Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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If its a 1600 tournament held at say a convention, there's probably only 50 actual professional players there: basically the normal local scene but now the numbers are heavily inflated.

Generally speaking, top 8/32 are safe cut offs for what's worth looking at. It takes something like EVO before top 64 is really worth looking at regardless of the attendance count. Need assured quality before going to 64.
Naturally, most major tournament series are a mix of skill levels but someone going to a large no name con tournament (since momocon for example is a strong con tournament) would weight less than a larger well known regional. Most people at the major tournament series aren't beginners though and while they may not necessarily be very skilled it takes someone with actual interest in high level smash to actually pay to attention one of those events.

As Lacrimosa Lacrimosa pointed out there are plenty of diamonds even in round one pools. The players might not be the best, but they are still good representation of their characters. Just looking at Smash and Splash and seeing some of the names in 65th and on you still see plenty of talented players and I wouldn't fully discredit their placements. (Though obviously not weigh them like a top 32).

Edit: Example 65th- Shoe on of the better ZSS in the country. Bestness- one of the better Nesses.
81th- Biddy a consistently Tri State (Jersey I believe?) Power ranked Toon Link(I believe he still uses him) and Tri state PR isn't a something to scoff at.
97th Komota the Kirby one of the best Kirby players
Even further down names like Ralphie and PowPow take up 129th.
 
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Very happy to see Elegant do well with Luigi again, he’s been working really hard with a character that isn’t super great in this game and it’s moments like this where you can really see that kind of hard work pay off. For all that he lost, an optimized Luigi is still one of the scariest characters to get combo’d by just because how easy it is for his moves to link into each other and then into some kind of strong combo finisher such as Bair, Cyclone or even Up B as we saw in the clip against Raito’s Duck Hunt. Very impressed with his placement this past tournament and I really hope that this is a permanent step forward for him. He’s been grinding his Luigi super hard and he’s such a fun player to watch when he’s feeling it. I just want to see his dedication to the character pay off for him
This is starting to look like a repeat story for Luigi. SSB4 Luigi after the 1.1.1 nerfs wasn't considered that great of a character at first (generally considered around mid tier, but no higher than that), but then Elegant slowly became better and better to the point where GTX 2017 and 2GG Championship happened, and Luigi became a solid high tier ever since.

If Elegant continues to advance further and further from this placement (or at least become more consistent with his placements, which he is fortunately starting to do), we could see opinions on Luigi continue to rise in a similar vein as before. The fact that this is happening only around 6 months after the game's release (as opposed to almost two years after 1.1.1 in SSB4) seems promising. Elegant's use of down throw's kill confirm potential, recovery mixups (hardly any of his stocks against Kameme were lost to edgeguards), and the use of Cyclone's invincibility is a sight to behold.
 

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Any of those stick out to you?
for me i like to look at bracket luck to see if some of the characters that float around high mid tier and low high tier got a series of good matchups to get their results. it often gets overlooked.
asmfor random upsets, if you didnt'/dont watch the actual matches its hard to tell what happened. often in ultimate, the match set could be 2-0 or 3-0 and the matches all come down to 1 stock apiece.
Actually IMO bracket luck is one of the less interesting of the list! It's something that easily sorts itself out given you get enough tournaments in the dataset.

Stuff like character popularity and top players not leaving their region (cmon Awestin/FOW) is more complicated because that is systemic error that can't be easily eliminated.
 
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I don't like how Das Koopa Das Koopa 's results merge some echoes and leave some echoes seperate. I mean, if you are going to have a better gauge of data, why not merge/seperate all echoes to see how player preference and character preference can influence results? Sakurai decided to keep records seperate for all echoes to gauge other aspects too.
 
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I don't like how Das Koopa Das Koopa 's results merge some echoes and leave some echoes seperate. I mean, if you are going to have a better gauge of data, why not merge/seperate all echoes to see how player preference and character preference can influence results? Sakurai decided to keep records seperate for all echoes to gauge other aspects too.
That is because some echoes are more similar to eachother than others. :ultlucina:,:ultchrom:, and :ultken: are somewhat semi-clones of their original characters that require a different playstyle and an array of different strengths and weaknesses. :ultdaisy:,:ultrichter:,:ultdarksamus:, and arguably :ultdarkpit: are far more similar to their original counterparts (the former two are virtually the same character to their counterparts) and it comes to personal preference in the end.
 

