Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Daisycakes]

Actually no. Ryu's Roundhouse is indeed smaller than Ken's.

But that would be most likely be a design choice. Ken's Roundhouse is a special. Not a normal.

The placements are a bit different, but the size is the same.

Spoiler: Ryu's heavy jab

if(is_excute){
WorkModule__on_flag(Flag=FIGHTER_RYU_INSTANCE_WORK_ID_FLAG_FINAL_HIT_CANCEL)
}

frame(Frame=9)
if(is_excute){
ATTACK(ID=0, Part=0, Bone=top, Damage=10.0, Angle=50, KBG=110, FKB=0, BKB=40, Size=4.5, X=0.0, Y=17.0, Z=11.9, X2=0.0, Y2=14.0, Z2=5.4, Hitlag=1.5, SDI=1.0, Clang/Rebound=ATTACK_SETOFF_KIND_ON, FacingRestrict=ATTACK_LR_CHECK_POS, SetWeight=False, ShieldDamage=0, Trip=0.0, Rehit=0, Reflectable=False, Absorbable=False, Flinchless=False, DisableHitlag=False, Direct/Indirect=True, Ground/Air=COLLISION_SITUATION_MASK_GA, Hitbits=COLLISION_CATEGORY_MASK_ALL, CollisionPart=COLLISION_PART_MASK_ALL, FriendlyFire=False, Effect=collision_attr_normal, SFXLevel=ATTACK_SOUND_LEVEL_L, SFXType=COLLISION_SOUND_ATTR_RYU_KICK, Type=ATTACK_REGION_KICK)
AttackModule__set_attack_height_all(ATTACK_HEIGHT_HIGH, False)
}

wait(Frames=2)
if(is_excute){
AttackModule__clear_all()
WorkModule__off_flag(Flag=FIGHTER_RYU_INSTANCE_WORK_ID_FLAG_FINAL_HIT_CANCEL)
}

Spoiler: Ken's Command Attack

if(is_excute){
WorkModule__on_flag(Flag=FIGHTER_RYU_INSTANCE_WORK_ID_FLAG_FINAL_HIT_CANCEL)
}

frame(Frame=9)
if(is_excute){
ATTACK(ID=0, Part=0, Bone=top, Damage=12.0, Angle=50, KBG=103, FKB=0, BKB=41, Size=4.5, X=0.0, Y=16.0, Z=15.0, X2=0.0, Y2=11.0, Z2=6.4, Hitlag=1.5, SDI=1.0, Clang/Rebound=ATTACK_SETOFF_KIND_ON, FacingRestrict=ATTACK_LR_CHECK_POS, SetWeight=False, ShieldDamage=-5, Trip=0.0, Rehit=0, Reflectable=False, Absorbable=False, Flinchless=False, DisableHitlag=False, Direct/Indirect=True, Ground/Air=COLLISION_SITUATION_MASK_GA, Hitbits=COLLISION_CATEGORY_MASK_ALL, CollisionPart=COLLISION_PART_MASK_ALL, FriendlyFire=False, Effect=collision_attr_normal, SFXLevel=ATTACK_SOUND_LEVEL_L, SFXType=COLLISION_SOUND_ATTR_KEN_KICK, Type=ATTACK_REGION_KICK)
AttackModule__set_attack_height_all(ATTACK_HEIGHT_HIGH, False)
HIT_NODE(kneer, HIT_STATUS_XLU)
}

frame(Frame=10)
if(is_excute){
WorkModule__on_flag(Flag=FIGHTER_RYU_STATUS_ATTACK_FLAG_BRANCH)
}

frame(Frame=11)
if(is_excute){
AttackModule__clear_all()
WorkModule__off_flag(Flag=FIGHTER_RYU_INSTANCE_WORK_ID_FLAG_FINAL_HIT_CANCEL)
HitModule__set_status_all(HIT_STATUS_NORMAL)
}

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ah, you are right.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

This is a non-conversation. Of all possible things to complain about, no one here is actually complaining about Ken hitboxes. (Big as they may be.)


Edit: So here's an actual topic: Hopefully it's just me, but it feels like doubles is dropping off. (If I had my druthers, we'd play almost exclusively teams, and singles would be this weirdo thing like asking someone to 1v1 you in League of Legends.)

Smash teams has always been underdeveloped and underoptimized, with inconsistent pairings and 3v3 never getting off the ground. The never-before-so-large, never-before-so-balanced roster has further expanded the problem space in Ultimate, so that we basically have no data beyond ancedotes and hunches.

To be blunt, I find almost all attempts to articulate some sort of team strategy framework in Smash to be total horse****. (Defining roles, types, rules for team composition, ect.) The state of the game has barely evolved past kids playing pick-up games in the parking lot, and taking their insights about positions and zone-based passing at face value is going to be a mistake.


To be extra clear, I don't have any special insight into this over anyone else. But I find myself wondering about it a lot, as I focus more and more on doubles.

Here is a challenge: Pick every character's favorite 2v2 teammate.

Doubles just doesn't seem as good in this game as it was in other titles, knockback changes make doubles combos a bit harder to get to work as you have less time to get into a position you can combo off. It feels a lot less engaging as it used to, plus everyone just wants to play squad strike.

Also I don't know if it's just me getting older but I legitimately get lost playing doubles a lot more than I used to in other games. The hit effects, smoke trails and particles effects all got amplified in this game along with the ballon knockback. In 1v1 it's perfectly fine but I find when things get chaotic with 4 people close to each other even with team highlights on I'm losing track of myself a lot more often which is affecting my enjoyment of doubles.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Doubles is imo pure jank.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Come to think of it, it DOES seem a bit silly to have three Pokemon with three radically different gameplans and playstyles all shoved into one character, primarily when you consider 'we are not the majority' and all that when it comes to Smash. I feel a lot of lower-level players could get put off of PT or just would focus on one Pokemon simply because using the other two seems intimidating to them.

Just from like a casual design standpoint, does seem strange.

The thing about casuals is that they don't really care about optimizing their play.

Back when I was a casual Brawl scrub, I just spammed Withdraw / Bullet Seed / Rock Smash and it somehow worked out for me.

