Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Nate1080

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Hello all, I haven't been around here since Smash 4 came out. Because of life, couldn't really play Smash 4 competitively (and looking at things, I didn't miss much lol). I plan on playing competitive Ultimate someday, which leads me to this thread.

I've been playing the Belmonts online for the past 3 weeks, playing countless games against randoms (usually vs the FE gang), I came into this thread to post my thoughts on the Belmonts (for as much as it may or may not matter. I'm a random) and while searching through the thread I find this:

:ultsimon::ultrichter: I have heard the most polarizing opinions on these two, and feel it in my own gameplay. Sometimes, as a Belmont or their opponent, I find myself saying "wow, that was so good, they covered all the options"; other times they just feel like a sack of potatoes. I wouldn't be surprised if their matchups end up very polarized? Worse case, they are the Little Mac of these game, and we all just figure out how to deal with them and move on. I bet they don't like people getting better at parries.
Exactly how I feel about the Belmonts. I was literally gonna write that they are the Little Mac of this game, scary how I was beaten to that thought by a couple days. They're fun to play imo, but I feel in the long run they aren't going to be very good; They look good now because they have a decent match up against the FE gang, but as soon as people start incorporating more parries into their game and getting better at the game in general they're going to struggle. I already feel that struggle because, while they play an effective ground/keep away game, their slow movement and just all around laggy moves leave holes long enough for the opponent to force them back into neutral/disadvantage, especially against characters with at least "average" speed/frame data (hell, Bowser is faster than them and even Ganondorf can pressure to them even from mid stage with side/down B and Dash Attack). Then couple that with a really bad, telegraphed and easily exploited recovery option(s) that even the scrubbiest player on quickplay can cheese stocks on them with ease, I feel like Smash 4 Little Mac, the struggle is truly real.

While I think they're good atm, I don't think good range and ledge trapping makes up for slow movement speed, poor frame data and terrible recovery in the long run.
 
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The_Bookworm

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There's a reason why Kirby being combo-oriented was a necessity, and having a lot of that combo potential being stripped is a bad thing. As Myollnir has said, it removes whatever niches he had, and in the full-character sense, it just makes him just plain bad at getting damage.

It used to be (excuse my exaggeration) "Congrats! You got a hit! Now you can combo into another hit and continue the pressure and get damage! Just a few more exchanges to go and you have KO percent." Now in Ultimate, it's now "Congrats! You hit them! Now do it again 10 or 20 more times with the worst neutral in the game." It's just painful to play as, win or lose.

And Kirby's jab is only frame 3, and suffers from piss-poor range that leaves it getting stuffed by tilts or other jabs as he runs in. Kirby IS as bad as everyone says, and it'll take a major overhaul of every attribute for him to even be considered an iota of viable.
What are you talking about? Kirby still has a good combo potential. I have seen numerous clips, including playtesting myself, of performing combo strings with Kirby.
 

|RK|

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Who the **** is letting Kirby run up to them?

Come on now.

Playin games in here homie.
He's in the middle of the cast speed-wise. With an inital dash of 1.9.

The question is - who ISN'T letting Kirby run up to them?
 

trickroom

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He's in the middle of the cast speed-wise. With an inital dash of 1.9.

The question is - who ISN'T letting Kirby run up to them?
When he says 'run up,' he isn't only talking about running on the ground -- he means approaching in general. With Kirby's stubby hitboxes and trashcan air speed (it's still pretty bad iirc), it's a clear weakness, especially:ultcloud:in:ultlucina: this:ultroy: meta:ultchrom:.
 
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|RK|

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When he says 'run up,' he isn't only talking about running on the ground -- he means approaching in general. With Kirby's stubby hitboxes and trashcan air speed (it's still pretty bad iirc), it's a clear weakness, especially in:ultlucina::ultmarth: this:ultcloud: meta :ultchrom::ultroy:.
Ftilt has good range, dtilt low profiles, and utilt is disjointed. Dash dance is good.

But yeah, swords (and Belmonts) are harder - depending on how you choose to get in.

Not arguing Kirby's meta placement - just wanted to point out some obvious notes.
 

Zachmac

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Doesn’t that world just spring into existence when Shiek isn’t the only one winning neutral over and over again?

