained weaknesses. I do agree on Kirby being in the lower tiers (like Jr.), but I think Kirby is getting mad underrated (his grounded game is actually pretty scary to deal with, alongside being so small). Better go before Myllonir gets on my case. : p
Game & Watch is a really weird character to place. On one hand, he got significant buffs, but he got big nerfs, but he fits very well with the game engine, but he has less disjoint, but his recovery is still among the best in the game...... he is too weird to accurately place in the current moment.
Wii Fit is noticeably better than in SSB4, stemming from better hitboxes, better mobility (which aids her hitbox problem more than anyone else), and still good damage and projectiles. At the same time, she still has weird hitboxes. She is weird to place in the current moment.
I do agree with you on Sheik, but the reason why different. Sheik is directly nerfed overall, but she still has the amazing speed (she is now faster than Fox in this game) and frame data. She is only slightly nerfed directly. The thing is that she is also nerfed directly as well, as everyone else got big frame data buffs (especially at the air), and most of them has either better damage, better KO potential, or both. Kind of in a similar position like her Brawl incarnation when talking about her damage and frame data in comparison to everyone else.

There seems to be an influx of newer/uninformed posters congregating here and posting incorrect or misinformed analyses of character impressions (especially the ones that are only a few sentences long). In addition, these posters appear to be agreeing with eachother, which generates a cycle of incorrect/offbase opinions having creedence.
So some advice for these newer/uninformed posters: can you lurk some more? Or if you need to share your opinion, please provide some good backup for those opinions? I think this thread can benefit with those requests taken into account and would be appreciated.
To make a relevant post: Jigglypuff is not in the same boat as she was in Smash 4. While her moveset hasn't changed all that much, the mechanics of the game have changed to heavily benefit her. The nerf to airdodges and thus recoveries across the board make her carry off the side & edgeguard game much more formidable. The recent discovery of the dash attack cancel also makes her aerials in neutral safer, especially her back air. It's easier to link attacks into Rest, so it's a more fornidable tool despite the slight nerf to it ( ot to mention that a Rest that connects can be mashed out of to wake up earlier, reducing how punishable a landed Rest is). Sing got a buff to it's range and it looks very promising from where it was in previous games (applications of it are still being explored). All in all, things have gotten much better for her, and I can say with full confidence that she will not be where she was in 4.

I agree with you, especially since the game is not even a month old. Almost no time for the metagame to develop.

 

[Untouch]

I can't see a world where Jr is any better than low tier while he has the problems with his recovery.

 

[Rizen]

In this game, even more than SSB4, characters will end up in low tier because "somebody has to be". The power level in Ultimate is higher and literally everyone got certain buffs. It's not a question of if a character's good but rather who are they actually better than? Who do they beat?

With that said certain characters do feel better or worse than most. The hardest part will be determining the middle tiers.

 

[Nah]

Uninformed/low quality posts and misinformation is something that will always happen regardless of what you do, short of literally setting permissions so that only specific users can post in this thread.

Instead of basically telling these people to stfu and gtfo, I'd rather that misinformation be corrected and conversation be opened with these people--turn the uninformed into the informed basically. Sure, some people will learn better if they stay quiet and read the more quality posts of this thread, but for some, that's not gonna work.

but that's just me

 

[bc1910]

It still has invincibility, but it's now full body on the active frames (21-25f; 5 frames) versus smash 4's upper body invincibility covering most of the startup as well (4-25f; 22 frames). Really hurts the usability of it regardless.

The G&W Usmash nerf is in keeping with the general balancing pattern we’ve seen in the transition from Smash 4 to Ultimate; that is, nerf an overcentralising option, buff everything else.

In many cases (ROB, Greninja, DK, Bowser) the tertiary buffs have made the characters a lot more cohesive and been enough to push them into viability, despite the loss of a powerful option. In G&W’s case the tertiary buffs work in tandem with a significant retooling of his existing moveset. It will take players a while to adapt to so many changes, but on the surface they aren’t enough to compensate for the Usmash (and Dthrow) nerf.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's really just that we want to avoid the echo effect of baseless information--otherwise we'd all be using Twitter instead.

I want to be extra clear that there is no minimum height to ride this thread. All levels of play are worthy of discussion, and just because there is usually more to discuss for higher levels shouldn't stop anyone. What's more, everyone is capable of asking good questions. They key is just to focus on your direct impressions and observations. Prioritizing second-hand information is how you end up thinking that the Grinch put Mach Rider in the game.


I've really been enjoying Incineroar, just super fun gameplay there. I've actually found him to thrive against people who normally enjoy oppressive hitboxes they can smother you with, like Yoshi or swordies. In comparison, cautious heavies who are more judicious with their attacks (and employ command grabs) are far harder to Revenge and far more punishing on whiff. Ridley, Bowser, and DK all feel rough for him, but give me a Wolf or Chrom all day?

I'm curious to hear what other people's matchup experiences have been with him.

 

[Myollnir]

Huge tournament happening in France tomorrow (200+) ft. NAKAT, Keitaro, & most of France (D1 is there too but he won't play afaik).

DEFINITELY expect some action with Glutonny, I know some people here think Wario isn't good, but you'll see by yourself, the character is really really good now.

 

[J0eyboi]

Healthy eSports patch rapidly, every 2-4 weeks depending on the title. The idea of "patching too much" is a hypothetical problem that I'm not aware of happening in any competitive game ever, much less Smash and the 9-10 week average patches we saw with Smash 4. We didn't need "more data" or "the meta to settle" to nerf pre-patch Rosa or pre-patch Diddy--and the sooner they could be fixed, the sooner we could move on to developing and enjoying the actual long-term game.

Patching too often isn't a problem in theory, but can become one if the developers aren't willing to revert changes that turn out to be unnecessary or bad. Unfortunately, that may be the exact situation we are currently in, based on Smash 4. As such, some worry that if patches happen too early, someone like K.Rool might receive unneeded nerfs that are never rolled back or compensated for.

The nature of Smash 4's patches doesn't exactly help. From what I've seen, outside of making **** work the way it was supposed to, the vast majority of 4's patches were extremely ad-hoc, with no consistent design intent behind them. There were a lot of bandaid fixes (Samus dash attack, heavies' combo throws) that only made the characters given them less interesting. They did a bit better with nerfs, but a lot of them seem like things they should've playtested away before the game came out to me. A lot of the Smash 4 patches came off as rushed or undertested because of this.

To be fair to the dev team, it seems like a lot of the changes in between games had significantly more intention and consideration behind them, particularly with a lot of the superheavies, which may indicate that the balance team has a clearer vision of what they want the game to be.

That said, it still feels like there was a lack of consideration and playtesting in a lot of areas. Sheik and Luigi are good examples of this. Sheik is extremely similar to her Smash 4 counterpart in terms of raw numbers, which makes me think that the dev team didn't consider how the hitstun changes and directional airdodging would affect her combos and kill setups. With Luigi, it just seems like they didn't realize how dumb the landing lag reductions would make his combo game, which reeks of too little testing.

