Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[RonNewcomb]

I full heartedly agree. Link, to me, seems roughly the same overall as he was in 4. Some strong points, lots of bad points, ends up kind of mediocre/middling at best. His remote bomb is super flashy, so I get why he's popular right now, but I would bet good money on him dropping from popularity quietly once people realize there's so many other better characters. I hope he gets some buffs to his frame data, but as it stands right now Link has basically all of the same problems he used to have and then some. Like Rizen said, his zoning got worse. I'd take old bombs over new bombs any day. And that's not to mention his recovery is among the most predictable. It isn't Doc/Chrom level of linear, but he has only air dodge and up b as his options and he's not exactly an aerial monster like Chrom, so...

I'm also bearish on Link. One of the perks he had in 4 was crazy low landing lag on fair Nair bair for a heavy swordie, on par with Metaknight. Now everyone has this, and he has no compensation. His two main playstyles of grappler and bomb zoner are both gone. He can play more like a typical swordie with the range buff, but his projectiles won't do him many favors on stage.

I agree with whoever said that toon link is the best Link since he can kill, and his weakness to shields is lessened because of longer shielddrop, and reacting with shield is harder due to increased game speed. But Young Link likely has an evener MU spread since he isn't so polarized toward zoning, or towards swordplay. He'll always have an answer to whatever they're doing.

 

[Browny]

The only thing I'm not sure of now is if it's considered a disjoint since there were times that it looked like Larry hit Pichu's foot, but got hit instead.

You know how disjoints work, right?

For a grounded attack to go through another grounded attack and only hurt one side, there's only 2 options. The attack that won has transcendent priority or did >10% than the other attack.

The only other alternative is that Larry missed. Even if Pichus foot has no hurtbox or is invincible, it would have clashed.

 

[meowth_]

Ffamran,
That’s what I was thinking too. The melee chars feel like they were ported. Wario Lucario and TL feel ported too.

YL Pichu and to a lesser extent Roy all feel like melee chars. It’s hard to tell the dif. From a programming perspective it makes sense though. The “wave dash” throwback and the leniency afforded to aerial canceling is really melee-esque (for example, a link dair animation touching the ground and being canceled laglessly).

Some things just feel very melee. For example, Falcon trying to recover from a 45 degree angle below the X axis (stage). Peach pulls a turnip, throws it, Falcon can’t dodge it and he can’t get hit by it.

Wave landing on platforms is another example. It is the fastest way to get onto a platform from underneath it. I can’t think of any reason why it would be in the game as the fastest option to get onto the platform, aside from developers poaching melee code during the development cycle.

The wavedash on Luigi is very much the same as melee Luigi, it would be very cool to have a clip of the two side by side.

I think a handful of the overtuned ones are overtuned because they are running melee mechanics. It seems very straightforward.

There are a few characters that are ultimate on the outside and melee under the hood

 

[Thinkaman]

Side Old Man Rant on patches, that I might turn into its own thread later if I get especially curmudgeony. (For now it goes here because it pertains to the way speculative character discussion is handled, but this is not actually the place to have a back-and-forth discussion. So enjoy the somewhat unilateral advice I guess? Sorry.)

There tend to be two extreme attitudes about patching, both of which are foolish.

On one hand, you have the whiners who complain and want nerfs and buffs a week before the game even comes out. This is lazy and stupid.

On the other hand, you have the people who talk like the current state of the game was handed down to us on golden tablets, who can't stop virtue signaling about how lazy and stupid the first group is.

There's not much I can say about the first group that the second group has not already said. It would do them well to learn the game instead of complain, this is 100% accurate advice.

But the second group, in making their (accurate) righteous assertions, tends to overstep into implying a state of perfection in the status quo, rather than merely making a statement about the relationship between competitors and the game they have agreed to compete in.

Developers constantly work on balance, and the state of the game we get is the arbitrary state of things at the time of release. There's nothing intrinsically official about it beyond being official by fiat. 64 released with different balance in all 3 regions. Melee released with different balance in PAL. The developers just keep working, and push out the latest updates as the system allows them.

The only difference in this patch era is that now we have more opportunities for the latest version than just the European release. It's helpful to remember that except for 1.1.5 ("the final balance patch") and followup 1.1.6, all Smash 4 balance patches just tagged along with other content--the WiiU release, DLC character releases, DLC stage releases. And no DLC released without a balance update. They simply push (include) the latest balance changes whenever they have another major update.

The internal balance change branch is changed weekly, if not daily. It no doubt already has many small adjustments past what the game released with, because balance work never stops. The internal version of the game at this moment on December 28th is surely slightly improved and slightly more fair than the one that released on December 7th, just as that one was surely improved over the one they had on November 7th. The only reason we are all still playing with the December 7th/13th version and not getting updates every week is obvious logistical issues.