Swordies are doing it too, but then scoring kills without developing a frickin hernia from straining for it. What risks are Chroy and Marthcina and co. taking that Shiek isn’t?
Sheik is better at camping and recovering then those guys, as well as generally faster start up on her attacks. Comparing Sheik directly to swordies isn't a great comparison, they're different enough from each other that one will never completely outclass the other. It's not like I'm saying that she's the absolute best character in the game or even better then swordies though, I just think she's still a character who has the versatility and tools to be one of the game's better characters.
 

trickroom

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so Bayo is currently putting in work at Let's Make Moves, taking wins over Sinji and ZD and that's only in the early stages of bracket. I'm starting to be reminded of early Sm4sh when we a lot of people hought MK was automatically bad because he was different from Brawl, without looking at the new character objectively. her combos look just as good as ever at damage-racking, even though they of course don't really lead into kills.
 
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|RK|

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Oh, Bayo ain't terrible. Honestly, I thought she was overnerfed before, but it seems like she was perfectly nerfed. I like how characters can box with her without the constant fear of Witch Time.
 

Rizen

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The only thing I'm wondering is if their sword ranges are any different. Anyone have any insight on that?
I tested it and YL's sword is very slightly longer. You can stand YL just outside TL's jab range and YL's jab will hit.

2 Interesting things I found: F/Bair shift your characters position slightly in that direction; you can jump>fair with the C stick without control stick inputs and land slightly forward. IDK if this would help recoveries or not. 2nd, Parries have intangibility. I tried to frame trap with YL's returning boomerang into a grab; Lucina parried the boomerang and the grab went strait through her.
 

The_Bookworm

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so Bayo is currently putting in work at Let's Make Moves, taking wins over Sinji and ZD and that's only in the early stages of bracket. I'm starting to be reminded of early Sm4sh when we a lot of people hought MK was automatically bad because he was different from Brawl, without looking at the new character objectively. her combos look just as good as ever at damage-racking, even though they of course don't really lead into kills.
By Bayo, you mean who exactly?
 

Tesh

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^Captain Zack

Lima also made 2nd out of 150 at shockwave this week.
 

Lavani

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Something filthy I hadn't noticed till Dabuz v CaptainZack: Olimar's usmash lost a whopping 19 frames of endlag in this game, making it nearly as fast as its Brawl version. Thanks to the pikmin being separate from Olimar, yellow usmash should be +2 on shield. Combined with shieldgrabs having 4 frames of extra startup (7+4+2=13f in Bayo's case, fastest grabs would be 12f) and Olimar having a 10f dsmash and 11f fsmash, yellow usmash>followup smash is quite the frametrap.
 

J0eyboi

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I think people are overreacting a tiny bit to Sheik's nerfs and stealth "nerfs". She's a bit weaker then she was in Smash 4 sure but I've never felt like it was just the sheer strength of her combos or her 50-50s that made her so oppressive, those were just the things that rounded her out. I've seen the comparison that a heavyweight could easily outdamage her combos, but that's kind of the point of a heavy. The trade off is that their attacks are fairly risky, with a longer start up or more end lag. Sheik rarely has to take significant risks, which I think was always her real greatest strength. She might have to win neutral more times now, but with her mobility and frame data, she has the tools to win neutrals over and over and over again.

Besides there's other ways to apply pressure in advantageous state then by merely landing true combos. Pressuring landings, setting up frame traps, and baiting out landing options are things I feel Sheik is very good at, especially with her run speed buff. On top of that the combos she does still have can still be effective at granting her stage control, as I learned when a Sheik player kept putting me in the very uncomfortable position of being offstage.

Maybe I'm just being stubborn but I'm just having a really hard time imagining a world where Shiek is any lower then high or at the very least high/mid tier.
Let's step away from Smash for a minute and talk about a different game: Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2. Something very similar to what happened to Sheik in Ultimate recently happened to a character in that game, namely Chipp Zanuff.

Chipp has probably the best overall mobility in GG. He has 2 midair jumps, a wall cling, a teleport series, and some other tricks and tidbits to make his movement extremely good. However, he also has the worst health in the game by far, and thoroughly below-average damage. Despite this, he was considered one of the best characters in the game in version 2.0, due in large part to a little thing called wall cling okizeme.

Basically, if he got you to the corner, he could hit you with a special called Alpha Blade, which put you all the way in the corner, cancel that special into a wall cling, then cancel the wall cling into another Alpha Blade, giving him a hard knockdown in the corner. He could then jump back onto the wall and perform another wall cling, from which point he could mix you up however he liked, and if he did get a hit, he could convert into a combo that would end in the exact same situation.