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I wouldn't call Pit and Dark Pit 'virtually the same'. The knockback (horizontal / vertical) on electroshock can actually make a lot of difference in certain MU's, as can normal Pit's ability to control his arrows better for gimps and such.. where-as other times the higher damage of Dark Pit's arrows make the difference for him.

Simon and Richter are basically the same character, the only difference between them isn't even about THEM, it's the properties of their holy water (Aura / Fire) which is literally it outside of their taunts. I don't know the nuances of Samus and Dark Samus beyond movement stuff.. but they're pretty similar overall as well. Pit and Dark Pit are pretty similar, but the differences between them can actually make a significant difference in some MU's.

Now that Daisy's turnips were patched, aren't her and Peach LITERALLY the same?


:ultmario::ultdoc: Are probably the most different, but they're no longer classified as Echo Fighters.

:ultpeach::ultdaisy: Are identical I believe.

:ultsimon::ultrichter: Simon has fire HW, Richter has aura HW.

:ultroy::ultchrom: Pretty different playstyles, albeit extremely similar combos, confirms and such. One has higher damage output and kill power with a higher focus on rushing the opponent down, another has a better walling, spacing and edge guarding game with a far more exploitable recovery.

:ultmarth::ultlucina: Very similar playstyles, pretty identical combos and confirms.. but one is far more consistent than the other at getting rewarded.

:ultryu::ultken: Totally different playstyles, some combos are the same but even these can vary. Of all the ACTUAL 'listed' echo fighters, I'd say they're the most unique from one another.

:ultness::ultlucas: Also not considered to be echoes, but they're still similar enough for me to put here. Overall have pretty different playstyles, but do share heavy similarities as well.

:ultpit::ultdarkpit: Very similar, but as I said above, the differences they DO have between them can make a significant difference in some MU's.

:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: Very similar, outside of movement and the properties on their attacks (fire vs. electric) being different, I'm unsure if there's anymore more. Very, very similar overall.


I'd rank Peach/Daisy, Simon/Richter and Samus/Dark Samus together in results.. but I would rank all of the other echo fighters differently as they have enough about them standing out to make real differences in games / MU's.
 
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I wouldn't call Pit and Dark Pit 'virtually the same'. The knockback (horizontal / vertical) on electroshock can actually make a lot of difference in certain MU's, as can normal Pit's ability to control his arrows better for gimps and such.. where-as other times the higher damage of Dark Pit's arrows make the difference for him.

Simon and Richter are basically the same character, the only difference between them isn't even about THEM, it's the properties of their holy water (Aura / Fire) which is literally it outside of their taunts. I don't know the nuances of Samus and Dark Samus beyond movement stuff.. but they're pretty similar overall as well. Pit and Dark Pit are pretty similar, but the differences between them can actually make a significant difference in some MU's.

Now that Daisy's turnips were patched, aren't her and Peach LITERALLY the same?
When I said "former two", I was referring to Daisy and Richter. "Latter two" would mean DSamus and DPit.

Yes, because Daisy's turnips are patched, they are indeed the same character outside of negligible hurtbox differences in certain animations.

Between :ultsamus::ultdarksamus:, DSamus' first hit of up smash hits lower, her roll is a few frames faster than Samus', and her Charge Shot and Missiles are launched lower. It comes at the cost of having less range on forward smash, a shorter roll distance, and less favorable hurtboxes in certain animations. DSamus is slightly taller, but has a slightly bigger shield to compensate. DSamus has electrical effects instead of Samus' flame effects. Movement between the two is the same.
Seems like a lot of differences, but in the grand scheme of things they function pretty much the same outside of these minor changes between the two.


Edit: :ultness::ultlucas: are virtually different characters at this point. Their playstyles and movesets are pretty different overall.
 
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DelugeTN

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When I said "former two", I was referring to Daisy and Richter. "Latter two" would mean DSamus and DPit.

