Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Cloud...oh man Cloud on Ulltimate. He is kinda karmic place. He is overall still a solid charactsr here he seems ironically to get outclassed by many other swordies , and another character with a similar gimkick but ill get to that. In short, many of them have taken qualites and strengths that he had back in Smash 4. Which is what likely drove much of his old playbase away.

Lets see.

:ultike: basically has Cloud's Smash 4 nair, yeah nuff said there.

:ultroy:/:ultchrom: seems to have the raw power and explosiveness without really needed limit. Rpy side-b is almost Clouds LCS without needed limit, and has an overall better recovery.

:ultlucina: as ursurped the postion as the swordie, no the top-tier character period who is relatively basic, easy to pick up do very well with just with a solid grasp on fundamentals.


Now for the most ironic part :ultjoker: now came as post-launch DLC character and his Arsene mechanic its, well basically a superior "limit break' to Cloud's now.

It im the great mobility combined with the giant gitboxes ans power of Limit Cloud, but it lasts nearly twice as long, gives him a much more noticable power increase, AND does not immedately get used up if Joker uses any of his improved specials. Joker cannot mannually charge his of course, but he still manages to get it as much as Cloud can get Limit in any set

Cloud now is just well, just another solid swordie in a game where there are better options to pick. He is basically in the same position as Marth right now
 
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DelugeFGC

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Arsene Joker's hitboxes don't really compare to Cloud's. Like the hitbox increase from Arsene all said isn't THAT insane.

Having NAir as your entire gameplan and neutral pressure tool is a weakness, not a strength. I'd say Cloud is better than Ike, Ike imo is a high mid-tier who everyone overvalues. Ike is slow, combo food who doesn't have a ton of tools to use to mix up with or do anything truly stellar. He's simply hard hitting with bread and butter combos / confirms that give him some momentum when he gets going.. but if you play the MU or god forbid counterpick? Ike is having a very bad time. Ike was a very 'early meta' character, as time has proven.

Chroy I'd definitely say is better, as would I with Lucina and Joker. My point was the Cloud is still a high tier, and there's still niches to his character that could attract people, saying otherwise is simply discounting him. He may not be the best character or even the best swordie, but acting as if he has no merit at all is a little silly.
 
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Arsene Joker's hitboxes don't really compare to Cloud's. Like the hitbox increase from Arsene all said isn't THAT insane.

Having NAir as your entire gameplan and neutral pressure tool is a weakness, not a strength. I'd say Cloud is better than Ike, Ike imo is a high mid-tier who everyone overvalues. Ike is slow, combo food who doesn't have a ton of tools to use to mix up with or do anything truly stellar. He's simply hard hitting with bread and butter combos / confirms that give him some momentum when he gets going.. but if you play the MU or god forbid counterpick? Ike is having a very bad time. Ike was a very 'early meta' character, as time has proven.

Chroy I'd definitely say is better, as would I with Lucina and Joker. My point was the Cloud is still a high tier, and there's still niches to his character that could attract people, saying otherwise is simply discounting him. He may not be the best character or even the best swordie, but acting as if he has no merit at all is a little silly.
I agree he is still high tier (albeit on the lower side) and he still has merit. I am just giving my opinion om why he is really lacking any rep outside of spargo.

Riddle me this? What other previous notable Smash 4 Cloud mains you can name that still uses him at all in Ultimate?
 

Rizen

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Here's some impressions on :ultyounglink:'s MUs.

:ultfalco: is one of the characters who can stalemate YL's projectile zoning but his reflector has lag and if YL reads it he can get off a punish. Falco can laser with faster startup but YL can hop over it while tossing projectiles and has better reward. Despite Falco's tools, YL's projectiles play an important part in this match. Falco's Fair is surprisingly long and Utilt is a great combo starter. The problem is with Falco's poor horizontal mobility he has a hard time pinning YL down and YL has safer conversions. It becomes a rock-paper-scissors game of one option beating one and losing to another.
Offstage Falco can gimp but has to be close to the ledge which gives YL time to toss out a boomerang. Falco's recovery is not the best and he's at risk too.

I'd say this MU is slightly in YL's favor. YL's mobile zoning lets him control the match better and Falco's actually lighter than YL so killing isn't too much an issue.

:ultinkling: I don't have a good grasp on the MU. YL controls midrange better but Ink's more mobile. It feels even. I'll need to play better players to learn the MU better. :/

:ultlucas: This is one of those MUs where it feels like YL really outclasses the opponent. Lucas has his zoning tools like PKFire and Zair. YL has much better zoning tools and gets combos. You have to watch out for PKFreeze and Dsmash when recovering but PKThunder isn't as fast or scary as Ness'. YL needs to zone hard and he'll win.

Advantage.

:ultlucina: is extremely oppressive in advantage. She's one of the scariest characters to recover against both offstage and landing. The MU's more even than I thought as she struggles a bit to approach and YL wins neutral. It doesn't make up for how insane her space control in CQC is. YL can chip her but any time he has to go in Lucina's faster with better reach and angles.

Slight to moderate disadvantage.

:ultmegaman: This is an interesting MU. Mega's pellets and projectiles outprioritize YL's but YL has better range, is often faster and can angle his own projectiles. Another MU where YL's versatile, mobile zoning really comes in handy. Mega Man has to worry a lot more about positioning than YL. Leaf shield's weird; it blocks projectiles but frequently arrows can slip through. Both characters have their unique brand of juggles on the other.

Overall I'd say it's even. Mega Man lives longer and that makes up for a slightly worse neutral. YL does better on larger stages (like always).

:ultchrom: Everyone knows Chrom. He's devastating on stage. YL however can zone him hard and he doesn't control the air as well as Lucina. YL also has a Dsmash that launches at steep sideways angles that is excellent vs his terrible recovery. Bombs are really good in this MU because the let YL jump over Chrom and land or combo into Dair.