Now, this sort of vortex isn't exactly uncommon in Guilty Gear. A number of other characters can do similar things to you, and some (Millia, 2.0 Raven, I-No) could even do it better. However, this was so good on Chipp because it made up for his otherwise lackluster damage and mixup game. Without it, he would be forced to play basically exclusively neutral in a game full of crushing pressure and strong mixups, and even if he had the best neutral in the game by far, the mental pressure of knowing that a single mistake can lead to your death is incredibly draining for anyone to put up with for long periods of time, like, say, for example, a tournament run.

When patch 2.1 came to Guilty Gear in May of this year, Chipp's corner vortex was largely removed. It's still technically possible, but you have to sacrifice so much damage that it's not even worth going for anymore. Because of this, Chipp dropped from one of the best characters in the game to one of the weaker characters. Even though he has the best mobility in the game and a great neutral, his damage and health are so low that he just isn't good.

I think you get the comparison I'm trying to make here, so I'll just leave you with this match from 2 days after the game came out.


Even though Wizzrobe utterly dominates Ryo in neutral here, and even though he's pretty much always ahead in percent, he loses because he takes so long to actually seal Ryo's stocks that Ryo gets a number of extra openings, and he can use those openings much better as Ike than Wizzy could as Sheik.
 
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Vincent21

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Sheik is better at camping and recovering then those guys, as well as generally faster start up on her attacks. Comparing Sheik directly to swordies isn't a great comparison, they're different enough from each other that one will never completely outclass the other. It's not like I'm saying that she's the absolute best character in the game or even better then swordies though, I just think she's still a character who has the versatility and tools to be one of the game's better characters.
This is how I would’ve felt about this before I got my hands on Chroy, to be honest.

It’s absolutely valid to make a distinction between Sheik and the swordies, but I’m pursuing the train of thought to point put how muddied that distinction has become, and to reflect the conversation back on what Sheik is.

Sheik’s main draw is super safe comboing. Racking up % by being able to string a lotta buttons anytime one of your very quick, very safe buttons happens to connect. And that’s great and all. Swordies don’t do that, they create a wall of large, active hitboxes that just keep you out.

Or they did. But now we have Chroy. Now swordies not only create hitbox walls, but they also... throw out really fast, really safe buttons and comboing when they happen to connect. Ring a bell?

What those two are doing with nair and jab is eerily similar to what Shiek does, and sure, I’d concede needles fundamentally change how you can apply these tools... but do you need them when you have a sword?

I’m just asking if Sheik’s real problem is being outclassed instead of bad.
 

Tri Knight

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I tested it and YL's sword is very slightly longer. You can stand YL just outside TL's jab range and YL's jab will hit.

2 Interesting things I found: F/Bair shift your characters position slightly in that direction; you can jump>fair with the C stick without control stick inputs and land slightly forward. IDK if this would help recoveries or not. 2nd, Parries have intangibility. I tried to frame trap with YL's returning boomerang into a grab; Lucina parried the boomerang and the grab went strait through her.
Wow, I would have expected Toon's to be longer. I'm gonna have to test B/F-air affecting air movement. If that's the case I should be able to jump slightly further with one of those moves being used. Interesting find.
 

Untouch

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Sinji is making me think that PacMan is not nearly as bad as some people are saying he is.
 

Thinkaman

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Yeah, that was a really persuasive performance by Sinji. He would have cleanly beaten Samsora's Peach (a top notch player with a top notch character) were it not for a couple technical mishaps.
 

|RK|

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so Bayo is currently putting in work at Let's Make Moves, taking wins over Sinji and ZD and that's only in the early stages of bracket. I'm starting to be reminded of early Sm4sh when we a lot of people hought MK was automatically bad because he was different from Brawl, without looking at the new character objectively. her combos look just as good as ever at damage-racking, even though they of course don't really lead into kills.
Oh, Bayo ain't terrible. Honestly, I thought she was overnerfed before, but it seems like she was perfectly nerfed. I like how characters can box with her without the constant fear of Witch Time.
As we say that, both Bayos have been eliminated, with Tamim wondering why they play her anymore.

How things shift in real time.
 

