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What I think will be the deciding factor for Diddy in Ultimate is how far his mains end up pushing his advantage state in terms of damage racking and efficiently KOing opponents in comparison to Smash 4 Diddy because I think he's going to fall down a bit (though still mid-upper high tier at the absolute worst) if he's sealing stocks at the same percentages he did last game without having the oppressive neutral he once had thanks to nerf of shield grabbing + the universal jump squat/landing land buffs. As of right now, it looks like characters like Olimar/Peach/Pichu/Fox have him beat in terms of just being able to just explode their opponents quickly.
Banana has been buffed, Diddy is also faster and still has good grab combos. It’s now harder to get grabs, sure, but bananas help with that. And they are more flexible now. We can drop bananas from the air, and counter from a long distance with bananas and then follow up with a running F Smash while they are still in hitstun. Pummel is also real fast now, and D Throw leads consistently to aerials if you know how to chase the DI properly.
He’s being slept on because he requires thinking now. Before, Diddy mains where’s also far and wide because he went from brainless overpowered to a balanced Top Tier. There’s been too many changes with the character. Personally, I think this keeps the character fresh, but people don’t want that.
Besides, Smash 4 Diddy mains didn’t really excicst out of ZeRo, MVD and JTails. There really where not too many people playing Diddy then, now even less so.
He’ll be a sleeper pick before long. Banana F Smash is still ridiculous.
"Buffing" Diddy's banana is a double edged sword because that means the opponent is going to get all the benefits of it. This isn't Brawl where Diddy can afford to lose it and bring out another one for backup, or Smash 4 where it was a one hit done deal. Diddy's banana in Ultimate is at a way bigger risk state than it was in previous games and the moment players start capitalizing on that, it's gonna be bad news.
I've been mulling over something for a few days now, and I wanted to get people's takes on it:
One general change I feel isn't discussed all that much is that Ultimate has somewhat de-emphasized vertical KOs and put a bigger emphasis on horizontal KOs. Final Destination and Battlefield have slightly higher ceilings. Town and City has a MUCH higher ceiling. Most hoo hahs and ladder combos are removed or have less knockback overall. In exchange, a lot of horizontal KO moves and even throws kill earlier, and edgeguarding is more effective. I think the Ultimate development team saw just how common those crazy vertical KOs were in Smash 4 and decided that it wasn't what they wanted for the game.
I think this is in part why the transition has either been or felt awkward for so many characters. Certain ones are potentially having to change their game plans from primarily killing off the top to killing off the side. It doesn't mean every character will be a winner, but it does mean that this is a weird period of people having to adjust how they view their character and their goals if they want to stick with 'em.
But what this also means is that characters who DO specialize in vertical KOs are more special now. This is maybe what is boosting Falco into a character many see as at least high tier. In Smash 4, everyone and their mother specialized in vertical combos and killing off the top. Now, it's a premium skill where high vertical jumps and quick aerials give Falco options other characters don't have.
I've been mulling over something for a few days now, and I wanted to get people's takes on it:
One general change I feel isn't discussed all that much is that Ultimate has somewhat de-emphasized vertical KOs and put a bigger emphasis on horizontal KOs. Final Destination and Battlefield have slightly higher ceilings. Town and City has a MUCH higher ceiling. Most hoo hahs and ladder combos are removed or have less knockback overall. In exchange, a lot of horizontal KO moves and even throws kill earlier, and edgeguarding is more effective. I think the Ultimate development team saw just how common those crazy vertical KOs were in Smash 4 and decided that it wasn't what they wanted for the game.
I think this is in part why the transition has either been or felt awkward for so many characters. Certain ones are potentially having to change their game plans from primarily killing off the top to killing off the side. It doesn't mean every character will be a winner, but it does mean that this is a weird period of people having to adjust how they view their character and their goals if they want to stick with 'em.
But what this also means is that characters who DO specialize in vertical KOs are more special now. This is maybe what is boosting Falco into a character many see as at least high tier. In Smash 4, everyone and their mother specialized in vertical combos and killing off the top. Now, it's a premium skill where high vertical jumps and quick aerials give Falco options other characters don't have.
I think it ties into what I said previously about Fox being the best character. And unlike Falco it's a bit less to do with aerial prowess and more to do with fast run speed + amazing up smash. For as long as Smash games exist, I believe strong vertical finishers will be preferable, because they're less dependent on stage positioning and thus more reliable. Vectoring horizontal knockback makes vertical kill moves even more desirable. ZD demonstrates an interesting facet of Fox's KO ability: he can nair/dair into an up smash or down smash, the latter made possible by the new dash mechanics. Their knockback angles are more or less perpendicular to each other. It creates opportunities for deadly DI mix-ups, especially since both moves are fast one-hitters.
For most KO set-ups DI'ing is simple. Once the set-up move is landed, if the follow-up is guaranteed, you just immediately input optimal DI to survive the finisher. But in Fox's case, not only are his set-up moves easy to land, he has two follow-up options that require radically different DI, and it's only a matter of time before this advantage becomes more apparent. ZD has already incorporated this into his play and other Fox mains will follow.
Lucas/Ness: "Don't you hate when a space mommy can just eat your recovery? Who thought that was OK?"
Sonic: "yeah but have you ever just been deleted from the game by a space pirate?"
