Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[KirbySquad101]

This is the tournament Lacrimosa was referring to, I believe: https://challonge.com/ShullabraSP4T

Here's what the top placings on that tournament looked like:

Shulla-bra SP 4 results!
Bracket: https://t.co/yxyfOwjGDT pic.twitter.com/uaKqaXOD6E

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) June 8, 2019

Tea , Ke-Ya , and Kome were there, but out of the 3, Shuton only ended up fighting Ke-Ya before he got eliminated; apparently he also switched to during a few matches.

On the other hand, Tea absolutely tore through the bracket, only dropping one game to Ke-Ya along the way.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is the tournament Lacrimosa was referring to, I believe: https://challonge.com/ShullabraSP4T

Here's what the top placings on that tournament looked like:

Shulla-bra SP 4 results!
Bracket: https://t.co/yxyfOwjGDT pic.twitter.com/uaKqaXOD6E

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) June 8, 2019

Tea , Ke-Ya , and Kome were there, but Shuton didn't actually end up fighting either before he got eliminated; apparently he also switched to during a few matches.

On the other hand, Tea absolutely tore through the bracket, only dropping one game to Ke-Ya along the way.

According to the matches, he lost to Ke-ya 2-1 in winner's, then immediately got upsetted by a player named Munekin. He was probably not ready for the buffed Ryu (I can imagine Ryu's shield pressure doing a number on Olimar's new ineffective shield).

That said Ryu player would get 4th in the whole event, so Munekin seems like a really skilled player regardless. He lost to Beji 2-0 in winner's (Munekin would notably get revenge on Beji in top 8 with his own 2-0) and then lost to Kome 2-0 in loser's.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Can also confirm, Ryu is Olimar's worst nightmare. He can already completely destroy a fully functional shield with pretty much ANY light move into a strong FTilt or by forcing a shield with Shaku before rushing in to sFTilt it. This is a FULLY FUNCTIONAL shield.

Poor Olimar isn't safe anywhere against Ryu, up close OR far away, in shield or not.. that might just be one of his worst MU's atm.

 

[AxelVDP]

It’s difficult to take someone seriously who lauds a f4 jab in a game full of f2 and f3 jabs on a character who’s “sword” is a short knife that lands his practical range in between sword users and brawlers, often leaning closer to brawlers.

Dismissing FAF when discussing frame data is laughable, as is saying Joker’s frame data is better than sword characters when there are literally four Marthlings in top/high tier with better frame data than Joker. I don’t know what point you’re trying to prove by listing disadvantages of other top tiers, unless you’re saying Joker has no weaknesses which even the biggest Joker advocates would disagree with. At least “simplicity issues” gave me a chuckle.

I’m not dismissive of Arsene, Arsene is clearly incredible. I just recognise the fact that counterplay has yet to be developed. Players like Marss, Nairo and VoiD have started labbing Joker, and the Joker MU, hard, and the meta will continue to evolve. Sorry I’m not jumping on the “Joker is broken” bandwagon because the best player in the world was able to win tournaments with him. This is irrelevant to my argument though which is simply that Joker’s frame data is good, not spectacular. You said yourself he has worse frame data than other top tiers so you seem to agree.

This right here is the correct attitude to be having, the only thing you get by immediatly complaining and/or overreacting on a new and underdeveloped character (both in their own metagame and counterplay) is looking like an entitled child
EVEN IF the characters ends up to be a problem, such an attitude only brings forth a toxic enviroment (just like it happaned with Bayonetta) - nobody wins

also, I don't believe nerfing Arsene duration would be a smart move, the only thing it would accomplish is to make the game more campy and volatile (getting "arsene'd" when it only lasts like 15 seconds feels way worse for the receiver as he might feel ""robbed"" (I absolutely despise this term in fighting games))
a better fix (if it really is too good) would be reducing the its buildup by getting hit and increase its decay while getting hit in arsene mode, while maybe increasing the ammount of meter you get from rebel's guard (rewarding skill on both sides)
one could even adress such an issue by making arsene slightly weaker and base joker slightly stronger but to me this seems unlikely to happen, having this gap in power is what makes the mechanic fun in its intended design