Coming back from that tangent, I don't think it's unreasonable to not want balance patches this early, based on the way Smash 4 was balanced, and while in theory patching too much isn't possible, I'd rather they release more deliberate patches less frequently than more reactionary patches more often. Of course, either would be better than the infrequent reactionary patches we got in 4.

 

[Meritocracy]

I have a random poll/question. How do people think character viability would change if player mindset shifted heavily towards edge guarding?
secondly,

With Luigi, it just seems like they didn't realize how dumb the landing lag reductions would make his combo game, which reeks of too little testing.

I disagree, I bet that nerfs for recovery and grab were supposed to compensate for the intentional insanity of his ariels. (Heads up, I probably fall under the category of "uninformed scrub" that has been aforementioned, so take everything I say with a grain of salt)

 

[Iridium]

PSA: This isn't how initial dash speed works. Initial dash speed only applies on frame 1 of your dash. On every subsequent frame, your dash speed is either increased by your dash acceleration if your current speed is higher than your runspeed, or decreased by your traction if your current speed is lower than your run speed. An initial dash speed of 1.9 barely matters if you're as slow as Link, because thanks to the universal traction increase, he'll be down to his run speed by the 5th frame of his dash. It's an improvement over Smash 4 for sure, but his initial dash only goes ~16% further than it would have in Smash 4 if it had the same animation length (His average speed across his entire initial dash is now 1.613, slightly faster than Smash 4 Mario's run speed).

Only because I don't want to leave you confused. Sorry for quoting too late.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[J0eyboi]

Only because I don't want to leave you confused. Sorry for quoting too late.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Yeah, I saw that a while ago.

I disagree, I bet that nerfs for recovery and grab were supposed to compensate for the intentional insanity of his ariels. (Heads up, I probably fall under the category of "uninformed scrub" that has been aforementioned, so take everything I say with a grain of salt)

I mean, I'm sure the intention was to improve his combo game and kill power in exchange for a worse recovery and grab (I'd imagine that the different grab was something Sakurai decided on early on in an attempt to make Luigi more representative of his series, rather than a deliberate balance decision), but I seriously doubt they intended to make him able to consistently 0-death the entire cast. That's the part that makes it seem like they didn't playtest, not the buffs themselves.

 

[Meritocracy]

I mean, I'm sure the intention was to improve his combo game and kill power in exchange for a worse recovery and grab (I'd imagine that the different grab was something Sakurai decided on early on in an attempt to make Luigi more representative of his series, rather than a deliberate balance decision), but I seriously doubt they intended to make him able to consistently 0-death the entire cast.

You're likely correct, however, in my opinion, the coolest archetype in smash is "has trouble finding openings but goes to town once they do." This happens to be Mario's archetype, and it being Luigi's, but exaggerated and goofy, makes a fun kind of sense, and I think Sakurai has enough of an ability to connect with these characters that it isn't completely unintentional.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's really just that we want to avoid the echo effect of baseless information--otherwise we'd all be using Twitter instead.

I want to be extra clear that there is no minimum height to ride this thread. All levels of play are worthy of discussion, and just because there is usually more to discuss for higher levels shouldn't stop anyone. What's more, everyone is capable of asking good questions. They key is just to focus on your direct impressions and observations. Prioritizing second-hand information is how you end up thinking that the Grinch put Mach Rider in the game.


I've really been enjoying Incineroar, just super fun gameplay there. I've actually found him to thrive against people who normally enjoy oppressive hitboxes they can smother you with, like Yoshi or swordies. In comparison, cautious heavies who are more judicious with their attacks (and employ command grabs) are far harder to Revenge and far more punishing on whiff. Ridley, Bowser, and DK all feel rough for him, but give me a Wolf or Chrom all day?

I'm curious to hear what other people's matchup experiences have been with him.

I'm not sure I'm exactly qualified to talk about Incineroar's matchups, but I will say that he's surprisingly fun to play even though I normally dislike using grappler characters. Alolan Whip is loads of fun, and helps make his recovery not completely bootycheeks. (Just mostly bootycheeks.)

(Whenever I get hit by it myself I keep thinking I can press buttons to muck it up for some reason despite that being very much not the case.)

I have noticed that despite the clothesline finisher being the stronger and generally more desired option, sometimes I'll deliberately mistime it for the shoulder fling instead if I feel like I want them to go above me instead of behind me. This is especially the case if they're in the 100ish range but the clothesline will send them across the stage instead of towards the blast zone.

Also I'm still not over how ludicrously strong his smashes are, especially fsmash, and especially when powered up by Revenge.

I'm cautiously optimistic about his long-term prospects. He has good frame data on enough moves that he's not completely free vs. rushdown, and Lariat/Revenge are both solid "get off me" buttons to beat out most incoming attacks. I suspect his main weakness will be mobility-based camping (e.g. Sonic), since projectile camping can be converted to Revenge fodder.

After cheesing the challenge to beat a level 5 CPU with a 300% handicap, I learned that Revenge's counter hit has either nonexistent or ludicrously low KBG.

 

[Browny]

Thoughts from a Pokemon fanatic that doesn't even play the pokemon games

Is no where near 'buffed' like what some people say. She was by far the single largest benefactor of multiple airdodge spamming as it gave her one of the safest approach options in the game and made her recovering easy. Losing this has hurt her a lot and negates the benefit she gains in edgeguarding ability. Many of people think she has a really good recovery, but that incredibly slow fall speed with no useable upb forces her to recover on stage. Recoveries that sweetspot the ledge have been buffed in this game with the ledge being stupidly safe so she gets absolutely no benefit whatsoever from those changes. Nair remains her best move in most situations. Rest needs to be significantly stronger, I'd say KO 20% earlier as edgeguarding is her best KO option but against characters who you can't really edgeguard like ROB or Sonic, she needs something else to work with.

and Jigglypuff were the #1 and #2 biggest users of multiple airdodge spamming, so its hurt him too. Losing his free dtilt tipper combos and ease of teleport cancels is bad, but he has generally been buffed across the board outside of that. I am fully confident that this game will go the exact same way as brawl and smash 4 where the 'meta' becomes throwing out safe hitboxes vs who can whiff punish the hardest and Mewtwo is right up there as one of, if not the strongest whiff punisher in the game. Shadow Ball is ridiculously strong now and can plow right through more projectiles than ever before, this is the key to his success with a lot more patience and a lot more running away with projectiles. I don't see him as any better or worse than Smash 4, he just requires a certain playstyle to succeed with. Snake is similar. You can either play him as if he was in PM, or in Brawl. Only one of those playstyles is going to work in this game, and its not the flashy one.