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To clarify, this only happens on 2D stages like Dream Land and Flat Zone. Still, it means the Omega/Battlefield versions of them will have to be banned I'd say.
My problem is with your statement, "More than ever before, you can compete in every matchup."
This could be true, but making this claim based on the given set seems like confirmation bias to me; it's like you want to view Ultimate as fair, challenging, and balanced so much that you're reading too far into the available evidence.
It's really not much of a stretch to say it is already more fair and balanced than most entries before this one. Universal options are a tried and true way to shorten the gap between top and low tiers in a fighting game.
Anyway, I think that while Chrom and Pichu and Fox are decent choices for good characters, we're overlooking an extremely important part of the metagame in .
I think being bad OOS is definitely a big deal, but generally in this game with any character if you are blocking you are losing or had no other response.
I think it's worth noting that while Greninja's offensive OoS options are quite poor, his defensive OoS game is pretty good. He has a great spotdodge and forward roll, an evasive shorthop, and an extremely high and fast fullhop with good airspeed that's hard to chase down, not to mention parrying. As a result, while he doesn't have any good options for punishing people hitting his shield, he has fine options for making sure he isn't stuck there, which may be more valuable in this game, given the situations in which you'd want to shield in the first place.
"Buffing" Diddy's banana is a double edged sword because that means the opponent is going to get all the benefits of it. This isn't Brawl where Diddy can afford to lose it and bring out another one for backup, or Smash 4 where it was a one hit done deal. Diddy's banana in Ultimate is at a way bigger risk state than it was in previous games and the moment players start capitalizing on that, it's gonna be bad news.
How good is Diddy's item toss compared to the rest of the cast? In Smash 4 it was the highest of all generated projectile users, making Diddy with a banana extremely potent since I believe it was a frame 4 toss compared to everyone else's being a decent bit slower.
The nature of this game means that early tier lists are very likely to shift multiple times throughout the lifespan of this game.
1) Standard options means more characters are more viable, and there are alot of characters.
2) There's more VIABLE tech in this game than in Smash 4, right off the bat. Probably more to be discovered.
3) People still aren't even taking full advantage of the newer mechanics of the game, specifically parrying which hasn't even gotten a chance to enter the meta yet. People ATM are still just generally playing around it.
Being "weak" in this game is probably going to be less of a death sentence and more just turn that character into a niche pick.
There will undoubtedly be "trash tier" characters in this game by the time it evolves a bit (i'm betting on Kirby) but even though a character like Kirby is obviously a struggle, there are still matchups in which i'd play him and feel perfectly comfortable.
That's honestly the brightest fact about this game. The idea that the meta will be versatile.
The Japan list is worth talking about because widespread Japanese info has a magnitude higher chance of directly affecting patches. It is likely the least important of several data points, but it's going to be far easier to be on the radar than stuff in a foreign language.
I mean of course; these days our standards demand years of research, not months.
I don't think English is a foreign language like others nowadays. As a non native English speaker, being fluent in English (at least the written language) is essential for anyone who dwells on the internet or works with technology.
Also, and these are the numbers that matter, Smash sells a lot in the west. I would think that, rather than including only a few English speakers, most people in the development team are perfectly comfortable with the language.
I imagine that the developers know the importance of the global market for this game and would patch it accordingly.
...or they'll mostly ignore community feedback and patch the game however they want, as they've often done in the past. Especially this early in the metagame, I think that'd probably be for the best.
Shotput Onslaught Feint Jump Piston Punch???? This one is going to be interesting because Helicopter Kick isn't very good anymore. On top of this the rising kick one doesn't have a 'downswing' anymore making it easier to use. Only time will tell but I think the kill power on the piston punch one will win out.
For Gunner:
charge shot (though nade launch is kinda cool, the startup and limited trajectory holds it back. could maybe see use for specific matchups, but don't get your hopes up) the arcfire one Bomb Drop (but the shine and the pk magnet could both be good matchup counterpicks) The first one
For Swordfighter:
Gale Strike because it's a broken kill confirm with Hero's Spin and does big damage as a projectile in neutral probably Chakram but i think using the Ike side-b is underrated. with Gale Strike, having a second projectile is a little redundant; the fast horizontal recovery is nice as well probably the falcon kick clone for most matchups just for the mixup potential, but the cape could be interesting against zoners and the counter could be a Ness counterpick Hero's Spin -- as mentioned above gale strike to hero's spin is a true [or at least damn powerful] kill confirm at stupidly low percents (i.e. 55% and up)
Can agree with the above, Gunner's default set up is really good this time around, the buffed recovery for the default up special is very good, kinda makes the aimable one a little redundant though. Gunner will absolutely need charge shot though, their struggle for kills is still there and charge shot is not only going to be needed to get those kills, but for racking up the damage too, a flame pillar + charge shot is a nice meaty 40+ damage.
In regards to , I knew his lackluster mobility was an issue, but I feel like it's really going to be hindrance in the long run. Most match ups I've been having with characters with fast mobility, especially in the case of someone like , Doc really struggles to approach safely. It reminds me a whole lot of the vs match up in Smash 4, where Dedede would have to play extremely patient and commit to every action they did, since Sonic's mobility was so good he could just safely read and punish so many moves due to how fast he was. Thankfully the experience was nowhere near as bad as that, mainly due to Doc's frame data being pretty decent, but the match up was still a real pain with Palu easily outmanoeuvring Doc. At the least this time Doc has the sort of Ganon mentality to him, with so many powerful moves it can make people scared to commit to something in case they get KO'd early.