Cheryl~

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Suarez, a Yoshi player, just caused a major upset by defeating Cosmos (who plays Inkling and is probably the best NA Inkling atm).

While this is probably due to Suarez knowing the matchup better, I'm pretty happy that Yoshi might finally get the results to earn him a place in the high tiers since he's been discussed as a potential high tier character in this game.
 

Aaron1997

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You can't tell me that Inkling is the best character when her only kill options are a Throw confirm that barley even works and roller that is telegraphed and unsafe on anyone with fast OOS Aerials. Tech Chases are not even real with Roller since its always better not to tech.
 
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Ajani

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You can't tell me that Inkling is the best character when her only kill options are a Throw confirm that barley even works and roller that is telegraphed and unsafe on anyone with fast OOS Aerials. Tech Chases are not even real with Roller since always better not to tech.
Well to be honest, everyone is having a "Top" character crisis because the balance in this game has been great so far.
 

|RK|

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You can't tell me that Inkling is the best character when her only kill options are a Throw confirm that barley even works and roller that is telegraphed and unsafe on anyone with fast OOS Aerials. Tech Chases are not even real with Roller since always better not to tech.
Yeah, that set definitely showcased Inkling's struggles to kill. It probably only went as long as it did because Yoshi is also (historically) bad at killing.

Inkling is still absolutely amazing, but I think more kill setups/setplay needs to be labbed out to make them truly worthy of being considered "best" instead of just "one of the best 5" or so.
 

Phosphophyllite

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:ultmewtwo: is definitely still very good. Having such good movement and raw power is always a good sign for a character, coupled with how shadow ball is scarier than ever and how he benefits greatly from the rage nerfs, Mewtwo is still a solid character easily.

Can also add to how :ultlittlemac: is very much harder to deal with, you have to be a lot more cautious around him than before with the weaker shields, the down angled fsmash is still the optimal choice for breaking, but with enough pressure you can easily use any of his smashes to scare people with the fears of shield breaks. Not to mention it's extremely satisfying to get a good running usmash with the sweet spot, on top of using a running up special when someone thinks they're safe on a platform.

Can confirm that :ultgnw: is still not exactly great, but I'm starting to come around to the little better changes he's gotten. The amount of harassment you can do with his new up air is really easy percent if the character struggles to land safely, and the new air dodge mechanics make it tougher to escape. Being able to angle Chef makes the move so much more spammable, which is again a lot of easy percent racking for very little risk usually. The new Dtilt is still kinda sucky with the huge range nerf but at the least it's powerful enough to kill mainly thanks to the angle it knocks people at. Sloooowly getting used to him, but he's still far away from what I'd call a "good" character, especially in a meta where sword characters are reigning supreme.
 

|RK|

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Coney has said this before, but it's proven relevant again
 

Fastblade5035

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I personally think Young Link is the better of the two. I'm not trying to sound bias but you hit the nail on the head. I think the only thing Toon MAY have over Young Link is projectile camping and air mobility. He's only 3 points heavier, more floaty, and I'd argue that he has less utility overall with his projectiles than Young Link has. Other than that, Young Link's N-air and his ability to edge guard is definitely superior, his grounded Up-B is superior for combo potential, arrows are superior for combo potential (although Toon can wall better with his imo), D-air is a bit more useable for Young Link. I'm not even fond of Toon's smash attack changes. I think they're almost even though, as I can see Toon Link being able to camp out and wall opponents a bit more effectively. But I gotta give it to Young Link overall. I really don't see Toon Link being better.

The only thing I'm wondering is if their sword ranges are any different. Anyone have any insight on that?
I have to disagree that Young Link's edgeguarding is outright superior. The two seem pretty close to me. TL's got the size, speed, and options to find a dangerous ledge setup quickly and easily, just like YL. While YL has the faster moves, TL has better bomb interactions on shield that YL doesn't.
I also want to mention that while YL has the better grounded Up-B for combos, it stops working at high percents, which YL will usually find himself at due to the nature of his moves. Every YL match I've watched or played, this is inevitable: he racks up a lot of damage, and at that point Spin attack does nothing for you. With TL, it does. If it doesn't kill, it's a free stage control card due to the way it's knockback works, and if not, then the opponent is definitely dead. While YL has the better up b at low-mid percents, TL definitely has the superior one at high percents.

Still, I agree with the idea that they're almost even. It's very close either way.
 

