Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nah]

Can you DI/SDI out of arcfire? I have a much harder time escaping follow ups from it then from PK fire. It feels like everytime I get hit by the move, I end up eating a beefy levin sword to the face.

It's possible, but far more difficult to do so than in Smash 4 afaik

 

[Avokha]

Can you DI/SDI out of arcfire? I have a much harder time escaping follow ups from it then from PK fire. It feels like everytime I get hit by the move, I end up eating a beefy levin sword to the face.

You can, though it becomes much more difficult to do so the higher up your characters body the initial fireball hits. If you're hit cleanly on the side, it's a simple matter to sdi and airdodge out of that side. But good luck getting out if you're struck from the shoulder or head.

 

[PK Gaming]

Thread seems pretty dead today

Suppose I should attempt to revive you guys with a new topic lol. Sooooooo...

With all these tier lists coming out and it being a hot topic among his mains recently, where do you guys think is right now in the meta?

On the plus side, he really benefits quite a bit from the universal damage buff making him do absurd damage off simple neutral interactions. Arcfire became usable, and his recovery (while horribly linear and vulnerable) had a rather distance buff.

That said, they didn't fix any of his core flaws going into Smash Ultimate, weakened Arcthunder's utility and killed his throw combos. He also didn't get any speed buffs, so his movement is linear and predictable. All of that, on top of making him wait for Levin Sword (which is in fact quite noticeable since it means you can't start the game off throwing out Levin Sword aerials for pressure) and the fact that Arcfire was recently nerfed (and the nerfs are absolutely noticeable) all contribute to Robin an aggressively mediocre character.

He has some good matchups, but generally fighting with him is an uphill battle in most matchups.

 

[KirbySquad101]

While forcing to start without the Levin Sword is irritating, I can sort of understand the thought process behind it. Robin's Levin Sword grants him strong, fast, and disjointed aerials, and compounded with their reduced landing lags... To give you an idea, Levin BAir is a frame 9, disjointed, +18% damage with crazy knockback, and on top of all of this, the move has a whopping 11 frames of cool down. Stuff like that and Robin's other aerials allow him to tap into his inner and just start throwing out a wall of aerials that can make it both hard and scary for players ton contest him.

I honestly don't really know much else about the character, but based on what I've seen, he seems to be closer to a character like than where's he sort of a pseudo-swordsman who controls the space of the battle with his disjoints and stuff like Thunder.

I could be wrong, given that I know next to nothing about the guy, but those are my thoughts on him. In terms of where he stands compared to everyone else, though, I have no clue.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So have any of the buffed characters from 3.1 got some new results already? I’m trying to se if the buffs have helped these characters out. I’m especially curious about Diddy. Wish all these characters got the same attention like Sheik did from VoiD when she was just buffed honestly.

 

[Nah]

I've never been an optimist about Robin really. The character has some really nice stuff, and there were some positives in the transition to Ultimate, but there were also some negative things about the transition, and Robin's issues are ones that are too significant to just brush off like 's weight (weight has never really been a strength or weakness though) or 's recovery, especially since Robin's strengths don't greatly make up for these flaws like with those two. Having a strong advantage state is nice and all, but it means less when you can't reliably/consistently enter that state and when your disadvantage is so poor that most characters can dish back what you dealt to them (or sometimes even more).

People used to have a lot of optimism about too. Dath, Raziek, Skorpio, I remember they all used to think very highly of them. But by the end of Smash 4's life, they all had lost faith in Robin. These weren’t nobodies who didn't know **** about the character either, they were some of the character's best long-term mains. Like PK Gaming said, their flaws were not addressed at all in this game, they are fundamentally still the same, and while most matchups are doable (though yellow rats are ****ing horrendous), many of them being even slightly uphill does not usually equate to success. And because of that, their fate is very likely to be the same as in the previous game: somewhere in the lower half of mid-tier, not truly (solo) viable*. You can certainly do worse than Robin, but that doesn't mean Robin is good. I would not be surprised if there is first an uptick for the character that will make people go "see Nah, you were wrong!", but also like in Smash 4, they'll come crashing down after hitting that peak.

Patches are not likely to do anything either, as most of the patch work so far has been more Corrin-like stuff: universal fixes or stuff that doesn't really mean much. It's clear the developers aren't into the more drastic changes we got in Smash 4. The arguable few that may have gotten remotely significant increases in viability are also ones that weren't hard to make good/better to begin with.

If the optimists really want to insist that is a character to have faith** in, then they need to go out and prove that long-term.