Not surprised Japan isn't hot on , but then again no one really is. I think the big part that people don't like about Ridley is how he's a lot more vulnerable than the other big characters, what with a more linear recovery and being fairly light for his size. Unlike say , where you can make a lot of mistakes and do reckless stuff but being a fatass, good recovery and having super armour to cover your back means you'll not get punished as badly as Ridley does for doing something like going for a side special read. The sooner people stop associating Ridley with other big characters like K Rool, Bowser and DK the better.
Someone in one of the Sm4sh versions of this thread called Bowser in that game a swordie. I laughed at them then, but seeing Ridley in this game I kinda know what they're talking about. Ridley is actually a sword character in practice, considering the utility of his nair versus the rest of his moveset.
- “Sword characters are so oppressive!” Meanwhile, our Wednesday local has been dominated by a Ganondorf player murdering his way through a bracket of Roy/Fox/Chrom.
This. Heavyweights are viable in this game. The system changes favored them in several ways like f3 jump squat, directional airdodges and character specific things like more inclusion of armor and generally them being well rounded. I'm not saying they're better than the FE sword crowd but you cannot sleep on them at all. You think you're doing well then they win neutral 3 times and you're dead. IDC if you're a swordie or zoner: heavies are a real threat.
Here's a good example of KossisMoss' K.Rool taking Jtail's Snake, Ness and Diddy to last stock game 5.
I'm going to continue being an iconoclast because K.Rool is good.
Something that spreadsheet doesn't mention about Mario's dash attack is that it has an altered animation, which puts Mario's head higher. This matters because his hurtbox is bigger than it used to be, meaning he can't slide under certain projectiles or attacks the way he used to in Smash4.
He's still pretty good, he still has ladder style combos with u-air that are very scary to be trapped in.
- With apologies to FfamranFfamran
, I think Falco is pretty good. His vertical game allows for conditioning extremely early air dodges, which compounds disadvantage in this engine. His edgeguarding is abusive.
Why apologize to me? I just like ripping on Falco whenever I get the chance as a coping mechanism for how he traumatized me.
Seriously though, I'm just not a fan of changes the developers did or even didn't do for Falco. At this point, Nair, Uair, Fire Bird, and to a lesser degree, Utilt and Ftilt for moves and the movement increase to Falco, or rather, Fox's weird air speed increase.
I've ranted about Uair and Fire Bird several times already, so I'll gloss over them. Uair used to be both a reliable combo and kill move with its main problems being a weird body sourspot that was kept in since Melee and it not being that fast at frame 10, but otherwise it was fine. They tried to give a Uair like that of Captain Falcon, Mario, and ZSS in 1.0.8 by lowering it startup, overall knockback, and damage from 11% back to Brawl's 10%, and then Ultimate lowered the damage further to 9% and its knockback is probably the same. It works, but it doesn't have the feel of pre-1.0.8 Uair. Fire Bird is a **** move. Moving on to Nair.
I don't know what they're doing with Nair. Nair's loop hits don't connect as well as in 1.0.8 Smash 4 where it had the 367 autolink angles and Fair having faster startup like in Brawl, frame 7 to Brawl's frame 6, makes Nair not that worthwhile. Nair is twice as fast on startup, has 9 landing frames to Fair's 15, and does 2% more total, but its last hit has lower knockback growth, it has connection issues like back in Brawl and launch Smash 4 if you move too much or hit in odd spots with it, and the landing lag difference is negligible enough that both falling Nair and Fair work. Also, I'm guessing this is because of the difference in how knockback works, but frame synced Nair also isn't a thing, so it lost another distinction from Fair. Nair being able to connect more reliable again would be appreciated, but it still doesn't change that they're too similar to each other as two forward-hitting multi-hit aerials.
Utilt's in a similar spot to Uair where it works, but before, it hit harder and Falco could cover the distance easily with his jump. They could have shaved a few frames off of its total frames if they really wanted to do that instead of going ham and taking off 7 frames. Ftilt has 3 less total frames, but does 3% less damage which works, but now it's a Fox's Ftilt with more range. Ftilt's problem in Smash 4 was that it wasn't safe on hit at very low percents since it didn't have any base knockback. That allowed it to lock people, but as a poking tool, it was a problem when you Ftilt someone like Mario when he's around 0% and Mario proceeds to jab back or grab you. I would have preferred that it gained some base knockback -- I think it was 10 to 14 -- so that it was safe on hit at all times rather than it being that faster on recovery, but doing less damage. I'm not sure if they changed the knockback which they might have done considering it does less damage now where 3 less total frames probably wouldn't cover that.
Otherwise, everything is fine or just needs to be adapted to when it comes to his moves where the game changer in my opinion is that Falco can actually projectile zone again. Not to the degree of Melee and Brawl Falco or as effectively as Wolf, but enough that it addressed the one issue he had in Smash 4 and that was being unable to force approaches or control space because Blaster was so badly tuned and straight-up ignored while other projectiles were tweaked. If Smash 4 Falco had Ultimate Falco's Blaster, I think he would have been a definite mid-tier who possibly could have been mid-high because that was how much of a problem it was for Falco. When you're that slow and light and you're forced to approach in almost every matchup, you're SOL. He did not have the weight to be able to tank hits, his moves while threatening, were not as threatening as Ganondorf's or even Zelda's where one stray hit could kill you very early, and except for his fraudulent Dtilt, also equally as fradulent landing Fair, and Reflector, his moves weren't protected in the sense of him using a weapon like Ike, Robin, or Triple D or that they had invincibility like several of moves on Bowser and DK who move fast, but I think they're the only two characters who have this quality.