I'm leaning more towards this MU being even now.

:ultwario: Wario is one of the better zone breaker characters because he's smallish with great airspeed. That doesn't mean YL can't wall him for a lot of damage. Wario's mean when he does get in and can smother you but YL's f4 Nair is extremely helpful as a GTFO tool.

I feel like this MU would be even except Wario has Waft and can kill YL at 70%; it doesn't even have to be fully charged. As such it's a slight disadvantage.

:ultwiifittrainer: Like Lucas, this is a MU where YL simply outclasses. WFT can zone with projectiles but YL can do it better and is good at sniping her offstage when she tries to deep breathe or shoot a header. WFT has a terrible time getting in with her hitboxes. She can kill at good %s with deep breathing and has some annoying combos like Nair, IDK.

The bottom line is YL controls this match. Advantage.

:ultwolf: Even after the nerfs, unlike Pichu, Wolf's a great character. YL has less to worry about from Dsmash and can zone slightly better with laser being nerfed but the changes weren't enough for me to move this to advantage. YL's Damage output is better and he controls midrange but Wolf still kills much earlier. It should be noted with Wolf's upB last hit nerfed he's easier to intercept. You don't have to worry as much about a huge hitbox killing you at the ledge.

Even.

:ultyoshi: Yoshi's a good character however YL has good tools against him. YL's zoning is vastly superior to eggs and YL's sword is enough to wall him up close. I think Yoshi's slower fall speed makes him worse at zone breaking than Wario. Yoshi lives longer but doesn't have the most potent kill options and YL builds damage better. YL's Uair last a long time and beats everything Yoshi has from below, including ground pound. Bombs are also very useful as Yoshi must approach to do anything to YL.

Slight advantage. PS it seems like this character's everywhere.
 

The_Bookworm

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Riddle me this? What other previous notable Smash 4 Cloud mains you can name that still uses him at all in Ultimate?
Cheeks, Sparg0 (he mains Cloud in SSB4 as well), Masashi, YOC, Zephyr, and SaltOne, but that is pretty much it. No really big top talent left to represent him.
RAIN mained Cloud for some time, but has switched over to Wolf ever since.
 
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DelugeFGC

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If blade beam was a better projectile / neutral tool and his landing lag was toned down a little I could actually see Cloud having a pretty strong niche, but as-is he does suffer a bit from the 'outdone by other characters' problem.. BUT, that said, his overall combined package (even if the individual / best elements are outdone by someone else, he brings them all together in one package) could make him an attractive character to some. I never see him developing representation as a counterpick or anything, though.. and I feel most Cloud mains will move to other characters as they improve at the game and see better avenues for their acquired skill in other places.

Cloud is in a bit of an unfortunate position, but he's still a pretty damned good character.. many in this game would kill to be him.
 
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Y2Kay

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Bear in mind that Venia kinda fell apart in that set. The pressure of getting the first Xeno threepeat was clearly getting to him and he threw away that final game in particular.
Venia was having a particular rough day in regards to his personal life. He said he was gonna be taking a break but decided last minute to try to go for the theepeat.


No offense to Rizen but that was a pretty bad display for the Gren:Lucina matchup. Venia in that set and the whole tournament kinda tunnel visioned on DA. Mr E played pretty scared the whole set and was shielding a lot. Venia wasn’t mixing it up at all the whole day. I was surprised he still made it to grands playing like that.

:150:
 

Rizen

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Venia was having a particular rough day in regards to his personal life. He said he was gonna be taking a break but decided last minute to try to go for the theepeat.


No offense to Rizen but that was a pretty bad display for the Gren:Lucina matchup. Venia in that set and the whole tournament kinda tunnel visioned on DA. Mr E played pretty scared the whole set and was shielding a lot. Venia wasn’t mixing it up at all the whole day. I was surprised he still made it to grands playing like that.

:150:
TBH this sounds like johns. Venia beat Mr.E in winners and got all the way to grand finals winner's side so he can't have been playing that poorly.

bc1910 bc1910
I agree Greninja's better than Shulk and YL.
 
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Y2Kay

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TBH this sounds like johns. Venia beat Mr.E in winners and got all the way to grand finals winner's side so he can't have been playing that poorly.
How am I johning? I explained how Venia was playing worse than usual, I'm not making excuses for him.

Once Mr E was able to consistently parry and Up B OOS SH Nair and SH Fair, Venia kinda fell apart. He did not mix up his approaches at all like he usually would. Even the commentators caught on to how little Venia was grabbing.

Plus, his run through winners was honestly lighter than usual; if he ran into NickC, Gen, or even Dill playing like that he might've lost too. To think Venia can still make it to grands even though he was autopiloting or whatever isn't too farfetched at all.

When a Greninja is fighting a character with excellent OOS punishes, or an opponent who knows how to consistently parry his SH Falling aerials (which, from my experience fighting Mr E, he knows how to parry these options pretty well) the Greninja player is forced to either adapt or lose. Venia just wasn't counter adapting at all like he usually does.

:150:
 
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Rizen

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How am I johning? I explained how Venia was playing worse than usual, I'm not making excuses for him.

Once Mr E was able to consistently parry and Up B OOS SH Nair and SH Fair, Venia kinda fell apart. He did not mix up his approaches at all like he usually would. Even the commentators caught on to how little Venia was grabbing.

Plus, his run through winners was honestly lighter than usual; if he ran into NickC, Gen, or even Dill playing like that he might've lost too. To think Venia can still make it to grands even though he was autopiloting or whatever isn't too farfetched at all.