 

[Thinkaman]

Doubles is only like 1% about 2-player combos. No one cares how well you can win a 2v1. The interesting aspect is the hyper-complex neutral, where the safety of your options depends on the spacing and state of 4 different sets of inputs.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Just saw that there is a rather big Socal tournament later this day and we finally see FOW on a bigger stage again. Void, Mr. R to name some bigger players are also there.
Hope he can put his Ness to good work. I'm still convinced that Ness is very close to being a top-tier but definitely high-tier and Fow is a really good player.
Sadly, I don't see Ven being there, at least I don't see him on the attendees list on smash.gg but yeah, you can't have everything. Looking forward to some high-level Ness plays then.

 

[Rizen]

's great at doubles if he has a partner with good kill moves. All YL's projectiles setup for combos and he's good at saving his partner offstage with them. He should play defensively and throw chaos around to put opponents in disadvantage. YL's ideal partner would be someone with big aerials that kill early like or maybe .

's the opposite. He has big slashes and needs a quick partner who can save him from combos. Link's Utilt and Usmash in particular are huge and great at punishing landings. He'd do well with one of the electric rats or .

's not good at dubs; he's a huge hurtbox on the battlefield and lacks the power of characters like Ganon. He'd be good with a quick disruptive partner like or but they'd be carrying him. :/

 

[meleebrawler]

's great at doubles if he has a partner with good kill moves. All YL's projectiles setup for combos and he's good at saving his partner offstage with them. He should play defensively and throw chaos around to put opponents in disadvantage. YL's ideal partner would be someone with big aerials that kill early like or maybe .

's the opposite. He has big slashes and needs a quick partner who can save him from combos. Link's Utilt and Usmash in particular are huge and great at punishing landings. He'd do well with one of the electric rats or .

's not good at dubs; he's a huge hurtbox on the battlefield and lacks the power of characters like Ganon. He'd be good with a quick disruptive partner like or but they'd be carrying him. :/

Don't underestimate the utility of a stock tank. K. Rool may not be great at avoiding damage on his own but he's great at not dying, especially with support. He can stay out of the fray as much as possible, taking zoning potshots and if he sees an opportunity, his throws can set things up nicely for his partner (and fthrow can be used defensively with it's collateral hitbox).

 

[Thinkaman]

I can't think of a single character that I'd prefer as a teammate over . I'd probably saw the same for and .

K. Rool's crown is nice, but not worth the other heavies just being scarier, more assertive walls of lethality. His beloved d-throw is far less useful in doubles too.


Heavies are better in doubles than singles just because there is more demand for them as teammates--plenty of characters who have trouble killing or threatening space are happy to have a big boi around, and many are plenty capable of preventing said big boi from getting swarmed.

In the same way, poor recovery and inability to kill are much smaller liabilities, particularly on a good team.

I think mobility is the hardest thing to consider. In theory, mobility's value ought to be stressed more than anything else in doubles--you have more places to go, more windows to exploit, more windows to shut. Sonic can negate Mac's recovery issues far easier than Zelda. Yet we often see this to be not the case. Elegant's Luigi is the teammate of legends. Ancedotally, Incineroar is a delightful team player. "Oh no, I hate teaming with a Snake", said no one ever.

I'm not really sure how to reconcile this.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I can't think of a single character that I'd prefer as a teammate over . I'd probably saw the same for and .

K. Rool's crown is nice, but not worth the other heavies just being scarier, more assertive walls of lethality. His beloved d-throw is far less useful in doubles too.

What about Cannon Vacuum shenanigans? With the right partner that's a pretty good set up for easy off stage spikes. Fire them out of the cannon at an upwards angle off stage with your partner already jumping off of the platform, spike.

 

[KakuCP9]

Late to the party, but I would like to go record to say the Ken/Ryu's hitboxes are completely fair and balanced, probably too much so.
This may seem like a joke, but they really need those hitboxes to command any respect since their air mobility is rigid af in a game where most characters zoom around in the air like hooligans.


Also in terms of Ganon balancing, consider giving him his early Smash4 nair back, the one that didn't connect properly at high percents. It might seem like an odd choice, but a lot of Ganon mains said that they missed his old nair back in Smash4 despite Gannon getting net buffed and still miss it to this day. This probably cause it gave him something he sorely needs, a reliable spacing aerial. Given how strong the first hit was even at max spacing, it allowed Ganon to throw out nair as a way to keep short characters in check and as a OD poke in general. If he had this again, his neutral game be at least on par with Incineroar's cause as is, Ganon's neutral relies too much on gambling on just trying get a hit in. Sure he's rewarded for his troubles, but that game plan isn't sustainable. Granted someone who mained Ganon back in Smash4 would better qualified to talk about it than I am.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

This is a non-conversation. Of all possible things to complain about, no one here is actually complaining about Ken hitboxes. (Big as they may be.)


Edit: So here's an actual topic: Hopefully it's just me, but it feels like doubles is dropping off. (If I had my druthers, we'd play almost exclusively teams, and singles would be this weirdo thing like asking someone to 1v1 you in League of Legends.)

Smash teams has always been underdeveloped and underoptimized, with inconsistent pairings and 3v3 never getting off the ground. The never-before-so-large, never-before-so-balanced roster has further expanded the problem space in Ultimate, so that we basically have no data beyond ancedotes and hunches.

To be blunt, I find almost all attempts to articulate some sort of team strategy framework in Smash to be total horse****. (Defining roles, types, rules for team composition, ect.) The state of the game has barely evolved past kids playing pick-up games in the parking lot, and taking their insights about positions and zone-based passing at face value is going to be a mistake.


To be extra clear, I don't have any special insight into this over anyone else. But I find myself wondering about it a lot, as I focus more and more on doubles.

Here is a challenge: Pick every character's favorite 2v2 teammate.

Doubles has always been my favorite competitive mode both to watch and play. Every now and then I try do drop a post in some doubles threads, but they're largely dead here unfortunately. Between doubles, 3 vs 3, and squad strike not getting anywhere, my interest in discussing and actually participating in competition has been dwindling, but I'm not sure where to start with trying to change the situation.

 

[G. Stache]

I can't think of a single character that I'd prefer as a teammate over . I'd probably saw the same for and .

K. Rool's crown is nice, but not worth the other heavies just being scarier, more assertive walls of lethality. His beloved d-throw is far less useful in doubles too.

Heavies are better in doubles than singles just because there is more demand for them as teammates--plenty of characters who have trouble killing or threatening space are happy to have a big boi around, and many are plenty capable of preventing said big boi from getting swarmed.

In the same way, poor recovery and inability to kill are much smaller liabilities, particularly on a good team.

