Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[TheFacelessOne]

What are your favorite moves in the game? Mine is ivy's uair and dair

https://twitter.com/TheDoorstop_/status/1077654055676231682

https://twitter.com/TheDoorstop_/status/1077745521190731777

https://twitter.com/BenArthur_7/status/1077749631730241536

Spoiler: :)

Dair is frame 11 btw

 

[NotLiquid]

Top tiers aren't as overwhelming now as they are in other Smash games. Don't think they win 95%+ of their matchups like for example Bayo, Cloud or Sheik do in Smash 4

Meaning solo maining a top tier is gonna be less viable now, having at least 2 characters sounds like a must

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) December 25, 2018

Interesting take from Mr. R. I don't think his point is that Smash Ultimate is some utopia for character balance, but even the best characters will have to fall back on secondaries because they're just not that dominant.

Secondaries have always been a thing in Smash (and we got to experience a bit of that in the glorious counterpick meta in Smash 4), but I think it's going to be more pronounced going forward, and it's incredibly exciting.

Though unfortunately for me I can only really use one character all that well, haha...

Good.

Smash needs more legendary moments like this.

 

[Nobie]

A Japanese YouTube channel featuring top players has been posting a bunch of videos where they discuss Ultimate. Today, they put up their current tier list, as assembled by Rain and Shogun.

Here's their video discussing tiers D through B: https://youtu.be/hO9UQYWMz0Y (they'll do a follow-up on the 28th)

As always, almost no one can agree on who's good or not except for like, Inklings and Peach/Daisy.

A couple more curious things:

They put Snake in mid tier, but Shogun considers himself a Snake main still.

And I don't know what Kameme has been doing to Japan, but it can't be pretty if they're ranking Mega Man that high!

 

[TTTTTsd]

I had different intentions for a first post in here, but oh well. Hello familiar (and unfamiliar) faces.

Hello Lavani! I missed you a lot too! Thank you for clarifying on the sword hurtboxes idea, that's basically what I'd do too if it really became an issue long term. Also would honestly agree on Jiggs being a lot better by virtue of jumpsquat alone. Why she had 6 in Smash 4 is beyond comprehension, even as a joke character.

 

[Untouch]

WFT is not worse than half those characters.
People need to stop making tier lists this early, every one is based on how much they are played, characters that don't get played are placed low on the tier list and they continue not to be played.
It's foolish.

 

[Kellojolly]

A Japanese YouTube channel featuring top players has been posting a bunch of videos where they discuss Ultimate. Today, they put up their current tier list, as assembled by Rain and Shogun.
View attachment 184420
Here's their video discussing tiers D through B: https://youtu.be/hO9UQYWMz0Y (they'll do a follow-up on the 28th)

As always, almost no one can agree on who's good or not except for like, Inklings and Peach/Daisy.

A couple more curious things:

They put Snake in mid tier, but Shogun considers himself a Snake main still.

And I don't know what Kameme has been doing to Japan, but it can't be pretty if they're ranking Mega Man that high!

greninja, shulk, and cloud...these are 3 characters I'm interested in to see why they are in top tier. I'd be interested to know why Shulk and Cloud are, in particular, in top tier instead of high tier (A). Either way, that's awesome.

 

[Rizen]

A Japanese YouTube channel featuring top players has been posting a bunch of videos where they discuss Ultimate. Today, they put up their current tier list, as assembled by Rain and Shogun.
View attachment 184420
Here's their video discussing tiers D through B: https://youtu.be/hO9UQYWMz0Y (they'll do a follow-up on the 28th)

As always, almost no one can agree on who's good or not except for like, Inklings and Peach/Daisy.

A couple more curious things:

They put Snake in mid tier, but Shogun considers himself a Snake main still.

And I don't know what Kameme has been doing to Japan, but it can't be pretty if they're ranking Mega Man that high!