I absolutely, unequivocally, wholeheartedly disagree with Zero etc on placing him top. Lucario has the single worst OOS options in the game. Jab, dtilt and ftilt are slow, utilt requires a pivot to be fast, usmash is way too slow and hits behind him and of course no useable upb out of shield. His SH is so damn high that he actually can't nair oos and hit people, dair doesnt hit enough to the side. Fair is the only thing he can do and that only works on the tallest of characters, right in his face. His smash attacks are all frame 16 or later, bair is relatively slow as well. DT, shadowball and aura etc got slight buffs and his move speed went up. Against a character like pichu for example, its extremely dramatic what his issues are. Pichu can do anything he wants to Lucario's shield without any care whatsoever of a punish, while everything Lucario does to Pichu gets punished, and punished stupidly hard. These issues will become apparent soon enough when people realise that oppressive hitbox spamming against him is really effective. He needs nair to hit lower and come out significantly faster to give him any sort of reasonable oos punish and fsmash to be faster or something. He also might be a candidate for the slowest kill moves of the entire cast, I actually can't think of any character that lacks a single smash under 15 frames, and a single KO aerial under 10 frames with no reliable kill throw. Aura sphere being the only thing saving him here. People saying he is top is doing him a massive disservice. Pretending that a character is top tier helps no one. The character needs some work. He's not bad by any means, it's just wrong that one character lacks what literally everyone else has. Not just a really poor option, but legitimately no option.

I believe he has the best normals in the game and by some margin after that. All of his aerials are extremely solid and useful with nair being the clear best as a combo breaker than can kill, only dair is average. Dtilt is what all dtilts aspire to be with decent range, speed and a vacuum effect that sucks the enemy into him and true comboing into things like usmash and lariat for easy 28% or so at a huge range of %. Combined with his specials, Incineroar has the best options to deal with almost any scenario with the hardest punishes of any character, its just such a perfect combination of speed, power, invincibility and of course his grabs. Obviously, his move speed is horrible. If his double jump went a little higher, I'd be happy. He's a hard character to balance because he needs his flaws to counter his ridiculous strengths and when you look at his attacks, you really don't want to be buffing them any further as a means to balance him. His dash grab and roll cancelled boost grab goes surprisingly far, people don't know this, its almost half the distance of FD. It can outrange coutless faster characters and is part of what will be needed to advance him.

 

[Ffamran]

Ffamran,
That’s what I was thinking too. The melee chars feel like they were ported. Wario Lucario and TL feel ported too.

No, I'm talking about one move, Pichu's Ftilt in Ultimate, seeming like its startup, active frames, and total frames were ripped from Melee and then transformed into a new monstrosity of a move in Ultimate. You, on the other hand, are fixated on what your belief that so-and-so characters are ported from previous games and for some reason, seeing my post on Pichu's Ftilt somehow validates that.

Now, I am not targeting you, but when you make claims such as these, then you have to back them up with evidence, proof, or something tangible than "feels" or leaving these statements to somehow stand as truths.

Regarding character ports,

Overall most of the melee characters seem like they were ported in directly from melee itself.

Wario is a brawl port, Lucario too.

The melee chars feel like they were ported. Wario Lucario and TL feel ported too.

YL Pichu and to a lesser extent Roy all feel like melee chars. It’s hard to tell the dif. From a programming perspective it makes sense though. The “wave dash” throwback and the leniency afforded to aerial canceling is really melee-esque (for example, a link dair animation touching the ground and being canceled laglessly).

There are a few characters that are ultimate on the outside and melee under the hood

What I am going to say I hope you do not misunderstand or misconstrue: characters are often kept the same or similar through their appearances except for major and often universal changes such as the transition from Melee to Brawl where fall speeds was drastically lowered or Ultimate deciding that everyone should have frame 3 jumps. Why? Because it's takes time and effort to redesign characters which developers usually cannot afford and for Smash which dangerous increases its roster size with each installment, it would be impossible to go over each and every character to see if they need to be overhauled or not. This does not mean that characters are directly ported over from game to game. Each game adjusts the character to fit the game they are appearing in.

For example, if young Link was ported from Melee, then young Link's fall speed would be significantly higher than it was adjusted to for Ultimate. In Melee his fall speed was 2.13 which is a bit higher than Ultimate Fox's 2.1 fall speed and much higher than young Link's 1.8 fall speed in Ultimate. Some if not maybe all of his moves would be different in some way like he would have kept his fire spike Dair, some moves would have higher active frames, and so on. Same deal with Lucario, Toon Link, and Wario the characters you believe were ported from Brawl.

I have no idea what you're talking about aerial canceling. What I do know is that Ultimate drastically lowered landing lag where sometimes it's lower than L-canceled aerials in Melee. Auto-cancel windows, however, I'm not sure on as I don't think all the data on that for Ultimate has been gathered yet. On the subject of young Link again, his Dair has 17 landing frames in Ultimate. In Melee? 50 frames normally and 25 L-canceled.

Ultimate young Link's frame data (in Japanese and as far as we can get without complete access to datamined files): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1017830432.

Melee young Link's frame data (does not cover knockback, hit angles, etc.): https://smashboards.com/threads/young-link-hitboxes-and-frame-data.301753/.

I think a handful of the overtuned ones are overtuned because they are running melee mechanics. It seems very straightforward.

No, they're, whatever they are, overtuned because the developers gave them too good of numbers and somehow they and testers didn't think it would be too powerful. Redundantly, they are overtuned because they are overtuned. No character in this game is running exclusive Melee mechanics.

Wave landing on platforms is another example. It is the fastest way to get onto a platform from underneath it. I can’t think of any reason why it would be in the game as the fastest option to get onto the platform, aside from developers poaching melee code during the development cycle.

Where's the testing that was done to show this?

Some characters have jumps that let them land right onto certain platforms. Other characters can't even reach a platform with their ground jump like Snake apparently can't while others overshoot because of how high they jump. There's also the issue of air dodges having landing lag, 18 frames for directional air dodges and 12 frames for no directional input. This thread was a very early look into the game before it was released and discusses some things about "wavedashes" in Ultimate: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...ead-training-mode-tested-all-76-chars.464174/. I'm not sure how valid it is nowadays.

Also, I'm pretty sure developers can't poach their own code.

Some things just feel very melee. For example, Falcon trying to recover from a 45 degree angle below the X axis (stage). Peach pulls a turnip, throws it, Falcon can’t dodge it and he can’t get hit by it.

This has been day one Smash for the life of Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and anyone with a crappy recovery. Diddy, the Links, Mega Man, Peach & Daisy, ROB, Snake, and anyone else with an item game who I forgot about or arcing and/or controllable projectile game like Doc, Lucas, Mario, Ness, and the Pits have always been able to take a dump on people trying to recover. Why they didn't dodge, I don't know. Maybe they thought they weren't going to be hit by it, maybe they thought that if they get hit by it, they could get some height or refresh one of their recovery moves, or maybe they didn't react in time or reacted very poorly. There's also the issue of how fast the projectile was being thrown, if it was timed explosive or not, and how the projectile functions.