another thing I'd like to add is: you don't really want "heavies" to be REAL good
having a top tier ganondorf (example) would probably borderline break the game, at least on all levels of play bar the absolute top percentile (and I'd argue it could easily ruin even this level, an easy character that requires very little interactions (and why use a more technical character if you have your easy and powerful top tier ganondorf) is the recipe for bored players/viewers) (and competitiveness is a function of the depth of the interactions possible)
the game is supposed to be fun for Everyone
a similar reasoning could be appliead for moves like Jigglypuff's rest, it's way too easy to make the move overtuned (and the character in general, just look at how happy the melee community is) (even though I believe that Jiggs is a perfectly good character back there and that melee players are too focused on wanting a flashy game but I digress)

imho they struck a VERY good balance in ultimate in this regard

 

[DelugeFGC]

I never said I wanted a top tier Ganon, I'd just like him to actually be able to do his job in a ton of relevant matchups and not get, as another poster said, shattered before he can fire his cannon. He can still have all the latent problems of being a superheavy, but a superheavy can still be a pretty decent character overall and not break the game. Bowser is an example of this, as is imo Incineroar. Ganon gets shut down before he can do absolutely anything if the player against him has even an ounce of patience and any refinement to their gameplay & execution at all in pretty much every important MU in this game and in a ton of other ones too, rockcrocking also assures a character with a recovery like his literally dies for free anytime he's launched more than a few feet offstage as it becomes a 'damned if you do' situation because recovering high with Ganon is an easy punish / edge guard, and going low exposes you either to a meteor or to being rockcrocked which is not hard to pull off btw.

I didn't say I wanted him to be 'REAL good', I was just saying he has a lot of problems that have become more apparent as the meta has aged and that I can't bother with him as a secondary anymore. That said, I'd still like him to be at LEAST decent, he doesn't have to be a top tier to be able to function properly in dozens of MU's.

 

[AxelVDP]

I never said I wanted a top tier Ganon, I'd just like him to actually be able to do his job in a ton of relevant matchups and not get, as another poster said, shattered before he can fire his cannon. He can still have all the latent problems of being a superheavy, but a superheavy can still be a pretty decent character overall and not break the game. Bowser is an example of this, as is imo Incineroar. Ganon gets shut down before he can do absolutely anything if the player against him has even an ounce of patience and any refinement to their gameplay & execution at all in pretty much every important MU in this game and in a ton of other ones too, rockcrocking also assures a character with a recovery like his literally dies for free anytime he's launched more than a few feet offstage.

I didn't say I wanted him to be 'REAL good', I was just saying he has a lot of problems that have become more apparent as the meta has aged and that I can't bother with him as a secondary anymore. That said, I'd still like him to be at LEAST decent, he doesn't have to be a top tier to be able to function properly in dozens of MU's.

sorry, I was not directly replying to you, my post was meant in a broader sense since it's an argument that usually pops up... I just used the recent ganon posts to bring it up
I do agree that Ganon could use some more tweaking here and there and with the overall gist of your post, but compared to its previous iteration this ganon is the most functional and balanced yet (and imo, he does not need much more)

 

[DelugeFGC]

sorry, I was not directly replying to you, my post was meant in a broader sense since it's an argument that usually pops up... I just used the recent ganon posts to bring it up
I do agree that Ganon could use some more tweaking here and there and with the overall gist of your post, but compared to its previous iteration this ganon is the most functional and balanced yet (and imo, he does not need much more)

Oh for sure, it's more-so that the bar was already on the floor outside of Melee, and even there he had some pretty heavy problems and dropped even from his original mid tier placings earlier on, is further down closer to low tier now I believe, lowish mid tier. The issue is due to a combination of factors, namely extremely bad mobility, poor frame data, subpar overall range / coverage, recovery problems like I mentioned above and having literally no means to deal with campier / more patient MU's and/or playstyles.. well it ruins him in mid-level to high-level play.

