Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

?


  • Total voters
    465

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,594
Location
United States of Russia
There is a somewhat decent sized tournament that has gone underway. It is called Smash at the Paramount. Has a handful of notable players there.

1st: Ally:ultsnake:
2nd: Dabuz:ultrosalina::ultpalutena:
3rd: Light:ultfox:
4th: Suarez:ultyoshi:
5th: Samsora:ultpeach:
5th: NickC:ultfalcon:
7th: WDBTHtGP:ultbrawler:
7th: Protom:ultgunner:
9th: Kofi:ultfalco:
9th: Raptor:ultyoshi:
9th: Dill:ultrob:
*9th: ANTi:ultlucario::ultmario:
13th: Frozen:ultpalutena:
13th: frenchtutor_:ultlink:
13th: Sinji:ultpacman:
13th: ICE:ultwolf:


Other notable players out earlier:
17th: Mr E:ultlucina:
17th: LingLing:ultpeach:
25th: DKwill:ultdk:


*Note: after losing to Samsora, ANTi DQ'ed out of loser's due to having a really upset stomach-ache. This allowed Protom to move on to top 8 loser's.


This is an impressive showing for :ultrosalina:, as Dabuz took two 3-2 sets against Samsora and Ally using her (although Ally got the run back against him in grand finals), and almost won the tournament.
It helps if you include the total number of entrees.

Points of interest: It looks like Dabuz dropped Olimar, at least for now. Palutena's benifited from the recent nerf wave. Lots of Miis in the top 8. Solo Link's still popping up from time to time; he does better than I thought without a secondary.
 
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
894
Abadango finally won a pretty notable regional in Just Roll With It 11, which had roughly ~350 entrants. Notably - despite frequent pocketing and co-maining - he did so by going solo Inkling throughout the entire bracket and didn't drop a single set. Although it's worth noting that despite beating Fatality he had at least some bracket luck given that he didn't have to face Tsu, Raito or Kameme in bracket.

Salt One also had a great showing and placed second, with set wins over Tsu, Peabnut and Puppeh. Between him and Sparg0, it's been a pretty good week for Cloud players.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,594
Location
United States of Russia
Abadango finally won a pretty notable regional in Just Roll With It 11, which had roughly ~350 entrants. Notably - despite frequent pocketing and co-maining - he did so by going solo Inkling throughout the entire bracket and didn't drop a single set. Although it's worth noting that despite beating Fatality he had at least some bracket luck given that he didn't have to face Tsu, Raito or Kameme in bracket.

Salt One also had a great showing and placed second, with set wins over Tsu, Peabnut and Puppeh. Between him and Sparg0, it's been a pretty good week for Cloud players.
:ultyounglink: also had a good week, getting 7th there and 3rd at COST 2019. Unless Tweek starts taking YL seriously he doesn't have a single star representative (like Leo for Joker) but rather several mains and secondaries putting in work like Toast, Strike, colinies and cookieslayer.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
1,896
Just Roll With It! 11

1st: Abadango:ultinkling:
2nd: SaltOne:ultcloud:
3rd: Peabnut:ultmegaman:
4th: Kameme:ultmegaman::ultwario:
5th: Fatality:ultfalcon:
5th: Tsu:ultlucario::ultjoker:
7th: Sonido:ultsonic:
7th: Toast
9th: Blank:ultchrom:
9th: Donquavious:ultgreninja:
9th: Lazyboredom:ultfalco:
9th: Raito:ultduckhunt:


Some characters associated with the player may not be 100% accurate. SmashWiki has not updated the standings.
 

PK Bash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
175
Why would you want to do this? Only played Brawl casually so I wouldn't know....
So in Brawl, some players (you'd usually see this from heavy players) would deliberately roll towards Snake's Proximity Mine (RIP) or a Grenade out of down throw, theory being that taking that hit would put them in a better position than eating a chaingrab from Snake. It sounds dumb but welcome to Brawl Snake. Not going to go into the ins and outs of this as it isn't really the thread for it but basically, the idea was you would escape Snake's tech chase setups at a cost to yourself, which might be better than risking Snake's followup(s).

Ultimate works very, very differently but a similar principle can still be applied (though it works for different reasons). So you will often see Snakes drop a nade and then go in for a grab so that the grenade is behind them, yes? You can see it in Ally v Bocchi. The idea there for the Snake player is that you will be ****-scared to roll towards the grenade and 99% of the time, players will roll away or neutral get up out of down throw in this situation (typically roll away from what I've noticed), meaning those are the only options Snake now has to cover. This is really easy for the Snake; he can basically just react whatever you do.

But you don't have to be ****-scared of the Nade covering roll behind. They have a consistent timer on them, 2.5 seconds every time, so you can always anticipate when they're going to go bang, and therefore you know when to block if you have to. You will quite often have enough time after rolling to the Nade to put your shield up, as Bocchi shows us. Rolling towards the nade doesn't always mean you're going to get hit by it. By ruling out rolling towards the Nade out of panic, even when it is reasonably safe to do so, you're essentially turning the situation into a "50/50" (will you stay in the same place, or will your fixed roll distance put you in that spot instead), except its not even a 50/50 because Snake can react to both situations pretty easily if he's not also thinking about trying to cover roll behind, so he just gets a free followup on you.