It is very likely that we will get a slate of balance updates with Piranha Plant, which I'm guessing is due in Feburary. And on that day, we'll just be updated from our arbitrary Dec. 7th state of balance to the equally-arbitrary-but-improved Feb. X-th state of balance. Some people in the second group will complain, but complaining will be just as wrong then as it is for the "omg needs nerf" group now. There will be empty statements of "2 months isn't enough time for the meta to settle!", advocating unironically that a game made with 2 months of public data is somehow worse than a game made with 0 months.

Healthy eSports patch rapidly, every 2-4 weeks depending on the title. The idea of "patching too much" is a hypothetical problem that I'm not aware of happening in any competitive game ever, much less Smash and the 9-10 week average patches we saw with Smash 4. We didn't need "more data" or "the meta to settle" to nerf pre-patch Rosa or pre-patch Diddy--and the sooner they could be fixed, the sooner we could move on to developing and enjoying the actual long-term game.

But that will come when it does, and none of us have the data or crystal ball required to know what obstacles Ultimate will need adjusted. Until then, just listen to Armada and try to improve instead of johning.

 

[Ajani]

Remember when I wondered what Pichu's Ftilt knockback values? Well, they were found and man, Pichu's Ftilt is mad disgusting.

Some of Pichu hitbox data

Ftilt
Self damage: 0.7
Damage: 8
Angle: 361
KBG: 150
BKB: 5

Fsmash
Self damage: 1.5

Multi-hit
Damage: 2
Angle: 361
KBG: 50
BKB: 10

Final hit
Damage: 8
Angle: 361
KBG: 123
BKB: 68

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) December 28, 2018

Stupid thing is frame 5 on startup, has 8 active frames, 13 recovery frames because of how high its active frames are and even if you only consider its first active hitbox, it only takes 20 frames until you can use it again. It does 8% for all its frames, so no clean and late hitboxes or sweet and sourspots, and it has 8 base and 150 growth. The most comparable move I can think of is a ground version of Smash 4 Falco's clean Bair, but if it did 5% less in return for being active four times as long. Pichu is small, extremely light, Ftilt doesn't have massive range, and this move can only be used on the ground, but Pichu's Ftilt seems really overtuned. The only thing I'm not sure of now is if it's considered a disjoint since there were times that it looked like Larry hit Pichu's foot, but got hit instead.

I had to check and Pichu's and Pikachu's Ftilt in Melee was frame 5 on startup, had 10 active frames, and 29 total frames giving it 16 recovery frames. Pikachu's Ftilt in Smash 4 and Ultimate is frame 6 on startup, has 3 active frames, and the same 29 total frames giving it 22 recovery frames. Pikachu's Ftilt damage also wasn't changed from Smash 4 as it still does 10% angled up, 9% not angled, and 8% angled down.

Here's the thing, active frames were usually higher in Melee than recent games. Why? Not sure, but it was. Melee also had higher knockback in general and mainly for vertical launching moves since falling speed was much higher and gravity did not affect vertical knockback which Brawl introduced. Damage was also higher too, but some games just have high damage while other games have low damage. Anyway, the issue here is that it seems like they ported Melee Pichu's Ftilt frame data, buffed it a bit, and made Ultimate Pichu's Ftilt which trips at low percents, is an electric move, and probably has different knockback values compared to in Melee. It being stupidly powerful is fine. It being active that long is not when most kill moves, especially in recent Smash games, are active for 1 to 3 frames and sometimes have a sweetspot that you have to hit let alone that for ground kill moves, they're not as fast as frame 5 while being that strong.

Y'know, part of me wants to reevaluate my life now after seeing Ultimate Pichu's Ftilt.

Insane frame time on the Ftilt. I looked up the smash directory but there seems to be no set definition on angles. What does it mean in this context?

 

[Ffamran]

You know how disjoints work, right?

For a grounded attack to go through another grounded attack and only hurt one side, there's only 2 options. The attack that won has transcendent priority or did >10% than the other attack.

The only other alternative is that Larry missed. Even if Pichus foot has no hurtbox or is invincible, it would have clashed.

I should have specified when Larry tried to use an aerial and got caught by Pichu's Ftilt. He probably, definitely, missed, but Pichu's Ftilt's active frames are a factor as well since it could linger long enough to catch, say, Falco landing after a whiffed Dair.

Quick edit here: Not trying to backpedal or anything, but my disbelief in finding out what Pichu's Ftilt frame data makes me want to question and not doubt that it could have anything else stupid like being disjointed, having transcendent priority, or holding the key to the answer to life and I already say nutty things if my general opinions on Falco isn't an indication of that. I need sleep and I need to internalize that the developers somehow let Pichu's Ftilt go through Q&A.

I looked up the smash directory but there seems to be no set definition on angles. What does it mean in this context?

What do you mean? If you're talking about a move's hit angle, then it's the angle it launches people. There are special hit angles, however, and 361 is one of them. It's nicknamed the Sakurai angle for reasons you can read here: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Sakurai_angle.