Earlier into the meta his gimmicks and tricks could get some mileage, but now, if you play the MU and use a character that has ANY decent traits to them at all.. well you can play circles around him with ease. Ganon can't get in, period, if the other player knows what they're doing.. and the other problems he has combined with that all just lead to a very exploitable character.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby has one real issue: he can't do much if you decide to jump above him.

His ground speed is more than fine. His normals are borderline oppressive on much of the cast.

He would be able to corner people just fine in his base form - except, they can jump over him and use disjoints while doing so.

In my experience, this has been the fatal flaw of this character. Because seriously - try to point out a match where Kirby is struggling and it isn't because his opponent is in airspace he can't easily reach.

There are two ways to resolve this IMO. One is to make grounded final cutter faster. This would allow him an anti-air to hit chars with even quick airspeed, without them having to contest him first.

Two is to improve his poor aerial frame data. This is one of MikeKirby's most wanted changes, since it also allows Kirby to get opponents off of him in disadvantage situations.

Many people say to improve his airspeed, but imo, the character is so floaty that any reasonable airspeed increase would break other moves, like fair. Fair strings may become true 0 to deaths, which means they'll have to rework that move and possibly some others.

So I'd rather just have the final cutter and/or aerial frame data improvements.

2c

 

[Rizen]

In a few months good luck throwing any sort of projectile at joker. you will be forced to approach him. Only players i've seen use rebel's guard effectively are an ex-bayo player (forgot his name) from the midwest and leo.

.

Counters like RG and revenge aren't great answers to projectiles because the counter user has to make the right prediction. There's a lot of counterplay. If Joker predicts right he gets meter but if he throws RG out at the wrong time it has 33f endlag and the opponent can charge a smash until the blue glow disappears. 33f is enough time to react and punish even in this game. RG stops projectile spam from across the stage but that's not the most effective way to use projectiles anyway because they're easy to shield. When Samus players land charged shots it's either from an advantage stage or fairly close at mid range because they can't be reacted to. Using projectiles at mid range is out of CQC reach and forces Joker to approach while being threatening if RG is guessed wrong.

 

[$.A.F.]

This right here is the correct attitude to be having, the only thing you get by immediatly complaining and/or overreacting on a new and underdeveloped character (both in their own metagame and counterplay) is looking like an entitled child
EVEN IF the characters ends up to be a problem, such an attitude only brings forth a toxic enviroment (just like it happaned with Bayonetta) - nobody wins

also, I don't believe nerfing Arsene duration would be a smart move, the only thing it would accomplish is to make the game more campy and volatile (getting "arsene'd" when it only lasts like 15 seconds feels way worse for the receiver as he might feel ""robbed"" (I absolutely despise this term in fighting games))
a better fix (if it really is too good) would be reducing the its buildup by getting hit and increase its decay while getting hit in arsene mode, while maybe increasing the ammount of meter you get from rebel's guard (rewarding skill on both sides)
one could even adress such an issue by making arsene slightly weaker and base joker slightly stronger but to me this seems unlikely to happen, having this gap in power is what makes the mechanic fun in its intended design

another thing I'd like to add is: you don't really want "heavies" to be REAL good
having a top tier ganondorf (example) would probably borderline break the game, at least on all levels of play bar the absolute top percentile (and I'd argue it could easily ruin even this level, an easy character that requires very little interactions (and why use a more technical character if you have your easy and powerful top tier ganondorf) is the recipe for bored players/viewers) (and competitiveness is a function of the depth of the interactions possible)
the game is supposed to be fun for Everyone
a similar reasoning could be appliead for moves like Jigglypuff's rest, it's way too easy to make the move overtuned (and the character in general, just look at how happy the melee community is) (even though I believe that Jiggs is a perfectly good character back there and that melee players are too focused on wanting a flashy game but I digress)