I hope that made sense? I'm not saying roll into Nade 100% of the time, but people often think they can't roll in that direction at all and leave themselves much more vulnerable by writing the option off, when in actuality, it is probably fine.
 

DelugeSSB

Raging Demon
Premium
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
718
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
I saw Wolf's score on Orionstats and I thought it was because couldn't understand the format, but it seems like he's still standing atop of the cast still. Which leads me to ask, why isn't Wolf on people's minds as best character in the game as apposed to Snake or Joker. The nerfs he got were trivial in the long run outside of the up-b hitbox fix. His neutral game is still as top notch as ever with his punish game being relatively vicious to complement it. Outside of recovery, what weakness do he have, or what MUs does he lose that hold him back?
For starters he struggles to kill a lot, it's easy for Wolf to get stuck fishing for smash attacks or BAir as his opponent climbs to an unreasonably high % and the deficit between players climbs higher and higher.

Wolf also has a pretty linear overall gameplan and he's limited in what he can do, thus he can become predictable. Wolf is a very solid, but very simple, character. His simplicity which makes it so easy to pick him up is the same thing that holds him back.

Wolf is a lot like Fox in that regard (can get stuck fishing for kills and become predictable) tbh, but Fox has a better potential ceiling for the rewards he can get if he gets things such as reads, LOLUSmash in earlier on, etc. Fox also tends to pay for it more when mistakes / bad play comes up, Wolf does more player-carrying on that end. They both have niches, but honestly I think Fox is in pretty much every single way superior to Wolf. Wolf is just a lesser, but more consistent, version of him.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
534
NNID
User7a1
I mean, that's what logarithmic means. Not sure I follow.

Log axes also have to start at a somewhat arbitrary point, since zero isn't an option and any power of n is pretty much just as arbitrary as n^0 = 1.
Sorry. Disregard my comments. This is the first time I've seen a plot use a logarithmic scale for axes, so it threw me off. A bit of research on my end answered whatever questions I had.
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,678
Location
Texas
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
NNID
NebulaMan
Rare appearance but as I'm in the construction of a superarticle for July, I should note that detailed national-only stats are on the way. I have the rundown from Jan 1st to last weekend:

Wolf: 459.5
Snake: 421.5
Peach: 415.5
Palutena: 382.5
Fox: 375
Olimar: 355
Pichu: 323
Lucina: 318.5
Inkling: 256
Zero Suit Samus: 231.5
Wario: 214
Mega Man: 188.5
Greninja: 185.5
R.O.B.: 182
Pokemon Trainer: 179.5
Mario: 164
Chrom: 152
Yoshi: 148.5
Ike: 144.5
Pikachu: 142.5
Roy: 133
Ness: 128
Joker: 112.5
Pac-Man: 110
Cloud: 95.25
Bayonetta: 94
Shulk: 92
Bowser: 90
Young Link: 84.5
Link: 80
Luigi: 68
Toon Link: 64
Sonic: 63.5
King Dedede: 62.5
Duck Hunt: 57
Mr. Game & Watch: 50.5
Captain Falcon: 50.5
Meta Knight: 48
Falco: 43.5
Villager: 43
Donkey Kong: 39
Lucario: 39
Ice Climbers: 38
Zelda: 37
Samus/Dark Samus: 35
Ridley: 34.5
Incineroar: 31
Rosalina & Luma: 30.25
Richter/Simon: 30.25
Dr. Mario: 28.5
Diddy Kong: 26
Sheik: 23.5
Mewtwo: 20
Robin: 19.5
Isabelle: 18
Lucas: 16
Ganondorf: 15
Ken: 14
Marth: 11.5
Mii Swordfighter: 10
King K. Rool: 8
Mii Brawler: 8
Ryu: 6.5
Mii Gunner: 6
Dark Pit: 5
Piranha Plant: 5
Bowser Jr.: 5
Jigglypuff: 4
Pit: 3
Corrin: 2.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 1

I'm interested in placing this next to regional results to see what characters are held up by regional/national events (I see you Ness lmao)

The reasons for doing a giant article is to parse out a lot of details, fwiw. I'm looking at how results have changed month-by-month, because I've had ideas and theories on character trajectories. My basic ideas;

-Bayonetta's results were front loaded to Jan-Feb

-Wolf's results were moderately frontloaded and heavily supported by his saturation in top 32s/48s/64s rather than his presence deeper in bracket. Maybe comparable to Cloud/Diddy from 4 in this regard.

-Olimar is a fairly rare character held up mostly by Myran, Shuton, & Dabuz. Thinka's charts seem to show Oli is moderately rare compared to other top tiers, but I think PR data will further back that the character is exceptionally rare given his position.