Ajani

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Is there a character that is a confirmed hard counter to a majority of sword characters AND projectile? Im just debating what may be an Anti-Meta pick that people may decide to pocket.
 

zeldasmash

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Is there a character that is a confirmed hard counter to a majority of sword characters AND projectile? Im just debating what may be an Anti-Meta pick that people may decide to pocket.
Projectile, I think Fox is a counter due to his speed and Reflector. Not exactly a hard counter, but can be considered one at least at the moment. Could be wrong, though. Snake could be considered a mention because he doesn't need to worry about projectiles since it just gives him plenty of time to set up traps (and his crouch can potentially duck quite a few projectiles) and his dash attack gives him a decent approach option, scaring the opponent due to his grab game and Utilt.

As for swordies as a whole, that's hard since they are dominant right now, save for maybe Corrin. Projectile users can be considered at least tricky matchups for swordies once they get their neutral going. The Link's in particular can be very tricky once they get the neutral going or the Belmonts (though I'm not sure if they will last).
 

bc1910

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I can’t see Sheik as “overnerfed” when nothing was really changed about her. Aside from some minor damage nerfs she’s mostly worse due to universal grab nerfs and mechanics changes. Fthrow wasn’t really comboing against good players in the later stages of S4 anyway.

Sheik’s neutral is still one of the best in the game, but it’s comparatively less dominant since other characters, particularly swordies, have the ability to pressure shields and approach safely with fast, rewarding aerials. Only Sheik and a smattering of others had this in S4 (spoiler: they were all top tier). I’m oversimplifying, but the castwide increase in attack safety and reward has evened the playing field and left Sheik in the dust a little.

Sheik performs well against characters that lack explosive kill power and/or damage output. Most of the best characters currently have these qualities but Sheik can feasibly outdamage strong characters who historically struggle with her neutral and advantage states like Falcon, Yoshi, maybe Sonic now? She works well as a zone breaker particularly against characters like YL/TL who don’t have high utility kill options, although the range on needles isn’t ideal.

The buffed heavies and swordies are looking like her biggest gatekeepers to me, plus safe powerhouses like Pichu and Fox since she can’t capitalise on their glass cannon status. I can see her in the lower half of the cast but probably still mid tier. Playing her can really help you learn the importance of not getting hit since she’s fragile and not hard hitting. Sheik will require good play this time around but will hopefully reward it too.
 

|RK|

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It's fascinating how the opinions have developed.

From "Fox is the worst" to "Fox is top tier"

From "Bayo is still broken & best in the game" to "maybe still good(?)"

My favorite part of a new meta - speedy developments. And also trying to focus on why people are wrong, to make more accurate predictions in the future.

For now, my own hot take: I still expect nothing from Roy. I feel like people hype him up every game, but his issue is always that he doesn't have a true sword. People say the speed of the game is better for him to do what he wants, but when other characters are also faster + have similar or better range on the strong parts of their hits, you kinda end up net zero.

But we'll see.
 

TTTTTsd

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It's fascinating how the opinions have developed.

From "Fox is the worst" to "Fox is top tier"

From "Bayo is still broken & best in the game" to "maybe still good(?)"

My favorite part of a new meta - speedy developments. And also trying to focus on why people are wrong, to make more accurate predictions in the future.

For now, my own hot take: I still expect nothing from Roy. I feel like people hype him up every game, but his issue is always that he doesn't have a true sword. People say the speed of the game is better for him to do what he wants, but when other characters are also faster + have similar or better range on the strong parts of their hits, you kinda end up net zero.

But we'll see.
They fixed a lot of Roy's fundamental problems IMO which was never relegated to his sword but his ability to cleanly take stocks. His aerials all have boosted kill power (significantly) and he can now use his best kill moves (his tilts) out of his fast movement which has also been buffed.

I think thats his largest benefit. He's still a brawler at heart but he can properly close stocks. He was never bad at low % in Smash 4 but after his opponent hit a certain threshold it got significantly harder for him.
 

|RK|

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Interesting. I never saw Roy as bad at closing out stocks. Definitely worse at it than Marth in S4, but never a huge issue.

Against top tiers, his disadvantage would get abused more than anything else. He's always been fast with raw kill power. Buffing that doesn't take away his larger issues, I think. But it's definitely something to keep an eye on, as I think Chrom (despite weaker kill power & recovery than Roy) shows that having consistent power in neutral is far superior - especially in this game.