Movement is a problem where I want to say that Falco and Wolf got the short end of the stick compared to Fox.
All three received a 10% increase to their run speed, Fox and Falco a 5% increase to their walk speed, and Falco and Wolf a 5% increase to their air speed. Fox is the only one to have received a 15% increase to his air speed from Smash 4's 0.96 to Ultimate's 1.11. Other than his lowered dash speed, Fox became even faster where his air speed now is average instead of being below-average to low like in the previous games barring 64 where it was high; 64 Fox had the third highest air speed value. Characters being fast in all movement isn't anything new with characters like Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS, but it did contain Fox where he was a speed demon on the ground and unremarkable in the air. Now he's a speed demon on the ground and is fairly fast in the air.
Falco since Brawl, was a sluggish character where he was only fast when it came to dashing and walking. Fox runs circles around him and starting in Smash 4 had higher air speed than him to the point where the difference went from Fox is slightly faster in the air in Smash 4, especially after 1.0.8 increased Falco's unchanged Brawl air speed of 0.893 to 0.93, to Fox has average air speed while Falco has below-average air speed in Ultimate. Wolf on the other hand is barely slower than Falco on the ground where he did walk slightly faster than him in Brawl and makes Falco look like the ground mammal. An air speed increase to Falco would help, but it could easily break him if it's too high. Falco with the same air speed as Fox would probably become a menace considering Falco does have higher air acceleration than Fox and Wolf and he has plenty of high active frame aerials to cheese people. A 15% increase from his Smash 4 air speed would give him 1.0695 and that might be pushing it. A 1.0 air speed does nothing, but give him a nicer looking number. Why was young Link's air speed reduced from 1.0 in Melee to 0.966 in Ultimate? That's barely a difference if it's so close to Toon Link's 1.05 air speed, then increase Toon Link's a bit.
Wolf's problem is that he didn't appear in Smash 4 where he could have gotten a chance at having his run and walk speed increased. So, dude's coming from his Brawl 1.4 run speed to Ultimate's 1.54 run speed which is 10% more, but he could have had something like a 1.45 run speed in Smash 4 and had that 10% increase bumping him up to 1.595 or simply 1.6 if they wanted or they could have given him a faster run speed instead of just increasing his Brawl run speed by 10%. It's not a huge difference, but it would have helped. The walk speed reduction from 1.3 to 1.208 was also unnecessary. Wolf with a 1.3 run speed or 5% increased 1.365 run speed wouldn't kill anyone and Ultimate introduced the ability to use almost anything out of a dash and run. Otherwise, his air speed is more than fine -- it's phenomenal -- and combined with his ground movement gives Wolf high overall horizontal mobility.
Basically, Falco and Wolf should have had a larger increase to their run speed and maybe air speed for Falco. At this point with how close Fox's air speed is to Wolf's, Wolf could have had an even faster air speed or have a faster air acceleration or higher base air acceleration than Fox. It wouldn't change the fact Fox is mysteriously so fast in this game.
But what this also means is that characters who DO specialize in vertical KOs are more special now. This is maybe what is boosting Falco into a character many see as at least high tier. In Smash 4, everyone and their mother specialized in vertical combos and killing off the top. Now, it's a premium skill where high vertical jumps and quick aerials give Falco options other characters don't have.
Falco primarily kills horizontally and sometimes vertically downward depending on the game. It's just that in Smash 4, Falco had a fairly safe vertical kill move through Up Smash and had a stronger Uair which with his high jump allowed him to kill vertically more easily. Dtilt would kill better if its angle was more vertical as in every game and probably Ultimate, it has a hit angle of 75 degrees. Otherwise, he's getting kills through Bair, Fair and sometimes Nair off-stage, and raw Side or Down Smash. In general, if you're that high up with Falco, then you're doing something wrong and anyone can kill that high up if they're that close to the blast zone. Wolf also primarily kills horizontally as well. It's Fox who kills vertically because of how strong his Up Smash and Uair are compared to his horizontal kill moves, Bair, Side Smash, and Down Smash let alone that Fox can confirm Up Smash and usually doesn't use it for anything else, but a kill move where Up Smash punishes can easily lead to it killing meaning it's usually going to be fresh, not staled, compared to Falco who uses his for anti-airing and ledge coverage in addition to punishing and killing, but at higher percents since it is weaker.