I think mobility is the hardest thing to consider. In theory, mobility's value ought to be stressed more than anything else in doubles--you have more places to go, more windows to exploit, more windows to shut. Sonic can negate Mac's recovery issues far easier than Zelda. Yet we often see this to be not the case. Elegant's Luigi is the teammate of legends. Ancedotally, Incineroar is a delightful team player. "Oh no, I hate teaming with a Snake", said no one ever.

I'm not really sure how to reconcile this.

Teamwork imo is always going to be a bigger factor than something like mobility or some other game-related strength/weakness when it comes to doubles. The reason you saw Elegant and his double partners (more often then not, he teamed up with a lesser known villager from the same area who went by Aardvark) succeed so much in smash 4 was because communication was very solid all the time. I was rewatching a clip of Elegant and Aardvark teaming together and what you saw was a constant understanding and awareness for the other teammate. When they both went for an edgeguard, for instance, the two would never throw out a hit box that had a good chance of hitting the other. They would let each other play to their strengths. Elegant went down to cover a low recovery with cyclone gimping and Aardvark utilized villagers slingshots ward off a high recovery.

In neutral they would never step on each other’s toes, they played to their strengths and never tried to overextend on any one opponent because once they stayed noncommital, they were both able to help the other out if the other was in a pinch. In one of the interactions I was watching, Aardvark’s villager was getting juggled by a Mario, so Elegant batted his opponent away quickly instead of going for a drawn out low percent combo and approached the Mario to force him away from villager while Mario’s teammate was still in hitstun.

I only listed a few examples and I can go a bit more in depth later if that’s something people are interested in, but keep in mind that when playing any kind of team (e)sport understanding and being aggressively aware of your other teammates is far more beneficial than any individual attribute that you or a character may possess. What good is Sonics incredible speed when you’re not seeing that your teammate needs the help? Awareness and communication, things outside of the engine of smash, is most important imo when it comes to doubles. You don’t just need to understand your opponents, now you gotta understand your teammate too

 

[sleepy_Nex]

I'll complain about . She has great airspeed, a huge Nair and Uair and an invulnerable Bair for an oppressive advantage state. In disadvantage Warp is slippery with little lag for a get out of jail free move. Her neutral's not bad either with projectiles to control space that can kill. She's an obvious top tier and everyone knows it.

I am a bit late with this since this thread is on page 222 now(i've only read up to page 219 atm) but i'll answer to this.

First off Palu having a great airspeed is completely false. It is actually below average (tied with PP at 54-55 of 78) What she has is a great air accel which means that she just can make full use of her below average airspeed.

Second expect for the final hit the nair is not big. You can pretty much safely challange that one with decent non disjointed bair/fairs(mario, donkey bair for example) or disjointed bair/fair +she will lose out every trade. You are right about upair though it's big haha.
Bair has arm invincibility on frame 7-10 which is a huge downgrade from smash4 to ultimate (smash4 being 3-10 ) The new bair is better regardless cuz it can actually kill unlike smash4 bair and has reduced landing lag compared to smash4

Third Warp indeed helps but it isn't as free as say shieldmonade to get out of combos, grenade or zss flipjump. It has 22 frames of landing lag and lacks zeldas hitbox(zeldas upb has 8 more frames landing lag in the tradeoff) 22 frames is enough to escape in situations but if you aren't in range of the ground and have to fall abit after the warp it becomes more punishable and if you warp too much you get predictable and your opponent will start to punish those 22 frames. Like do you see Palumains use it that often that you can call it a "out of jail free move"? I don't think so.

Fourth Neutralb has a faf of 67 frames and sideb has a faf of 71 frames. It heavily depends on the mu wether you can use it in neutral or not cuz both are really laggy. For example in the Fox or Chroy mu neutralb and sideb in neutral is pretty much useless because they can just run up and punish with a smash and even in a mu like ganon you can't throw it out brainlessly. She isn't a true zoner. EF is best in advantage it forces options and catches bad recoveries or DAD's. AR is more of a neutral tool than EF you can use it to force a approach or punish stuff for 13%. Your goal isn't to keep them away.

Some weaknesses Palu has is that she is weak to fast CQC because of her very slowish groundgame(jab is frame8 lolololololololol), Short characters are hard to hit and to start any form of nairplane on, Because of her slowish airspeed she can get juggled hard when you are prepared for warp.

For People that have problems with fighting neutralair: She can't hit grounded short characters with it, it loses to disjoints, it has 12 frames of landing lag which allows a okish portion of the cast to even punish crossups on shield with nair(for example nair onshield on chrom is a free upb everytime)

I think with the recents nerfs to two of her worse mu's (Pichu and Olimar) she is bottom of Toptier right now. In the realm of Lucina and Inkling i guess.

 

[Rizen]

I am a bit late with this since this thread is on page 222 now(i've only read up to page 219 atm) but i'll answer to this.

First off Palu having a great airspeed is completely false. It is actually below average (tied with PP at 54-55 of 78) What she has is a great air accel which means that she just can make full use of her below average airspeed.

Second expect for the final hit the nair is not big. You can pretty much safely challange that one with decent non disjointed bair/fairs(mario, donkey bair for example) or disjointed bair/fair +she will lose out every trade. You are right about upair though it's big haha.
Bair has arm invincibility on frame 7-10 which is a huge downgrade from smash4 to ultimate (smash4 being 3-10 ) The new bair is better regardless cuz it can actually kill unlike smash4 bair and has reduced landing lag compared to smash4

Third Warp indeed helps but it isn't as free as say shieldmonade to get out of combos, grenade or zss flipjump. It has 22 frames of landing lag and lacks zeldas hitbox(zeldas upb has 8 more frames landing lag in the tradeoff) 22 frames is enough to escape in situations but if you aren't in range of the ground and have to fall abit after the warp it becomes more punishable and if you warp too much you get predictable and your opponent will start to punish those 22 frames. Like do you see Palumains use it that often that you can call it a "out of jail free move"? I don't think so.

Fourth Neutralb has a faf of 67 frames and sideb has a faf of 71 frames. It heavily depends on the mu wether you can use it in neutral or not cuz both are really laggy. For example in the Fox or Chroy mu neutralb and sideb in neutral is pretty much useless because they can just run up and punish with a smash and even in a mu like ganon you can't throw it out brainlessly. She isn't a true zoner. EF is best in advantage it forces options and catches bad recoveries or DAD's. AR is more of a neutral tool than EF you can use it to force a approach or punish stuff for 13%. Your goal isn't to keep them away.