-A large quantity of characters are probably held up by 1-2 players. I'll be test running this with an article dedicated to Joker that'll be published on SBs late in the week.

None of these are confirmed but they are things I think I've observed as I've updated scores over the last 6 months.
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,594
Location
United States of Russia
I saw Wolf's score on Orionstats and I thought it was because couldn't understand the format, but it seems like he's still standing atop of the cast still. Which leads me to ask, why isn't Wolf on people's minds as best character in the game as apposed to Snake or Joker. The nerfs he got were trivial in the long run outside of the up-b hitbox fix. His neutral game is still as top notch as ever with his punish game being relatively vicious to complement it. Outside of recovery, what weakness do he have, or what MUs does he lose that hold him back?
Wolf got minor nerfs but they add up. Now all his MU sans characters who got nerfed harder are a little bit worse. YL vs Wolf imo went from maybe 47/53 Wolf's favor to 51/49 YL's favor. Both versions could be called even but he's definitely easier. Wolf has a handful of good killing moves and Dsmash was the best. Now it kills later. Blaster is 3 frames longer and less spammable. UpB's hitbox got a significant reduction which makes his recovery easier to intercept or 2 frame. Wolf's more honest now.

He's still a top tier, just less outrageous. He got hit on all fronts: neutral, offense and recovery. I think the upB nerf will end up being the biggest as he can't threaten the whole ledge like before and recover for free. Although he did get indirectly buffed by Pichu and Olimar being hit harder. Wolf is well rounded and doesn't have glaring weaknesses but his armor's cracked more and his blade's duller.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
293
Rare appearance but as I'm in the construction of a superarticle for July, I should note that detailed national-only stats are on the way. I have the rundown from Jan 1st to last weekend:

Wolf: 459.5
Snake: 421.5
Peach: 415.5
Palutena: 382.5
Fox: 375
Olimar: 355
Pichu: 323
Lucina: 318.5
Inkling: 256
Zero Suit Samus: 231.5
Wario: 214
Mega Man: 188.5
Greninja: 185.5
R.O.B.: 182
Pokemon Trainer: 179.5
Mario: 164
Chrom: 152
Yoshi: 148.5
Ike: 144.5
Pikachu: 142.5
Roy: 133
Ness: 128
Joker: 112.5
Pac-Man: 110
Cloud: 95.25
Bayonetta: 94
Shulk: 92
Bowser: 90
Young Link: 84.5
Link: 80
Luigi: 68
Toon Link: 64
Sonic: 63.5
King Dedede: 62.5
Duck Hunt: 57
Mr. Game & Watch: 50.5
Captain Falcon: 50.5
Meta Knight: 48
Falco: 43.5
Villager: 43
Donkey Kong: 39
Lucario: 39
Ice Climbers: 38
Zelda: 37
Samus/Dark Samus: 35
Ridley: 34.5
Incineroar: 31
Rosalina & Luma: 30.25
Richter/Simon: 30.25
Dr. Mario: 28.5
Diddy Kong: 26
Sheik: 23.5
Mewtwo: 20
Robin: 19.5
Isabelle: 18
Lucas: 16
Ganondorf: 15
Ken: 14
Marth: 11.5
Mii Swordfighter: 10
King K. Rool: 8
Mii Brawler: 8
Ryu: 6.5
Mii Gunner: 6
Dark Pit: 5
Piranha Plant: 5
Bowser Jr.: 5
Jigglypuff: 4
Pit: 3
Corrin: 2.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 1

I'm interested in placing this next to regional results to see what characters are held up by regional/national events (I see you Ness lmao)

The reasons for doing a giant article is to parse out a lot of details, fwiw. I'm looking at how results have changed month-by-month, because I've had ideas and theories on character trajectories. My basic ideas;

-Bayonetta's results were front loaded to Jan-Feb

-Wolf's results were moderately frontloaded and heavily supported by his saturation in top 32s/48s/64s rather than his presence deeper in bracket. Maybe comparable to Cloud/Diddy from 4 in this regard.

-Olimar is a fairly rare character held up mostly by Myran, Shuton, & Dabuz. Thinka's charts seem to show Oli is moderately rare compared to other top tiers, but I think PR data will further back that the character is exceptionally rare given his position.

-A large quantity of characters are probably held up by 1-2 players. I'll be test running this with an article dedicated to Joker that'll be published on SBs late in the week.

None of these are confirmed but they are things I think I've observed as I've updated scores over the last 6 months.
Given that Kirby wasn't on the list, I'm assuming his score is 0? Just wanting to clarify.

I did notice that a lot of characters in the 50~100 point range generally have only 1-2 mains backing them up (T for :ultlink:, Raito for :ultduckhunt:, Fatality/Nick C for :ultfalcon:, Riddles for :ultrichter:, Maister for :ultgnw:, Leon for :ultbowser:, etc.) The one exception I see for this is :ultkingdedede:, who has Atmosk, Big D, and Zaki backing him up.
 