There's a lot I disagree with about that tier list, as does everyone, but it got me thinking. This game is so subjective with most characters seeming to be at least mid-tier; we really need a results database like Das Koopa 's thread from SSB4. Ultimately characters will sort themselves out through tournaments, with some exceptions of course. I don't think tier lists based exclusively on results are the best but we need cold hard data to work with.

PS Incineroar under Kirby say what?

 

[Tesh]

Is japan not allowing miis?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm trying to imagine how Ryu and Ken could be that far apart.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu is not as good.

That is how.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A Japanese YouTube channel featuring top players has been posting a bunch of videos where they discuss Ultimate. Today, they put up their current tier list, as assembled by Rain and Shogun.
View attachment 184420
Here's their video discussing tiers D through B: https://youtu.be/hO9UQYWMz0Y (they'll do a follow-up on the 28th)

As always, almost no one can agree on who's good or not except for like, Inklings and Peach/Daisy.

A couple more curious things:

They put Snake in mid tier, but Shogun considers himself a Snake main still.

And I don't know what Kameme has been doing to Japan, but it can't be pretty if they're ranking Mega Man that high!

Seems like Japan is back at their old SSB4 habits of putting Dark Pit significantly lower than Pit.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I really can't agree on Pits being apart when Pittoo's arrow is honestly really potent now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ryu is not as good.

That is how.

I've been saying it even since they revealed that Ken moved faster. That alone is a huge patch up to a weakness Ryu has, and while Ken's still isn't top class, it is NOTICEABLY better than Ryu's and it matters in literally every match up more than being able to kill a bit earlier with a DP ever would.

 

[J0eyboi]

Palutena also has one of the best grabs in the game, beating out Greninja's and Zelda's, while retaining the frame 7 startup. That lets her grab attacks that would have been safe against many other characters, so that combined with her frame 5, comboing nair OoS makes it so that her CQC isn't even as bad as it's supposed to be for her archetype.

Palu Nair isn't a good OoS option. It only hits close to her body, trades terribly, and thanks to her high shorthop, has a tendency to miss in a lot of common situations.

A Japanese YouTube channel featuring top players has been posting a bunch of videos where they discuss Ultimate. Today, they put up their current tier list, as assembled by Rain and Shogun.
View attachment 184420
Here's their video discussing tiers D through B: https://youtu.be/hO9UQYWMz0Y (they'll do a follow-up on the 28th)

As always, almost no one can agree on who's good or not except for like, Inklings and Peach/Daisy.

A couple more curious things:

They put Snake in mid tier, but Shogun considers himself a Snake main still.

And I don't know what Kameme has been doing to Japan, but it can't be pretty if they're ranking Mega Man that high!

Is this ordered?

Also, I find this really interesting. ZSS, Mega Man, and Greninja all in top tier is quite odd, as is Zelda in A. Ness being high tier isn't a complete surprise, but is also a fairly uncommon opinion over here. Mario is extremely low, DK and Wario are unexpectedly high, and all 3 Links being next to each other is an interesting choice.

All in all, I'm very curious as to what's been going on in Japan for the past 3 weeks.

 

[L9999]

Palu Nair isn't a good OoS option. It only hits close to her body, trades terribly, and thanks to her high shorthop, has a tendency to miss in a lot of common situations.



Is this ordered?

Also, I find this really interesting. ZSS, Mega Man, and Greninja all in top tier is quite odd, as is Zelda in A. Ness being high tier isn't a complete surprise, but is also a fairly uncommon opinion over here. Mario is extremely low, DK and Wario are unexpectedly high, and all 3 Links being next to each other is an interesting choice.

All in all, I'm very curious as to what's been going on in Japan for the past 3 weeks.

Japan has Choco and Kameme. It is no surprise they think those characters are good when their best players use them and win. Some tournament sharks play Greninja.

 

[Thinkaman]

Feel like I'm falling way behind on stuff I want to reply to, but my immediate reaction to the Japanese list posted (which is otherwise the list I've seen that feels most "right" overall) is a huge double take at Duck Hunt at 2nd to last.