If Chrom continues to be considered better than Roy, he only proves that Roy's design is fundamentally flawed.
 

Vincent21

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It's fascinating how the opinions have developed.

From "Fox is the worst" to "Fox is top tier"

From "Bayo is still broken & best in the game" to "maybe still good(?)"

My favorite part of a new meta - speedy developments. And also trying to focus on why people are wrong, to make more accurate predictions in the future.

For now, my own hot take: I still expect nothing from Roy. I feel like people hype him up every game, but his issue is always that he doesn't have a true sword. People say the speed of the game is better for him to do what he wants, but when other characters are also faster + have similar or better range on the strong parts of their hits, you kinda end up net zero.

But we'll see.

You don’t need a true sword against everyone. If I’m fighting a stubby Luigi or other no-disjoint brawler the need for using the further half of the sword for spacing is moot. You gain a sweetspot and arguably better UpB and lose... what exactly compared to Chrom in those marchups?

Chrom is definitely more universally applicable, but to expect nothing or Roy when Chrom is this good doesn’t make a lick of sense. Those hilt-tippers have application against a sizable amount of the cast whom also don’t require a full sword to effectively space them.

Also, Sethlon exists.
 

TTTTTsd

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Interesting. I never saw Roy as bad at closing out stocks. Definitely worse at it than Marth in S4, but never a huge issue.

Against top tiers, his disadvantage would get abused more than anything else. He's always been fast with raw kill power. Buffing that doesn't take away his larger issues, I think. But it's definitely something to keep an eye on, as I think Chrom (despite weaker kill power & recovery than Roy) shows that having consistent power in neutral is far superior - especially in this game.

If Chrom continues to be considered better than Roy, he only proves that Roy's design is fundamentally flawed.
He was vastly worse than Marth at it the better you got at the game tbh. Marth having tipper Ftilt and all of his tipped aerials as kill moves was like, such a blue ocean compared to Roy who was stuck using his tilts or his Smashes out of his walk or on a hard guess. In this game he can apply his normals better and a good chunk of them are stronger! Its a very big deal. Also Dancing Blade in S4 was a huuuuge thing Marth had over Roy but now its inverted, Roy Side-B appears to be the better move now.
 
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J0eyboi

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
569
Interesting. I never saw Roy as bad at closing out stocks. Definitely worse at it than Marth in S4, but never a huge issue.

Against top tiers, his disadvantage would get abused more than anything else. He's always been fast with raw kill power. Buffing that doesn't take away his larger issues, I think. But it's definitely something to keep an eye on, as I think Chrom (despite weaker kill power & recovery than Roy) shows that having consistent power in neutral is far superior - especially in this game.
Fine, I'll actually talk about the character I wildly defended for half of v4.

Chrom has more advantages over Roy than just a consistent sword. His ledge pressure is better, thanks to having different animations on his ftilt and jab that cause them to hit below the ledge. Then there's the fact that he can convert basically any low % hit into a stock trade, which people have been figuring out ways around, but is still an immensely powerful option.

Even with those, there are still people who think Chrom is worse, and that people aren't exploiting his flaws enough (which they definitely aren't, whether or not he's better than Roy).

As far as Roy's kill power goes, he basically needed a read to kill. He had kill setups, but none were really reliable, and the few confirms he had were hard to, well, confirm. Side-B, which would've been a great kill move, didn't ****ing work, and Bair had terrible hitbox placements that made sweetspotting it prohibitively difficult. Fair didn't kill until like 150 if you were even slightly off of the ledge, and Dash Attack was way too linear to reliably catch people.

If Chrom continues to be considered better than Roy, he only proves that Roy's design is fundamentally flawed.
No, that proves nothing. The idea that Roy's design is fundamentally flawed existed long before Chrom did, and very much has and will carry over into perceptions of who the better character of the two is. If Chrom continues to be considered better than Roy, that just means that most people think Roy's design is fundamentally flawed, regardless of whether or not it actually is. In other words, it means nothing has changed.
 
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Ajani

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
85
Projectile, I think Fox is a counter due to his speed and Reflector. Not exactly a hard counter, but can be considered one at least at the moment. Could be wrong, though. Snake could be considered a mention because he doesn't need to worry about projectiles since it just gives him plenty of time to set up traps (and his crouch can potentially duck quite a few projectiles) and his dash attack gives him a decent approach option, scaring the opponent due to his grab game and Utilt.