imho they struck a VERY good balance in ultimate in this regard

I’d love a good heavyweight. At low level and on quick play, people are going to whine about him no matter what. Viability won’t change that. Ness is a high tier or even better in this game and yet he didn’t really if at all see any increase of online player base in fact people have complained even less from what I’ve seen even though they buffed his cheesy stuff like pk Fire and yo yo edge guarding. At top level, pichu, Peach, Joker, Olimar (still applies even if not as good), along with Palutena and Fox to an extent are top tiers that require only a few interactions to kill you. One move and you go to 70-80 off a string. Ganondorf for all the power he has isn’t getting more than 30 off of any move in his kit unless you get read like a book multiple times. As you can see, characters who put out even more damage than Ganondorf are nowhere close to killing the game in any fashion. Prime Olimar dominated top 8s for literally two weeks. And I’d argue it would be super fun to watch a character as volatile and explosive as Ganondorf because let’s be honest, you have to read your opponent to actually kill them super early. Also him being easy would actually be an argument for him in a way. Lucina, Yoshi, Wolf, Chrom, Palutena and every other “brain dead” top tier fell off to at least some extent. Wolf only stayed in tact because he got buffed in the last patch and some of top tier that he struggled with got nerfed. Before that not one Wolf made top 32 at momocon. IMO a volatile heavyweight based off of the character known as the most hype in smash becoming top tier wouldn’t be a bad thing for viewership. Easy and good damage apply to at least half of top tier in both regards. Wolf Snake and the fire emblem characters have strong online prescence, tournament presence and top level presence and in no way shape or form has the game been broken. I heavily disagree with the sentiment that heavies should not be good.

 

[Tri Knight]

I’d love a good heavyweight. At low level and on quick play, people are going to whine about him no matter what. Viability won’t change that. Ness is a high tier or even better in this game and yet he didn’t really if at all see any increase of online player base in fact people have complained even less from what I’ve seen even though they buffed his cheesy stuff like pk Fire and yo yo edge guarding. At top level, pichu, Peach, Joker, Olimar (still applies even if not as good), along with Palutena and Fox to an extent are top tiers that require only a few interactions to kill you. One move and you go to 70-80 off a string. Ganondorf for all the power he has isn’t getting more than 30 off of any move in his kit unless you get read like a book multiple times. As you can see, characters who put out even more damage than Ganondorf are nowhere close to killing the game in any fashion. Prime Olimar dominated top 8s for literally two weeks. And I’d argue it would be super fun to watch a character as volatile and explosive as Ganondorf because let’s be honest, you have to read your opponent to actually kill them super early. Also him being easy would actually be an argument for him in a way. Lucina, Yoshi, Wolf, Chrom, Palutena and every other “brain dead” top tier fell off to at least some extent. Wolf only stayed in tact because he got buffed in the last patch and some of top tier that he struggled with got nerfed. Before that not one Wolf made top 32 at momocon. IMO a volatile heavyweight based off of the character known as the most hype in smash becoming top tier wouldn’t be a bad thing for viewership. Easy and good damage apply to at least half of top tier in both regards. Wolf Snake and the fire emblem characters have strong online prescence, tournament presence and top level presence and in no way shape or form has the game been broken. I heavily disagree with the sentiment that heavies should not be good.

And instead small fast characters are pretty oppressive online. I would love to see Ganon or D3 become something more than noob stompers. I'd love to see top level play from heavies and super heavies and actually be viable in that space. But its because of those sentiments that we'll likely never see that in this or many other fighting games. Sucks because I usually prefer the heavyweights...

 

[Lacrimosa]

Bowser is probably the only heavyweight that was never really a "noob-stomper". At least I haven't people see him calling that. But Bowser looks like the most complete heavyweight that also have a decent recovery. Not great, but acceptable and much better than DK's because you get vertical distance. Bowser's places also the best in tournaments with different people, but most notable with LeoN. So we have one super heavy that does well in this game.

 

[PK Gaming]

Bowser is probably the only heavyweight that was never really a "noob-stomper". At least I haven't people see him calling that. But Bowser looks like the most complete heavyweight that also have a decent recovery. Not great, but acceptable and much better than DK's because you get vertical distance. Bowser's places also the best in tournaments with different people, but most notable with LeoN. So we have one super heavy that does well in this game.