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
38
Location
Northeastern United States
Lima is back? looks like im watching the tourneylocator stream again.

a few pages ago i made a commment about a character being basic will hold them back overtime. I'm going to explain why i said that now.

Characters like Ike and lucina in my experience suffer from Wesker syndrome. Wesker syndrome is when a character is objectively strong but because the character is very basic over time it becomes predictable. In marvel 3 wesker was solid character he didnt have a 25 percent chance to block mixup like zero, he didnt have vergil hitboxes or Morrigan zoning. He was decent at everything. Over time characters with wesker syndrome experience a drop in results and effectiveness in bracket. These characters often rely on their players having much better fundamentals than their opponents and often they don't have a tool or move that is ridiculous. This can happen over a period of years or even months. In smash we have seen this before with smash 4 characters mario comes to mind.

I'm not aware of any post from Mk Leo saying he thinks Ike is bad, what I think he's said is ike is limited. Ryuga has said similar things i believe. Its why i dont have long term faith in inkling, lucina, ike, and others. Metagames form these characters has a glass ceiling that, while not clearly evident in the beginning of a game's lifespan, will eventually catch up to them. inkling is the one character i honestly can't tell if it has wesker syndrome or not. it honestly could go either way imo.

note: palutena does not have wesker syndrome. mostly due to bair.
I'm still pretty new when it comes to understanding the competitive side. What is it about Palutena's Bair that saves her from having Wesker syndrome? The invincibility? Down throw to bair? Something else?
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
1,380
I'm still pretty new when it comes to understanding the competitive side. What is it about Palutena's Bair that saves her from having Wesker syndrome? The invincibility? Down throw to bair? Something else?
palutena bair is almost the definition of a ridiculous tool. its a kill move that edge guards, combos, challenges almost all other normals (and projectiles), and is relatively safe on shorthop. its a swiss army knife of a move that characters with wesker syndrome like ike simple lack.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,164
Location
Canada
Wii Fit Trainer's general lack of usage speaks to this game's "unique" problem. She's overlooked, but not because she's bad or unintuitive, but because the sheer volume is of "viable characters" is absurdly high in this game.

Still, I think her usage is particularly low despite her strength as a character. Hopefully she starts seeing more use.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,594
Location
Sweden
I saw Wolf's score on Orionstats and I thought it was because couldn't understand the format, but it seems like he's still standing atop of the cast still. Which leads me to ask, why isn't Wolf on people's minds as best character in the game as apposed to Snake or Joker.
Many of Wolf's results were in the early meta, which makes sense seeing how he's fairly easy to play. Since then, other characters, like Snake, have developed their metagame and Wolf has also received a bunch of non-trivial nerfs, making him worse overall. He's still a top tier character but probably not a contender for #1.
 

Zachmac

Resident Zard Enthusiast
Premium
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,157
Location
Southern California
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
NNID
AbsolBlade
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
For starters he struggles to kill a lot, it's easy for Wolf to get stuck fishing for smash attacks or BAir as his opponent climbs to an unreasonably high % and the deficit between players climbs higher and higher.

Wolf also has a pretty linear overall gameplan and he's limited in what he can do, thus he can become predictable. Wolf is a very solid, but very simple, character. His simplicity which makes it so easy to pick him up is the same thing that holds him back.

Wolf is a lot like Fox tbh, but Fox has a better potential ceiling for the rewards he can get if he gets things such as reads, LOLUSmash in earlier on, etc. Fox also tends to pay for it more when mistakes / bad play comes up, Wolf does more player-carrying on that end. They both have niches, but honestly I think Fox is in pretty much every single way superior to Wolf. Wolf is just a lesser, but more consistent, version of him.
Uh, Wolf and Fox are completely different. Fox has amazing ground speed and, while having a somewhat short range, his movement makes up for that and allows him to close gaps easily. Wolf has much lower ground speed (although he still has a good dash) but amazing air mobility, a much better blaster and more range on his attacks. Fox is more of a rush down / wiff punish glass canon who focuses more on ground movement while Wolf is a midrange generalist with strong zoning and flexible mobility.

I wouldn't really call Wolf linear either. He has a lot of tools he can use quite effectively in neutral. Nair, Fair, Grab, Dash Attack, F-tilt, sometimes U-tilt as an anti-air and of course his infamous Blaster. He has the tools to mix it up or adapt to tricky opponent.
 
Last edited:

DelugeSSB

Raging Demon
Premium
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
718
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
"Wolf is a lot like Fox" came from both characters having a problem getting kills sometimes and can get predictable. Which was the theme of my post. In terms of archetype / actual gameplay I wasn't making a comparison. Wolf is a more consistent character overall, but Fox has the potential to be more.. explosive I guess I'd say.

Sorry if that wasn't clear, it probably wasn't. I disagree about Wolf not being linear, though.. how is antiair UTilt a mixup when that's the moves intended function?
 