 

[Tesh]

Side Old Man Rant on patches, that I might turn into its own thread later if I get especially curmudgeony. (For now it goes here because it pertains to the way speculative character discussion is handled, but this is not actually the place to have a back-and-forth discussion. So enjoy the somewhat unilateral advice I guess? Sorry.)

There tend to be two extreme attitudes about patching, both of which are foolish.

On one hand, you have the whiners who complain and want nerfs and buffs a week before the game even comes out. This is lazy and stupid.

On the other hand, you have the people who talk like the current state of the game was handed down to us on golden tablets, who can't stop virtue signaling about how lazy and stupid the first group is.

There's not much I can say about the first group that the second group has not already said. It would do them well to learn the game instead of complain, this is 100% accurate advice.

But the second group, in making their (accurate) righteous assertions, tends to overstep into implying a state of perfection in the status quo, rather than merely making a statement about the relationship between competitors and the game they have agreed to compete in.

Developers constantly work on balance, and the state of the game we get is the arbitrary state of things at the time of release. There's nothing intrinsically official about it beyond being official by fiat. 64 released with different balance in all 3 regions. Melee released with different balance in PAL. The developers just keep working, and push out the latest updates as the system allows them.

The only difference in this patch era is that now we have more opportunities for the latest version than just the European release. It's helpful to remember that except for 1.1.5 ("the final balance patch") and followup 1.1.6, all Smash 4 balance patches just tagged along with other content--the WiiU release, DLC character releases, DLC stage releases. And no DLC released without a balance update. They simply push (include) the latest balance changes whenever they have another major update.

The internal balance change branch is changed weekly, if not daily. It no doubt already has many small adjustments past what the game released with, because balance work never stops. The internal version of the game at this moment on December 28th is surely slightly improved and slightly more fair than the one that released on December 7th, just as that one was surely improved over the one they had on November 7th. The only reason we are all still playing with the December 7th/13th version and not getting updates every week is obvious logistical issues.

It is very likely that we will get a slate of balance updates with Piranha Plant, which I'm guessing is due in Feburary. And on that day, we'll just be updated from our arbitrary Dec. 7th state of balance to the equally-arbitrary-but-improved Feb. X-th state of balance. Some people in the second group will complain, but complaining will be just as wrong then as it is for the "omg needs nerf" group now. There will be empty statements of "2 months isn't enough time for the meta to settle!", advocating unironically that a game made with 2 months of public data is somehow worse than a game made with 0 months.

Healthy eSports patch rapidly, every 2-4 weeks depending on the title. The idea of "patching too much" is a hypothetical problem that I'm not aware of happening in any competitive game ever, much less Smash and the 9-10 week average patches we saw with Smash 4. We didn't need "more data" or "the meta to settle" to nerf pre-patch Rosa or pre-patch Diddy--and the sooner they could be fixed, the sooner we could move on to developing and enjoying the actual long-term game.

But that will come when it does, and none of us have the data or crystal ball required to know what obstacles Ultimate will need adjusted. Until then, just listen to Armada and try to improve instead of johning.

Strongly agree here. People against patches will bring up games that have survived a long time without patches (like melee), or times where early impressions were horribly off (like brawl), but many many games have died because of crippling flaws that simply never got worked on even once. Can't imagine what Smash 4 would have turned into if people just "learned to deal with" Diddy Kong. The game was flawed after the final patch, but it was less flawed than before the first.

 

[bc1910]

She's still stupid fast. I haven't seen too much of her but she's still probably the best at doing the "Smash4". She just isn't the only one in the game that can do it now, so her trouble killing is now a REAL flaw in a game where moderately hard hitters are killing clean at 70%.

I think the biggest thing other than universal buffs to the cast is that alot of character's buttons have been severely nerfed in size. Characters like Mario and Sheik just had really dumb *** hitboxes on their moves. They're way more honest now which is gonna take some adjusting.

Agreed, and Sheik’s neutral is still stellar. Likely one of the best in the game. With the general speed buffs and damage/frame data buffs to other projectiles she can’t needle camp as effectively any more, but I feel like this is fair for a character who is rich with approaching options.

Her Dthrow accomplishes a lot of what her old Fthrow used to. With good DI it’ll combo into Fair until at least 80% on most of the cast, you can probably get Nair and Uair as well. Her edgeguarding, despite being relatively worse, is still really strong. Vanish in particular can force airdodges and put the opponent in awful positions no matter where they were coming in from since Sheik can go the ledge to cancel the ending lag, then ledgedrop Bair to catch the airdodge.

I’m having a lot of fun with her tbh. Her new weight makes her super fragile though, holy moly.