Yes, because Daisy's turnips are patched, they are indeed the same character outside of negligible hurtbox differences in certain animations.

Between :ultsamus::ultdarksamus:, DSamus' first hit of up smash hits lower, her roll is a few frames faster than Samus', and her Charge Shot and Missiles are launched lower. It comes at the cost of having less range on forward smash, a shorter roll distance, and less favorable hurtboxes in certain animations. DSamus is slightly taller, but has a slightly bigger shield to compensate. DSamus has electrical effects instead of Samus' flame effects. Movement between the two is the same.
Seems like a lot of differences, but in the grand scheme of things they function pretty much the same outside of these minor changes between the two.
By movement, I literally just meant 'one floats' lol.

Between the differences you listed, imo Dark Samus seems like the more consistent pick. I use Dark Samus when I pick a Samus, so she's the one I have all the experience playing in Ult. USmash is a move I'm far more likely to use than FSmash, I rarely even used FSmash on DS. Having the faster roll seems better, but the longer distance on normal Samus' roll could be more useful given how the neutral of these characters functions. I could see both having niches where they're better tbh. The electric effect seems like it'd be more consistently useful because don't attacks with electric on them cause more hitstun / freeze.. or is that only from Smash 4?
 
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By movement, I literally just meant 'one floats' lol.

Between the differences you listed, imo Dark Samus seems like the more consistent pick. I use Dark Samus when I pick a Samus, so she's the one I have all the experience playing in Ult. USmash is a move I'm far more likely to use than FSmash, I rarely even used FSmash on DS. Having the faster roll seems better, but the longer distance on normal Samus' roll could be more useful given how the neutral of these characters functions. I could see both having niches where they're better tbh. The electric effect seems like it'd be more consistently useful because don't attacks with electric on them cause more hitstun / freeze.. or is that only from Smash 4?
That's a good question actually. I don't know if they have different hitstun at all for this specific character, since that would be pretty unfair...but if so I may finally have to abandon Samus's clean armor for the gross fleshy Dark Samus...or just not play either of them anymore out of frustration.
 
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By movement, I literally just meant 'one floats' lol.

Between the differences you listed, imo Dark Samus seems like the more consistent pick. I use Dark Samus when I pick a Samus, so she's the one I have all the experience playing in Ult. USmash is a move I'm far more likely to use than FSmash, I rarely even used FSmash on DS. Having the faster roll seems better, but the longer distance on normal Samus' roll could be more useful given how the neutral of these characters functions. I could see both having niches where they're better tbh. The electric effect seems like it'd be more consistently useful because don't attacks with electric on them cause more hitstun / freeze.. or is that only from Smash 4?
I don't think the freeze from DSamus' electric effects has much impact in her gameplay. I don't really see much footage where it made much difference at all. I think I have seen semi-uncharged Charge Shot in point blank at low percent combo into grab before, but that is pretty much it. The freeze from electric effects could make it slightly easier to properly DI her KO moves, but the electric effect is overall minor.


Dragon Quest protagonist and Banjo-Kazooie confirmed for Smash baby! Also, BotW sequel confirmed!!!
 
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Edit: :ultness::ultlucas: are virtually different characters at this point. Their playstyles and movesets are pretty different overall.
They've been really different since Lucas was first included. They've never really been that similar. They have similar up-bs, and variant down-bs, everything else about them is functionally completely different.
 
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Ganondorf is a really tricky character to balance. Although I think Fatality's suggested changes a nice step in the right direction in terms of balancing this character, I am not sure if the game devs are actually going to do any of the changes described in his video. The n-air change is probably the most realistic thing the devs are probably going to change about this character (unless the devs decides to remove rockcrocking for both Falcon and Ganon).
 
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When it comes buffing Ganondorf.

1.) Yeah, get rid of Rockcrocking. There is no damn reason you should be punished for legitimately landing your move on an opponent.

2.) It's been suggested that if you land Dark Dive, you can get your jumps back.

3.) As suggested in the video, yeah, reduce the amount of knockback Ganon goes through when he uses Dark Dive.

4.) Have Flame Choke, like Ridley and Mac' Side-B, act as a secondary recovery that can be used in tandem with Dark Dive. Not perfect but having 2 ways to recovery still works better than 1.