Last edited:

Zachmac

Resident Zard Enthusiast
Premium
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,157
Location
Southern California
3DS FC
4210-4109-6434
NNID
AbsolBlade
Switch FC
SW-1754-5854-0794
"Wolf is a lot like Fox" came from both characters having a problem getting kills sometimes and can get predictable. Which was the theme of my post. In terms of archetype / actual gameplay I wasn't making a comparison. Wolf is a more consistent character overall, but Fox has the potential to be more.. explosive I guess I'd say.
Hmm okay, but you have to be really careful about comparing the two.

They're kind of in a Lucas/Ness situation where a lot of people will want to compare them due to outwards similarities even when the comparison isn't really fair.
Sorry if that wasn't clear, it probably wasn't. I disagree about Wolf not being linear, though.. how is antiair UTilt a mixup when that's the moves intended function?
I specified Utilt as an anti-air. It's not really a primary mix up option, but it is a tool he has that give him a different way to view certain neutral interactions.

On that note, I just realized I forgot to list f-tilt as one of his neutral tools. Silly me.
 

DelugeSSB

Raging Demon
Premium
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
718
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
Wolf is linear in that his gameplan doesn't leave a ton of room for the player using him to stray from the path and freestyle. Wolf rewards a strong neutral and having good fundamentals, he doesn't have super technical combo strings, setups or anything like that. Wolf bleeds pretty much all of his mileage out of simpler things, about the most complex thing Wolf does is his tech chasing which by the standards of other characters like Greninja is also pretty linear / simple.

His recovery is outright linear, limiting his options to get back onstage to only a handful of things which can easily be punished if they get read.. and reading them becomes all the more easier when he only has so many to choose from. His onstage game only has so many avenues you can take it on and expect to get rewarded for it, and when it comes to getting kills if Wolf doesn't manage to cheese it out early with a DSmash or a FSmash / USmash read.. he can often get left fishing for his kills. A lot of his 'go-to' options for most situations are stagnant, making him overall a character that can get very predictable.

Linear meaning both simplistic and predictable. He has linear approach options, linear offstage / recovery options, linear kill options.. overall that word can be used to describe many aspects of Wolf, and imo Wolf overall. I don't personally think Wolf is a top tier anymore, I think he's near the top of High Tier + and overall still very solid, but in no way can I ever see him being described as a complex / technical character. Is he simplest character in the game? God no, but that doesn't mean he still isn't overall pretty simple in comparison to other slots on the roster.
 
Last edited:

KakuCP9

What does it mean to be strong?
Premium
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
400
Location
Narnia, Canada
I disagree with Wolf's nerfs being non-trival. All they did was make blaster slightly more punishable at ranges it already was punishable (close range). Its a nerf made to help mid-level players to get around it better/stop spamming it. His blaster is used in conjunction with his normals such as dash attack, ftilt, fair, bair(which still has a BS auto-cancel window),etc to make the range he threatens very flexible rather than a crutch to carry his neutral unlike some characters. Hell, the fact that his jab is now connects properly means that his CQC has been patched up which is a net buff compared to dsmash only killing at 70% at the ledge and a bit blaster endlag. Furthermore, Wolf's bthrow acts as a stock cap and he has fair amount of moves to land raw (bair, ftilt, usmash anti-airs) when his set-ups end so getting stocks doesn't seem to that damning to him. If anything, the only weakness I can find is his recovery, but with characters like Chrom and Joker running around, that weakness is looking less and less a big deal (plus he still has really good air specs for drifting to the stage which helps make offstage a little less of a death sentence).

I just realized I forgot to list f-tilt as one of his neutral tools. Silly me.
Bruh, that **** is OD. Frame data and range on par with Marthcina on a character with powerful burst options, borderline safe on shield and can even KO at around sub 100%. I surprised no one ******* about this move more.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
835
More often than not, I see Smashers use “linear” as a catch all term for “one-dimensional.”

In Smash 4, Luigi had a one-dimensional gameplan: condition for grab. His players knew it, and their opponents knew it. He had fireball to help condition.

Of course, because he lacked a burst option, he had to slowly work his way in, which made him susceptible to safe spacing options, like Cloud’s Bair.

In other words, he had a simplistic neutral.

Compare with Wolf, who can capitalize on stray hits off of good buttons like Fair, Nair, Dtilt, or Ftilt. He can force approaches or play anti-approach with blaster, or condition into grab, where he can use Uthrow or Dthrow to set up different scenarios in his favor.

He can space with disjoints or take advantage of some safe buttons to force CQC situations depending on the opposing character’s toolset.

Wolf doesn’t have a clean kill confirm like Falco. But! He can play neutral forever, because at any given time, a trade or stray hit can lead him into a snowballing advantage state.

He never has to force a kill, but good Wolves can disguise their intentions with his great initial dash, quick short hop, and great aerial speed.

The only thing that is predictable about Wolf is that you know he can take his time dismantling you.
 
Last edited:

DelugeSSB

Raging Demon
Premium
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
718
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
I don't see how that applies when a lot of Wolf's stray hit attacks don't start killing in most situations until absurdly high percent, and that's just more time something can go wrong.. you left that out when talking about the 'snowballing advantage state' when that can easily go both ways, especially against a fast-faller with a bad recovery like Wolf. Wolf's neutral is strong, but it's not THAT strong. He can't play keepaway forever in a ton of relevant MU's.