If Japan thinks Duck Hunt is bad, that's a double red flag. What is going on here? What's the deal? Zoners in general dislike the brave new world, but I've been really enjoying DH's seemingly extensive buffs.

Edit: I do miss SH AC dair, feel the pain of the weight nerf, and see that some can-bair combos are gone now due to the new behavior. But these all seem like more-than-fair trades for the Trick Shot upgrades, the waaaaaaay better Gunmen, consistent smashes, and the recovery options.

Edit 2: Oh yeah, and Bowser being so low is an eyebrow raiser. WFT is also dubious to see down there but not unexpected. I agree with the ZSS skepticism as well.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Japan is underselling Diddy. Just like everyone else. B Tier? Lol, can't be right. Not with that Banana. He's the only character with reliable grab combos I feel.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Feel like I'm falling way behind on stuff I want to reply to, but my immediate reaction to the Japanese list posted (which is otherwise the list I've seen that feels most "right" overall) is a huge double take at Duck Hunt at 2nd to last.

If Japan thinks Duck Hunt is bad, that's a double red flag. What is going on here? What's the deal? Zoners in general dislike the brave new world, but I've been really enjoying DH's seemingly extensive buffs.

Edit: I do miss SH AC dair, feel the pain of the weight nerf, and see that some can-bair combos are gone now due to the new behavior. But these all seem like more-than-fair trades for the Trick Shot upgrades, the waaaaaaay better Gunmen, consistent smashes, and the recovery options.

Edit 2: Oh yeah, and Bowser being so low is an eyebrow raiser. WFT is also dubious to see down there but not unexpected. I agree with the ZSS skepticism as well.

I think Japan puts too much weight in the Duck Hunt nerfs you mentioned, and write off Duck Hunt's significant buffs as "QoL" buffs. Duck Hunt players are probably getting Mewtwo-itus, and not feeling the changes to their characters and how it changes their playstyle.

Japan putting Bowser and the Samus' that low is probably due to the reason why we thought little of them at first ourselves: they focus on the nerf of the few moves they centralize in SSB4 and ignore the significant buffs to everything else in their movesets (and in the case for Bowser, physics). While those changes are brought to light here, they aren't in Japan.

 

[Untouch]

I watched that video, I don't speak Japanese so I don't know what was being said (the auto-translate was not helpful), but they skipped over a lot of characters.

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

I know it's a bit early but has anyone come with their own ideas of what the best Mii special setups for each type would be?

 

[PK Gaming]

WFT is not worse than half those characters.
People need to stop making tier lists this early, every one is based on how much they are played, characters that don't get played are placed low on the tier list and they continue not to be played.
It's foolish.

I feel like it's the opposite, actually

When making anything worthwhile, you need to make a bunch of "failures" before getting something ideal, right? The "central tier list that everyone abides by after months of research" model is outdated. And I think guys like Leffen, ESAM and ZeRo have picked up on that, with their constant tier list updates.

Of course, there is a problem when the community becomes too obsessed with tier list and discussion begins to revolve around that. But having a pulse on why "X" player feels a certain way is intriguing and it fosters discussion.

"Also WFT is not worse than half those characters"

This is the worst way to respond to a tier list imo. If you feel that strongly, you should explain why.

 

[Trifroze]

Wouldn't be surprised if ZSS really does have the potential to be top tier, i.e. ending up at top tier as long as one or two good players like Marss and Choco keep playing her (and it looks like they are currently).

She may have the best mobility in the game overall when you factor in all the variables and the fact that she essentially has two jumps and a tether, and it's pretty ridiculous how safe her aerials are on shield now. Nair -2, uair -3 and bair -6, and that's without shield drop and with a frame 1 jab.