Some weaknesses Palu has is that she is weak to fast CQC because of her very slowish groundgame(jab is frame8 lolololololololol), Short characters are hard to hit and to start any form of nairplane on, Because of her slowish airspeed she can get juggled hard when you are prepared for warp.

For People that have problems with fighting neutralair: She can't hit grounded short characters with it, it loses to disjoints, it has 12 frames of landing lag which allows a okish portion of the cast to even punish crossups on shield with nair(for example nair onshield on chrom is a free upb everytime)

I think with the recents nerfs to two of her worse mu's (Pichu and Olimar) she is bottom of Toptier right now. In the realm of Lucina and Inkling i guess.

Someone already corrected me about the airspeed but you're downplaying Palutena. I've tried to challenge Nair with YL and it didn't go well. Look at any Palutena match and you'll see her Nair-plane-ing a good part of the match. That move has good hitboxes and that's all around her.

Warp is very easy to platform cancel and goes a good distance; it's one of the hardest teleport recoveries to punish. It's a top tier disadvantage tool.

Obviously you can't use her projectiles up close but they control a lot of space in front of her and one kills. IDK what you're trying to argue; you're throwing out facts about her projectiles without disproving what I said. And a killing projectile is really good.

Palu's jab is f8 but her DA is f6 and armored. She definitely has swordsman frame data. Her airspeed is made up for by having the 5th best acceleration in the game. If you think Palu gets juggled hard don't try playing a super heavyweight.

This reminds me of when people were saying SSB4 Diddy's Dtilt's bad because it is unsafe on hit at low %s. Sure if you use a move wrong it gets punished. None of that changes how good Nair is at chaining across the stage or walling offstage. Palu's Nair is a great move; it's very oppressive.

Palu might have been bottom of top tier before the patch but she didn't get touched and other characters like Olimar and Pichu got hit hard. She's easily one of the best characters in the game. Keep in mind I never said Palu should be nerfed but she has a lot of great attributes.

 

[Planty]

If we're on the topic of doubles, I would like to nominate as potentially the worst doubles character in the game. Even with his 5 second respawn timer, Luma is essentially permadead in this format due to the amount of hitboxes flying around. What this means is that you're stuck with solo Rosalina, who is a very underwhelming character. She's light, has awkward hitboxes without Luma, average mobility and mediocre frame data prevent her from controlling space and being there for her teammate, and overall she just doesn't have the damage or kill power to make using her worth it. Rosalina really is bottom tier in doubles.

Admittedly, I'm far from a doubles expert, so I'd like to hear from other people on this.

 

[Thinkaman]

If we're on the topic of doubles, I would like to nominate as potentially the worst doubles character in the game. Even with his 5 second respawn timer, Luma is essentially permadead in this format due to the amount of hitboxes flying around. What this means is that you're stuck with solo Rosalina, who is a very underwhelming character. She's light, has awkward hitboxes without Luma, average mobility and mediocre frame data prevent her from controlling space and being there for her teammate, and overall she just doesn't have the damage or kill power to make using her worth it. Rosalina really is bottom tier in doubles.

Admittedly, I'm far from a doubles expert, so I'd like to hear from other people on this.

I think Rosa is weak in the format but that it's not so dire.

She controls space well, and her floaty recovery means her ally almost always has time to address anyone edgeguarding her. Her down-b also has some decent utili for teams that other reflectors don't.

But again, she doesn't like it, and surely no character prefers her as their teammate. I also think this is true for Duck Hunt.

 

[Kiligar]

With the patch’s arrival, I’d like to present my list on who I think and I believe many of you will agree, are the best characters in the game

Everyone knows why he’s here. Ridiculously fast close range options alongside an obnoxious advantage state. His disadvantage state has its weaknesses, but has many work-arounds. A solid candidate for best in the game.

Now, some of you may think Pichu Lite is overrated at this spot. However, the grab range buff in addition to the fall of Pichu and Olimar, alongside Pikachu’s lightning loops and oppressive edgegaurding, he fits right at home. Pikachu’s nimble movement alongside his oppressive neutral, tiny hurtbox and amazing offstage and grab games come together to create another candidate for best in the game.

On Day 1, people said Inkling is strong. Inkling’s still just as strong. A great all around character with few bad matchups. With the fall of the two candidates for the top, and Inkling remaining just as potent, Inkling may just be number one, as was claimed at the game’s release.

Similar situation to Inkling, with the fall of characters at the top giving Wario time to shine. Previously, Tweek, one of the best Ultimate players in the world, shredded through tournament after tournament with Wario. His amazing juggling, solid neutral, and the threat of ending games early with Waft cement his place at the top.

Nintendo: Ok, so we gave him Sheik frame data. How big do you want to make Arsene’s hitboxes?
Sakurai: Yes.

Aside from these five candidates for the best, here are some rising characters in the meta that can be used as solid counterpicks to the above top tiers.

Now, no one takes Mii seriously. No one. But seriously, Mii Swordfighter is looking amazing right now. I’m speaking of the 1322 set with Gale Strike, Chakram, Skyward Slash Dash and Reversal Slash. Everyone knows what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm into U-Air as early as 80 on lightweights. It’s an option that the opponent has to be wary of when approaching, letting Mii Swordfighter condition and zone them. Chakram does exactly what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm and Zone, but it’s slightly different in what confirms you can get off of it. It is more ‘spammable’ due to less end lag and has a higher skill curve due to the variety of angles it can be launched at. One of the best projectiles in the game. The Up-Special can go in any direction, has a decent amount of vertical and horizontal distance, can be used out of shield and crosses up, and has a high damage output. Finally, reversal slash is similar to Mario Cape. Will be interesting to see what skilled players can do with it. As for non-Specials, Mii Swordfighter has fairly good aerials, with Fair having a comical amount of range, and Uair having ludicrous knockback. His other moves get their job done, not quite as notable. Overall, I think Mii Swordfighter’s oppressive neutral and reliable kill confirms really backs some top tiers into a corner, such as Pikachu, Inkling and Snake.

Now, the rest of these characters I don’t have as much knowledge about, but with the power vacuum and the clear and effective strengths these characters possess, I believe they are viable counterpicks.