 

[BunbUn129]

Points made about Sheik are valid but there's one important nerf that wasn't mentioned: standing grab went from FAF 28 to 37. Dash and pivot grabs got more start-up with similar ending lag nerfs. The standing grab nerf alone is probably the greatest blow, where previously she could just throw out a second grab if you spot-dodged. Her main source of damage and KO set-ups has become a non-factor in the new engine. She's even lighter so whiffed grabs are going to hurt. Doesn't help that all of her common follow-up options (fair, nair, tilts) deal less damage.

Rather than weakening her KO set-ups alone, the devs went a step further and nerfed her neutral options and especially her damage racking ability. Fair, nair, and tilts are all her main OoS, combo, and neutral options and they got damage nerfs.

Sheik is fast. And boring.

 

[DJ3DS]

I think I'd like to update my initially pessimistic views on in light of having played more.

Going into Ultimate I was very pessimistic about the character for (largely) one reason: he lost the strength of his grab game, with no more down throw up air kills and up throw being noticeably weaker. Coming from smash 4, where my playstyle as the character was largely built around being super safe to avoid being hit by the blender that was his atrocious disadvantage, losing these safe, consistent kill options felt really bad.

As has been said countless times already though, Ultimate is a new game and Ultimate ROB is not the same character. He has a lot of important buffs and his playstyle has required some adjusting but I'm optimistic for the little guy now. To discuss a few major changes:

General: Campy, super safe ROB is still living but I have found success trying to work more aggression into my play, especially offstage. The increase in speed coupled with ROBs good grounded frame data and fast F-Air / U-Air allows him to genuinely be more aggressive now, and it's less of a risk because I honestly think his disadvantage is better in this game. The mechanics changes make ROB a strong, versatile edge-guarder, easily sniping offstage recoveries with laser/gyro but also being very good at going out and intercepting them himself with his equivalent of 8 mid-air jumps.

N-Air: ROBs N-Air got a host of changes, most namely increased range, faster start-up and reduced end-lag. It was already a decent move but it's now really good and once it's going doesn't care about a lot of things due to the huge disjoint.

Side B: This buff is huge. Side B went from a relatively useless special to one of his best; it has faster start-up, the hits link significantly better, and it has increased damage and knockback. The priority is also good, and it's a scary edge-guarding option as well as being great for catching rolls.

D-Tilt: Man, this move is great now. It was already a good, fast frame 3 poke but it is now so, so versatile. At low percents it chains into itself from standing for easy damage, and you can follow up with a sh f-air, f-tilt or gyro shot to keep it going. At somewhat higher percents it chains into itself while running across the stage - if the opponent is between you and a gyro and you hit them with this around 90%, it's a KO because you chain them until they hit the gyro and get a free smash attack. At even higher percents (ranging from 95% for Pichu to 139% for Bowser) it knocks them down giving a guaranteed up smash kill if they don't tech.

- - - - -

tl;dr: ROB has lost easy and safe kill options in favour of otherwise being pretty much universally better. He has speed, combos (including some z-drop zero to deaths that are hard to do but incredibly cool) and just a lot more interesting setups than before, coupled with some of the better edge-guarding in the game. How things shake out for him long term is hard to predict; some matchups now seem much harder (basically any FE character, Pikachu, Pichu) but a lot of the incredibly oppressive ones he had to deal with before have been made more manageable. It's difficult to say how parrying will affect him long term - it will make zoning exclusively as ROB weaker (though his edgeguarding won't suffer for it) but will again make him more potent out of shield which is one of his issues so it will be interesting to see.

 

[Diddy Kong]

What the hell are you talking about? So much misinformation, "Overall most of the melee characters seem like they were ported in directly from melee itself" LuL

>Diddy a mid tier character as well
I couldn't.

Also Lord, Link's frame data... Am so sorry for you guys </3 This is just terrible.

Sheik also indeed has suffered a lot. I feel she's overnerfed, much like pre-patched Smash 4 Marth.

 

[Ginsai]

>Diddy a mid tier character as well
I couldn't.

Also Lord, Link's frame data... Am so sorry for you guys </3 This is just terrible.

Sheik also indeed has suffered a lot. I feel she's overnerfed, much like pre-patched Smash 4 Marth.

So they sacrificed Links frame data and exchanged gave him the strongest forward smash? Not worth.

 

[Tri Knight]

Also Lord, Link's frame data... Am so sorry for you guys </3 This is just terrible

Used to it at this point... His frame data is the only reason why I consider the remote bombs a nerf overall right now. It's got great potential, of course. But it took away his ability to spam bombs, which means he cant put out nearly as many hit boxes. This was extremely important because it somewhat made up for his lack of quick options. Now the new bombs have moved him towards a psuedo trap based style KIND of similar to Snake but not as good, and his overall grounded frame data is barely adequate enough to fight with his sword.

I would have loved to see them buff his ground frame data now that they nerfed his ability to spam projectiles, and for a while I thought that's what they were going for: nerf Link's ability to spam by giving him a nuke, but make him a better sword fighter overall. Frame 6 jab, for starters, would have made a HUGE difference for him - instead they nerfed it. The only real buff he got to his sword is the range, and that's only slightly.