Bowser's kit is pretty ignorant and can absolutely stomp on noobs as well. He just isn't all that popular in casual play for some reason.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bowser is a ****ing goon.

Tools are pure thuggery. Only reason he is not amazing is due to unsafe pokes and being combo food.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Going back to the memories of watching sets from DJ Nintendo's Bowser taking sets with Up-B out of shield combos on unsafe approaches in Melee.. I'd say Bowser has always been kind of a noob stomper. Especially with the tools he has now. That Side-B is a friendship destroyer at a casual level I'd imagine.

Though Bowser isn't a super popular character himself, so I'd say that's why you don't see him much.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Look the smash community will complain about any toptier because at this point it became a tradition to complain about characters and thanks to social media(twitter to be specific) and top player worship any comment negative about a character gets spreaded like the plague it only took joker 2 big tournaments wins to get mainstream hate, the problem is more on the community that the game, but unless something changes on the community attitude this problem will persist.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I don't see many people complain about: period, and I haven't seen many people complain about as of late either. It seems to have been relegated to pre-3.1.0 and now more-so . I haven't seen a whole lot of hate / complaining toward in general, either.

I remember earlier in the meta people were complaining about pre-patch and I also remember how everyone seemed so positive was the best character in the game.. my how times change. Hell I even remember a lot of people saying how was looking nice and had potential.. and I think we all remember the early impressions of the masses about as well.


I wish people would let the meta actually come into proper existence before they attack it and beg for nerfs. The ONLY character I can think of who has a few aspects that are more-so looking like they SHOULD be toned down is Snake.. but even then, he's not so horrible to the meta that he single-handedly defines it or anything.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Bowser is indeed looking like the best Superheavy right now for sure. With his solid oos option in Up-B and great burst options, seriously Bowser Bomb is just kinda nuts right now.

DK almost seemed like he would be better, and the best superheavy on paper. But his disadvantage is atrocious even by superheavy standards. I have seen matches where DK basically went 0-death simply due to just not being able to do anything as soon as he was put in that situation

Game 2 of this set vs JW and DKWill shows just how boned DK can be vs characters that can continuously press advatnage

 

[DelugeFGC]

Bowser is indeed looking like the best Superheavy right now for sure. With his solid oos option in Up-B and great burst options, seriously Bowser Bomb is just kinda nuts right now.

DK almost seemed like he would be better, and the best superheavy on paper. But his disadvantage is atrocious even by superhavey standards. I have seen matches where DK basically went 0-death simply due to just not being able to do anything as soon as he was put in that situation

His recovery is also pretty tragic. I know it has never been good, but my god DK offstage is just a meme.

 

[Jgod]

Kirby has one real issue: he can't do much if you decide to jump above him.

His ground speed is more than fine. His normals are borderline oppressive on much of the cast.

He would be able to corner people just fine in his base form - except, they can jump over him and use disjoints while doing so.

In my experience, this has been the fatal flaw of this character. Because seriously - try to point out a match where Kirby is struggling and it isn't because his opponent is in airspace he can't easily reach.

There are two ways to resolve this IMO. One is to make grounded final cutter faster. This would allow him an anti-air to hit chars with even quick airspeed, without them having to contest him first.

Two is to improve his poor aerial frame data. This is one of MikeKirby's most wanted changes, since it also allows Kirby to get opponents off of him in disadvantage situations.

Many people say to improve his airspeed, but imo, the character is so floaty that any reasonable airspeed increase would break other moves, like fair. Fair strings may become true 0 to deaths, which means they'll have to rework that move and possibly some others.

So I'd rather just have the final cutter and/or aerial frame data improvements.

2c

I super dislike when people bring up Kirbys air speed as a buff like they want a comboing Jigglypuff with a ground game.
I wish he had Upper Cutter in Ultimate instead of Final Cutter, would of helped a metric ton but yes Final Cutter being better (Kirby specials in general) would help a lot. He already has good aerials.

 

[Gleam]

Even before the patches, Bowser was an up and coming monster and a good contender for the Upper Mid Tier range. He was arguably not only the best heavy back then but the best version of Bowser himself. I couldn't reasonably call him High Tier back then, but he was pushing the bar.