Now, you can draw on your opinions of these characters, but some of you may think Mewtwo is out of place. No, I don’t think he is. He has gone under the radar even after the buffs. His jab is quicker than ever before and does 25% minimum. Shadow Ball is obscenely strong, killing as early as the average strength smash attack. Up Throw and Back Throw Kill very early. His recovery is amazing, and can even be used on stage as a mix-Up. Mewtwo edgegaurding is monstrous due to his floatiness and wacky powerful aerials with huge range, as well as shadow being a threat. Mewtwo’s disadvantage isn’t great, but his light weight means he can’t be combo’d for long, and his blazing air speed means landing isn’t as difficult as people make it out to be. (If you truly want to struggle to land, use Rosalina) Try him out, and don’t take what Armada said as fact. Mewtwo is on par with Greninja as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

With the patch’s arrival, I’d like to present my list on who I think and I believe many of you will agree, are the best characters in the game

Everyone knows why he’s here. Ridiculously fast close range options alongside an obnoxious advantage state. His disadvantage state has its weaknesses, but has many work-arounds. A solid candidate for best in the game.

Now, some of you may think Pichu Lite is overrated at this spot. However, the grab range buff in addition to the fall of Pichu and Olimar, alongside Pikachu’s lightning loops and oppressive edgegaurding, he fits right at home. Pikachu’s nimble movement alongside his oppressive neutral, tiny hurtbox and amazing offstage and grab games come together to create another candidate for best in the game.

On Day 1, people said Inkling is strong. Inkling’s still just as strong. A great all around character with few bad matchups. With the fall of the two candidates for the top, and Inkling remaining just as potent, Inkling may just be number one, as was claimed at the game’s release.

Similar situation to Inkling, with the fall of characters at the top giving Wario time to shine. Previously, Tweek, one of the best Ultimate players in the world, shredded through tournament after tournament with Wario. His amazing juggling, solid neutral, and the threat of ending games early with Waft cement his place at the top.

Nintendo: Ok, so we gave him Sheik frame data. How big do you want to make Arsene’s hitboxes?
Sakurai: Yes.

Aside from these five candidates for the best, here are some rising characters in the meta that can be used as solid counterpicks to the above top tiers.

Now, no one takes Mii seriously. No one. But seriously, Mii Swordfighter is looking amazing right now. I’m speaking of the 1322 set with Gale Strike, Chakram, Skyward Slash Dash and Reversal Slash. Everyone knows what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm into U-Air as early as 80 on lightweights. It’s an option that the opponent has to be wary of when approaching, letting Mii Swordfighter condition and zone them. Chakram does exactly what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm and Zone, but it’s slightly different in what confirms you can get off of it. It is more ‘spammable’ due to less end lag and has a higher skill curve due to the variety of angles it can be launched at. One of the best projectiles in the game. The Up-Special can go in any direction, has a decent amount of vertical and horizontal distance, can be used out of shield and crosses up, and has a high damage output. Finally, reversal slash is similar to Mario Cape. Will be interesting to see what skilled players can do with it. As for non-Specials, Mii Swordfighter has fairly good aerials, with Fair having a comical amount of range, and Uair having ludicrous knockback. His other moves get their job done, not quite as notable. Overall, I think Mii Swordfighter’s oppressive neutral and reliable kill confirms really backs some top tiers into a corner, such as Pikachu, Inkling and Snake.

Now, the rest of these characters I don’t have as much knowledge about, but with the power vacuum and the clear and effective strengths these characters possess, I believe they are viable counterpicks.

Now, you can draw on your opinions of these characters, but some of you may think Mewtwo is out of place. No, I don’t think he is. He has gone under the radar even after the buffs. His jab is quicker than ever before and does 25% minimum. Shadow Ball is obscenely strong, killing as early as the average strength smash attack. Up Throw and Back Throw Kill very early. His recovery is amazing, and can even be used on stage as a mix-Up. Mewtwo edgegaurding is monstrous due to his floatiness and wacky powerful aerials with huge range, as well as shadow being a threat. Mewtwo’s disadvantage isn’t great, but his light weight means he can’t be combo’d for long, and his blazing air speed means landing isn’t as difficult as people make it out to be. (If you truly want to struggle to land, use Rosalina) Try him out, and don’t take what Armada said as fact. Mewtwo is on par with Greninja as far as I’m concerned.

Why did you mention Joker having Sheik's frame data after like three pages of that being disproven?

 

[Kiligar]

Why did you mention Joker having Sheik's frame data after like three pages of that being disproven?

It’s a hyperbole. He has great frame data, but it’s an exaggeration to draw attention to how the heavyweight power/hitboxes is so volatile alongside quick frame data.

 

[$.A.F.]

With the patch’s arrival, I’d like to present my list on who I think and I believe many of you will agree, are the best characters in the game

Everyone knows why he’s here. Ridiculously fast close range options alongside an obnoxious advantage state. His disadvantage state has its weaknesses, but has many work-arounds. A solid candidate for best in the game.

Now, some of you may think Pichu Lite is overrated at this spot. However, the grab range buff in addition to the fall of Pichu and Olimar, alongside Pikachu’s lightning loops and oppressive edgegaurding, he fits right at home. Pikachu’s nimble movement alongside his oppressive neutral, tiny hurtbox and amazing offstage and grab games come together to create another candidate for best in the game.

On Day 1, people said Inkling is strong. Inkling’s still just as strong. A great all around character with few bad matchups. With the fall of the two candidates for the top, and Inkling remaining just as potent, Inkling may just be number one, as was claimed at the game’s release.

Similar situation to Inkling, with the fall of characters at the top giving Wario time to shine. Previously, Tweek, one of the best Ultimate players in the world, shredded through tournament after tournament with Wario. His amazing juggling, solid neutral, and the threat of ending games early with Waft cement his place at the top.

Nintendo: Ok, so we gave him Sheik frame data. How big do you want to make Arsene’s hitboxes?
Sakurai: Yes.

Aside from these five candidates for the best, here are some rising characters in the meta that can be used as solid counterpicks to the above top tiers.