The wavedash on Luigi is very much the same as melee Luigi, it would be very cool to have a clip of the two side by side.

Don't make a claim you cannot prove and then essentially request a way to prove it. If you do not have evidence, then you simply do not have evidence. I also very much doubt that Ultimate Luigi's wavedash or waveland is the same as Melee Luigi's. For one, in every game, but Ultimate, Luigi's traction was the lowest meaning he could slide very easily and very far on the ground. Ultimate Luigi's traction is around average and even if it wasn't, it's significantly higher than in any Smash game.

SSB wiki's page on traction: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Traction. It does not have Ultimate's values yet which are available, but currently only on a Japanese frame data source.

So, this section: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1016493459, has gravity and traction values where I believe "地上抵抗" means traction and "重力" means gravity. The only thing I have to go off of traction is that Wolf's traction was reported to be 0.11 on the Wolf boards and Wolf's value for "地上抵抗" is indeed 0.11. Also, if you're wondering why Charizard, Ivysaur, Squirtle, and the Mii Fighters are using different icons, well, it's because they don't have their Ultimate stock icons yet. And yes, "Pac-n-Flower" is Piranha Plant. Piranha Plant's Japanese name is apparently "Packun Flower"? "Pac-n-Flower" is the result of Google Translate.

Note: Forgot to put this in, but since there's so many characters, I might have entered in the wrong value. Hopefully, that didn't happen.

Spoiler: Giant Table

Character|Traction|Gravity
|0.102|0.087
|0.123|0.085
|0.113|0.096
|0.082|0.075
|0.082|0.075
|0.095|0.08
|0.116|0.064
|0.115|0.23
|0.132|0.095
|0.096|0.083
|0.131|0.077
|0.105|0.12
|0.087|0.053
|0.111|0.07
|0.111|0.07
|0.104|0.125
(Popo)|0.077|0.082
(Nana)|0.0847|0.082
|0.106|0.15
|0.116|0.071
|0.106|0.087
|0.11|0.14
|0.127|0.13
|0.114|0.075
|0.114|0.075
|0.105|0.096
|0.125|0.108
|0.116|0.082
|0.107|0.114
|0.107|0.114
|0.131|0.08
|0.097|0.11
|0.135|0.081
|0.135|0.081
|0.116|0.12
|0.106|0.107
|0.116|0.08
|0.112|0.092
|0.088|0.128
|0.121|0.082
|0.11|0.11
|0.093|0.125
|0.116|0.09
|0.138|0.09
|0.085|0.097
|0.093|0.068
|0.116|0.084
|0.105|0.09
|0.086|0.081
|0.11|0.13
|0.131|0.078
|0.094|0.107
|0.128|0.09
|0.099|0.062
|0.116|0.09
|0.087|0.18
|0.12|0.169
|0.11|0.106
|0.076|0.098
|0.106|0.12
|0.116|0.072
|0.105|0.089
|0.094|0.098
|0.085|0.092
|0.09|0.076
|0.11|0.12
|0.11|0.12
|0.106|0.098
|0.129|0.092
|0.11|0.12
|0.102|0.087
|0.08|0.09
|0.085|0.085
|0.085|0.085
|0.105|0.015
|0.131|0.07
|0.114|0.126
"Pac-n-Flower"|0.088|0.085

Regarding traction, Sonic has the highest traction in the game at 0.138 while Mii Gunner has the lowest this time and not Luigi. Luigi's traction value is 0.096 which is higher than several other characters, so around average I guess while Mii Gunner's traction is 0.076. Nana's traction and other values are different from Popo since she needs to keep up with him and in the spreadsheet, she's the character after Piranha Plant. For this table, however, I had her follow Popo instead of listing her last. Traction values are much higher in Ultimate than in previous games. Anyway, the lowest traction of 0.076 is higher than the highest traction in Smash 4, Lucario's 0.0736. Traction in Ultimate is around the highs of Melee where you had characters like Link, Peach, Pichu, and Zelda with traction values of 0.1 where all four in Ultimate have higher traction than in Melee.

Gravity on the other hand I'm not sure if it changed all that much except for Fox who has his Melee gravity again. I think this makes it even easier to kill him off the top now with his lower weight because starting in Brawl, gravity affects vertical knockback.

The Belmonts, Charizard, and King K. Rool are currently the only characters to have the same value for traction and gravity.

Edit: Forgot that Mii Gunner existed.

Luigi’s tornado is out prioritizing pretty much everything thrown at it and it kills easily.

It has invincibility on frames 4-8 on the ground and frames 1-7 in the air. To my knowledge, in no game does Luigi Cyclone have transcendent priority. Mario's Mario Tornado in Melee had transcendent priority for all its hits and Dr. Mario's Dr. Tornado had transcendent priority for all, but the last hit in Melee and for its last hit in Smash 4 according to the SSB wiki which I will remind people again can be wrong: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority.

In other words, Luigi Cyclone has normal priority. If I am understanding priority correctly, then while it is on ground and against another ground move, then it will clank if the other move doesn't do more than 9% of its damage which would be around 11.4%, but if it's during its I-frames, then it will still clank or if it is outprioritized, then Luigi just doesn't get hurt. If it is on the ground and against an aerial, then it will trade when its not invincible. While its invincibility is active, then I'm guessing Luigi doesn't get hurt, but the attacker will. If it's being used in the air, then it will trade against ground normals and aerials when its not invincible, but if it is invincible, then Luigi won't get hurt, but the attacker probably will.

It, along with Dr. Tornado have at least since Smash 4, been able to kill. Luigi Cyclone killed more easily in Smash 4 when you could confirm it high up in the air or use it gimp people which you can really do in Ultimate since mashing doesn't cause Luigi to gain any height.

Surprising number of chars look like they have kill confirms on grabs at some %.

Who are these characters with what kill confirms on their throws at some percent? Were they tested with DI? Who were they tested on? Are these kill confirms from throws confirmed to be combos and not strings, followups, or responses to an opponent reacting very poorly or stupidly?

Look, kill confirms from throws isn't anything new, so it's not surprising if characters in Ultimate have them. The problem, however, is that you're throwing out a generalized claim. There is no evidence, there is no proof, there is nothing backing up this "surprising" thing you have noticed and claimed.

 

[Tri Knight]

No, I'm talking about one move, Pichu's Ftilt in Ultimate, seeming like its startup, active frames, and total frames were ripped from Melee and then transformed into a new monstrosity of a move in Ultimate. You, on the other hand, are fixated on what your belief that so-and-so characters are ported from previous games and for some reason, seeing my post on Pichu's Ftilt somehow validates that.

Now, I am not targeting you, but when you make claims such as these, then you have to back them up with evidence, proof, or something tangible than "feels" or leaving these statements to somehow stand as truths.