Dsmash got memed pretty hard early on by some players (including myself) because it's actually unsafe on hit at very low percents, but when you think about it, so are many other attacks in the game. That doesn't make something bad or even strange, it just means you can't use a particular move at 0%. Yeah, it doesn't lead to a kill at <50% on normal getup anymore either, which does actually impact her. Though I do wonder if Sakurage saw my old video about ZSS' dsmash 0-to-death tech that ended up being too difficult and situational to ever be utilized in practice

- Flip jump is busted with the new mechanics as an escape, landing, recovery and ledge option
- Ladder combo still works on platform stages, though I haven't labbed if there are characters who can airdodge out
- Nair to down b still kills at 30-60%
- Up smash and plasma whip got buffed considerably in their kill power, and in the case of the latter, safety due to damage buffs and shield drop going from 7 to 11
- Dash to ftilt gives her a relatively safe ground approach option she didn't have in Smash 4, forces a tech chase at a decent % window
- Fthrow also forces a tech chase situation at a wide % range
- Uthrow is a decent stock cap kill throw at around 140-170%
- Pivot grab has like 20 frames less lag, can predict run-ins with it and not get punished if you're wrong
- Dtilt doesn't suck anymore

Boost kick connects better, but the horizontal range on the grounded one got absolutely demolished. That, along with her dthrow nerf (which I welcome by the way), are the two things that hurt her the most. It's still a f4 OoS option against close range attacks and bad spacing though, which is decent considering how bad shields are now.

She's a much more interesting character in Ultimate because of the dthrow nerf and the buffs to a couple of her other throws, reduced endlag on her grabs, and getting buffed in some moves that were weak or irrelevant in Smash 4.

This was basically my original view of her, but shortly afterwards it changed to "ok she's nerfed and actually doesn't function anymore" which I think was due to Smash 4 playstyle and habits interfering with how she's supposed to play in Ultimate. Now I'm back to thinking she's interesting and promising. Would be interested if Shaya has any new views on her.

 

[KakuCP9]

Wouldn't be surprised if ZSS really does have the potential to be top tier, i.e. ending up at top tier as long as one or two good players like Marss and Choco keep playing her (and it looks like they are currently).

She may have the best mobility in the game overall when you factor in all the variables and the fact that she essentially has two jumps and a tether, and it's pretty ridiculous how safe her aerials are on shield now. Nair -2, uair -3 and bair -6, and that's without shield drop and with a frame 1 jab.

Dsmash got memed pretty hard early on by some players (including myself) because it's actually unsafe on hit at very low percents, but when you think about it, so are many other attacks in the game. That doesn't make something bad or even strange, it just means you can't use a particular move at 0%. Yeah, it doesn't lead to a kill at <50% on normal getup anymore either, which does actually impact her. Though I do wonder if Sakurage saw my old video about ZSS' dsmash 0-to-death tech that ended up being too difficult and situational to ever be utilized in practice

- Flip jump is busted with the new mechanics as an escape, landing, recovery and ledge option
- Ladder combo still works on platform stages, though I haven't labbed if there are characters who can airdodge out
- Nair to down b still kills at 30-60%
- Up smash and plasma whip got buffed considerably in their kill power, and in the case of the latter, safety due to damage buffs and shield drop going from 7 to 11
- Dash to ftilt gives her a relatively safe ground approach option she didn't have in Smash 4, forces a tech chase at a decent % window
- Fthrow also forces a tech chase situation at a wide % range
- Uthrow is a decent stock cap kill throw at around 140-170%
- Pivot grab has like 20 frames less lag, can predict run-ins with it and not get punished if you're wrong
- Dtilt doesn't suck anymore

Boost kick connects better, but the horizontal range on the grounded one got absolutely demolished. That, along with her dthrow nerf (which I welcome by the way), are the two things that hurt her the most. It's still a f4 OoS option against close range attacks and bad spacing though, which is decent considering how bad shields are now.

She's a much more interesting character in Ultimate because of the dthrow nerf and the buffs to a couple of her other throws, reduced endlag on her grabs, and getting buffed in some moves that were weak or irrelevant in Smash 4.