Then Nintendo said.

We got to give this S.O.B more power.
We got to make it easier for him to hit people.
We got to buff that Up-Special.

This glutton is hogging all the buffs and meanwhile the rest of the Heavies like are just like...

"You want to pass some of that over?"

But Bower is just gobbling all those buffs down like sweet and sour glazed Toads, fattening himself up. Remember when were all relatively in the same ballpark with similar results? Well that was before Bowser ate them and ejected their spirits from his rear.

But seriously, Bowser is kind of awesome right now.

 

[SwagGuy99]

His recovery is also pretty tragic. I know it has never been good, but my god DK offstage is just a meme.

At least Bowser's recovery protects him from above and still travels far horizontally and father vertically than DK's. Just another reason as to why Bowser is better.

 

[Shaya]

.. Snake's disadvantage is entirely real....
Please...
A character can have several options at their disposal in disadvantage, but lacking enough personal experience to handle them doesn't negate it.

And generally when people talk about disadvantage, this includes their recovery... so not much point bringing that up.

Kirby's otg (off the ground) short & full hop rising up faster and/or going slightly higher, kinda like the common "what buff little mac needs", sounds like a feasible solution to the conundrum presented by RK without making a "jigglypuff with a ground game".

 

[Courageous Baka]

To use this post as a springboard, I currently consider Pit to be an absolute failure of a "jack of all trades" type character. The fact that people write him off with "having no real strengths or weaknesses" despite having very discernible strength and weaknesses speaks to that, imo.

I have no intention of debating with you over anything. I just would like to know what you say Pit's discernible weaknesses are?

 

[Rizen]

I don't see many people complain about: period,.

I'll complain about . She has great airspeed, a huge Nair and Uair and an invulnerable Bair for an oppressive advantage state. In disadvantage Warp is slippery with little lag for a get out of jail free move. Her neutral's not bad either with projectiles to control space that can kill. She's an obvious top tier and everyone knows it.

 

[Idon]

I'll complain about . She has great airspeed, a huge Nair and Uair and an invulnerable Bair for an oppressive advantage state. In disadvantage Warp is slippery with little lag for a get out of jail free move. Her neutral's not bad either with projectiles to control space that can kill. She's an obvious top tier and everyone knows it.

That bair is unbelievable in how much utility it has. In fact, Palutena's entire movepool is some of the most versatile stuff in the entire game and easily puts her head and shoulders above most of the cast, but that bair in particular is a pain in my ass, lmao.

 

[Diddy Kong]

His recovery is also pretty tragic. I know it has never been good, but my god DK offstage is just a meme.

DK has a crazy wall of pain though. And many ways to finish off opponents. With how easily he can secure a stock, I still think he’s the very best super heavy. Literally everything kills but his tilts, jab and N Air. And of course throws like U Throw and D Throw, and I guess Hand Slap. Everything else is a valid KO move or valid set up for one. He also has massive range and generally more speed than the others. I’m not yet sold on Bowser being better, but they are pretty close.

 

[Y2Kay]

You will not see a display of how devastating Greninja’s frame trapping is better than this:

https://clips.twitch.tv/NastyVibrantWeaselOSsloth

 

[Vyrnx]

Calling the most recent character to win a major(or at least do extremely well) "possibly the best character in the whole game" and demanding for nerfs seems to be a really common trend here for some reason.

I'm not too big a fan of this type of "I see something I disagree with, so I'm going to try to discredit the entire thread/the "smash community" (i.e. "everyone else")" post--for instance, in this case, the supposedly widespread trend is really not at all widespread as far as I can tell--so I'm assuming it should be read as "joker isn't that good/top tier/whatever."

A totally okay position to have (as much as I may disagree), I just don't see the need to weirdly call out 'everyone else' over something that only a few may or may not be saying--it doesn't really add much.