Regarding character ports,


What I am going to say I hope you do not misunderstand or misconstrue: characters are often kept the same or similar through their appearances except for major and often universal changes such as the transition from Melee to Brawl where fall speeds was drastically lowered or Ultimate deciding that everyone should have frame 3 jumps. Why? Because it's takes time and effort to redesign characters which developers usually cannot afford and for Smash which dangerous increases its roster size with each installment, it would be impossible to go over each and every character to see if they need to be overhauled or not. This does not mean that characters are directly ported over from game to game. Each game adjusts the character to fit the game they are appearing in.

For example, if young Link was ported from Melee, then young Link's fall speed would be significantly higher than it was adjusted to for Ultimate. In Melee his fall speed was 2.13 which is a bit higher than Ultimate Fox's 2.1 fall speed and much higher than young Link's 1.8 fall speed in Ultimate. Some if not maybe all of his moves would be different in some way like he would have kept his fire spike Dair, some moves would have higher active frames, and so on. Same deal with Lucario, Toon Link, and Wario the characters you believe were ported from Brawl.

I have no idea what you're talking about aerial canceling. What I do know is that Ultimate drastically lowered landing lag where sometimes it's lower than L-canceled aerials in Melee. Auto-cancel windows, however, I'm not sure on as I don't think all the data on that for Ultimate has been gathered yet. On the subject of young Link again, his Dair has 17 landing frames in Ultimate. In Melee? 50 frames normally and 25 L-canceled.

Ultimate young Link's frame data (in Japanese and as far as we can get without complete access to datamined files): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1017830432.

Melee young Link's frame data (does not cover knockback, hit angles, etc.): https://smashboards.com/threads/young-link-hitboxes-and-frame-data.301753/.


No, they're, whatever they are, overtuned because the developers gave them too good of numbers and somehow they and testers didn't think it would be too powerful. Redundantly, they are overtuned because they are overtuned. No character in this game is running exclusive Melee mechanics.


Where's the testing that was done to show this?

Some characters have jumps that let them land right onto certain platforms. Other characters can't even reach a platform with their ground jump like Snake apparently can't while others overshoot because of how high they jump. There's also the issue of air dodges having landing lag, 18 frames for directional air dodges and 12 frames for no directional input. This thread was a very early look into the game before it was released and discusses some things about "wavedashes" in Ultimate: https://smashboards.com/threads/lan...ead-training-mode-tested-all-76-chars.464174/. I'm not sure how valid it is nowadays.

Also, I'm pretty sure developers can't poach their own code.


This has been day one Smash for the life of Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and anyone with a crappy recovery. Diddy, the Links, Mega Man, Peach & Daisy, ROB, Snake, and anyone else with an item game who I forgot about or arcing and/or controllable projectile game like Doc, Lucas, Mario, Ness, and the Pits have always been able to take a dump on people trying to recover. Why they didn't dodge, I don't know. Maybe they thought they weren't going to be hit by it, maybe they thought that if they get hit by it, they could get some height or refresh one of their recovery moves, or maybe they didn't react in time or reacted very poorly. There's also the issue of how fast the projectile was being thrown, if it was timed explosive or not, and how the projectile functions.


Don't make a claim you cannot prove and then essentially request a way to prove it. If you do not have evidence, then you simply do not have evidence. I also very much doubt that Ultimate Luigi's wavedash or waveland is the same as Melee Luigi's. For one, in every game, but Ultimate, Luigi's traction was the lowest meaning he could slide very easily and very far on the ground. Ultimate Luigi's traction is around average and even if it wasn't, it's significantly higher than in any Smash game.

SSB wiki's page on traction: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Traction. It does not have Ultimate's values yet which are available, but currently only on a Japanese frame data source.



It has invincibility on frames 4-8 on the ground and frames 1-7 in the air. To my knowledge, in no game does Luigi Cyclone have transcendent priority. Mario's Mario Tornado in Melee had transcendent priority for all its hits and Dr. Mario's Dr. Tornado had transcendent priority for all, but the last hit in Melee and for its last hit in Smash 4 according to the SSB wiki which I will remind people again can be wrong: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority.

In other words, Luigi Cyclone has normal priority. If I am understanding priority correctly, then while it is on ground and against another ground move, then it will clank if the other move doesn't do more than 9% of its damage which would be around 11.4%, but if it's during its I-frames, then it will still clank or if it is outprioritized, then Luigi just doesn't get hurt. If it is on the ground and against an aerial, then it will trade when its not invincible. While its invincibility is active, then I'm guessing Luigi doesn't get hurt, but the attacker will. If it's being used in the air, then it will trade against ground normals and aerials when its not invincible, but if it is invincible, then Luigi won't get hurt, but the attacker probably will.

It, along with Dr. Tornado have at least since Smash 4, been able to kill. Luigi Cyclone killed more easily in Smash 4 when you could confirm it high up in the air or use it gimp people which you can really do in Ultimate since mashing doesn't cause Luigi to gain any height.


Who are these characters with what kill confirms on their throws at some percent? Were they tested with DI? Who were they tested on? Are these kill confirms from throws confirmed to be combos and not strings, followups, or responses to an opponent reacting very poorly or stupidly?

Look, kill confirms from throws isn't anything new, so it's not surprising if characters in Ultimate have them. The problem, however, is that you're throwing out a generalized claim. There is no evidence, there is no proof, there is nothing backing up this "surprising" thing you have noticed and claimed.

This wasn't meant for me but I was curious about Young Link's current frame data compared to Melee. A little weird to read through Google translations but he's definitely got great frame data. Toon Link has some good data as well too, it seems.

Anyway, thanks for the info dump!

 

[Ajani]

Thoughts from a Pokemon fanatic that doesn't even play the pokemon games

I absolutely, unequivocally, wholeheartedly disagree with Zero etc on placing him top. Lucario has the single worst OOS options in the game. Jab, dtilt and ftilt are slow, utilt requires a pivot to be fast, usmash is way too slow and hits behind him and of course no useable upb out of shield. His SH is so damn high that he actually can't nair oos and hit people, dair doesnt hit enough to the side. Fair is the only thing he can do and that only works on the tallest of characters, right in his face. His smash attacks are all frame 16 or later, bair is relatively slow as well. DT, shadowball and aura etc got slight buffs and his move speed went up. Against a character like pichu for example, its extremely dramatic what his issues are. Pichu can do anything he wants to Lucario's shield without any care whatsoever of a punish, while everything Lucario does to Pichu gets punished, and punished stupidly hard. These issues will become apparent soon enough when people realise that oppressive hitbox spamming against him is really effective. He needs nair to hit lower and come out significantly faster to give him any sort of reasonable oos punish and fsmash to be faster or something. He also might be a candidate for the slowest kill moves of the entire cast, I actually can't think of any character that lacks a single smash under 15 frames, and a single KO aerial under 10 frames with no reliable kill throw. Aura sphere being the only thing saving him here. People saying he is top is doing him a massive disservice. Pretending that a character is top tier helps no one. The character needs some work. He's not bad by any means, it's just wrong that one character lacks what literally everyone else has. Not just a really poor option, but legitimately no option.