When a Greninja is fighting a character with excellent OOS punishes, or an opponent who knows how to consistently parry his SH Falling aerials (which, from my experience fighting Mr E, he knows how to parry these options pretty well) the Greninja player is forced to either adapt or lose. Venia just wasn't counter adapting at all like he usually does.

:150:
It's basically making excuses for Greninja losing but if Venia had been playing better and won people would be praising the win. It's like saying it only counts when the Greninja player does better. He beat Mr.E in winner's and Mr.E adapted and ran it back. The fact is that it was a high level grand finals between two top players and nothing discredits that. I'm not saying this proves Lucina wins the MU or anything but give Mr.E and Lucina the credit they deserve. Lucina may be basic but she's a top tier with amazing option coverage.
 
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It's basically making excuses for Greninja losing but if Venia had been playing better and won people would be praising the win. It's like saying it only counts when the Greninja player does better. He beat Mr.E in winner's and Mr.E adapted and ran it back. The fact is that it was a high level grand finals between two top players and nothing discredits that. I'm not saying this proves Lucina wins the MU or anything but give Mr.E and Lucina the credit they deserve. Lucina may be basic but she's a top tier with amazing option coverage.
No one is discrediting Mr E; giving explanations for a matchup outcome is not the same as making johns. One involves discrediting a player. The other injects healthy skepticism into results-based conclusions made with few data points.
 
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bc1910

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Others have already verbalised my thoughts on Cloud; he’s simply overshadowed. Ironically he’s become one of the harder sword characters to use, in stark contrast with his ridiculously easy bake playstyle in Smash 4.

The two key issues for me are his neutral and recovery. We all know several of his best buttons were nerfed, but the most crippling changes for Cloud actually comes from the game mechanics in my opinion. In Smash 4 “Cloud dashing” was unique, basically using Cloud’s excellent foxtrot (I don’t have data to hand but I believe it was the best in the game by a decent margin) to move effectively in neutral. Well, guess what, everyone can do it now with the initial dash changes. On recovery, the changes to airdodge hurt him perhaps the most out of any character. Smash 4 Cloud’s “bad” recovery was largely mitigated by drifting back to the stage and spamming airdodge; even without Limit, Cloud had good air speed, an average fall speed and a heavy weight with the ever-present threat of throwing some ridiculous aerial button. He was able to get back to the stage nearly for free in a surprising number of situations. This of course is no longer the case.

Death by a thousand cuts still describes Cloud, a lot of his stuff has been directly nerfed, but I don’t think the mechanic changes help him either. This isn’t to say he can’t be good, he still has some great strengths and I can comfortably see him as a high tier.

It's basically making excuses for Greninja losing but if Venia had been playing better and won people would be praising the win. It's like saying it only counts when the Greninja player does better. He beat Mr.E in winner's and Mr.E adapted and ran it back. The fact is that it was a high level grand finals between two top players and nothing discredits that. I'm not saying this proves Lucina wins the MU or anything but give Mr.E and Lucina the credit they deserve. Lucina may be basic but she's a top tier with amazing option coverage.
If Venia had won playing like that it would just mean that Mr E had somehow played even worse. I for one wouldn’t be praising the win. If that’s how Venia played the whole tournament I’m honestly shocked he beat E in WFs let alone made it that far in the first place (personal issues notwithstanding; I of course hope the guy is okay).

It’s honestly not a good set for analysis. The two have tons of other sets which would display your point better, some of which Venia wins, some of which E wins.
 
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TTTTTsd

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In Smash 4 “Cloud dashing” was unique, basically using Cloud’s excellent foxtrot (I don’t have data to hand but I believe it was the best in the game by a decent margin)
Cloud was not the only one who possessed this, it was a trait he shared with Game and Watch, to clarify.
 

Shaya

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While it's possible marth's dancing blade has been "stealth buffed", I personally do not think so*,
it's more likely that Marth players actually getting used to spacing with new moveset properties/this engine.

A month? ago I didn't know that the final strike of dancing blade forward did not have a hitbox tied to the sword at all, now I do I'm getting tipper finishes on dancing blade with significantly more consistency (I generally know whether or not I'm going to get a tipper final hit reactively to my position/their DI now)
Any astute Marth would likely be catching up to that prospect as well. It's primarily a matter of "waiting" an extra few frames for characters to stay/fall in the sweetspot areas.


But the main shtick about that video is: Isabelle is a floaty, there didn't seem to be ANY DI; and it impacts things a lot, and the Marth player waited for the Isabelle to "fall away" after the 2nd/3rd hits before doing the 4th, I wouldn't be surprised if buffered air dodges might've come through sometimes.
It's also a difficulty at higher percents/rage, as the knockback of the third hit increases in KB and as the final hit of DB does not hit above Marth's shoulders whatsoever (despite the sword swinging through there) it's where almost the entirety of "marths db doesn't work" comes from.

tl;dr Marth players learning how to time button presses, and opponent characteristics like gravity impact the ease of the 4th hit connecting significantly -if an opponent is "stuck" in the hits slightly above you, then even doing the third hit upwards will not necessarily push them back in front of you for the DB4-F.

*I'm not one to talk about placebo powers, especially with marth - on the release of 3.0 I was briefly convinced that the engine had been altered to change interpolation of hitboxes, as I was finding getting tipper back air on the rise of a jump was actually happening.
Ironically, this might've also impacted dancing blade positively if this were true, hmmmm suddenly thinking, oh wait, the hitbox positions are static, never mind.



Briefly take this semi-relevant opportunity to say that Lucina's nerf to forward air knockback was probably more significant in bridging or shifting who's better than fsmash. Tipper fair is one of the easiest tippers Marth has to hit (behind ftilt, and maybe dair) and him being able to kill any notable margin earlier is going to be a very easy "tell"/common occurrence while watching Luci matches 'well if that was marth it would've killed'.