At the very least, those remote bombs are incredible for killing and edge guarding.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So they sacrificed Links frame data and exchanged gave him the strongest forward smash? Not worth.

They sacrificed his frame data in a game that mostly relies on movement and fast approaches and what not. Very unfortunate. Luckily the other 2 Links look solid, especially Toon Link.

 

[Ginsai]

They sacrificed his frame data in a game that mostly relies on movement and fast approaches and what not. Very unfortunate. Luckily the other 2 Links look solid, especially Toon Link.

Yikes, I hope they give him a buff. I think they should make his down B specifically for pulling bombs and give him two the round bomb and a square bomb like BOTW and have his donate action as Block + special. Similar to inklings ink filling. I like how the other two play as well. I haven’t touched Toon Link, I do like Young Link, even though it’s not a big deal of what they final smashes are I’m highly disappointed how lazy they did Young Links final smash. Perfect opportunity to use Fierce Diety.

 

[BunbUn129]

Speaking of Link I think there's a missed opportunity to make him more unique. It'd be fitting to change his up b to Revali's Gale, and yeah this sounds crazy but maybe give him the ability to glide after it. Not only that, but allow him to drop bombs while gliding. If executed well it could make him much more interesting without handing him a broken option.

 

[Ginsai]

Speaking of Link I think there's a missed opportunity to make him more unique. It'd be fitting to change his up b to Revali's Gale, and yeah this sounds crazy but maybe give him the ability to glide after it. Not only that, but allow him to drop bombs while gliding. If executed well it could make him much more interesting without handing him a broken option.

Maybe, how his up b as a kill option currently though? They could just give him the option to glide using his glider if you hold the jump button similar to peach except he slowly falls instead of stalls.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'd give him the ability to glide and have a stamina meter visible, once it empties he enters free fall. I'd also make it that you can cancel the glide but his only option after it is a falling strike (akin to glide attacks in Brawl) based on his falling attack from the games.

It would've definitely added an interesting dynamic to his playstyle. It's weird and a bit sad that they didn't go all out to make him like BotW Link. Edit: especially since we have two other versions of Link with more or less the same up b. Could've used some variety.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The one change I'd apply from BotW to Ultimate Link is the way his arrows work. Why not give his arrows a automatic track mechanic when you shoot them from the air? I would also give Up B slight super armor frames, especially when the attack is active. 6 frame jab with more reach and hitstun would also be ideal. Maybe a one swing F Air could help him having a better 'get off me' move. D Air could also use super armor?

Again, wasted potential. Just like every other version of Link so far.

 

[Tri Knight]

It's like they give him the tools to be good but not the means to be great. But who knows, some high level players seem to think hes high tier

 

[zeldasmash]

Hopefully with patches they make Link's frame data better. He's got a lot of good things: Remote Bombs are one of the deadliest edge-guarding tools in the entire game which is very important for a game that emphasizes edge-guarding, Link as a whole is one of the best edge-guarders in the game, he hits like a truck, does a lot of damage and his range is among the best in the game. Like Rizen said, too much going for him to be low tier, but too many faults to be high tier. High-mid seems a good place for him at the moment. And I think he's one of the more fun characters in the game to play, in my opinion.

I think they hit a bit of an identity crisis with him mid-way through developing him. They made him less spammy but they didn't give him the frame data to compensate so we're left with a character with a lesser ability to zone compared to Young Link, can't rush down or space as well as other swordies like Chrom, so what is Link's overall game plan? From what I can tell, it seems to be based on traps and set-play like Snake, but why use him over Snake who has the frame data to back him up when he's in a corner?

He's kinda going what Samus went through in Smash 4 for a moment early in it's lifespan, he's just outclassed. Not bad at all, it's just that other characters can do what he can do better (Chrom, Young Link, Snake).

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yes that was the spreadsheet I was going by, it is beautifully done and very helpful.

Something I've noticed is that Fox's uptilt is frame 3 upstart. That is insane right, considering that his utilt can kill?

I'm guessing frame data may not be every thing? Because top characters seem like they are slower than mid tier ones and yet are ranked higher.

Please note I am new to this and just trying to learn so I apologize in advance for the many questions

Well U-tilt won't ko until very late percents. It's less absurd than Smash4 where it killed at 200+, but still. Fox is better off going for shine gimps offstage - the move got back its low diagonal trajectory, cools down faster, and hits on frame 3 now - or confirms into u-smash or b-air. He's also got a lot of juggling potential (nearly all his moves pop the opponent up, with some important exceptions that help throw off the opponents DI), so he can kill off the top pretty early as well.

U-tilt is more of a combo move, it is good to keep in mind when you've racked up absurd percent and haven't found the KO yet. But it's not exactly ideal as a ko move.