5.) Have Aerial Wizard Foot go at a larger angle, as it did with Custom Ganon in Smash4. This would help address spacing, projectile issues and even recovery. If we included #4, you could potentially give Ganon 3 different ways to recover if Wizard Foot worked as such. Though you might need to decrease the range/helpless state of the move after use.

6.) Much like Smash4 Custom Ganon, have Warlock Punch be a relatively fast blow, or do the same with U-Tilt. Gladly decrease the power but there's no reason for Ganon to have two very slow, Free-For-All moves.

7.) Decrease knockback on certain moves like Neutral A, D-Tilt and F-Tilt. Allow for at least short percentage combos out of them.

8.) Increase/Fix the range or position of Uair so that it consistently hits opponents from behind. I don't know why they changed the angular movement of this attack so much.

9.) I mean, yeah it's the easy way out but, improve mobility in some way.

10.) Give him his "Flight of Ganon" skill from Brawl. Yeah it didn't do s*** in that game, but I mean...why shouldn't Ganon be able to jump 20 feet in the air? He does it it in the games.
 
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After seeing the info on PT i'll say that if the answer to any two becomes simply "knock them into the air and use quick aerials" that becomes a serious problem. Ivysaurs vinewhip when I've used it, went THROUGH the ledge instead of grabbing it and it's really random when it does so. While I'm staring slackjawed at what just happened the opponent is either waiting for me to switch up for an easy spike or is simply waiting for me to drop. I main zard but even I agree getting 50+% beaten out of you before you can land isn't my idea of fun and trying to use flare blitz to snap to the ledge can easily be beaten by ledge shielding (which zard bounces off of). Squirtle has the least problems with either of these but his range is so much shorter compared to the other two that I find myself constantly whiffing and if the opponent gets one solid hit in squirtle goes flying! Considering squirtle has a hard time killing the opponent will have several opportunities to do so. Overall the characters are so drastically different that it's hard to adjust between all of them.
 

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Ivysaurs vinewhip when I've used it, went THROUGH the ledge instead of grabbing it and it's really random when it does so. While I'm staring slackjawed at what just happened the opponent is either waiting for me to switch up for an easy spike or is simply waiting for me to drop.
There's a method to it. You need to be a certain distance from the ledge in order for it to work. I'm pretty consistent when it comes to connecting it, unless I'm playing on Lylat (even then I think I just need more practice with that stage).

The issue is that it's really easy for an opponent to intercept it with a drop down nair or something.
 

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Come to think of it, it DOES seem a bit silly to have three Pokemon with three radically different gameplans and playstyles all shoved into one character, primarily when you consider 'we are not the majority' and all that when it comes to Smash. I feel a lot of lower-level players could get put off of PT or just would focus on one Pokemon simply because using the other two seems intimidating to them.

Just from like a casual design standpoint, does seem strange.
 

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I thought I saw a post here saying that Ken seems to have reached smash 4 level Ryu in terms of ability, but I could not find it.

But anyways.....

Hot Take - Ultimate Ken's ceiling far surpasses any potential ceiling Smash 4 Ryu could ever dream of having. This is in regards to literally every aspect of the game. Combos, Reset situations, landing/trap scenarios, death sequences, approach game, mix-ups, neutral.....anything.

2nd Hot Take - Ken was not actually buffed much. He got one real buff. The new close heavy. The rest of his kit, they simply adjusted it so he works as intended. They made him "real".
 
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Emblem Lord

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Ken's hitboxes seem enormous to me. That is all.
What? Pft.



Roundhouse.png



This is what you call balanced.

Also please ignore that blue part on Kens leg. It's uhhhh...uhhhhhhhh........

FAIR AND BALANCED
 
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What? Pft.



View attachment 227664


This is what you call balanced.

Also please ignore that blue part on Kens leg. It's uhhhh...uhhhhhhhh........

FAIR AND BALANCED
Lordy, coming from traditional fighters you forget how silly Smash hitboxes can be. Ken is like one half step below Brawl Snake tier silliness, sometimes I'm nowhere near him but get clipped by his leg for no reason.
 