Glad someone is talking about this. I looked at the frame data and it just doesn't make sense for his buffs to account for him being a top 10. Even with watching Zero's replays with Lucario, I just cant help but think Zero is great with him rather than the character being great them self. It felt a lot more relatable when Leffen played him and he showed that the character is frustratingly laggy. His best combo requires a grab which seems to be literally 1 frame lower that most character's jab/grab/tilts.

Is there anyone that feels strong against this?

 

[meowth_]

Flam,

Good points, next time I will not post baseless thoughts without evidence! My apologies

 

[DavemanCozy]

I feel like Lucario was kept as is with those weaknesses because he gets ludicrous KO power with aura. I am not a Lucario expert but I've fought my fair share enough to respect the increased power that also comes with increased hitbox sizes. It may not be the correct choice to have made on the devs part, but I feel that's how they felt and hence this is the Lucario we've got.

On another note I did not expect to like any Miis this time around but Swordfighter is hilarious. Gale Strike to Heros Spin is the silliest KO confirm, and despite his still laggy startup on his aerial moves, the overall speed buffs and landig lag reductions make him so much fun to play. I've been using 1132 myself. I have heard chakram is good as a projectile, but I prefer aerial spin for the ability to punish rolls and air dodges with a hard hit, and I like the reflector rainbow cape because it also screws up recoveries.

 

[MapleBeasts]

I feel like Lucario was kept as is with those weaknesses because he gets ludicrous KO power with aura. I am not a Lucario expert but I've fought my fair share enough to respect the increased power that also comes with increased hitbox sizes. It may not be the correct choice to have made on the devs part, but I feel that's how they felt and hence this is the Lucario we've got..

I can't help but agree with this. Aura remains incredibly powerful in this game despite the rage nerfs and I'm sure the devs considered this heavily when giving him his poor frame data and combo game. What's frustrating about playing Lucario in this game is that he has an incredibly hard time killing while he's at lower percentages and his frame data makes it difficult to reliably build up damage on opponents. The lack of a smash attack that comes out pre frame 16 hurts his ability to ko and his poor frame data on much of his moveset and terrible oos options make him very susceptible to punishes. I think he would be in a much better spot if the devs toned down aura while buffing his ko power and damage at lower percentages. Right now he feels really sub-par without being high percent. His frame data only serves to weaken the significant advantages aura provides.

 

[Vincent21]

I've noticed that kinda isn't being discussed that much beyond how or infringe on his niche, and I feel like that's sleeping on something major.

Does any other character in the game benefit quite as much as Little Mac does from being able to do any grounded move out of a dash?

Like, as someone who played Mac into the dirt in 4, he feels like an entirely new character with just that change alone. It's groundbreaking for him to be able to end a full sprint in tilts. Free combos out of thin air with utilt, more opportunities to get the stock-ending dtilt KO Punch confirm, and the amazing stuffing and spacing power of being able to do a retreating ftilt out of full sprint away. Actually, being able to input ftilt anywhere, at any time, period. Such a great button in neutral, and now can take total advantage of it at the same time as I optimize my movement. It feels absolutely nutty. Haven't even mentioned dsmash or jab in that context yet...

It feels like something that was fundamentally broken about him in 4 was just fixed. Like the missing link that pulls together his kit, since his grab is nothing to write home about. He doesn't have to awkwardly incorporate spurts of walking and random stopping into his movement to access his buttons. He can just be a perpetual blurry foxtrotting mess than instantly spits out hitboxes and/or super armor when threatened.

When I first started toying around with the little guy, SideB dropping like a jump felt awful, and I was in shock his recovery could get even worse, but getting used to the new air-dodge system, a lack of helpless on SideB, and this dash change makes me feel like this character is leaps and bounds better now.

Still low tier, obviously, but in no way being edged out of his ground game crown just yet.

-------------------------
Changing gears, the running sentiment seems to be that is better than because he's better honed in on their zoning niche, but is that really the case? Yes, his tools are better suited to the bomb/boomerang spam plan, but I don't think the losses Young Link sustains in that department are really meaningful. Furthermore, what you gain by picking Young Link is essentially the ability to combo out almost of every button you press. Grounded UpB gives you an aerial, fire arrow gives you a grab or aerial, soft nair gives you a follow up, and just about anything Tink gets a conversion on, you do too. You get bomb tricks and boomerang tricks and a tether grab and all that as well... so isn't the end result a case of gaining more than you lose?

Am I missing something, or doesn't Young Link build % way better out of the two of them, while having a more versatile nair and balanced set of MUs overall? Eh, I guess his arrow doesn't jab lock?

 

[Thinkaman]

It's worth pointing out that Mac cannot FH onto platforms on a wider number of stages now, including PS2, Kalos, and FoD. (This is in addition to Smashville and Dreamland.) All of these stages are worse for him than Battlefield. Hazardless Kalos seems definitely roughest, even worse than hazards Smashville; it's miserable looking for Mac.

 

[Tesh]

Mac's ground game isn't really even superlative. His combo game appears to be worse than in Smash 4. Ftilting whenever would be cool if the move didn't fail half the time anyway. Feels like they just doubled down on not caring about any depth to the character. His grab and aerial game is laughable even for a character advertised to be lackluster in those areas.

Young Link feels like easily the best link to me. Am I crazy or does his Nair give him superpowers? The speed, active frames and low lag are beyond impressive.

 

[Vincent21]

Ftilting whenever would be cool if the move didn't fail half the time anyway.

Can you expand on this? I can't picture in my head what you mean. So far, ftilt has been pretty reliable button when I hit it. I throw it out, range is good, not particularly slow, and often the first hit eats small projectiles. I haven't had any weird kinds of getting stuffed when not expecting to, or having the move not hit or anything like that, so I'd just like help getting the lightbulb moment. I'm sure what you're referring to has happened to me at least once, I play him a lot.

 

[Tesh]

It just fails to link properly sometimes, just like it did in Smash 4. You land the first hit, and something goes wrong and they just pop out before the 2nd hit gets them. Its a stellar move otherwise, but for such a risky character with several moves that pretty much intended to be jokes, its a slap in the face that one of the few "good" moves just randomly fails.


Searched up a very recent VoD and clipped you an example:

Rewatching it, I can't really find a good excuse for this move not to work. Palutena is right where Mac would prefer, on the ground directly in front of him.

 

[Vincent21]

It just fails to link properly sometimes, just like it did in Smash 4. You land the first hit, and something goes wrong and they just pop out before the 2nd hit gets them. Its a stellar move otherwise, but for such a risky character with several moves that pretty much intended to be jokes, its a slap in the face that one of the few "good" moves just randomly fails.

Rewatching it, I can't really find a good excuse for this move not to work. Palutena is right where Mac would prefer, on the ground directly in front of him.