Also, that overall gameplan compared to many on the roster is still pretty linear. I don't see how being able to concisely list every element of a character's neutral just about in a few sentences makes a strong case for their complexity in a game where characters like Greninja, Young Link, Ken/Ryu and others exist. The question of 'complex or not' also has other variables outside of the character's neutral, in which case Wolf begins to deflate quite a lot as neutral is easily Wolf's heaviest element

I feel I also made it pretty clear I wasn't using linear in the way you've described. I in no way alluded to the character being one dimensional, I alluded to him being predictable.. which I still very much think he is. I'd also like to take the time to point out that my use of the word 'linear' does not equate to 'this character is bad' either. I've stated I think he's easily still at least High Tier + (and near the top of that tier, too) and MAYBE still somewhere in the bottom of top tier.. but this talk of him being a contender for best in the game all of a sudden, especially after his nerfs, is a bit much imo.

I'd call elements of Wario linear, and imo he's a top 5 character. Linear doesn't = bad, nor is it some sort of insult to players who use the character. Just an observation of that character in comparison of other ones in the same game.
 
Last edited:

Arthur97

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,830
  • Everyone played Pokemon
  • Pokemon Trainer mechanics are just the coolest
  • 3x odds of a playstyle fit of other characters
  • Despite the complexity, the character is super easy to pick up
Contrast each of these points with say, WFT, or ICs.
Probably hyperbole, but not everyone plays Pokemon, and the second point is highly subjective.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
415
Location
Germany
Can someone explain to me why teleports in this game are apparently "bad"?
I admit, I haven't seen the stock where this happened but apparently, something was odd about Palu's recovery in the Abadango vs. SaltOne set.

Since I also play a teleport character I'm quite curious what has happened here. It had something to do with bouncing of the ledge with the teleport and it also happens with Zelda's, apparently.
Kinda interested in what happened in this set. I actually doubt it has something to do with the teleport per se but maybe it's something I'm not aware of.
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,836
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
He's still a top tier, just less outrageous. He got hit on all fronts: neutral, offense and recovery. I think the upB nerf will end up being the biggest as he can't threaten the whole ledge like before and recover for free. /QUOTE]
This.

Wolf had a monopoly on ledge traps and 2-framing in a LOT of matchups. It also created a really inconsistent pressure situation, since optimal positioning to punish wolf flash (close to lip) would then force you to respect fire wolf since you could die if you do anything but hold shield. And this limits your potential ledge coverage.

Wolf also actually has a below-average ledge snap, in addition to a very reactable animation due to the start-up of firewolf. The originally massive hitbox alleviated this and demanded more respect than it should've, actually beating a lot of fairly disjointed 2-framing attempts. (Olimar dsmash, mario fsmash, etc due to them actually moving their hands out a little)

Meaning unless you had projectiles to two-frame with, you had to just let him back.

It really just created an unfair, and inconsistent disadvantage state which Wolf no longer benefits from.

Can someone explain to me why teleports in this game are apparently "bad"?
I admit, I haven't seen the stock where this happened but apparently, something was odd about Palu's recovery in the Abadango vs. SaltOne set.

Since I also play a teleport character I'm quite curious what has happened here. It had something to do with bouncing of the ledge with the teleport and it also happens with Zelda's, apparently.
Kinda interested in what happened in this set. I actually doubt it has something to do with the teleport per se but maybe it's something I'm not aware of.
This theory is largely influenced by the myth that teleports are mechanically easier to two-frame.

Which is often true, but not because there's more frames to do so. It's just they often have start-ups which make timing easier, and also often no hitbox which allows for a wider range of 2-framing attempts with less risk.

But Zelda's teleport has a huge hitbox, and good speed. So the upspecial itself isn't bad at all. (Her main recovery issue is just airspeed if anything)

There's also the issue of teleport reliability on Unova, which can eat up precious few spikes.
 
Last edited:

Lacrimosa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
415
Location
Germany
Yoshi has an insane air movement. Should have the fastest air speed out of all fighters and that also helps him a lot off-stage. His double-jump is really hard to catch, it also has super armor. Decent projectile with the egg and all his aerials are great.
No idea how his framedata is but he looks, as in Sm4sh, like a character that has some "broken" things going for him but really no one besides Suarez plays him at this level of play which is kinda sad since I like him a lot and play him sometimes.

DunnoBro DunnoBro Yeah, I thought so but again, I didn't see what happened to Abadango. Hopefully they upload his set soon to YT or maybe I look for a VOD.
E: Unova is a well known issue but not something that makes teleports bad even on this stage and the Abadango set happened on BF if I'm not mistaken. Really, need to see this again.

However, Zelda's air speed is quite decent. Slightly faster than Lucina's and equal to Pac-Man so she can go back to stage 99% of the times (unless she gets knocked of at a low angle towards the lower corners because her double jump isn't the best).
 