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DelugeTN

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What? Pft.



View attachment 227664


This is what you call balanced.

Also please ignore that blue part on Kens leg. It's uhhhh...uhhhhhhhh........

FAIR AND BALANCED
He simply kicks with such skill and intensity that the air coming off of his leg extends the hitbox.

Nothing out of the ordinary here, I was told this is how physics work.
 

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Have hitboxes been nerfed significantly in the past? I remember they have shrunken Bayo's hitboxes in Sm4sh but they're still massive and I've stopped playing Sm4sh way before Bayo came out.
This one hitbox is one foot longer than Ken's actual foot. I mean, I get that hitbox aren't 100% attached to the body but that's so insane :<.

I'm really not a fan of such hitboxes but I guess nobody is. Maybe it's just necessary for his moves to actually work.



But that wouldn't explain Snake's uTilt hitbox...
 
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Oh, wow.

Seems a few of you do not understand the insanity that is Smash hitboxes.

Trust me that hitbox from Ken is actually the norm for many characters. What puts it over the edge would be the damage (14%) and the intangibility on his leg.

But even so this is actual trash compared to many hitboxes in older smash games. Especially 64 and Melee.
 
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Have hitboxes been nerfed significantly in the past? I remember they have shrunken Bayo's hitboxes in Sm4sh but they're still massive and I've stopped playing Sm4sh way before Bayo came out.
This one hitbox is one foot longer than Ken's actual foot. I mean, I get that hitbox aren't 100% attached to the body but that's so insane :<.

I'm really not a fan of such hitboxes but I guess nobody is. Maybe it's just necessary for his moves to actually work.



But that wouldn't explain Snake's uTilt hitbox...
Hitboxes are bigger than animations would indicate across the entire fighting genre.
 
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Melee Marth is one big hitbox meme to me tbh, namely due to the fact his clone got hitboxes that just spontaneously vanish for no reason. His U-Smash doesn't even have a hitbox on the tip (Marth). Melee Marth's hitboxes seem so straight forward, but man.. Roy somehow found a way. Luigi and Samus have some broken hitbox memery like that as well, though I believe with them it's a case of a final ending hitbox not coming out? Falcon's knee in Melee has a hitbox far larger than it has any realistic business having.

64 Kirby is the ultimate jankmaster of hitboxes imo, that UTilt is disgusting.
 
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They did appear to have made most hitboxes in this game smaller. For one, I can actually touch Bayonetta in this game without relying on whiff punishing. I've also had many instances of characters avoiding attacks because of hurtbox shifts, though some could be attributed to being unable to run through characters. Sometimes my dash grabs whiff on characters like Rob.
 
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Oh, wow.

Seems a few of you do not understand the insanity that is Smash hitboxes.

Trust me that hitbox from Ken is actually the norm for many characters. What puts it over the edge would be the damage (14%) and the intangibility on his leg.

But even so this is actual trash compared to many hitboxes in older smash games. Especially 64 and Melee.
I think what makes Ken's noticable is that they have done a fair bit of toning hitboxes down in Ultimate and 4 across a lot of the cast. ZSS' hitboxes compared to Brawl are so much smaller, lol.
 
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Luigi and Samus have some broken hitbox memery like that as well, though I believe with them it's a case of a final ending hitbox not coming out?
The devs in both 64 and Melee apparently forgot to program the final hitbox of Luigi's dash attack. It makes his dash attack worthless in both games (especially Melee since you can easily SDI the leading hits). Luigi's dash attack in general is a mediocre at best move throughout the entire Smash series, until Ultimate came out and actually made it good.
What? Pft.



View attachment 227664


This is what you call balanced.

Also please ignore that blue part on Kens leg. It's uhhhh...uhhhhhhhh........

FAIR AND BALANCED
Speaking of the Shotos having jank hitboxes, apparently their light jab 1's hitboxes matches the size of the arm, but the hitbox is actually placed noticeably below their arm (which is a good thing so that the jab doesn't whiff against smaller opponents).

The Shotos in general have some of the most obscene hitboxes in modern Smash Bros history, especially in a game where hitboxes are generally more accurate to the animation in comparison to previous entries in the series.
 