Now, no one takes Mii seriously. No one. But seriously, Mii Swordfighter is looking amazing right now. I’m speaking of the 1322 set with Gale Strike, Chakram, Skyward Slash Dash and Reversal Slash. Everyone knows what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm into U-Air as early as 80 on lightweights. It’s an option that the opponent has to be wary of when approaching, letting Mii Swordfighter condition and zone them. Chakram does exactly what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm and Zone, but it’s slightly different in what confirms you can get off of it. It is more ‘spammable’ due to less end lag and has a higher skill curve due to the variety of angles it can be launched at. One of the best projectiles in the game. The Up-Special can go in any direction, has a decent amount of vertical and horizontal distance, can be used out of shield and crosses up, and has a high damage output. Finally, reversal slash is similar to Mario Cape. Will be interesting to see what skilled players can do with it. As for non-Specials, Mii Swordfighter has fairly good aerials, with Fair having a comical amount of range, and Uair having ludicrous knockback. His other moves get their job done, not quite as notable. Overall, I think Mii Swordfighter’s oppressive neutral and reliable kill confirms really backs some top tiers into a corner, such as Pikachu, Inkling and Snake.

Now, the rest of these characters I don’t have as much knowledge about, but with the power vacuum and the clear and effective strengths these characters possess, I believe they are viable counterpicks.

Now, you can draw on your opinions of these characters, but some of you may think Mewtwo is out of place. No, I don’t think he is. He has gone under the radar even after the buffs. His jab is quicker than ever before and does 25% minimum. Shadow Ball is obscenely strong, killing as early as the average strength smash attack. Up Throw and Back Throw Kill very early. His recovery is amazing, and can even be used on stage as a mix-Up. Mewtwo edgegaurding is monstrous due to his floatiness and wacky powerful aerials with huge range, as well as shadow being a threat. Mewtwo’s disadvantage isn’t great, but his light weight means he can’t be combo’d for long, and his blazing air speed means landing isn’t as difficult as people make it out to be. (If you truly want to struggle to land, use Rosalina) Try him out, and don’t take what Armada said as fact. Mewtwo is on par with Greninja as far as I’m concerned.

Mewtwo is slept on. But top tier?

 

[RonNewcomb]

Motion to refer to The Hero as EDQG (Every Dragon Quest Guy).

I was thinking Hiro.

Hiro Protagonist.

 

[NairWizard]

Friendly reminder that listing the attributes of a character does not an argument make.

We all know that a character has good/bad airspeed, a strong/weak n-air, good/bad frame data/whatever. We can look that up and put it together ourselves. You're not adding anything by listing such attributes on this forum. But what you can do is tell us how those attributes cause certain matchups to play out.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

M2 might be light weight but he's doesn't get combo'd like a lighter weight character. He's a larger hurtbox (not even factoring in his tail) who doesn't posses a quick aerial to interrupt strings nor can he actually jump away from said strings due to his double jump animation. M2 is plenty easy to combo and being a balloon makes him easy to kill when combos stop working. He is an incredibly fragile character but difference now is his advantage stage isn't borderline like it was before. His recovery is not amazing, it's one of the easier teleports to two frame. (Yoyo down smash off ledge doesn't actually catch most teleport recoveries and just drops them if it hits but M2. Who will get sucked into the yoyo's multihits.) and teleporting on stage isn't that great either given the 30 frames of landing lag and in doing so M2's back is likely to his opponent (and M2 struggles hard to protect his back side.) That will work against slower characters until they start to stand around ledge roll distance. If he's trying to land with it it doesn't grant him any protection till frame 9 which isn't terrible but it's not getting him out of sticky situations easily. He can typically make it to stage from wherever off stage and deter edge guards with up air but it's not fool proof and losing the ability to air dodge multiple times takes away a mixup he had before in aiding in this.

M2 for sure still has a solid stage presence, Shadow Ball is fantastic and he's able to control ground space well with his speed/tilts and specials, but there is a reason you don't see many M2s around anymore. The character simply isn't that great as an overall package.

 

[ZephyrZ]

It’s a hyperbole. He has great frame data, but it’s an exaggeration to draw attention to how the heavyweight power/hitboxes is so volatile alongside quick frame data.

Hyperbole is designed to draw an emotional (as opposed to logical) response out of people which alone is bad enough, but in cases like this it also has the issue of causing misinformation to spread.

It may have its place in satire writing but it really doesn't serve any good purpose here.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Hyperbole is designed to draw an emotional (as opposed to logical) response out of people which alone is bad enough, but in cases like this it also has the issue of causing misinformation to spread.

It may have its place in satire writing but it really doesn't serve any good purpose here.

While I agree with you for this one instance, I don't think everything needs to be made with the intention of eliciting purely logical responses. I guess that's fine in a "competitive discussion" thread, but... when has this thread been perfect?

 

[Thinkaman]

You guys are arguing about arguing. *pumps shotgun*

Anyway, trivia of the day: You can't cancel the PT switch-cooldown timer (with specials) on custom stages or in squad strike. I had no idea.

 

[ZephyrZ]

While I agree with you for this one instance, I don't think everything needs to be made with the intention of eliciting purely logical responses. I guess that's fine in a "competitive discussion" thread, but... when has this thread been perfect?

You guys are arguing about arguing. *pumps shotgun*

...Okay I'll apologize. I'll admit that hyperbole can be a pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, trivia of the day: You can't cancel the PT switch-cooldown timer (with specials) on custom stages or in squad strike. I had no idea.

I still have no idea if that mechanic is meant to be a bug or a feature. On one hand, you'd think they'd patch it out by now. But on the other hand, you still get weird stuff like this.

Not to mention the fact that if you cancel a taunt you still have to wait a moment before you can switch again.

 

[TTTTTsd]

One particularly unique problem to Mewtwo is the combination of weird tail hurtbox and really floaty SH which makes him susceptible to weird reactable crossunder shenanigans during and after certain aerials. It kind of weakens his empty jump game quite a bit and means he gets hit by random stuff a lot more often. It also means low profile crossunders (certain dtilts, Dash attacks that go under moves) can slide under him and hit him.

The airdodge problems are also pretty serious, a lot of what Mewtwo leveraged on in Smash 4 beyond his larger disjoint on tail was the way he could wiggle out of disadvantage fairly easily. I do also think his Fair being slower by 1f has a pretty big impact with his ability to mash against certain air strings, though only to a minor level in comparison to the aforementioned stuff.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Another great showing of from Elegant at Weds Night Fights. Tourney is still going on but there's no way Luigi should be considered low-tier anymore.

 

[DelugeFGC]

What do people here think of ?

I dabble in him, not much, but a little. That dash attack is something, crosses up shields, extremely hard to punish and if it connects you can begin UAiring people so many times they'll begin to question if this game starts with a B. Granted his UAir doesn't do a ton of damage or have much knockback, but if you can follow DI and execute okay you can land SEVERAL of these due to the quick frame data the move has.. you can usually catch people who managed to escape with a single DAir too as they fall away.