This is a pretty good clip of it, and now I know exactly what you mean. That being said, I was under the impression this was not random at all.

My understanding is that this happens a roughly north of 80% on a lot of characters, and that the root cause is hitting with the very edge of the first hit. The ftilt's means of linking hits seems to be the first hit pushing the enemies' model away from Mac, into the center of the second hit. However, if you hit with the very edge of the first hitbox, they're too far, and the outward push that should carry them from the inner fist to the outer fist simply pushes them away entirely. The first hitbox is too far-reaching for its own good.

This is, essentially, a spacing issue, albeit one you can't always control... I've learned to always try to space the move to land the 2nd hit only. If you're landing the first hit on purpose, you cannot effectively do so at the edge of it's range because of this.

Wouldn't mind a patch, though...

 

[Tesh]

Oh I don't actually mean full RNG random like % chance of tripping. I just meant unexpected.

In a game with such freedom of movement, multihits shouldn't fail so easily because of spacing. Especially after how much has changed since melee/brawl to improve the consistency of multi-hits. SDI took a big hit, autolinks became more common, jabs do some kind of weird ground locking thing in ultimate. So it seems like they really want the first hit of a move to guarantee the rest of the move in most cases.

While we are on the subject, this as good a time as any for me to point out Mii Brawler Fair and Sonic Uair have a similar issue.

 

[Nobie]

It's worth pointing out that Mac cannot FH onto platforms on a wider number of stages now, including PS2, Kalos, and FoD. (This is in addition to Smashville and Dreamland.) All of these stages are worse for him than Battlefield. Hazardless Kalos seems definitely roughest, even worse than hazards Smashville; it's miserable looking for Mac.

I would think his faster fall speed and ability to directional air dodge would mitigate this somewhat. Is it not quite enough?

Also, I've noticed how much players feel it when their character loses combos. You can see it with Little Mac and Kirby. But I feel like players are maybe too attached to their characters being combo-oriented in many cases.

I even think Kirby isn't as bad as people say, and it's for similar reasons as Mac. There's something about the ability to run up and throw out a huge, quick jab that keeps me from thinking either suffers all that badly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who the **** is letting Kirby run up to them?

Come on now.

Playin games in here homie.

 

[Tri Knight]

I've noticed that kinda isn't being discussed that much beyond how or infringe on his niche, and I feel like that's sleeping on something major.

Does any other character in the game benefit quite as much as Little Mac does from being able to do any grounded move out of a dash?

Like, as someone who played Mac into the dirt in 4, he feels like an entirely new character with just that change alone. It's groundbreaking for him to be able to end a full sprint in tilts. Free combos out of thin air with utilt, more opportunities to get the stock-ending dtilt KO Punch confirm, and the amazing stuffing and spacing power of being able to do a retreating ftilt out of full sprint away. Actually, being able to input ftilt anywhere, at any time, period. Such a great button in neutral, and now can take total advantage of it at the same time as I optimize my movement. It feels absolutely nutty. Haven't even mentioned dsmash or jab in that context yet...

It feels like something that was fundamentally broken about him in 4 was just fixed. Like the missing link that pulls together his kit, since his grab is nothing to write home about. He doesn't have to awkwardly incorporate spurts of walking and random stopping into his movement to access his buttons. He can just be a perpetual blurry foxtrotting mess than instantly spits out hitboxes and/or super armor when threatened.

When I first started toying around with the little guy, SideB dropping like a jump felt awful, and I was in shock his recovery could get even worse, but getting used to the new air-dodge system, a lack of helpless on SideB, and this dash change makes me feel like this character is leaps and bounds better now.

Still low tier, obviously, but in no way being edged out of his ground game crown just yet.

-------------------------
Changing gears, the running sentiment seems to be that is better than because he's better honed in on their zoning niche, but is that really the case? Yes, his tools are better suited to the bomb/boomerang spam plan, but I don't think the losses Young Link sustains in that department are really meaningful. Furthermore, what you gain by picking Young Link is essentially the ability to combo out almost of every button you press. Grounded UpB gives you an aerial, fire arrow gives you a grab or aerial, soft nair gives you a follow up, and just about anything Tink gets a conversion on, you do too. You get bomb tricks and boomerang tricks and a tether grab and all that as well... so isn't the end result a case of gaining more than you lose?

Am I missing something, or doesn't Young Link build % way better out of the two of them, while having a more versatile nair and balanced set of MUs overall? Eh, I guess his arrow doesn't jab lock?

I personally think Young Link is the better of the two. I'm not trying to sound bias but you hit the nail on the head. I think the only thing Toon MAY have over Young Link is projectile camping and air mobility. He's only 3 points heavier, more floaty, and I'd argue that he has less utility overall with his projectiles than Young Link has. Other than that, Young Link's N-air and his ability to edge guard is definitely superior, his grounded Up-B is superior for combo potential, arrows are superior for combo potential (although Toon can wall better with his imo), D-air is a bit more useable for Young Link. I'm not even fond of Toon's smash attack changes. I think they're almost even though, as I can see Toon Link being able to camp out and wall opponents a bit more effectively. But I gotta give it to Young Link overall. I really don't see Toon Link being better.

The only thing I'm wondering is if their sword ranges are any different. Anyone have any insight on that?

 

[SapphSabre777]

Also, I've noticed how much players feel it when their character loses combos. You can see it with Little Mac and Kirby. But I feel like players are maybe too attached to their characters being combo-oriented in many cases.

I even think Kirby isn't as bad as people say, and it's for similar reasons as Mac. There's something about the ability to run up and throw out a huge, quick jab that keeps me from thinking either suffers all that badly.

There's a reason why Kirby being combo-oriented was a necessity, and having a lot of that combo potential being stripped is a bad thing. As Myollnir has said, it removes whatever niches he had, and in the full-character sense, it just makes him just plain bad at getting damage.

It used to be (excuse my exaggeration) "Congrats! You got a hit! Now you can combo into another hit and continue the pressure and get damage! Just a few more exchanges to go and you have KO percent." Now in Ultimate, it's now "Congrats! You hit them! Now do it again 10 or 20 more times with the worst neutral in the game." It's just painful to play as, win or lose.

And Kirby's jab is only frame 3, and suffers from piss-poor range that leaves it getting stuffed by tilts or other jabs as he runs in. Kirby IS as bad as everyone says, and it'll take a major overhaul of every attribute for him to even be considered an iota of viable.

 

[DavemanCozy]

It's worth pointing out that Mac cannot FH onto platforms on a wider number of stages now, including PS2, Kalos, and FoD. (This is in addition to Smashville and Dreamland.) All of these stages are worse for him than Battlefield. Hazardless Kalos seems definitely roughest, even worse than hazards Smashville; it's miserable looking for Mac.

I was reading this and since I ran into a similar problem with Snake not reaching the side plats in BF with a full jump, I decided to see what could be done for Little Mac.