Last edited:

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
13,594
Location
United States of Russia
I'm a little surprised we don't see :ultyounglink: as a CP character; it's probably due to his high learning curve. YL loses several high/top tier MUs but has winning MUs vs several meta characters like :ultyoshi::ultpokemontrainer::ultpichu:*(IMO) and :ultpeach::ultdaisy:(Based on Samsora/MuteAce's MU charts). I didn't think Yoshi was a good character until I started player characters besides YL. He can be a real pain but YL has great tools vs him.

*post patch.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,046
I'm a little surprised we don't see :ultyounglink: as a CP character; it's probably due to his high learning curve. YL loses several high/top tier MUs but has winning MUs vs several meta characters like :ultyoshi::ultpokemontrainer::ultpichu:*(IMO) and :ultpeach::ultdaisy:(Based on Samsora/MuteAce's MU charts). I didn't think Yoshi was a good character until I started player characters besides YL. He can be a real pain but YL has great tools vs him.

*post patch.
Yea in most cases pro players do not want to that much effort for technical characters they dont plan to fully main. That is why :ultlucina::ultwolf: are the most commonly seen CP characters . In fact right now they seem to be used more as CP or pocket charactets in thr competive meta now than as actual mains.

Tweek did use YL as a Counterpick for a while, but he seems to use :ultroy:for that now. Who is also becoming a fairly popular CP himself as of late
 
Last edited:

Sean²

Smash Capitalist
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,597
Switch FC
SW-7479-8539-5283
No idea how his framedata is but he looks, as in Sm4sh, like a character that has some "broken" things going for him but really no one besides Suarez plays him at this level of play which is kinda sad since I like him a lot and play him sometimes.

I'm pretty sure it takes a special kind of player to main a "weird double jump" character (that's what I call them at least) in lieu of a character with more "traditional" jumps. That's partially why not you see significantly less people play Yoshi, Ness, Lucas, etc. I think that's why the mains of these characters don't really change mains between games very often. Kind of how all the prominent S4 Bayo mains had so much trouble escaping that character when she became terrible, but all the Clouds jumped onto someone else with little effort when he was no longer godlike. You had to learn Bayo to be good with Bayo. You just needed to learn Smash to be good with Cloud. A lot of people just want to learn Smash, and don't necessarily want to bother with the nuances of a niche character that has unique qualities outside of special moves that aren't transferable to the rest of the roster if they aren't too good not to play.
 
Last edited:

Lacrimosa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
415
Location
Germany
Finally the teleport thing and it leaves me a bit puzzled at 5:40.
I don't know if Palu's and Zelda's teleport vary that much but that's not something that happens when you teleport normally to the stage. I also don't think that has something to do with teleports being "bad" as the commentator said but it looks to me that Aba held the stick down too long because she should grab the ledge normally and if you mistime or misspace it then you'll bounce of. Happens to Palu probably more often because she has some high speed after teleporting.
Anyway, that's out of the way and it was nothing out of the ordinary.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
1,896
Finally the teleport thing and it leaves me a bit puzzled at 5:40.
I don't know if Palu's and Zelda's teleport vary that much but that's not something that happens when you teleport normally to the stage. I also don't think that has something to do with teleports being "bad" as the commentator said but it looks to me that Aba held the stick down too long because she should grab the ledge normally and if you mistime or misspace it then you'll bounce of. Happens to Palu probably more often because she has some high speed after teleporting.
Anyway, that's out of the way and it was nothing out of the ordinary.
I think I have seen that teleport thing happen with Mewtwo and Palutena in SSB4's Battlefield as well. Battlefield has an awkward slant at the ledge that can sometimes, although rarely, screw you up when recovering. In SSB4, I as Ness once tried to PK Thunder back when close to the ledge, but the curve gimped my recovery.

Teleport recoveries in this game in general is weird. While Mewtwo's Teleport is directly buffed from SSB4, I have seen a bit more instances of being able to hit him as he grabs the ledge. I don't know if it is because the cast has more tools to more reliably two frame teleport recoveries with no hitboxes (Mewtwo and Palutena) or what-not, but I found teleport recoveries to be more awkward in this game even if the move itself is relatively unchanged from SSB4.
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
835
I don't see how that applies when a lot of Wolf's stray hit attacks don't start killing in most situations until absurdly high percent, and that's just more time something can go wrong.. you left that out when talking about the 'snowballing advantage state' when that can easily go both ways, especially against a fast-faller with a bad recovery like Wolf. Wolf's neutral is strong, but it's not THAT strong. He can't play keepaway forever in a ton of relevant MU's.
I didn’t leave anything like that out, because “a fast caller with a bad recovery” describes a ton a extremely strong characters. What matters is how much can a character extend their advantage once they have it. Which Wolf obviously can, given his strength in tech chasing and option coverage.

In addition - fortunately - my post had little to do with “playing keep away forever” and addressed Wolf’s ability to play neutral forever. Which he certainly can.