I also think in a meta where people are getting more accustomed to parrying, characters with big arcs/etc are FORCED to space well to not give themselves massive risks in neutral or be reversed upon in advantage. The frequency of me catching parry attempts with an instant sh tipper fair or a small wait first produces quite a good feeling.
 
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Cloud was not the only one who possessed this, it was a trait he shared with Game and Watch, to clarify.
As well as Lucario. And to en extent, Diddy and ZSS. All 5 of them still benefit from dashing in Ultimate as well.
Hilariously enough, there was one character that had better dash frame data than the five of them (and still benefits from dashing in Ultimate, but likely not as much), and that was Puff, but given the lack of distance and her weak ground game in Smash 4, it's very understandable why most people would neither know about it or even use it. Still, Dash to Rest was a useful tool in Smash 4 thanks to how quick of an option it was, but it didn't transition (well) into Ultimate thanks to how distant she is when attempting to run at a character.
 
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Rizen

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If Venia had won playing like that it would just mean that Mr E had somehow played even worse. I for one wouldn’t be praising the win. If that’s how Venia played the whole tournament I’m honestly shocked he beat E in WFs let alone made it that far in the first place (personal issues notwithstanding; I of course hope the guy is okay).

It’s honestly not a good set for analysis. The two have tons of other sets which would display your point better, some of which Venia wins, some of which E wins.
So you haven't even seen the tournament? I'm tired of excuses. This wasn't some pools match where he SDed twice; it was grand finals. Poor Venia he was only playing well enough to get to GFs winner's side! Believe whatever you want; I'm not going to argue anymore.

On the subject of Cloud: he has great mobility, good frame data for a swordsman and a huge sword. Cloud may not be what he was in SSB4 but he's a solid high tier.
 
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In other news at a local an Isabelle player Bocchi manged to beat Ally 2-1 in a set for one heck of an upset

Could not find any video but gool ol' ANTi has a tweet of the end of the match

1139728077204836353 is not a valid tweet id


Goes to show you that if a player using a character considered a contender for the worst in the game can take a set vs a pro player using a character considered the contender the best in the game. The balance of the game is in a pretty good place all things considered
 
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bc1910

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I can see Isabelle having some decent tools to fight Snake. Slingshot is a good projectile, pocket can steal Snake’s stuff and provides invincibility and Lloid gives her some ground control (however crappy the move is). I can even see fishing rod being useful if Snake chooses to camp without shield.

I personally find Isabelle really hard to fight. Good to see she can perform well in the right hands.

So you haven't even seen the tournament? I'm tired of excuses. This wasn't some pools match where he SDed twice; it was grand finals. Poor Venia he was only playing well enough to get to GFs winner's side! Believe whatever you want; I'm not going to argue anymore.

On the subject of Cloud: he has great mobility, good frame data for a swordsman and a huge sword. Cloud may not be what he was in SSB4 but he's a solid high tier.
I saw some of it on stream, Venia was playing far better than this.

Taking into consideration how well each player was playing is not making excuses, it gives the set context. You fixate on this being a grand finals set as if that means players can’t be shook or play badly, regardless of how they get there. It’s like saying Nario vs Light at Collision was a great example of the Fox vs Ganondorf MU, and that must be so because it was Loser’s Semis and deep into the tournament. In reality Light was incredibly shook during the set, made tons of mistakes and generally made himself Ganon fodder in a MU that leans heavily in Fox’s favour. It offers little analytical value.

There’s also no need to shut down the (perfectly cordial) argument simply because counter points are being made.
 
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Rizen

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In other news at a local an Isabelle player Bocchi manged to beat Ally 2-1 in a set for one heck of an upset

Could not find any video but gool ol' ANTi has a tweet of the end of the match

1139728077204836353 is not a valid tweet id


Goes to show you that if a player using a character considered a contender for the worst in the game can take a set vs a pro player using a character considered the contender the best in the game. The balance of the game is in a pretty good place all things considered
Ultimate is like Dark Souls; even the grunt enemies can kill you if they get going. Expect this kind of upset occasionally. Too bad there isn't a video.
 

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I do have to question how much of that was actually a character showing competitive viability and how much was a simple lack of character matchup knowleddge though.
 

Spinosaurus

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Goes to show you that if a player using a character considered a contender for the worst in the game can take a set vs a pro player using a character considered the contender the best in the game. The balance of the game is in a pretty good place all things considered
I feel like if anything this should clear any notion of her being contender for worst. Not to say she's particularly good, but I'm gonna have to agree with what Thinkaman said earlier that she has tools that are fundamentally strong enough for her to at least hold her own, even if she's overshadowed by her counterpart for having a particularly strong and complementary side b.
 

Vyrnx

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Cloud...oh man Cloud on Ulltimate. He is kinda karmic place. He is overall still a solid charactsr here he seems ironically to get outclassed by many other swordies , and another character with a similar gimkick but ill get to that. In short, many of them have taken qualites and strengths that he had back in Smash 4. Which is what likely drove much of his old playbase away.

Lets see.

:ultike: basically has Cloud's Smash 4 nair, yeah nuff said there.

:ultroy:/:ultchrom: seems to have the raw power and explosiveness without really needed limit. Rpy side-b is almost Clouds LCS without needed limit, and has an overall better recovery.

:ultlucina: as ursurped the postion as the swordie, no the top-tier character period who is relatively basic, easy to pick up do very well with just with a solid grasp on fundamentals.


Now for the most ironic part :ultjoker: now came as post-launch DLC character and his Arsene mechanic its, well basically a superior "limit break' to Cloud's now.