This was basically my original view of her, but shortly afterwards it changed to "ok she's nerfed and actually doesn't function anymore" which I think was due to Smash 4 playstyle and habits interfering with how she's supposed to play in Ultimate. Now I'm back to thinking she's interesting and promising. Would be interested if Shaya has any new views on her.

I was wondering if you could clarify what you meant by boost kick being a good ledge option. Do you mean as way to bully people at the ledge or as a way get people to stop bothering you at the ledge?

 

[Aaron1997]

Thinkaman That's surprising to me since Raito and You3 thinks Duck Hunt is pretty good. Also IDK how the Clay pigeon buffs are considered "QOL". That move is so good now, probably one of the best Combo starters in the game now. The only nerfs he got was a small range reduction to f-air, no SHAC D-air, Weight and using Can to combo break / Get out disadvantage is much worse now. People are still trying get used to the New Can mechanic's.


TBH I'm more shocked at Pacman in High tier. What is Tea and Ginko doing over there that's impressing them so much? I do think he is Underrated by the US but High tier? That's a strech

 

[Deathcarter]

Japan is underselling Diddy. Just like everyone else. B Tier? Lol, can't be right. Not with that Banana. He's the only character with reliable grab combos I feel.

What I think will be the deciding factor for Diddy in Ultimate is how far his mains end up pushing his advantage state in terms of damage racking and efficiently KOing opponents in comparison to Smash 4 Diddy because I think he's going to fall down a bit (though still mid-upper high tier at the absolute worst) if he's sealing stocks at the same percentages he did last game without having the oppressive neutral he once had thanks to nerf of shield grabbing + the universal jump squat/landing land buffs. As of right now, it looks like characters like Olimar/Peach/Pichu/Fox have him beat in terms of just being able to just explode their opponents quickly.

 

[Myollnir]

Pac-Man, Zelda and Doc are ranked higher than Snake.

Just because it's japanese doesn't mean you should take it so seriously.

 

[Y2Kay]

Hey, it's your local Greninja fanboy

Just lettin' you know that Venia Won Xeno with a bodycount of: MGW, Mr E, John Numbers, and Light x 2(!!!)

You can definitely see how the boost in raw kill power to Greninja has made his match ups a whole lot better.

 

[Ffamran]

Hey, now ZSS players get to experience what it was (and probably still is) like using Falco's Ftilt and sometimes clean Bair at low percents. 0 base knockback.

I was curious on how they nerfed ZSS Dsmash so I looked into it lol

KBG: 90/50 -> 90/85
BKB: 50/40 -> 0

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) December 27, 2018

Except ZSS's Down Smash paralyzes people, but it's frame 20 on startup uncharged, so... It probably shouldn't have 0 BKB. That seems a bit too far.

 

[J0eyboi]

Speaking of Venia and Greninja:

Greninjas only weakness is no out of sheild options which Is non existent because with his mobility no one can actually trap him unless the player himself over commits with greninja so right off the bat a character that fast without clear counter play is a issue

— King Venia ◥θ┴θ◤ (@King_Venia) December 25, 2018

Venia wrote a long twitter thread about why he thinks the frog is good.

 

[Imposer]

I'm no professional but Greninja feels very good to me in this game and I'm glad to see more experienced players talking about it.

I agree with the tweet in the above post. He lacks strong out of shield options but he is so fast. DA, utilt and dtilt all lead in combos and confirms across a wide percent range. Nair is still an effective combo starter. U air is a great way to rack up damage with juggling and drag down combos.

At 0 he can combo DA into upsmash on most of the cast. Then they are in the range, or close to the percent where a lot of things like dash attack > u-air > u-tilt > u-air connect. After that they are at kill percent where d-tilt can connect cleanly into up smash or forward air.

There's more I could say, and please correct me if I've said anything inaccurate, but I'm glad to see this character more attention. I think we'll see more top Greninja's finishing higher in tournaments because it seems like he just offers a far greater return for the effort that is out into him than in 4. I've been playing him over Sheik because of her lack of damage and kill power. Greninja checks both those boxes while still being fast with some fun combos.