What makes Falco strong or stronger in Ultimate is other than Falco himself being faster when moving horizontally even if relatively he isn't fast, but below-average and being able to control space again with Blaster is that Falco is more or less the same in how he functions (since forever). Falco did not completely rely on throws for combos or setups unlike some characters in Smash 4 who may or may not have lost those or theirs became more limited than before. Falco had throws and moves to combo, setup, and string together moves. U-throw, D-throw, Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, Nair, Fair, Bair, and Dair where some of them are kill moves at high percents. Smash 4 Falco was good at racking up damage and flexible in how he could do so, but it was simply difficult for him to get in. That's less of a problem for Ultimate Falco who also has access to Ultimate's dash cancel mechanic letting him use his ground normals more freely and the universal frame 3 jump. Falco benefited heavily from that since his jump used to be 5 in Melee and 6 in Brawl and Smash 4. Frame 3 is half the frames it took for him to jump in Smash 4 letting him follow up with aerials even faster than before. Fellow high jumpers Diddy, Greninja, and ZSS had frame 4 jumps. Bayonetta and Sheik also have high jumps and theirs were frame 4. Luigi and Rosalina jumped on frame 5 which is 1 frame slower, but it makes a difference especially since Luigi has a frame 3 Nair.
So, yes, Falco does have options other characters don't have, but it's not really him being able to kill vertically for why he's better in this game.
This is one thing that I don't like with how they're approaching multi-hit moves where in the past, you had moves that weren't Down Smashes that hit two or more times, intentionally designed not to connect and not only did they work, but they were also unique. That's the important thing. Unique doesn't mean good, but they can be which I feel like all these moves worked fine for what they were and did. Fox and Falco's Fairs in Melee, Ganondorf's Nair up to 1.1.3 Smash 4, and Link's Fair up to Ultimate were all multi-hit moves that weren't designed to connect. Additionally, this one probably wasn't practical or preferred over his new Nair, but Brawl Wolf's Nair where its first hit had high knockback while the remaining hits were loop hits allowed it to be this both a single hit and a multi-hit move.
In Fox's case, it makes sense for his Fair to connect since Nair and Fair would have been similar moves where the difference would have been that Nair's late hit was the same kick while Fair's "late hit" was the remaining hits that could connect in certain situations. Falco on the other hand ran into the issue of his Nair and Fair being too similar with Nair being changed to a multi-hit move and Fair still being a multi-hit move in function. I'm at a point where I'd want Falco's Nair to function like his Melee Fair even if it costs him the ability to do landing Nair setups. He'd gain a fast get off me move and Nair would function differently from Fair which has landing Fair setups if you avoid its landing hit.
Smash 1.1.1 Ganondorf Nair was cool in that at low percents, you could connect both hits, but at higher percents, it functioned like his old Nair. 1.1.3 Smash 4 and Ultimate made it a stronger Captain Falcon Nair which works, but it's not as unique.
This is one thing that I don't like with how they're approaching multi-hit moves where in the past, you had moves that weren't Down Smashes that hit two or more times, intentionally designed not to connect and not only did they work, but they were also unique. That's the important thing. Unique doesn't mean good, but they can be which I feel like all these moves worked fine for what they were and did. Fox and Falco's Fairs in Melee, Ganondorf's Nair up to 1.1.3 Smash 4, and Link's Fair up to Ultimate were all multi-hit moves that weren't designed to connect. Additionally, this one probably wasn't practical or preferred over his new Nair, but Brawl Wolf's Nair where its first hit had high knockback while the remaining hits were loop hits allowed it to be this both a single hit and a multi-hit move.
What was nice about SSB4 Link's Fair was at low %s you could bomb throw>SH Fair and hit with both cuts for iirc 30%. The problem with his new Fair, aside from being slower, is if you land before the 2nd hit you get 9.6% and the opponent being close to you as opposed to SSB4 where you got 11% and a kill move.
IDK why they nerfed YL's air speed or Link's frame data. Sakurai and the balance team never allow Link to be a great character. They always have to weigh him down with bad frame data. Or in YL's case he gets the opposite: decent frame data but poor kill power* and very light weight. Meanwhile Snake has a F3 jab, F6 Utilt, Nikita and weighs more than Link.
Can someone explain why everyone thinks Sheik is mid-tier now? I'm not an expert on the character in this game or Sm4sh, so please educate me, but whenever I pick her up in Ultimate she feels like she has all the strengths she used to. I don't know why former Sheik players are avoiding her like the plague when it at least *seems* like her neutral and combo game are about as good as they formerly were, though I imagine the removal of perfect pivots hurts combo optimization slightly.
Can someone explain why everyone thinks Sheik is mid-tier now? I'm not an expert on the character in this game or Sm4sh, so please educate me, but whenever I pick her up in Ultimate she feels like she has all the strengths she used to. I don't know why former Sheik players are avoiding her like the plague when it at least *seems* like her neutral and combo game are about as good as they formerly were, though I imagine the removal of perfect pivots hurts combo optimization slightly.
I'm no Sheik main, but my friend is. From what I've observed:
she can't 50/50 out of d throw with uair,
fair chains don't lead to bouncing fish kills as often,
bouncing fish has like, half the horizontal distance while bouncing off the side of the stage (BIGGEST nerf. Before Sheik would hit you and kill you at like, 80 while you're recovering before you can react. Now, she can't reach you in time!).
Needles seem the same still, and side b is way better. But she's pretty mediocre imo. Heavyweights make her cry with how little work they put in for kills and damage compared to her. Heck, K Rool is very tough for her thanks for good recovery and falling Nair stuffing her uair with armor.
I don't even use K Rool outside of friendlies but still beat my friends Sheik, who regularly got 7th/5th in smash 4 locals and beat PGR players.
Sheik went from #1 MOST feared MU in smash 4 to...not scary in the slightest. My friend dropped her for Pit in this game.