It im the great mobility combined with the giant gitboxes ans power of Limit Cloud, but it lasts nearly twice as long, gives him a much more noticable power increase, AND does not immedately get used up if Joker uses any of his improved specials. Joker cannot mannually charge his of course, but he still manages to get it as much as Cloud can get Limit in any set

Cloud now is just well, just another solid swordie in a game where there are better options to pick. He is basically in the same position as Marth right now
Even if these characters have specific moves that are better than Cloud's in a vacuum, there's no other character with Cloud's complete set of attributes or with a straight up buffed version of his moveset. For a specific example, no other high mobility character has an aerial spacing option comparable to Cloud's bair--if a player feels like they can get something out of this (which obviously they can), I think this--in addition to several other unique things about the character--automatically prevents any scenario where Cloud is inarguably outclassed.

There are some inaccuracies as well (Ike's nair isn't really similar to s4 cloud nair outside of having a disjoint and clockwise animation, LCS can be used effectively on aerial opponents as opposed to DED), but the main issue with the idea of a character being outclassed is that it stems from the idea that Smash characters fall into certain 'roles' (and that some characters fulfill whatever role more successfully)--but in general every sort of character archetype grouping for Smash characters ends up being pretty bad (and probably useless). This is because obviously archetypes are impossible to define in this game (special characteristics of moves (e.g. disjointedness) vary across individual character movesets, combined with general stat differences, character size, unique attributes (e.g. Arsene), everything else, you've got something impossible here).

There can of course be broad similarities between characters--Ike has a sword, Lucina has a sword; Samus has a charge ball, Lucario has a charge ball. But when it comes to a question of "why would a player choose to play x character instead of y character (that shares some broad similarity)?" the answer will almost certainly lie in the specifics, where the broad similarity is potentially less important than details--speed, an individual move, a combination of individual moves, etc. Why would a Smash 4 player choose to main Greninja instead of Sheik when they share several broad similarities--but Sheik is better? (--for newer users, this was, btw, an extremely common question)--It probably has to do with specifics--greninja's strong da/dg "50/50"s, footstool combos, etc. Even though the characters share several broad similarities, when it comes to player preference, specific differences are just as important.

For similar reasons, I think it's impossible for broad similarities between characters to literally translate into archetypes--without archetypes I don't think there can be actual instances of characters being outclassed. there are so many things that make up any given character- looking at these comprehensively rather than through the lens of impossible oversimplifications is both more useful and more interesting.

(other half-baked stuff not related to your post ziodyne): one can also look at a tier list and ask, "why does this player main a mid tier when they could do so much better with x top tier (that [usually] shares some broad similarity)?" but even in this case there's no guarantee that the tier difference is more important than the specific details that went into that player's character choice--what a tier list actually says to a player on an individual level is actually quite hard to define. Tier lists are always describing something much larger (e.g. top level competitive play, even a huge number of tournaments of varying level across multiple regions, netplay, prettiest alts, whatever)--I wouldn't say that tier lists literally don't matter on an individual level (unless whatever the tier list is describing is just totally separate from the individual situation of the reader (e.g., someone who plays for fun in limited amounts reading a tier list based on top 8s of nationals))--in a competitive video game with a character select screen, character choice is basically the most important thing--but that ultimately player preference is probably far more important than 'tier placement'. and these preferences are based on a characters comprehensive set of attributes/moves rather than tier placement, regardless of how these may be related. There's no guarantee that ZeRo would have been more successful as a Bayo main rather than Diddy main--there's no guarantee that that one dude who's sick with Little Mac would start destroying everyone (or be equally successful in the first place) with Ult Peach. These are just things to keep in mind when speculating about character choice--but ultimately, we really wouldn't want situations where characters are actually outclassed or player preference doesn't matter. That would be a boring game.
 
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Well, Esam has released his 3.1 tier-list (can be found on YouTube if someone's interested) and I think it's actually appropriate to say that even top-players aren't always correct when they talk about characters. It gets even worse when they are spreading misinformation about certain characters or try to downplay them.
I don't want to tackle his tier-list all too much but his placing of Zelda is very misguided as he spreads some kind of misinformation.
I really don't see why the dTilt nerf is such a big deal whenever she's talked about. I doubt anyone wants this move to be able to connect into other stuff, mostly because of her fAir. I mean, I'd take it but it also would be super busted and a kill confirm at like 70%. It's good (for the game, not really for the character :p) that this move sends the opponent further away than it did in Sm4sh.
Also the phantom management isn't that hard at all. It has 5 levels and not the 9 mentioned in the video. If it were 9 then he would be right but bruh.

On top of that, the real flaws weren't even mentioned and that is mostly her grab. Disadvantage is also questionable but like Esam said, comboing her can be difficult since Nayru has a pretty good hitbox and invincibility.

Just wanted to say that you should be cautious when someone talks about a character in a tier-list video, especially when this person doesn't fight this character normally. The set at Prime Saga was probably the only time Esam ever fought a "good" Zelda at a tournament.

Don't know about the other characters but I'd be extra cautious there as well.
 

$.A.F.

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Well, Esam has released his 3.1 tier-list (can be found on YouTube if someone's interested) and I think it's actually appropriate to say that even top-players aren't always correct when they talk about characters. It gets even worse when they are spreading misinformation about certain characters or try to downplay them.
I don't want to tackle his tier-list all too much but his placing of Zelda is very misguided as he spreads some kind of misinformation.
I really don't see why the dTilt nerf is such a big deal whenever she's talked about. I doubt anyone wants this move to be able to connect into other stuff, mostly because of her fAir. I mean, I'd take it but it also would be super busted and a kill confirm at like 70%. It's good (for the game, not really for the character :p) that this move sends the opponent further away than it did in Sm4sh.
Also the phantom management isn't that hard at all. It has 5 levels and not the 9 mentioned in the video. If it were 9 then he would be right but bruh.

On top of that, the real flaws weren't even mentioned and that is mostly her grab. Disadvantage is also questionable but like Esam said, comboing her can be difficult since Nayru has a pretty good hitbox and invincibility.