EDIT: and yeah frame data is not everything, Smash isn't just a numbers game even if those numbers are good to know, there's much more to consider during a match... you also have to consider movement options, range, safety on shield, duration of hitbox(es), and so on

another edit; if you wanna talk about a gross up-tilt, Snake's is frame 6 and KOs at like 110% lol

 

[Ginsai]

I'd give him the ability to glide and have a stamina meter visible, once it empties he enters free fall. I'd also make it that you can cancel the glide but his only option after it is a falling strike (akin to glide attacks in Brawl) based on his falling attack from the games.

It would've definitely added an interesting dynamic to his playstyle. It's weird and a bit sad that they didn't go all out to make him like BotW Link. Edit: especially since we have two other versions of Link with more or less the same up b. Could've used some variety.

Could the option be open to keep grounded down b as his spin which he still does in BOTW but air

Hopefully with patches they make Link's frame data better. He's got a lot of good things: Remote Bombs are one of the deadliest edge-guarding tools in the entire game which is very important for a game that emphasizes edge-guarding, Link as a whole is one of the best edge-guarders in the game, he hits like a truck, does a lot of damage and his range is among the best in the game. Like Rizen said, too much going for him to be low tier, but too many faults to be high tier. High-mid seems a good place for him at the moment.

I think they hit a bit of an identity crisis with him mid-way through developing him. They made him less spammy but they didn't give him the frame data to compensate so we're left with a character with a lesser ability to zone compared to Young Link, can't rush down or space as well as other swordies like Chrom, so what is Link's overall game plan? From what I can tell, it seems to be based on traps and set-play like Snake, but why use him over Snake who has the frame data to back him up when he's in a corner?

He's kinda going what Samus went through in Smash 4 for a moment early in it's lifespan, he's just outclassed. Not bad at all, it's just that other characters can do what he can do much better (Chrom, Young Link, Snake).

I know they we are discussing link but I think they should give Samus prime features. They have inkling a tool to fill ink why not give Samus one for beam types? Press and hold shield and special while tilting the stick a direction of the beam type you want but don’t give her all beams. Give her Plasma, Wave, Power, Dark, and Light.

 

[Omastar]

Ok I removed the message for you, sorry

Oh man, my bad I didn't want to seem like an ass or anything. Some of your opinions were off base a little bit. Sorry my guy.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Giving BotW Link a 3 frame jumpsquat only, imo, is already a buff that compensates for all the nerfs he got. He can much more effectively swing in midair. Many Link mains in SSB4 has agreed that a 3 frame jumpsquat on SSB4 Link is a humongous buff. Even then, his small frame data nerfs is somewhat compensated by dash canceling being a thing, and his zoning is somewhat patched out by his Boomerang being a normal Boomerang (not sure why no one is mentioning this).

From what I see, they slightly nerfed his OoS options and zoning potential, although both still exist, while at the same time giving him a lot of brand new tools different from all the other sword characters. For now, I am going to stick with top player views of him being high or even top tier.

 

[DavemanCozy]

his zoning is somewhat patched out by his Boomerang being a normal Boomerang (not sure why no one is mentioning this).

Honestly I'm glad he finally got a regular boomerang. The gale boomerang usually ended up causing more problems for Link himself than his opponents. From personal experience I remember seeing more times where an opponent would use the boomerang's wind coming back to Link as a boost to their approach rather than Link using it to his advantage.

 

[Browny]

Healthy eSports patch rapidly, every 2-4 weeks depending on the title. The idea of "patching too much" is a hypothetical problem that I'm not aware of happening in any competitive game ever, much less Smash and the 9-10 week average patches we saw with Smash 4. We didn't need "more data" or "the meta to settle" to nerf pre-patch Rosa or pre-patch Diddy--and the sooner they could be fixed, the sooner we could move on to developing and enjoying the actual long-term game.

Yep. So much of the anti-patch sentiment is based on literally no evidence and no precedent whatsoever.

I often feel like I'm an outlier, I'd be more than happy if this game was patched every few months for its entire existence to balance things. It also bugs me how people assume that wanting that makes someone 'casual' or not wanting to learn. I come from a very long competitive gaming background across all sorts of games. Games which are patched regularly where literally no one complained because the issues were obvious. I can't help but feel that Armadas opinion on 'patch' culture would be very, very different if he competed in anything other than smash bros.

It doesn't take much effort to realise that Inklings upb ledgesnap is BROKEN and needs to be fixed. Chroms upb killing without the enemy being anywhere near the blastzone is BROKEN and needs to be fixed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yep. So much of the anti-patch sentiment is based on literally no evidence and no precedent whatsoever.

I often feel like I'm an outlier, I'd be more than happy if this game was patched every few months for its entire existence to balance things. It also bugs me how people assume that wanting that makes someone 'casual' or not wanting to learn. I come from a very long competitive gaming background across all sorts of games. Games which are patched regularly where literally no one complained because the issues were obvious. I can't help but feel that Armadas opinion on 'patch' culture would be very, very different if he competed in anything other than smash bros.