There's a great deal of value in this thread, but there is (on another note) an odd way in which sometimes valuable things are easily labeled negatively--for example, "(pure) theorycraft", or especially "narrative pushing." I'd like to know what exactly constitutes "narrative pushing"--like, I think it obviously includes multiple posts by a user (or users) supporting a particular position. But past that? Definitely the most important contributing factor is whether or not the labeler agrees with the position--if it's disagreement, it's more likely going to be labeled "narrative pushing". And also the aggressiveness of a post probably plays some role in whether or not something gets called "narrative pushing."

But with aggressiveness, there are a few possibilities to keep in mind: The user could be young, like many (or most) users here. The user may not speak English as their first language, or maybe they just didn't preface (every single) somewhat argumentative thing with "I think" or "in my opinion"--I wouldn't confuse this with aggression. Or maybe the user was in fact, intentionally or not, overly aggressive.

So then what's wrong with so-called narrative pushing? It's just having a particular position that you argue for. Or basically, my point is that the value of a post can't be discredited just by calling it narrative pushing since its negative connotation, in the context of this thread, doesn't make much sense--arguments with so-called narrative pushers are more valuable than talking to a brick wall or having unanimous agreement. I don't know how many people would actually still come here and read this thread if there weren't well reasoned posts that they disagree with.

 

[DelugeFGC]

DK has a crazy wall of pain though. And many ways to finish off opponents. With how easily he can secure a stock, I still think he’s the very best super heavy. Literally everything kills but his tilts, jab and N Air. And of course throws like U Throw and D Throw, and I guess Hand Slap. Everything else is a valid KO move or valid set up for one. He also has massive range and generally more speed than the others. I’m not yet sold on Bowser being better, but they are pretty close.

I think DK is a little slept don't get me wrong, but I don't see any way he could be long-term better than Bowser without some buffs. His disadvantage state is pretty atrocious and when knocked offstage it's curtains.. not to mention getting just a HAIR too overzealous with an edge guard will kill you with DK. I don't know if it's because I play characters with better recoveries, but every time I end up going DK I end up spinning sadly up just under the ledge and awkwardly falling to my death at least once per match.

DK has a lot good, but not everything. For example, due to his BAir being his best OoS option, his OoS game is entirely dependent on which way he's facing in a lot of situations.. Bower's isn't. Bowser also lives longer (slightly), has a better disadvantage state, is far more consistent off the ledge, has an advantage state that's basically just as good as DK in a lot of MU's and overall I'd say a better neutral. Bowser is the clear pick over the two for 'best'.

 

[Courageous Baka]

Villager has some great matchups against certain characters because the tree and lloid allow him to camp and shut down projectiles, mixed with pocket taking away really important tools.
Isabelle losing both just make her a minor pest, she can't camp reliably and gets shut down by anyone who knows what they're doing.

Villager feels designed in a very specific way, and they got rid of that design with Isabelle while giving her nothing really reliable in return.

Now I didn't pay that much attention to Smash 4's tournaments and stuck to looking at tier lists and combos. But I saw how high Villager was on the first few tier lists before DLC showed up. And he still found himself in high tier by the end of the game's lifespan. Why he is so ignored in Ultimate now?

 

[DelugeFGC]

Now I didn't pay that much attention to Smash 4's tournaments and stuck to looking at tier lists and combos. But I saw how high Villager was on the first few tier lists before DLC showed up. And he still found himself in high tier by the end of the game's lifespan. Why he is so ignored in Ultimate now?

The new game engine was not kind to him. The increased game speed in particular.

He's not horrible / low tier or anything imo, but he's.. painfully mediocre within the current meta of Ultimate.

 

[Lacrimosa]

The best Villager from Smash 4 (Ranai) also "can't"really push the meta for him forward. I rarely see any other Villagers at the level he had. The same would be the case for Pac-Man if it weren't for Tea and to some degree Shinji. So this char's meta-standing is pretty much dependent of one person that currently doesn't play the game competitively. Same could be said for any character but obscure mid-tierish characters are hit hard when their best player doesn't compete anymore.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

I'll complain about . She has great airspeed, a huge Nair and Uair and an invulnerable Bair for an oppressive advantage state. In disadvantage Warp is slippery with little lag for a get out of jail free move. Her neutral's not bad either with projectiles to control space that can kill. She's an obvious top tier and everyone knows it.