Just wanted to say that you should be cautious when someone talks about a character in a tier-list video, especially when this person doesn't fight this character normally. The set at Prime Saga was probably the only time Esam ever fought a "good" Zelda at a tournament.

Don't know about the other characters but I'd be extra cautious there as well.
I definitely agree here. Similar thing with Doctor Mario. He said Doc can’t kill when literally every move except d tilt, cape, and early Nair kills. He said his only combo was down throw Nado which isn’t even a true combo when doc has a bunch of true down throw combos. He also said he had the worst neutral in the game when pill combos into all of his aerials, up tilt, up special and nado which are all kill moves. Also he put Cloud only two spots above Bayo at 45.
 

FruitLoop

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
52
Well, Esam has released his 3.1 tier-list (can be found on YouTube if someone's interested) and I think it's actually appropriate to say that even top-players aren't always correct when they talk about characters. It gets even worse when they are spreading misinformation about certain characters or try to downplay them.
I don't want to tackle his tier-list all too much but his placing of Zelda is very misguided as he spreads some kind of misinformation.
I really don't see why the dTilt nerf is such a big deal whenever she's talked about. I doubt anyone wants this move to be able to connect into other stuff, mostly because of her fAir. I mean, I'd take it but it also would be super busted and a kill confirm at like 70%. It's good (for the game, not really for the character :p) that this move sends the opponent further away than it did in Sm4sh.
Also the phantom management isn't that hard at all. It has 5 levels and not the 9 mentioned in the video. If it were 9 then he would be right but bruh.

On top of that, the real flaws weren't even mentioned and that is mostly her grab. Disadvantage is also questionable but like Esam said, comboing her can be difficult since Nayru has a pretty good hitbox and invincibility.

Just wanted to say that you should be cautious when someone talks about a character in a tier-list video, especially when this person doesn't fight this character normally. The set at Prime Saga was probably the only time Esam ever fought a "good" Zelda at a tournament.

Don't know about the other characters but I'd be extra cautious there as well.
Yea half of the things that ESAM said about D3 were completely wrong. The biggest issue with D3 is not his disadvantage, it's still an issue but having multiple jumps always helped him out but I guess being combo food and being bad at ledge as long as you just avoid getting sharked is probably more than enough to still make it easy to deal 100% to D3. The issue is his NEUTRAL which ESAM thought was one of his strongest parts ironically. He claimed that F-Tilt and B-Air were good neutral tools while implying their safe when F-Tilt is -22 on Shield even when maxed space meaning you can freely hit D3 with whatever you want assuming you aren't on wifi and Back-Air is -8 on shield on top of the fact that D3 has to likely jump again because none of his ground moves are fast at all so thats another 3 frames tacked onto him which becomes even worse of an issue if you just hit him out with either a super quick OoS option or even just an aerial since he can't do anything about it. Also D3 can't camp in neutral with gordos due to them being sent back easily and he's too slow to really force pressure. He only really has one way to deal with shields now in the form of B-Reverse inhale landings but rolling behind D3 is more than enough to get a free neutral win or even just take a stock for free due to his high endlag on Inhale. I mean what he said about gordo was relatively agreeable it's pretty oppressive knowing the matchup or not in disadvantage since its so good at ledge AND frame trapping and punishing jumps and trying to reset neutral through a fastfall aerial if it doesnt buffer in time. Either way i'm a bit disappointed by his analysis on the Big D.

It's not a BAD tier list, it just has a few wack placements and while I appreciate ESAM's explanation, I can definitely tell that he's just writing fluff for half of the cast or he just maybe only looked at tournament sets on what top level players are doing and his own experiences at tournaments and only used that for his analysis rather than going to other sources for research such as character discords and the likes.
 

Repli.Cant

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Yeah I was watching ESAM's comments on :ultbowserjr: and I had to stop when he said Mechakoopa was a "mediocre at best tool because you can shield it and pick it up" (Only 2 of his points in by the way). Mechakoopa isn't mediocre, and it's easily his best special move. At face value it seems decent-- a moving time bomb that travels the stage for a limited time, weakened by the fact that you can shield it and pick it up. However the move shines through it's applications.

You don't always place it in front of you. Most of the time, it's best to place it behind you, because it will turn around once it hits ledge and then it is able to follow behind you, helping :ultbowserjr:'s approach. If he gets punished, Mechakoopa is there to help trade. If he gets grabbed, Mechakoopa can interrupt it if they're not quick enough. It also allows Jr. to pick it up himself, giving him a decent, fast moving projectile that he can use to punish or edgeguard with. It helps extend his combos and can allow some pretty nasty stuff with fthrow sending farther if you time it after the Mechakoopa nips someone you've grabbed.

Next he calls Cannonball one of the worst nBs in the game and I just can't agree with that. I'm not saying it's secretly OP or better than Wolf laser or something, but he completely neglects it's utility as an edgeguarding move and an aerial pressure tool, especially now that aerial Cannonball doesn't fire slower than the molasses migration. When used in tandem with Mechakoopa, it can punish the famous "just shield Mechakoopa" by obliterating your shield. The projectile itself is a nice coasting ball that has a pretty strong hitbox for 90% of the time the ball is out, that can also power through some other projectiles and keep going (the cannonball is stronger the more you charge it). Not to mention you can now have two cannonballs out at any given time, allowing even more aerial "off-limits" pressure. This move was buffed a heckaton in the transition from S4 to Ultimate, and it's certainly not a bad projectile. Outclassed, maybe, but it gets it's job done.

ESAM mentions it's difficult to land dsmash and while he's not entirely off-base, dsmash isn't one of those "throw it out" kind of moves some characters have. It's a pretty fast punish tool only, or you use it if you get a successful jab lock. He says it's difficult to hit bair when I don't feel that's the case at all.