It doesn't take much effort to realise that Inklings upb ledgesnap is BROKEN and needs to be fixed. Chroms upb killing without the enemy being anywhere near the blastzone is BROKEN and needs to be fixed.

To counter (but not really) this, NRS games are often criticized for having large balance patches go on every 1-2 weeks (GRANTED they have since reduced this to like, bi-monthly sometimes and its not an issue now), but patching too much is very RARE albeit very possible! I doubt it'll be an issue here though.

I'd more like the idea of seasonal balance patches (ala SF5) where its like, every couple of months to a year, since that usually gives people time to find things, get an idea for the meta, etc.

 

[Tri Knight]

Giving BotW Link a 3 frame jumpsquat only, imo, is already a buff that compensates for all the nerfs he got. He can much more effectively swing in midair. Many Link mains in SSB4 has agreed that a 3 frame jumpsquat on SSB4 Link is a humongous buff. Even then, his small frame data nerfs is somewhat compensated by dash canceling being a thing, and his zoning is somewhat patched out by his Boomerang being a normal Boomerang (not sure why no one is mentioning this).

From what I see, they slightly nerfed his OoS options and zoning potential, although both still exist, while at the same time giving him a lot of brand new tools different from all the other sword characters. For now, I am going to stick with top player views of him being high or even top tier.

I agree with the jump squat. That along with his original boonerang has made him the best hes ever been in my opinion. But I still have my doubts. You gotta remember, the entire roster got that treatment. And that frame data (at least on the ground) makes me worried about rushdowns.

He bodies all the big guys imo. But against anything smaller and faster, I'm not so sure.

 

[trickroom]

Ffamran,
Wario Lucario and TL feel ported too.

I don't blame you for saying that about Lucario/TL but you can't do my man Wario like that. His fair and upsmash both got noticeable hitbox buffs. The buff they gave fair, though it might seem small, is a massive boon to his aerial/neutral game. Throw it out some more and you can feel how many hitboxes get stuffed by the Keebler elf-shoe now. The upsmash buffs are really nice too, and serve to benefit his non-waft kill power by a LOT. Unlike Sm4sh, the move actually feels how you'd expect it to from the animation -- a Mario upsmash coming from a guy with a bigger head.

He's being helped further by his new F-tilt (a little less powerful than his sm4sh ftilt, but still strong and with a much better hitbox: effectively a direct upgrade), new dash attack with a big-*** lingering hitbox and kill power (reddit.com/r/shoulderbash), and the new lil bit of passive healing on his bite. Re-using the bike after it goes offstage and despawns has a higher cooldown which gets a little annoying, but he's gotten a lot better and, even if you don't think he's better, has been changed a lot. I'd actually venture to say that Wario, at least when looking at moveset alterations in a vacuum (ignoring benefactors of the new engine) is one of the MOST-changed chars in the Sm4sh --> Ultimate transfer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Giving BotW Link a 3 frame jumpsquat only, imo, is already a buff that compensates for all the nerfs he got. He can much more effectively swing in midair. Many Link mains in SSB4 has agreed that a 3 frame jumpsquat on SSB4 Link is a humongous buff. Even then, his small frame data nerfs is somewhat compensated by dash canceling being a thing, and his zoning is somewhat patched out by his Boomerang being a normal Boomerang (not sure why no one is mentioning this).

From what I see, they slightly nerfed his OoS options and zoning potential, although both still exist, while at the same time giving him a lot of brand new tools different from all the other sword characters. For now, I am going to stick with top player views of him being high or even top tier.

I can also believe this honestly. I was actually surprised the frame data was so bad honestly. Link doesn't feel like he's slower, yet he apperantly is. Haven't seen much usage of him in tournaments either.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

At the "patching too quickly doesn't exist" claim, from what I remember in MKX (only watched Maximillian's videos on it, never played it so take a grain of salt) they actually ended up patching too frequently with too large of changes. People weren't sure of who they should stick with, because characters were changing so much every few weeks for a certain time span and it started hurting the competitive scene. May have happened with one of the Injustice games as well, so no it is actually something you can run into.

Another example I can think of would be Hearthstone and why they patch only once per expansion, but that's a bit different because you spend money on cards and people wouldn't be happy if the cards they bought/created by getting rid of other cards were constantly changing in playability.

For a game like Smashbros with such a large cast of characters, I don't think its even possible to do good, frequent patches. Not without proper balancing tests behind them and all of that. Every 6-8 weeks would be the fastest I want said patches happening outside of obvious bugfix patches like the one we've already gotten.