As for swordies as a whole, that's hard since they are dominant right now, save for maybe Corrin. Projectile users can be considered at least tricky matchups for swordies once they get their neutral going. The Link's in particular can be very tricky once they get the neutral going or the Belmonts (though I'm not sure if they will last).
That's a very interesting perspective.

How will a Chrom nerf impact the meta? Would this give the spacies a huge push towards top tier again?
 

TurboLink

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
1,156
3DS FC
4725-8278-5467
I full heartedly agree. Link, to me, seems roughly the same overall as he was in 4. Some strong points, lots of bad points, ends up kind of mediocre/middling at best. His remote bomb is super flashy, so I get why he's popular right now, but I would bet good money on him dropping from popularity quietly once people realize there's so many other better characters. I hope he gets some buffs to his frame data, but as it stands right now Link has basically all of the same problems he used to have and then some. Like Rizen said, his zoning got worse. I'd take old bombs over new bombs any day. And that's not to mention his recovery is among the most predictable. It isn't Doc/Chrom level of linear, but he has only air dodge and up b as his options and he's not exactly an aerial monster like Chrom, so...
I don't understand you guys. In what way are you guys playing Link to believe that Remote Bombs are worse than his original bombs when they offer him better edgeguarding, shield pressure, kill confirms, and stage control. Link's remote bombs give him way more options and mixups now. Izaw showcases a lot of that in this video.


6:33 Link can use his bombs to jab reset after using the strong hit of neutral air at low percentages.
6:40 Another kill confirm but a bit more complicated than his other ones.
9:05 Some hype edgeguarding involving Link's bombs.
 
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NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,158
Eh, I think Inklings struggle a little too much with swords, on top of not necessarily having the most reliable kill confirms on the block, to definitively say they're the best.
Mmhm I'm feeling kind of vindicated about this. As an addendum, earlier today at my locals the one character that completely dismantled me was Yoshi, so I agree with what Coney's getting at (and I missed the set but ironically Cosmos seems to have lost to Yoshi as well?). Inkling doesn't really have a good way to deal with crossups and empty hops against characters who can throw out attacks without having to worry about trades. It's a matchup that you have to play extremely lame which is something Inkling can do but not that effectively. The only thing we have against characters like that are Splat bombs (which can be flanked around) BAir/FAir (which doesn't have the requisite range to challenge, although BAir is a pretty decent disjoint) and jab.

I also feel several mid-tier matchups might stymie them. Ridley is probably the best example. Opinions on him are pretty low right now but he has a deceptively wack matchup against Inkling, primarily because he plays as a heavy swordie and has more than one attack that can be thrown out as a burst option for a consequence free kill. Admittedly I'm not sure how much Ridley will catch on, but I still have a hard time to see Inkling as a top tier when characters like Fox are still extremely oppressive with early kills, characters like Pikachu/Pichu and Yoshi got buffs, and swordies are more powerful than ever. At best, they're borderline.
 
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zeldasmash

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
1,875
Location
Puerto Rico
That's a very interesting perspective.

How will a Chrom nerf impact the meta? Would this give the spacies a huge push towards top tier again?
Fox is already considered top tier by many while Wolf and Falco are considered pretty good with notable faults, but enough positives to be viable (Wolf in particular is very scary once he gets in on the opponent). Not sure if it will affect their overall status in the meta.

As for a Chrom nerf, the meta would lose it's more dominant swordie, but they will still be good as a whole due to how the engine benefits them. However, Chrom is very easy to make bad so if nerfs do come for him (which is likely), hopefully they don't overnerf him. A decent nerf would be to remove the Chromcide. It is VERY easy for Chrom to get kills and Soaring Slash is one of the major reasons why and gives him one of the easiest 0-to-deaths in the entire game.
 

Heracr055

Smash Ace
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
712
Location
Buena Park, CA
I don't feel so bad about struggling with Wolf anymore. That char has been giving me a hard time while playing Palutena; I know I should be gimping him but getting in with his strong CQC & range has been problematic. Speaking of Palutena, I find that I have quite a hard time once chars get in on me. Perhaps I should be running away more or try figuring out different option once foes are right on top of me
 
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