Also, that overall gameplan compared to many on the roster is still pretty linear. I don't see how being able to concisely list every element of a character's neutral just about in a few sentences makes a strong case for their complexity in a game where characters like Greninja, Young Link, Ken/Ryu and others exist.
I don’t care about complexity, because it’s not an argument I am making. You are placing a line and making a spectrum with “linear” on one side and “complex” on another.

Which is ironic, given you say this a few lines later:

I in no way alluded to the character being one dimensional, I alluded to him being predictable.. which I still very much think he is.
Right. So, an antonym for one-dimensional would be... complex, yes? And the now you have established the opposite of complex is “linear”. Okay.

This is why I wasn’t replying to you specifically, but rather using your post as a springboard to address a more common sentiment that I see.

Ultimately, complexity is neither good nor bad. What matters for a character is the amount of viable options for a given situation.

Wolf doesn’t have a centralizing option that he needs to open up his gameplay. An Ike Nair, if you will. Sure, you could make the argument that blaster is just such an option, but it has limited usage in some matchups, like Snake.

Fortunately, for Wolf, he can still approach with Fair, or cross up Nair, or bait with short hops and use tomahawks. He can convert to grab off of FF Nair, or combo off of a stray fair. Or he can retreat to blaster range to bait an approach. Or, he can sit in shield and use Nair OOS.

The strength of Wolf comes from the versatility of his options. Ironically, he becomes complex when you want to get specific things off of those options. Wolf certainly isn’t Olimar in terms of complexity, but Wolf also has far few limits on what he can use, and when, for a given situation.

You can argue that makes him “simple,” but a better argument is that is what makes him both popular and stupid strong.
 

Avokha

A+B smash tech is my baby <3
Premium
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
570
Location
Corpus Christi, Texas
3DS FC
4914-3109-5720
NNID
Avokha00
Thread seems pretty dead today :skull:

Suppose I should attempt to revive you guys with a new topic lol. Sooooooo...

With all these tier lists coming out and it being a hot topic among his mains recently, where do you guys think :ultrobin: is right now in the meta?
 

DelugeSSB

Raging Demon
Premium
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
718
Location
Tennessee (US)
Switch FC
SW-2582-1162-1537
Thread seems pretty dead today :skull:

Suppose I should attempt to revive you guys with a new topic lol. Sooooooo...

With all these tier lists coming out and it being a hot topic among his mains recently, where do you guys think :ultrobin: is right now in the meta?
Robin is interesting. I can't speak with a ton of certainty / confidence on the character as my experiences with them are pretty limited, but I at least think all the talk of them being a low tier / unviable is nonsense. They have powerful kill confirms, stray hits with Levin are often times enough to end stocks, when the player operating them has a understanding of the character they can play a very oppressive neutral in a lot of MU's and overall the character has a lot of cool mixups and such.

But they're very slow, and in some MU's (like Chrom / Roy, for example) they get shut down before they ever get a chance to start the engines. When Robin is allowed to play their game, Robin is a pretty deadly character who you should never sleep on.. but when you get Robin at a disadvantage, they REALLY tend to hurt for it and can struggle hard.

I'd say the character is likely a candidate for the higher end of mid-tier. The MU's they do well in tend to see them dominate the flow of everything, Robin can make simply trying to play neutral hell for some characters.. especially heavies.
 
Last edited:

Lacrimosa

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
415
Location
Germany
Robin is an interesting character that is something between a zoner and a space-defensive character. I think they want to keep you out of their zone but their zoning tools have limitations so you can stay outside of them. Yes, they have thunder which can travel distance but you've to try to get in. Arcfire is pretty laggy but it has the advntage that it covers space from above and it can't be reflected in order to hurt Robin. Something like PK fire but it covers a different space.
Levin sword is kinda nice to have around and as a disjoint it helps Robin even more. Can't say how fast the aerials or how far the range is but in concept is's quite nice.
Recovery is exploitable, though. Yes, the gain of air speed is nice but having no hitbox above you is always a bad thing that invites for spikes. But it has travel distance and can be hard to catch due to the speed.
Don't know, to me this character wants to achieve the same thing as Zelda: Wants to keep your opponent out because if they get in you have a rather bad time getting into neutral again and if your opponent struggles to get in, the game tests your patience. Projectiles reach farther and travel rather fast but recovery is worse. Maybe I'm mistaken but I always thought these both characters belong into a similar achetype in the game: Not really zoning out the opponent(not fast enough and the disjoint isn't as strong as the Belmont's) but they are able to if needed but it's more about forcing your opponent to approach and then defend your space.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, though.
I kinda think Robin belong into the higher segment of the cast, though. Can be oppressive but seem to struggle against characters with good ground and air speed, like Chroy.
 
Joined
Oct 31, 2014
Messages
64
3DS FC
2105-8719-2070
NNID
Alexim
Can you DI/SDI out of arcfire? I have a much harder time escaping follow ups from it then from PK fire. It feels like everytime I get hit by the move, I end up eating a beefy levin sword to the face.
 
Top