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SwagGuy99

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But even so this is actual trash compared to many hitboxes in older smash games. Especially 64 and Melee.
64's hitboxes were an actual joke. I don't know what the developers were thinking when they programmed them.

You can view some of them here (https://www.ssbwiki.com/Category:Hitboxes_(SSB)) for reference but Ultimate's hitboxes are completely normal when compared to the unbalanced monstrosity that is Smash 64 hitboxes (except Ness who is actually normal when compared to everyone else).
 
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Sorry but I don't think hitbox reduction (maybe on some extreme cases)will happen until the next game, because the amount of complaining from top tiers players will be enough to kill the game.
 
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64's hitboxes were an actual joke. I don't know what the developers were thinking when they programmed them.

You can view some of them here (https://www.ssbwiki.com/Category:Hitboxes_(SSB)) for reference but Ultimate's hitboxes are completely normal when compared to the unbalanced monstrosity that is Smash 64 hitboxes (except Ness who is actually normal when compared to everyone else).
I love how they gave Kirby inflated hitboxes on practically every single attack EXCEPT his up air. Like, that was apparently the one move that would be crossing the line if they gave it a disjoint.
 

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This is a non-conversation. Of all possible things to complain about, no one here is actually complaining about Ken hitboxes. (Big as they may be.)


Edit: So here's an actual topic: Hopefully it's just me, but it feels like doubles is dropping off. (If I had my druthers, we'd play almost exclusively teams, and singles would be this weirdo thing like asking someone to 1v1 you in League of Legends.)

Smash teams has always been underdeveloped and underoptimized, with inconsistent pairings and 3v3 never getting off the ground. The never-before-so-large, never-before-so-balanced roster has further expanded the problem space in Ultimate, so that we basically have no data beyond ancedotes and hunches.

To be blunt, I find almost all attempts to articulate some sort of team strategy framework in Smash to be total horse****. (Defining roles, types, rules for team composition, ect.) The state of the game has barely evolved past kids playing pick-up games in the parking lot, and taking their insights about positions and zone-based passing at face value is going to be a mistake.


To be extra clear, I don't have any special insight into this over anyone else. But I find myself wondering about it a lot, as I focus more and more on doubles.

Here is a challenge: Pick every character's favorite 2v2 teammate.
 
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That is because some echoes are more similar to eachother than others. :ultlucina:,:ultchrom:, and :ultken: are somewhat semi-clones of their original characters that require a different playstyle and an array of different strengths and weaknesses.
Do they really? Marth and Lucina are so close that Marth just got overshadowed completely. Plus, he can do all the same things Lucina can and optimally, he's a bit better since his tippers accentuate his moveset design. Both want to do the exact same thing in the exact same way zone people out and edgeguard them. Changing damage values a bit does not change that at all.

Chrom and Roy are pretty much the same thing, the biggest deviation being the recovery. Otherwise, his gameplan is pretty identical to Roy's gameplan (rushdown character with sword) and they share all the same properties aside from the sword dealing a bit less damage for Chrom.

Marth and ROY however don't play that alike, and it's not due to the sweet/sourspot gimmick. It's mainly the movement, plus altered hitboxes (in terms of range and framedata, not just sweetspots). Roy and Chrom have different hops to Marth and Lucina for example. I feel like many people just want to play Lucina like they do Roy, when really, she should play like Marth does and aim to play a patient game at a distance.

Even that picture of Ken you showed (aside from the invincible leg) has the same hitbox as Ryu's heavy jab. Plus he can't perform his command kicks in the air likely for balance reasons. Pros have been putting Ryu and Ken together in tier lists for a while now because they share the same fundamental strengths and weaknesses, even if Ken was presented as so different.
 
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This is a non-conversation. Of all possible things to complain about, no one here is actually complaining about Ken hitboxes. (Big as they may be.)
I'd complain about every stupid looking hitbox but I wouldn't be too vocal about this since it makes one obnoxious. It's good to know how big they are, though. Helps a lot playing against characters that have some janky hitboxes.


Wish they would make Zelda's fair/bair sweetbox so ridiculous or as big as Falcon's strog knee :3
 
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