His specials are all still pretty good, tornado is mad useful as both an option to pressure people in some situation while having a quick means to whisk yourself away, or as an outright escape / recovery tool. It doesn't do much shield damage, which is a bit strange to me, but it's still a good move imo. Side B is pretty good, it can potentially kill and due to how many times this move hits you can potentially lock a weakening shield up with it and get a shield poke (I've never gotten this move to break the shield before it poked through it) in. Up-B is Up-B. Down-B is kind of like bootleg shadow sneak, but I've found if you space this move (easier said than done, but possible) it CAN (not always though) be safe on block and such in some MU's.

He can also air camp with DAir on slower characters / characters without good jumps (ala Mac or Mewtwo) and overall keep himself pretty safe. I don't think he's too bad, his throws are also pretty decent but not amazing.. DThrow can combo into aerials and such while UThrow off of platforms is decent for killing.

He's a husk of his Brawl iteration, but I still don't think he's too bad as I said. He has a somewhat linear gameplan (dash attack is most of this character's neutral pressure tbh) and somewhat lacking kill power.. but he can rack up damage pretty quickly, has some good defensive options and overall would be a pretty good counterpick in some relevant MU's if you took the time to learn him.


Though do keep in mind I've only used Ult MK for about 3-4 hours, so my impressions are limited.

 

[Spinosaurus]

MK would be a lot better if he had ways to be more threatening between very early percent to high percents. At that point he has very little in ways of follow ups and only 1 frame active uair makes it hard for him to juggle especially when a lot of his buttons send opponents on top of him. Up b just being a lot worse in general so it's not like hitting the uair would lead to same reward it did in Smash 4. He's a shell of his former sharking self.

He's got the juice when it comes to edgeguarding, but that's kinda it. If his damage output was just better he'd honestly be really good. That's just my impression of him as someone who dabbled a lot in him in 4, but I wouldn't be surprised if we got a repeat of Smash 4 and there's a monster underneath there, I'm just not that optimistic about him. Oh also his grab range is complete garbage, that should probaaably be buffed, it's a bit much.

Bit of a pre-patch Sheik problem he's got if I had to describe it, honestly. I don't blame the devs for being extremely cautious with him, though.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Someone already corrected me about the airspeed but you're downplaying Palutena. I've tried to challenge Nair with YL and it didn't go well. Look at any Palutena match and you'll see her Nair-plane-ing a good part of the match. That move has good hitboxes and that's all around her.

Warp is very easy to platform cancel and goes a good distance; it's one of the hardest teleport recoveries to punish. It's a top tier disadvantage tool.

Obviously you can't use her projectiles up close but they control a lot of space in front of her and one kills. IDK what you're trying to argue; you're throwing out facts about her projectiles without disproving what I said. And a killing projectile is really good.

Palu's jab is f8 but her DA is f6 and armored. She definitely has swordsman frame data. Her airspeed is made up for by having the 5th best acceleration in the game. If you think Palu gets juggled hard don't try playing a super heavyweight.

This reminds me of when people were saying SSB4 Diddy's Dtilt's bad because it is unsafe on hit at low %s. Sure if you use a move wrong it gets punished. None of that changes how good Nair is at chaining across the stage or walling offstage. Palu's Nair is a great move; it's very oppressive.

Palu might have been bottom of top tier before the patch but she didn't get touched and other characters like Olimar and Pichu got hit hard. She's easily one of the best characters in the game. Keep in mind I never said Palu should be nerfed but she has a lot of great attributes.

Yes i saw that you got corrected when i readed abit further. And i dualmain Ike and secondary Bowser. Warp helps but it has startup and is punishable without a platform. It doesn't get you out of tight juggles like vs clouds upair.
When you meant warpcancel alone with your post then say so.

https://youtu.be/2Csr7vPXIZc?t=111 The hitboxes on nair are pretty good but it's not like it's unbeatable. Expect for Oldn't links fair you don't have decent hitboxes on this boy and fair is slow. You trade alot with disjoints and good hitboxes.
Like i don't want to argue that nair is bad(it's really great) but it's not the unbeatable tool that wins mu's(expect if you are DK) like some people try to suggest.

Regarding the projectiles: I agree with you it's just that you said that they are Neutraltools when they are risky in neutral in alot of situations.

DA is frame6 yes out of a dash but it doesn't work like this oos and instant DA works differently than in smash4. her best option under pressure is nair on frame8 (jump+startup) And you have to be near me for it to connect. She has a pretty hard time handling spaced pressure. It's best to just retreat most of the time.

Like i said i don't want to downplay Palu(she still is in the realm of lucina and inkling tierwise) but you Push up her tools alot like they don't have weaknesses at all.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

mod edit: User was warned for this post.

With the patch’s arrival, I’d like to present my list on who I think and I believe many of you will agree, are the best characters in the game

Everyone knows why he’s here. Ridiculously fast close range options alongside an obnoxious advantage state. His disadvantage state has its weaknesses, but has many work-arounds. A solid candidate for best in the game.

Now, some of you may think Pichu Lite is overrated at this spot. However, the grab range buff in addition to the fall of Pichu and Olimar, alongside Pikachu’s lightning loops and oppressive edgegaurding, he fits right at home. Pikachu’s nimble movement alongside his oppressive neutral, tiny hurtbox and amazing offstage and grab games come together to create another candidate for best in the game.

On Day 1, people said Inkling is strong. Inkling’s still just as strong. A great all around character with few bad matchups. With the fall of the two candidates for the top, and Inkling remaining just as potent, Inkling may just be number one, as was claimed at the game’s release.

Similar situation to Inkling, with the fall of characters at the top giving Wario time to shine. Previously, Tweek, one of the best Ultimate players in the world, shredded through tournament after tournament with Wario. His amazing juggling, solid neutral, and the threat of ending games early with Waft cement his place at the top.

Nintendo: Ok, so we gave him Sheik frame data. How big do you want to make Arsene’s hitboxes?
Sakurai: Yes.

Aside from these five candidates for the best, here are some rising characters in the meta that can be used as solid counterpicks to the above top tiers.