What I found out with Snake a couple weeks ago is that he can reach Battlefields side platforms by doing a full hop -> waveland down at the apex of FH onto the platform. I tested this with Mac on SV and found that he too can do this there. He still suffers landing lag, but imo this is still useful so he can conserve his double jump.

The same thing applies with the top plat in FoD, the platform in Yoshis Island Brawl, and the PS2 platforms.

Kalos is doable too but different. Because the plats are on the side and much higher, Little Mac has to do a ledge drop -> ledge jump, his ledge jump being really high. Lol it's worth knowing for that stage but I agree its a rough one for him.

 

[trickroom]

I've been playing some Mewtwo and I can't help but agree with the crowd that believes he's still a good character. I'm starting to think that he doesn't need Dtilt comboes (even though they still kinda exist lmao) to be good -- what really makes him tick is the dominance over neutral that he gets with Shadow Ball, fair, and his sword-tail. As long as he gets to throw out these big, strong, and fast disjoints I can't see him being bad.

Side note: Can anyone verify whether or not he has nair-footstool-disable still? I'm assuming the answer is no

 

[Thinkaman]

Kalos is doable too but different. Because the plats are on the side and much higher, Little Mac has to do a ledge drop -> ledge jump, his ledge jump being really high. Lol it's worth knowing for that stage but I agree its a rough one for him.

Ledge jump as a "solution" was known in Smash 4 (it was required on Duck Hunt for Ganon), but isn't really viable.

Mac's platform strategy is to mix up u-smashes and aerials to force either an unnecessary shield or a FH. That buys him juuust enough frames to maybe get away with a FH onto the platform, which he can hopefully capitalize on to defuse the situation.

Doing a ledge jump defeats the point; they have no pressure applied to them, and have a triplicate notarized letter informing them of your intended arrival date.

Truth be told, I'm doubtful that airdodging moves the needle much, since the landing lag more than doubles the time you need to get away with it. But it's still worth having a less horrible alternative to double jump, and I mean, what else is he going to do?

Thank God, on behalf of Mac and every low tier throughout history, that we are now all following the superior competitive design choice of stage-first character-second. Little Mac is the poster child making it super obvious why this maximizes character diversity.

(Now if only we had a real tiebreaker that did away with the reprehensible and anti-competitive impetus for the loser to approach. Can you imagine if any other non-FGC e-sport was subject to such a situation? Hint: They're not.)

 

[Vincent21]

Also, I've noticed how much players feel it when their character loses combos. You can see it with Little Mac and Kirby. But I feel like players are maybe too attached to their characters being combo-oriented in many cases.

This is another case where I feel the complaints leveraged against Mac are exaggerated, and have to agree with this sentiment.

The loss of some combo potential on Mac honestly hasn’t been too affecting... at all. Utilt still does stuff, and while % ranges have adjusted, there is still a KO Punch confirm.

What else do you need, honestly? Mac doesn’t struggle to build % or to secure kills... you just press buttons really.

Need %? Press jab. It’s really fast, and it hurts for what it is. You can just do this in nuetral now.

Want a low % string that can get you started? Hit utilt OOS or even in neutral. Good button, nice arcing hitbox that protects you on both sides, and still combos into stuff.

Ready to collect a stock? Flick the stick (I use c-stick tilts, but you know what I mean). How many clips now have we all seen of everybody, especially Chrom and Roy, just throwing out reverse fsmashes for free kills? Mac was doing it as a part of his gameplan before it was cool. Your smash attacks are all armored for a reason, and shields are a bit weaker now. Press buttons, claim rewards.

Have no idea whether the hitbox sh flying at you crosses up or not? Just press dsmash, remove the thinking from the equation. They can hit you and get hit, land behind and get hit, or land in front and get hit. Tech chasing with the move or covering get-up options is similarly a low-thought high-reward experience.

I contend Mac plays an agreeable, no, an intimidating neutral. He just doesn’t actually play the game in disadvantage or get anything off of stray hits that don’t kill at high %, so he’ll forever be limited by what he leaves on the table.

But if you’re asking me if I’d rather have Incineroar’s buttons on the ground instead of these ones, and at the cost of being Incineroar’s speed? I’ll wear the gloves instead of the belt, thanks. Does not feel like a replacement.

Young Link feels like easily the best link to me. Am I crazy or does his Nair give him superpowers? The speed, active frames and low lag are beyond impressive.

I skipped this, but I think it’s worth revisiting all it’s own. It’s kind of a wonder move, considering what it does for the character. Soft hit combos into... whatever you’d like, really. Thrust hit randomly scores kills in situations where Young Link struggles to close. OOS it’s stellar. Fastfalling with it is great. Pressing it when dair won’t come out but you want to try combo-breaking anyway just works.

I immediately miss this when I pick up Tink, and I probably overuse it as BotW Link by consequence. This move does everything.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's also worth pointing out that weaker shields, worse grabs, longer smash charge, and more damage/stocks are biased in favor of Mac.

Mac can realistically break shields and has fantastic reward for doing so. His ground options could barely be punished on block even with bad spacing in 4, and OoS is broadly worse now.

Longer smash charge adds just a little more mixups and fear to smash charges that turned out to be a mistake, a dilemma Mac cares about almost uniquely. And more damage/stocks means a much higher % of any game is dealt by KO Punch or played with it on deck. (Plus it's safer and higher utility to boot.)

 

[ZephyrZ]

As someone who's never seriously played Sheik nor have much matchup experience with her in Ultimate as of yet, I'm probably completely unqualified in saying this, but...

I think people are overreacting a tiny bit to Sheik's nerfs and stealth "nerfs". She's a bit weaker then she was in Smash 4 sure but I've never felt like it was just the sheer strength of her combos or her 50-50s that made her so oppressive, those were just the things that rounded her out. I've seen the comparison that a heavyweight could easily outdamage her combos, but that's kind of the point of a heavy. The trade off is that their attacks are fairly risky, with a longer start up or more end lag. Sheik rarely has to take significant risks, which I think was always her real greatest strength. She might have to win neutral more times now, but with her mobility and frame data, she has the tools to win neutrals over and over and over again.

Besides there's other ways to apply pressure in advantageous state then by merely landing true combos. Pressuring landings, setting up frame traps, and baiting out landing options are things I feel Sheik is very good at, especially with her run speed buff. On top of that the combos she does still have can still be effective at granting her stage control, as I learned when a Sheik player kept putting me in the very uncomfortable position of being offstage.

Maybe I'm just being stubborn but I'm just having a really hard time imagining a world where Shiek is any lower then high or at the very least high/mid tier.

 

[Vincent21]

Doesn’t that world just spring into existence when Shiek isn’t the only one winning neutral over and over again?

Swordies are doing it too, but then scoring kills without developing a frickin hernia from straining for it. What risks are Chroy and Marthcina and co. taking that Shiek isn’t?