 

[Tesh]

I know it's a bit early but has anyone come with their own ideas of what the best Mii special setups for each type would be?

The general consensus on Brawler is Shotput, Suplex and Feint Jump outclassing other options with some variance in up B.

Don't know anything about Gunner, but Swordsman would likely be running whats needed for those strong combos and kill confirms (the wind projectile and link up b)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Greninja definitely seems to have what you want in strong character.

Safe pokes
Good projectile
Good recovery
High mobility
Great burst
High conversion/KO potential off his common neutral tools
Strong cohesion with his kit
Does not ever need to fish for kills as he has solid kill confirms

I think being bad OOS is definitely a big deal, but generally in this game with any character if you are blocking you are losing or had no other response.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just so I don't sound too biased; I will say this:

How parry develops in this meta will be a serious factor in how good Greninja will be. It would suck a lot if the avg player could consistently parry and punish use of Nair and Fair. But Greninja's stupid good movement and autocancels allow for mixups and are still good whiff punishing tools. Light was parrying Nair, but wasn't able to get it off more than a couple times. Also, imo, Greninja's ground game already pretty good.

Also, Venia got a last minute entry to Let's Make Moves this Saturday, so let's see how he does against national competition.

 

[Heracr055]

The serious cooldown to Greninja's nair is a fantastic change for him. I have yet to put much time into him despite having a pocket Greninja in 4; however, these tweets and results for him seem promising

 

[Rizen]

I was waiting for Kuroganehammer to release Link's frame data then I found this thread. I've played both Link and YL a lot and am ready to talk about in depth.

I know I'm going against the grain here but Link will struggle as time goes on. SSB4 Link was a mediocre character who needed buffs and SSBU Link got handed a mixed bag. This is not just me 'failing to adapt'; he did get nerfs. As a positive his sword length was lengthened a significant amount and his swings were made wider. Utilt and Usmash are excellent at controlling space. Link is hard to punish at full range. To compensate his frame data was nerfed except grab and landing lag.
Jab f7>8
Ftilt f15>16
Dtilt got buffed f11>10
DA still the same slow f20
Fsmash 1 f15>17
Usmash same at f10
Dsmash f9>12
Fair f14>16
Bow got buffed 18>16
Ground Spin Attack got buffed f8>7 (Faster than jab :/ good for OoS but bad for neutral at FAF 76)
The problem is Link was an already slow character who lacked GTFO options. Most sword fighters have a f 5 jab. His now F6 grab helps immensely but lacks reach. To grab an opponent you have to be in the spacing they can out button Link and shield grabs were nerfed. The universal f3 helped Link too but a f7 Nair from jump is still 10 frames from SH. Link has good aerials with low landing lag, especially Nair and Bair at f6, but lacks quick combo breakers. This amounts to Link does well when he can space with his sword but gets wrecked up close.

In the past Link offset this by zoning with projectiles and Zair. Boomerang is great and the returning hit helps. Arrows are pretty meh but good at long range. Bombs were SSB4 Link's best move. He could combo Fair into them, not get hurt by explosions, time ledge getups so the bomb explodes during invulnerability, throw them down to aid landings, have 2 out at a time, break chains, not worry if Villager pocketed one and zone with them. None of that applies now. This does not mean remote bombs are bad; they're great for ledge trapping and act as a 'nuke' trap from a distance. Remote bombs are very useful but left Link lacking options in disadvantage and midrange. They detonate on f12 FAF 39 any combos off them must have the opponent in hitstun 27 frames+startup; IDK if any are true but none practical. You can however combo into explosions for an additional 8%. He's faster but so is everyone. Link has always been designed to create openings with projectiles in exchange for poor frame data. His zoning game got worse. It's to the point where MUs like villager that SSB4 Link forced approaches in have turned so Link must approach (Villager can pocket the remote bomb and Link loses it).