I was waiting for Kuroganehammer to release Link's frame data then I found this thread. I've played both Link and YL a lot and am ready to talk about in depth.
I know I'm going against the grain here but Link will struggle as time goes on. SSB4 Link was a mediocre character who needed buffs and SSBU Link got handed a mixed bag. This is not just me 'failing to adapt'; he did get nerfs. As a positive his sword length was lengthened a significant amount and his swings were made wider. Utilt and Usmash are excellent at controlling space. Link is hard to punish at full range. To compensate his frame data was nerfed except grab and landing lag.
Jab f7>8
Ftilt f15>16
Dtilt got buffed f11>10
DA still the same slow f20
Fsmash 1 f15>17
Usmash same at f10
Dsmash f9>12
Fair f14>16
Bow got buffed 18>16
Ground Spin Attack got buffed f8>7 (Faster than jab :/ good for OoS but bad for neutral at FAF 76)
The problem is Link was an already slow character who lacked GTFO options. Most sword fighters have a f 5 jab. His now F6 grab helps immensely but lacks reach. To grab an opponent you have to be in the spacing they can out button Link and shield grabs were nerfed. The universal f3 helped Link too but a f7 Nair from jump is still 10 frames from SH. Link has good aerials with low landing lag, especially Nair and Bair at f6, but lacks quick combo breakers. This amounts to Link does well when he can space with his sword but gets wrecked up close.
In the past Link offset this by zoning with projectiles and Zair. Boomerang is great and the returning hit helps. Arrows are pretty meh but good at long range. Bombs were SSB4 Link's best move. He could combo Fair into them, not get hurt by explosions, time ledge getups so the bomb explodes during invulnerability, throw them down to aid landings, have 2 out at a time, break chains, not worry if Villager pocketed one and zone with them. None of that applies now. This does not mean remote bombs are bad; they're great for ledge trapping and act as a 'nuke' trap from a distance. Remote bombs are very useful but left Link lacking options in disadvantage and midrange. They detonate on f12 FAF 39 any combos off them must have the opponent in hitstun 27 frames+startup; IDK if any are true but none practical. You can however combo into explosions for an additional 8%. He's faster but so is everyone. Link has always been designed to create openings with projectiles in exchange for poor frame data. His zoning game got worse. It's to the point where MUs like villager that SSB4 Link forced approaches in have turned so Link must approach (Villager can pocket the remote bomb and Link loses it).
Other changes include Utilt starting behind Link for easy combos from Bair 1. Fair 1 now combos into Fair 2; this is a nerf imo since Fair 1>land doesn't really combo into anything and each hit deals less damage. 0% Fsmash has sword beams. Grab of course turned from a tether f12 grab as long as Shulk's Fsmash into a f6 normal grab; this is a buff especially with his longer sword and Link retaining Dthrow>Usmash combos. Jab no longer cancels into upB, or anything, at kill %s.
So where does that leave us? I am highly skeptical Link beats any top tiers like Chrom with his f5 jab, f6-8 tilts, etc or Inkling with their f3 jab, F6 Nair, etc. I don't see Link having good MUs with the upper part of the cast; he just has too much that can be exploited. He does have strong positives in reach and kill power with handy projectiles to help. I think Link will be a very polarizing character who wins hard and loses hard. As time goes on, parrying gets better and combos get tighter Link will get exploited harder. Like I said, he has too much going for him to be low tier but too much against him to be higher than mid-tier.
I full heartedly agree. Link, to me, seems roughly the same overall as he was in 4. Some strong points, lots of bad points, ends up kind of mediocre/middling at best. His remote bomb is super flashy, so I get why he's popular right now, but I would bet good money on him dropping from popularity quietly once people realize there's so many other better characters. I hope he gets some buffs to his frame data, but as it stands right now Link has basically all of the same problems he used to have and then some. Like Rizen said, his zoning got worse. I'd take old bombs over new bombs any day. And that's not to mention his recovery is among the most predictable. It isn't Doc/Chrom level of linear, but he has only air dodge and up b as his options and he's not exactly an aerial monster like Chrom, so...
Something that spreadsheet doesn't mention about Mario's dash attack is that it has an altered animation, which puts Mario's head higher. This matters because his hurtbox is bigger than it used to be, meaning he can't slide under certain projectiles or attacks the way he used to in Smash4.
He's still pretty good, he still has ladder style combos with u-air that are very scary to be trapped in.
down smash/paralyzer being bad for their s4 usages / bad in general.
Paralyzer is basically ZSS' anti-projectile projectile (for clanking/clashing things). Down Smash definitely needs at least one adjustment - she can't follow up well spaced down smashes at all because of the ridiculously low hit stun (if you well space down smash someone at a ledge you get nothing and are otherwise likely to get shielded trying to dash up-b and get killed)
side-b is bad for it's s4 usages (recovering). it kills, but I worry that people aren't going to be idiots and just jump into this as time goes on - no set ups into this move, it's purely option coverage/reads, but it's like 25f start up soooo (also if you clank with it, she sits in lag for an hour).
flip jump feeling radically different, but it's still flip jump (although if they end up nerfing groundings because of inklings this character is actually screwed, because) - it's her only legitimate kill set up she gets for traps/reading dodges now; her reliance on this move and the significant vulnerability it now has kinda doesn't bode well, maybe? I emphasise maybe because those added weaknesses shouldn't be overlapping with advantage state too often?