He also says it's difficult for :ultbowserjr: to anti-air and... no. Uair is a frame 6 disjoint that travels very fast, combined with actually decent air speed and accel that allows him to quickly punish people that are getting overzealous from above. He's got an utilt that is a pretty alright disjoint that travels in an arc in front and above him, and finally a frame 7 usmash that lingers forever that was just buffed to kill earlier.

"Mediocre OoS options" can be argued upon, but they're not terrible, that's for sure. Nair is fast and has good horizontal reach, but can be low profiled. Usmash is a frame 7 OoS option that kills pretty well now, but also can be low profiled. Jr. struggles against rushdowns in general, but characters that low profile consistently are characters like Pichu. Kirby doesn't get whiffed because Jr. is typically playing the safe, disjointed, long range game.

"Struggles to KO" is something that only happens when you're fighting swords because they just outrange Jr. in general, and are typically his worst MUs. Ramham kills consistently at sub around 75% on midweights. He's got a great fsmash that is safe on shield and can shield poke pretty well that kills, bair kills pretty well, the aforementioned usmash, bthrow is a pseudo-kill throw, and his edgeguarding prowess in nothing to scoff at, between Cannonballs and Mechakoopas and Abandoned Ships raining from above.

"Struggles to rack on damage" like uthrow uair doesn't give him 50% from 0 on anyone but the smaller floaties. Dthrow doing 15% and sending offstage for edgeguards, the chip you'll be taking from Mechakoopa and uairs and fairs and bairs and Kart punishes (which moves just a bit slower than Sonic now)...

He's straight up wrong when he says "you don't have your double jump if you use your side B on the ground." You'll still have it whether you start it on the ground or in the air.

Sorry this turned into a rant but misinformation is :ultbowserjr:'s worst enemy currently since no one wants to play him. He's definitely a solid character that could maybe use a nudge or two (I say less endlag on summoning Mechakoopa but I digress). Just... outclassed. But fun!
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,162
Well, Esam has released his 3.1 tier-list (can be found on YouTube if someone's interested) and I think it's actually appropriate to say that even top-players aren't always correct when they talk about characters. It gets even worse when they are spreading misinformation about certain characters or try to downplay them.
I don't want to tackle his tier-list all too much but his placing of Zelda is very misguided as he spreads some kind of misinformation.
I really don't see why the dTilt nerf is such a big deal whenever she's talked about. I doubt anyone wants this move to be able to connect into other stuff, mostly because of her fAir. I mean, I'd take it but it also would be super busted and a kill confirm at like 70%. It's good (for the game, not really for the character :p) that this move sends the opponent further away than it did in Sm4sh.
Also the phantom management isn't that hard at all. It has 5 levels and not the 9 mentioned in the video. If it were 9 then he would be right but bruh.

On top of that, the real flaws weren't even mentioned and that is mostly her grab. Disadvantage is also questionable but like Esam said, comboing her can be difficult since Nayru has a pretty good hitbox and invincibility.

Just wanted to say that you should be cautious when someone talks about a character in a tier-list video, especially when this person doesn't fight this character normally. The set at Prime Saga was probably the only time Esam ever fought a "good" Zelda at a tournament.

Don't know about the other characters but I'd be extra cautious there as well.
Yeah, I really think people put too much stock in them. Just look what ZeRo's early ones did to people. They hold far too much sway for talking about things they don't really know all that much about. I.e. most of the roster that isn't a main or a common opponent.
 

PK Gaming

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Well, Esam has released his 3.1 tier-list (can be found on YouTube if someone's interested) and I think it's actually appropriate to say that even top-players aren't always correct when they talk about characters. It gets even worse when they are spreading misinformation about certain characters or try to downplay them.
I don't want to tackle his tier-list all too much but his placing of Zelda is very misguided as he spreads some kind of misinformation.
I really don't see why the dTilt nerf is such a big deal whenever she's talked about. I doubt anyone wants this move to be able to connect into other stuff, mostly because of her fAir. I mean, I'd take it but it also would be super busted and a kill confirm at like 70%. It's good (for the game, not really for the character :p) that this move sends the opponent further away than it did in Sm4sh.
Also the phantom management isn't that hard at all. It has 5 levels and not the 9 mentioned in the video. If it were 9 then he would be right but bruh.

On top of that, the real flaws weren't even mentioned and that is mostly her grab. Disadvantage is also questionable but like Esam said, comboing her can be difficult since Nayru has a pretty good hitbox and invincibility.

Just wanted to say that you should be cautious when someone talks about a character in a tier-list video, especially when this person doesn't fight this character normally. The set at Prime Saga was probably the only time Esam ever fought a "good" Zelda at a tournament.

Don't know about the other characters but I'd be extra cautious there as well.
On the other hand, it's important not to get too wound up over your main being undervalued by a top player whenever they release a tier list. Misinformation is bad, but we're talking about a game with 70+ distinct characters. Getting things wrong is going to be inevitable, especially when the player in question only has relevant experience vs a small portion of the cast.

I'm not a mod, but I really don't want to see this trend wherein players write these huge, hypothetical responses against top players because they sold their character short.
 
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From what I heard, he spread a ton of misinformation about :ultrobin:; I don't play the character, though, so I have no clue if that's true or not.

In general, I think it's generally easy for him (or honestly anyone for that matter) to spread erroneous info around because as a whole, most of these characters that are perceived as low tier or worse don't have much of a tournament presence, or any at all. This sort of just leads to competitive players "theory crafting" or trying to deduce reasons as to why said characters don't see much play in general. Given their lack of experience with said characters as a result, however, it's hard for them to always come up with reasons that line up with that of experts on those characters, which then inevitably leads to a ton of wrong info being spread around.