Other changes include Utilt starting behind Link for easy combos from Bair 1. Fair 1 now combos into Fair 2; this is a nerf imo since Fair 1>land doesn't really combo into anything and each hit deals less damage. 0% Fsmash has sword beams. Grab of course turned from a tether f12 grab as long as Shulk's Fsmash into a f6 normal grab; this is a buff especially with his longer sword and Link retaining Dthrow>Usmash combos. Jab no longer cancels into upB, or anything, at kill %s.

So where does that leave us? I am highly skeptical Link beats any top tiers like Chrom with his f5 jab, f6-8 tilts, etc or Inkling with their f3 jab, F6 Nair, etc. I don't see Link having good MUs with the upper part of the cast; he just has too much that can be exploited. He does have strong positives in reach and kill power with handy projectiles to help. I think Link will be a very polarizing character who wins hard and loses hard. As time goes on, parrying gets better and combos get tighter Link will get exploited harder. Like I said, he has too much going for him to be low tier but too much against him to be higher than mid-tier.

 

[Thinkaman]

The Japan list is worth talking about because widespread Japanese info has a magnitude higher chance of directly affecting patches. It is likely the least important of several data points, but it's going to be far easier to be on the radar than stuff in a foreign language.

The "central tier list that everyone abides by after months of research" model is outdated.

I mean of course; these days our standards demand years of research, not months.

 

[Ajani]

The Japan list is worth talking about because widespread Japanese info has a magnitude higher chance of directly affecting patches

Did this happen to be the case in Smash 4 as well?

 

[Kellojolly]

The Japan list is worth talking about because widespread Japanese info has a magnitude higher chance of directly affecting patches. It is likely the least important of several data points, but it's going to be far easier to be on the radar than stuff in a foreign language.



I mean of course; these days our standards demand years of research, not months.

Did this happen in SSB4? Because I'd rather not have some characters like Marth and Lucina get nerfed, or have good chance to be nerfed. I can see JP tier lists having more influence in balance patches...

 

[Thinkaman]

I am unaware of any smoking gun that would point to any particular set of external opinions influencing patch notes. One would hope and expect this (no connection) would be the case, after all.

In Smash 4 comments, Sakurai described the monitor team checking online opinions about characters, as what I'll paraphrase as a tertiary source--on their radar, but taken with far less importance than actual data collection, both internal and live.

Sure, it would not be surprising if someone on the monitor team is fluent in English. But one or two people maybe knowing a foreign language and maybe looking for chatter in it is a far cry from everyone definitely listening to opinions in their native tongue and native social media.

 

[Minordeth]

Man, I love that this thread is back.

Some drive-by opinions on a meta-level:

- Early tier impressions aren’t necessarily wrong by default. Yeah, Yoshi being top tier in Smash 4 was silly in hindsight, but the three blondes being really good held through every tierlist.

- Smashers complain about projectile characters, and the possibility of a slow neutral, but want large starting stages and no Castle Seige even for a counterpick. Okay.

- “Sword characters are so oppressive!” Meanwhile, our Wednesday local has been dominated by a Ganondorf player murdering his way through a bracket of Roy/Fox/Chrom.


On a character level:

- With apologies to Ffamran , I think Falco is pretty good. His vertical game allows for conditioning extremely early air dodges, which compounds disadvantage in this engine. His edgeguarding is abusive.

- Ridley is fine. He has a collection of clutch options (Fsmash, a lunging command grab, the skewer) with legitimately good buttons. For instance, Utilt has intangibility, Usmash is a super sized version of Mario’s, Dtilt is a long range poke and combo starter, Nair eats projectiles and is also stupid huge, Fair outranges most swordie Fairs, and so on. He’s fast and can go insanely deep for edge guards.

Yeah, he gets eaten for lunch by combos, and he isn’t really “heavy.” But he has all the tools to succeed and stay relatively consistent.

It’s hilarious that Japan has him in bottom tier, because all he needs is some buffs to become legit broken.

- Incineroar is made for constant button pressers in bracket. You just can’t get near him. At all. And he is kind of great at the ledge.