Now, no one takes Mii seriously. No one. But seriously, Mii Swordfighter is looking amazing right now. I’m speaking of the 1322 set with Gale Strike, Chakram, Skyward Slash Dash and Reversal Slash. Everyone knows what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm into U-Air as early as 80 on lightweights. It’s an option that the opponent has to be wary of when approaching, letting Mii Swordfighter condition and zone them. Chakram does exactly what Gale Strike does, Kill Confirm and Zone, but it’s slightly different in what confirms you can get off of it. It is more ‘spammable’ due to less end lag and has a higher skill curve due to the variety of angles it can be launched at. One of the best projectiles in the game. The Up-Special can go in any direction, has a decent amount of vertical and horizontal distance, can be used out of shield and crosses up, and has a high damage output. Finally, reversal slash is similar to Mario Cape. Will be interesting to see what skilled players can do with it. As for non-Specials, Mii Swordfighter has fairly good aerials, with Fair having a comical amount of range, and Uair having ludicrous knockback. His other moves get their job done, not quite as notable. Overall, I think Mii Swordfighter’s oppressive neutral and reliable kill confirms really backs some top tiers into a corner, such as Pikachu, Inkling and Snake.

Now, the rest of these characters I don’t have as much knowledge about, but with the power vacuum and the clear and effective strengths these characters possess, I believe they are viable counterpicks.

Now, you can draw on your opinions of these characters, but some of you may think Mewtwo is out of place. No, I don’t think he is. He has gone under the radar even after the buffs. His jab is quicker than ever before and does 25% minimum. Shadow Ball is obscenely strong, killing as early as the average strength smash attack. Up Throw and Back Throw Kill very early. His recovery is amazing, and can even be used on stage as a mix-Up. Mewtwo edgegaurding is monstrous due to his floatiness and wacky powerful aerials with huge range, as well as shadow being a threat. Mewtwo’s disadvantage isn’t great, but his light weight means he can’t be combo’d for long, and his blazing air speed means landing isn’t as difficult as people make it out to be. (If you truly want to struggle to land, use Rosalina) Try him out, and don’t take what Armada said as fact. Mewtwo is on par with Greninja as far as I’m concerned.

How is it possible for you talk so much and not really say anything. Not only that what you're saying about m2 is just straight up false. Not only that but you're severely overeating mii sword and that set up. When you don't take HS your OoS options become absolute pop. Usmash becomes his fastest options but it's not that good and the kill power or HS is amazing. For a slightly better recovery it's not worth it. I suggest you look at frame data and watch some videos of high level players playing the game. Afterwards take about 15 minutes researching a character before you post about them.

 

[DelugeFGC]

How is it possible for you talk so much and not really say anything. Not only that what you're saying about m2 is just straight up false. Not only that but you're severely overeating mii sword and that set up. When you don't take HS your OoS options become absolute pop. Usmash becomes his fastest options but it's not that good and the kill power or HS is amazing. For a slightly better recovery it's not worth it. I suggest you look at frame data and watch some videos of high level players playing the game. Afterwards take about 15 minutes researching a character before you post about them.

I've seen multiple higher level Mii Swordfighter users ditch Hero's Spin in tournament, this post just makes you look angry and hateful.. and you're as wrong as you accuse the other person of being. Why you would ALWAYS want a faster OoS option on a zoner / space control character over something that's a far more functional recovery is beyond me personally, but I can see arguments for both moves having merit. You can DI out of the last hit of Hero's Spin out of a kill confirm so many people use soft Chakram into HS or just go from Gale Strike into an Up Air instead. Ideally you shouldn't be getting into tons of 'pressured in shield' situations as Mii Swordfighter if you stick to your gameplan (though this can be MU dependent I'd say) so I could easily see the rationale behind instead opting for the move that's a better recovery (can potentially suck people into it / kill them at the ledge if they get stupid too) being valid. Regardless of right / wrong, there's no reason to just stab at someone like that.

Also what he said about Mewtwo isn't really wrong, it's not all-encompassing of the character.. but it's not really wrong either. Except the Greninja part, but Mewtwo does have some strengths. I still put him as a low High Tier - or high Mid Tier pick though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've seen multiple higher level Mii Swordfighter users ditch Hero's Spin in tournament, this post just makes you look angry and hateful.. and you're as wrong as you accuse the other person of being. Why you would ALWAYS want a faster OoS option on a zoner / space control character over something that's a far more functional recovery is beyond me personally, but I can see arguments for both moves having merit. You can DI out of the last hit of Hero's Spin out of a kill confirm so many people use soft Chakram into HS or just go from Gale Strike into an Up Air instead. Ideally you shouldn't be getting into tons of 'pressured in shield' situations as Mii Swordfighter if you stick to your gameplan (though this can be MU dependent I'd say) so I could easily see the rationale behind instead opting for the move that's a better recovery (can potentially suck people into it / kill them at the ledge if they get stupid too) being valid. Regardless of right / wrong, there's no reason to just stab at someone like that.

Also what he said about Mewtwo isn't really wrong, it's not all-encompassing of the character.. but it's not really wrong either. Except the Greninja part, but Mewtwo does have some strengths. I still put him as a low High Tier - or high Mid Tier pick though.

Do you really need to be explained why having good OoS is desirable even on a zoner? Like you're joking right? So joker has sheik frame data? Cool story man
M2 high tier based on what? Like you guys can't be serious. ****. I'm out. Don't bother responding.

 

[NotLiquid]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, I guess.

Another great showing of from Elegant at Weds Night Fights. Tourney is still going on but there's no way Luigi should be considered low-tier anymore.

Was he ever, actually entertained to be low-tier though? A character who gets that much reward from his combos and has some overall solid buttons feels in no way, shape or form a low-tier candidate.

 

[Gleam]

This may not be my place or even my argument, but the only thing Kiligar did was make some, fairly reasonable points on who was Top Tier and who could counterpick them. If you disagree with it, fine, you are certainly free to disagree with what he says. If there is truly mistakes in his line of thought, by all means, correct it.

But I'm tired of your holier than thou attitude AlMoStLeGeNdArY and I'm pretty sure everyone else is too.. Like it seems every time someone posts something you disagree with, your end goal is to attack them. Because right now, it's amazing you can talk so much and say so little. Perhaps you should take 15 minutes to research how to actually be a decent person.

 

[Nobie]

I still believe in Mewtwo, but much less so in Doubles.

The character just has too many inherent liabilities with two opponents plus team attack on. They're light, they're big, their throws take a lot of time to complete, and shadow ball is just as liable to hit a teammate.