Finding out/getting a feeling for the long list of moves that boost kick/up-b cannot punish out of shield even at point blank (it's basically like FE not being able to dash grab rob)
Down Tilt, besides it's frame data buffs, had roughly a third of its range taken off - it's less range than pikachu's down tilt. Don't compare it to other sweeping human dtilts, there will only be pain.
In terms of my original exasperation about bair, finally figured out what they did. They altered the animation so her leg protrudes outwards with hit-fx for 2+ more frames than S4 but did not adjust the hitbox duration to cover it.
In practice that means its midair spacing/footsie usages were kinda neutered, at least when you consider the wide-spread 500 frame duration big area aerials in the game (Inklings... Swordies....).
In general the visuals of her aerial animations are awkward, Neutral Air is half-invisible, Up Air lands about half human height above the ground (from testing it still hits the same as S4). Stuff like this makes it exceedingly difficult to hit and if not use the visual indicators to adjust, particularly versus small characters.
You'll be sitting there seeing her attacks go right through Pichu, Squirtle and Inklings over and over again and be quite sad about it.
BUT ASIDES ALL OF THIS
if she isn't dealing with blatantly poor design choices for her aerial data (I don't think 2f durations cuts it in a game like ultimate anymore, it's manageable, it can be played around, but I think it caps her viability and gives her a very mediocre/mid-tier feeling on occasion) - which fortunately is the case versus like 80% or more of the cast, she feels pretty darn strong still.
She could very well still be high or even top tier. But I think the tendency for characters to be able to zone her out in footsies (even when they have less range than her) is going to hurt her a lot in the medium to long term.
The amount of single number changes I would make and feel satisfied she's "perfect" is 5 or less. With two I'd give dsmash BKB and either nair/bair animation-matching durations and would be extremely satisfied.
I feel like perhaps they ran out of time to adjust her properly (because of what they did to her bair animation, it's quite nonsensical), so if Choco falls off (note: don't want him to, just feel that there's a likelihood) as people adjust, we'll probably get buffed later in the areas she should be >.>
Can someone explain why everyone thinks Sheik is mid-tier now? I'm not an expert on the character in this game or Sm4sh, so please educate me, but whenever I pick her up in Ultimate she feels like she has all the strengths she used to. I don't know why former Sheik players are avoiding her like the plague when it at least *seems* like her neutral and combo game are about as good as they formerly were, though I imagine the removal of perfect pivots hurts combo optimization slightly.
From what I understand, Sheik hates the new engine. She got worse at things she was already bad at (killing, per-hit damage output), and everyone else got better at what she was good at (combo game, edgeguarding), while she didn't get much better at them. Her issues with killing are especially bad, possibly on the level of Brawl Sheik (though as A Person Who Did Not Play Brawl Competitively, I am not the right person to make that judgement).
"Buffing" Diddy's banana is a double edged sword because that means the opponent is going to get all the benefits of it. This isn't Brawl where Diddy can afford to lose it and bring out another one for backup, or Smash 4 where it was a one hit done deal. Diddy's banana in Ultimate is at a way bigger risk state than it was in previous games and the moment players start capitalizing on that, it's gonna be bad news.
Can someone explain why everyone thinks Sheik is mid-tier now? I'm not an expert on the character in this game or Sm4sh, so please educate me, but whenever I pick her up in Ultimate she feels like she has all the strengths she used to. I don't know why former Sheik players are avoiding her like the plague when it at least *seems* like her neutral and combo game are about as good as they formerly were, though I imagine the removal of perfect pivots hurts combo optimization slightly.
For starters, Sheik lost nearly all his kill mixups, with fthrow and ftilt 50-50s being gone, relying on just needles and weak nair setups. This doesn't sound too bad, but losing your most consistent ways to get a kill out of neutral is awful on a character with no raw moves that kill before 160 outside of hard reads. Whatever they did to his Fthrow also seemed to make it so it doesn't really combo past 40, which hurts a ton when you're a character with low range doing 3-6% per hit.
And most importantly:
Sheik hits you with Ftilt x2 - Fair x2 and does roughly 20% (Ftilt x3 can be air dodged out of, same with more fairs, this is the longest garaunteed combo at 0 out of neutral). 90% of the cast, except for like, Lucas and Rosalina takes you from 0 to 40 or higher while having far better kill options and often better range.
Her issues with killing are especially bad, possibly on the level of Brawl Sheik (though as A Person Who Did Not Play Brawl Competitively, I am not the right person to make that judgement).
Unless they gut the move completely, as long as BF exists this will never be the case.
Sheik does seem to be struggling this time around though. In S4 she was comparatively pretty good at killing, largely because everyone outside of top tier was so bad at it. Now that everyone else can edgeguard and kill with greater efficiency this weakness is far more pronounced. Sheik didn't lose much in the transition to Ultimate but she didn't gain much either whereas several other mid, high and even top tiers gained enough to overtake her.
For starters, Sheik lost nearly all his kill mixups, with fthrow and ftilt 50-50s being gone, relying on just needles and weak nair setups. This doesn't sound too bad, but losing your most consistent ways to get a kill out of neutral is awful on a character with no raw moves that kill before 160 outside of hard reads. Whatever they did to his Fthrow also seemed to make it so it doesn't really combo past 40, which hurts a ton when you're a character with low range doing 3-6% per hit.