I imagine ESAM's only exposure to :ultzelda: was just when he fought against her at Prime Saga; with that little info on someone's back, it's really hard for anyone to come up with a full analysis of Zelda's place in the competitive metagame without screwing things up. I imagine he also hasn't any sort of exposure to characters like :ultrobin: and :ultdoc: because 1. He doesn't know anyone who actually uses these characters, and 2. Given how much he needs to dedicate to practicing for tourneys, he probably doesn't have the time to be able to research them or the players who use them. If I were to take a guess, ESAM would really only start evaluating characters more accurately when they start CONSISTENTLY becoming possible threats to HIS placements at tournaments in particular. Given that he's lost twice to Maister now, that would explain the sudden leap in placements :ultgnw: has made between his two tier lists.


But like PKGaming said, there's over 70 characters in the game currently. Even if there is some specialist that is doing god's work with a given character like :ultluigi:(Elegant) or :ultsonic: (KEN), I imagine it's hard for any person to keep track of every single character's success, as well as which players to follow for each character. That, and ESAM hasn't fought either Elegant or KEN consistently to consider them possible threats to his performances in tournaments, so from a competitive standpoint, there wouldn't be much of a reason for him to spend more time learning about those characters. This also makes it really easy for certain characters to fly under people's radar, which can also lead to skewed placements and information that's given about these types of characters. :ultcloud: is still in the top 25 on OrionStats, and yet I'm pretty sure half of the player base (not talking about anyone here) doesn't even know who and where his results are coming from.


I'm not trying to make excuses for ESAM, I'm just trying to come up with possible reasons that misinformation tends to plague most competitive players' tier lists to this day. That said, there's absolutely no excuse for players who continue to rank :ultshulk: as a top tier character (let alone a top 5 character), but I know I'm beating a dead horse at this point.
 
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PK Gaming

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Still, top players should stop pretending they know let alone understand a lot of fighters. They should be called out on it. Admittedly, this is probably not going to get to them here, but they should be called out.
Struggling to see how they're "pretending" when every single one of them has prefaced their tier lists with "this is just my opinion"
 
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On the other hand, it's important not to get too wound up over your main being undervalued by a top player whenever they release a tier list.
Personally, I think it's more annoying when top players overrate characters.

I'm not a mod, but I really don't want to see this trend wherein players write these huge, hypothetical responses against top players because they sold their character short.
I think they're fun to read. I'm not going to write a huge response but he's wrong about the Lucina fair nerf potentially being a buff, it's pretty much a straight up nerf.
 
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I imagine ESAM's only exposure to :ultzelda: was just when he fought against her at Prime Saga; with that little info on someone's back, it's really hard for anyone to come up with a full analysis of Zelda's place in the competitive metagame without screwing things up. I imagine he also hasn't any sort of exposure to characters like :ultrobin: and :ultdoc: because 1. He doesn't know anyone who actually uses these characters, and 2. Given how much he needs to dedicate to practicing for tourneys, he probably doesn't have the time to be able to research them or the players who use them. If I were to take a guess, ESAM would really only start evaluating characters more accurately when they start CONSISTENTLY becoming possible threats to HIS placements at tournaments in particular. Given that he's lost twice to Maister now, that would explain the sudden leap in placements :ultgnw: has made between his two tier lists.
If I recall, ESAM has faced Lui$' and Stroder's Doc before. ESAM did well against Lui$' Doc (3-0, usually a 2-stock), and went last stock against Stroder's Doc. So he has some top level experience against Doc.

But I am no way justifying that low of a placement for him.
 

Avokha

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From what I heard, he spread a ton of misinformation about :ultrobin:; I don't play the character, though, so I have no clue if that's true or not.
Gonna confirm this assessment for you. In his segment about Robin, he shows how little he really knows about the character when he mentions how bad Arcfire is to use in neutral. The thing he doesn't seem to understand is that arcfire doesn't NEED to be a neutral tool, it's niche is in netting kills in the advantage state, and even then arcfire isn't even all that integral to Robin's gameplan beyond ledgetrapping. Much of our gameplan boils down to using thunders to condition either approaching shields or jumps, and then capitalizing on that. Arcfire actually holds little place in that beyond mixing up the advantage state or covering ledge scenarios.

Additionally, Esam does something rather shady in that segment; the clip he used for that segment was in a set that the Robin won, but only shows the one game he loses. Not sure why he would do this, but the Robin player in question wasn't happy about it.

Thankfully for Robin though, Esam's opinion seems to be part of a growing minority, as several other top level players like Tweek, MVD, and Dabuz have all stated their belief that Robin is in fact a decent character and is solo viable, all things considered.
 
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DelugeFGC

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ESAM is a good player, but a terrible theorycrafter and genuinely makes some of the worst tier lists I've ever seen. I've seen early meta 'guess' tier lists with more accuracy than ESAM's. I don't even bother paying attention to anything he puts out anymore, good player, not good info 90% of the time. I also really don't care for the condescending attitude he often keeps, nor do I agree with some of his methods / ways of going about doing things which can be outright sketchy at times.

Tbh I agree with Fatality. All tier lists are nothing more than opinionated guess lists atm, with some simply being more or less wrong than other ones. I currently do not believe a truly 'accurate' tier list exists atm.
 
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On the other hand, it's important not to get too wound up over your main being undervalued by a top player whenever they release a tier list. Misinformation is bad, but we're talking about a game with 70+ distinct characters. Getting things wrong is going to be inevitable, especially when the player in question only has relevant experience vs a small portion of the cast.

I'm not a mod, but I really don't want to see this trend wherein players write these huge, hypothetical responses against top players because they sold their character short.
I don't mind thst but if something isn't correct it should be corrected.
 
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