---

Link I'm aware framedata wise it doesn't look very good for him... but I think the F3 jumpsquat + longer range combo is getting heavily undervalued and people are running a bit into the "he can't play the same way he did in SSB4 so now these nerfs suck more than the buffs help" mindset that some other characters like Mewtwo have been running into. Instead of doing what he did before, he should be well... acting more like an actual sword character than he normally does and preemptively throwing up disjointed walls instead of trying to combo with his aerials like a non-sword character (like he kinda did to some extent in SSB4). His physical walls aren't quite as good as other sword characters, but that's because he has some pretty good projectiles.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I maintain the dash attack change for Wario isn't a good one. He doesn't struggle with killing anymore in this engine, and almost every application shoulder bash has can be replaced with another move. It's just too stubby for what it is. Dtilt to DA is nice, though.

The ridiculous burst range of his old one had much more value and I feel like he would've appreciated that aspect even more in this game now that he can maintain a strong advantage. Wario's a lot better, but I definitely find myself missing the old dash attack too much.

 

[BunbUn129]

Y'all are arguing about the relationship between patching and the health of the metagame when this game is gonna be dead in 3 years' time anyway. <_<

 

[trickroom]

Y'all are arguing about the relationship between patching and the health of the metagame when this game is gonna be dead in 3 years' time anyway. <_<

Of course it will with that attitude

I maintain the dash attack change for Wario isn't a good one. He doesn't struggle with killing anymore in this engine, and almost every application shoulder bash has can be replaced with another move. It's just too stubby for what it is. Dtilt to DA is nice, though.

The ridiculous burst range of his old one had much more value and I feel like he would've appreciated that aspect even more in this game now that he can maintain a strong advantage. Wario's a lot better, but I definitely find myself missing the old dash attack too much.

That's a fair point, but I don't think that new dash attack is that much worse at "bursting" than the old one. At least, not enough to cancel out the benefit of the new kill power and hitbox duration.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So what characters we can agree on that are basically less viable? And potential low / bottom tier?

I’ll give some input in this:

: Mostly unchanged. Still great aerial game, but weak in everything else
: Ultimate addressed none of his weaknesses, even got nerfed I read
: Outclassed by anything that Incineroar can do, and Incineroar can do it better. He can still hold his own though much like in Smash 4, but again, weaknesses that are too easily to pass by.
: Was literally only good in Smash 64. Seems like a doomed character. It’s a shame.
: Got some new stuff but still too slow, easily punishable, can’t survive anything.
: Probably better than in 4, yet heavily underwhelming. Can get wins if the opponent doesn’t know the matchup. Which can make her appear better than she is.
: They took everything away from her what was good. Basically Brawl Sheik. Lowest of the lowest mid tier at this point I suspect.

 

[trickroom]

: Got some new stuff but still too slow, easily punishable, can’t survive anything.

That's kinda, cynical, I guess. G&W isn't worse because the devs left all of his fundamental weaknesses in (though that is something they did) -- he's worse because a lot of his good stuff from 4 is gone. His dthrow got completely gutted, his upair (though not bad) is worse than it was in 4 with all things considered, his usmash lost its armor (I think, at least) and the new animations made most of the hitboxes on his normals laggier and/or smaller.

 

[Untouch]

After playing WFT for a while, and watching (the very few) videos I could find here are my (more full) opinions. Didn't play the character in 4 so I don't know what has changed.

PROS

• Seems to do well in an advantage state, UAIR and BAIR come out very quick and NAIR combos itself itself.
• Deep Breathing is an incredible tool, but is very irritating to land in online, which is probably one of the biggest reasons why people don't use the character online.
• High combo potential, up to kill level, has a large amount of kill confirms.
• Decent projectiles for harassment.
• Decent tilts, movement and dash make ground play viable.
• Can rack up damage very quickly.
• Hitboxes were improved a lot.

CONS

• Slow falling speed (outside of deep breathing) makes the character combo food.
• Doesn't deal well in disadvantage state, her good aerials (mentioned above) don't hit characters below her and her floatiness makes escaping harder.
• Offstage play is much harder than Smash 4 due to ledge options.
• FAIR still has an odd hitbox, you have to get used to it, BAIR is a better option almost always.
• Grab options are poor, though BTHROW is a kill move and DTHROW can combo into BAIR.

Feels better than a lot of people are saying, but it's hard to judge from online play. The input delay online makes me miss Deep Breathing a lot and I'm not the only one with this problem (watching other people play her and they say the same thing).
Unfortunately I don't think she's ever going to get a lot of play unless a top player, so she's going to sit where she is right now.

 

[meowth_]

Oh man, my bad I didn't want to seem like an *** or anything. Some of your opinions were off base a little bit. Sorry my guy.

No problem, I understand

 

[Lavani]

his usmash lost its armor (I think, at least)

It still has invincibility, but it's now full body on the active frames (21-25f; 5 frames) versus smash 4's upper body invincibility covering most of the startup as well (4-25f; 22 frames). Really hurts the usability of it regardless.