And most importantly:
Sheik hits you with Ftilt x2 - Fair x2 and does roughly 20% (Ftilt x3 can be air dodged out of, same with more fairs, this is the longest garaunteed combo at 0 out of neutral). 90% of the cast, except for like, Lucas and Rosalina takes you from 0 to 40 or higher while having far better kill options and often better range.
Yeah, I agree with this in the current moment. Sheik is a victim of not being nerfed too much directly, but is mostly harmed by everyone else's improved tools.
Unless they gut the move completely, as long as BF exists this will never be the case.
Sheik does seem to be struggling this time around though. In S4 she was comparatively pretty good at killing, largely because everyone outside of top tier was so bad at it. Now that everyone else can edgeguard and kill with greater efficiency this weakness is far more pronounced. Sheik didn't lose much in the transition to Ultimate but she didn't gain much either whereas several other mid, high and even top tiers gained enough to overtake her.
She's still stupid fast. I haven't seen too much of her but she's still probably the best at doing the "Smash4". She just isn't the only one in the game that can do it now, so her trouble killing is now a REAL flaw in a game where moderately hard hitters are killing clean at 70%.
I think the biggest thing other than universal buffs to the cast is that alot of character's buttons have been severely nerfed in size. Characters like Mario and Sheik just had really dumb ass hitboxes on their moves. They're way more honest now which is gonna take some adjusting.
Can someone explain why everyone thinks Sheik is mid-tier now? I'm not an expert on the character in this game or Sm4sh, so please educate me, but whenever I pick her up in Ultimate she feels like she has all the strengths she used to. I don't know why former Sheik players are avoiding her like the plague when it at least *seems* like her neutral and combo game are about as good as they formerly were, though I imagine the removal of perfect pivots hurts combo optimization slightly.
Easily one of the worst damage outputs in the game while almost everyone else got plenty of damage increases, has returned to almost Brawl Sheik levels of kill struggles in a game where many characters can kill pretty early, most of the stuff she is good/was good at most characters do much better and is one of the characters that is negatively impacted by the new engine.
Oli, Cloud, YL, Ink, Chrom all seem ahead of the pack in terms of their priority and speed. Peach also has interesting trades (this and turnips are what is keeping her high tier). Overall most of the melee characters seem like they were ported in directly from melee itself.
Luigi’s tornado is out prioritizing pretty much everything thrown at it and it kills easily.
Surprising number of chars look like they have kill confirms on grabs at some %.
Grab release should be looked at. Peach comes to mind.
I’m trying to find the dumpster fire characters to figure out what makes a character suck.
Wario is a brawl port, Lucario too.
Wario is the worst character I have seen so far. Luigi is coming in second but the new teather mechanic and its throws should be studied, he has a completely different play style now. Jiggly is really really bad. Diddy is mid tier now.
YL & peach looks like the highest skillcap on top tiers. Cloud looks like the lowest skill cap char (but oddly possibly the strongest char in the game)
What the hell are you talking about? So much misinformation, "Overall most of the melee characters seem like they were ported in directly from melee itself" LuL
What the hell are you talking about? So much misinformation, "Overall most of the melee characters seem like they were ported in directly from melee itself" LuL
Remember when I wondered what Pichu's Ftilt knockback values were? Well, they were found and man, Pichu's Ftilt is mad disgusting.
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Stupid thing is frame 5 on startup, has 8 active frames, 13 recovery frames because of how high its active frames are and even if you only consider its first active hitbox, it only takes 20 frames until you can use it again. It does 8% for all its frames, so no clean and late hitboxes or sweet and sourspots, and it has 8 base and 150 growth. The most comparable move I can think of is a ground version of Smash 4 Falco's clean Bair, but if it did 5% less in return for being active four times as long. Pichu is small, extremely light, Ftilt doesn't have massive range, and this move can only be used on the ground, but Pichu's Ftilt seems really overtuned. The only thing I'm not sure of now is if it's considered a disjoint since there were times that it looked like Larry hit Pichu's foot, but got hit instead.
I had to check and Pichu's and Pikachu's Ftilt in Melee was frame 5 on startup, had 10 active frames, and 29 total frames giving it 16 recovery frames. Pikachu's Ftilt in Smash 4 and Ultimate is frame 6 on startup, has 3 active frames, and the same 29 total frames giving it 22 recovery frames. Pikachu's Ftilt damage also wasn't changed from Smash 4 as it still does 10% angled up, 9% not angled, and 8% angled down.
Here's the thing, active frames were usually higher in Melee than recent games. Why? Not sure, but it was. Melee also had higher knockback in general and mainly for vertical launching moves since falling speed was much higher and gravity did not affect vertical knockback which Brawl introduced. Damage was also higher too, but some games just have high damage while other games have low damage. Anyway, the issue here is that it seems like they ported Melee Pichu's Ftilt frame data, buffed it a bit, and made Ultimate Pichu's Ftilt which trips at low percents, is an electric move, and probably has different knockback values compared to in Melee. It being stupidly powerful is fine. It being active that long is not when most kill moves, especially in recent Smash games, are active for 1 to 3 frames and sometimes have a sweetspot that you have to hit let alone that for ground kill moves, they're not as fast as frame 5 while being that strong.
Y'know, part of me wants to reevaluate my life now after seeing Ultimate Pichu's Ftilt.
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