A small correction: her airspeed is very much on the slow side, sitting at 54/55th place (not counting joker since he isn't listed). The real reason you find landing against her, or whatever you mean by advantage state, difficult is because her air acceleration is near the top, at 5th place. Once she's in position, she can easily adjust herself to your drift.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Palutena doe

That bair is unbelievable in how much utility it has. In fact, Palutena's entire movepool is some of the most versatile stuff in the entire game and easily puts her head and shoulders above most of the cast, but that bair in particular is a pain in my ***, lmao.

i


Yea Palu ended up a pretty well-rounded character overall. With likely having the best overall set of airiels for utility and air-control second only to Peach/Daisy. On the ground though Palu really only has her also-invulerable, yet punishable on sheild dash attack as a real good burst-ground option
. D-tilt is good for 2-framing at the ledge but thats really it for her ground utility. Well it helps really good grab game. Good reach, has d-throw combos up to like 70-80% and a pretty strong kill-throw as well.
However her projectiles are mostly only good for pressing advantage in most MU's. They are only really effective spacing tools vs super-heavies or for carless projectiles spammers

Small, quick characters that can get in her face easily like Fox, Inkling and the electric rats will cause her issues.

However my final opinion on Palu is the same as Wario or Greninja. In that if they were not top-tier before the 3.1.0 patch, they more than likey are now

 

[KirbySquad101]

You will not see a display of how devastating Greninja’s frame trapping is better than this:

https://clips.twitch.tv/NastyVibrantWeaselOSsloth

Dash attack and up air are looking to be major culprits of his insane tech chasing. Up air is a major element of it as it's the move that always drags the opponents to the ground to set-up for said tech chase scenarios. But yikes, that dash attack, though. It's not even that dash attack has such good coverage on landing opponents that thanks to its horizontal disjoint compounded Greninja's insane run speed. The angle the move throws the opponent at is prefect for more up tilt-drag down shenanigans that in a way, sort of creates a pseudo-loop that - depending on how the opponent reacts - can be very hard for them to escape. On their own, neither move looks that spectacular, but given how well they compliment each other is looking to be the main reason Greninja's tech chasing capabilities look so scary, especially to players who don't know how to handle it optimally.

It did look like Prodigy had no idea how to handle it given how much he was sidestepping/air-dodging during the whole scenario. Then again, I'm not sure if there was much he could've done under those scenarios, unless I'm mistaken.

Also, speaking of Crown 2019, can we talk about how Prodigy 3-1'd Cosmos TWICE in the same tournament? Between this, resetting the bracket against Stroder, and taking out Myran at Thunder Smash, Prodigy is giving quite a good name.

 

[PK Gaming]

You will not see a display of how devastating Greninja’s frame trapping is better than this:

https://clips.twitch.tv/NastyVibrantWeaselOSsloth

We aren't even close to reaching the skill ceiling for characters like Greninja, and that's extremely exciting for me

In Smash 4, we ran into limits pretty early on, but that doesn't seem to be the case here

 

[The_Bookworm]

Crown, a decently sized regional tournament, has ended not too long ago.

1st: Stroder (I'm not even kidding lol)
2nd: Prodigy
3rd: Cosmos
4th: BestNess
5th: Pandarian
5th: Shoe
7th: AZ
7th: Dragoomba
9th: Z
9th: Widget
9th: Lui$
9th: Kofu

 

[Lacrimosa]

BestNess falling short again.
Should make people realize that Fow and Awestin are still better.
But that aside: When did Stroder use Little Mac? Seems like a really odd choice to me.
The 3rd place of Cosmos is also rather surprising...

 

[$.A.F.]

BestNess falling short again.
Should make people realize that Fow and Awestin are still better.
But that aside: When did Stroder use Little Mac? Seems like a really odd choice to me.
The 3rd place of Cosmos is also rather surprising...

He used Mac vs Pandarian