* I imagine me using the phrase "not truly viable" is going to generate responses arguing about viability, so to address that: As I've seen it, most people fall into one of two schools of thought on the matter of character viability, which to condense into as few words as possible, is dependent upon if you value peaks or consistency more. If you value the former more, then yes, Robin is a viable character.....so is most of the roster really. If you subscribe to the latter, like I do, then Robin is not a viable character.

**I also imagine that people might be wondering why I main a character I have long not thought highly of. So for those who might be curious about that: I am garbage. Garbage is garbage no matter what it plays. So I might as well play a character I like, and for those it's not immediately obvious to, I like Fire Emblem.

While forcing to start without the Levin Sword is irritating, I can sort of understand the thought process behind it. Robin's Levin Sword grants him strong, fast, and disjointed aerials, and compounded with their reduced landing lags... To give you an idea, Levin BAir is a frame 9, disjointed, +18% damage with crazy knockback, and on top of all of this, the move has a whopping 11 frames of cool down.

"Fast" isn't really the word I'd use to describe Levin aerials. Not when your fastest ones are frame 9 and the rest are f10+ in a game where many characters have faster ones, including many swordies who have comparable reach and end/landing lag too. The fact that you don't start with Levin Sword doesn't bother me personally though, it's only ~10 seconds and there's other times in the match when it's not available anyway. Though obviously starting with it would be better.

 

[Gleam]

So have any of the buffed characters from 3.1 got some new results already? I’m trying to se if the buffs have helped these characters out. I’m especially curious about Diddy. Wish all these characters got the same attention like Sheik did from VoiD when she was just buffed honestly.

I can't speak on whether buffs or nerfs were responsible but some of the notable results that have happened across a couple of weeks are...

have all been showing notable improvements. Even before the buffs, Falcon was doing decently well, far cry from the "Weak Character" I've seen people place him.

, especially for his lesser popularity, has done decently well.

an already decent character, had his results skyrocket during his respective buffs.

Both Ridley and DK have fallen drastically and I expect them to unfortunately keep falling unless they get their buffs. Ridley himself literally went from Top 20s in the past to nearly 40th place on Orion and DK has arguably gotten it worse. I've made the point that, even if they haven't technically gotten worst, they've remained stagnant in the ever evolving meta.

Despite all the buffs he got, nothing has changed about Mac. He's actually got the worst results on Orion currently. This personally doesn't surprise me because even though they've buffed him up physically, they didn't do anything to actually help what hurts him the most. He still has the same, exploitable weaknesses and making him hit harder isn't going to really fix that fundamental issue and make him viable IMO.

has continued to rise though he might be slowing down a bit.

has also been rising in results, finally expressing himself as a good character in the Top 20s and not the Upper 30s like he was in the past.

And that's just what I've noticed.

 

[Terotrous]

Aww, I wanted to come in here and say bad things about ESAM's tierlist because I just finished watching it but everyone did it several days ago. In any case, I feel it's basically "who got buffed and nerfed in 3.0 or 3.1.0"?. If you got a nerf of any kind, regardless of whether it mattered much or not, you drop 10-15 spots. If you got any kind of buff, you're now high tier (lol Ken). I feel like the very tops and bottoms make sense but a lot of the middle seems very arbitrary and speculative.

With all these tier lists coming out and it being a hot topic among his mains recently, where do you guys think is right now in the meta?

Honestly my thoughts on Robin are kind of similar to the Ice Climbers. He has moments where he feels great but he's held back by a dumb mechanic, in his case the fact that he runs out of his specials and Levin sword. You can be dominating a match one minute and then all of a sudden you're on the defensive because you no longer have access to one of your key neutral tools, you now have no kill power, or you can no longer recover, which is a ridiculous drawback that no other character has to deal with. When compared to characters who have tools that are as good or better than Robin's tools (the Belmonts are the most direct example) except they have them all the time, it doesn't really seem like he can rise that high.

I feel like it's just not a good character design in general. For it to work, his specials would have to be completely overwhelming when he does have them, which probably wouldn't be fun to play against. IMO they should just give him infinite charges of all his abilities and call it a day, I still don't think he'd be any higher than upper mid.

 

[blackghost]

So have any of the buffed characters from 3.1 got some new results already? I’m trying to se if the buffs have helped these characters out. I’m especially curious about Diddy. Wish all these characters got the same attention like Sheik did from VoiD when she was just buffed honestly.

I have noticed a few more bayo players showing up in locals. most of them had started ultimate with her and dropped her at events players like Jayy and lima had great showings at their first locals since the buffs. witch time kills moving forward will be a major source of kills under 150 percent.

Ken is terrifying he's routinely doing nonoptimized combos for 70 percent now. The ken players also havent fully implemented the shield break sets ups or jab locks into their gameplay yet.

robin is in a bad place. the hero reveal and gameplay looks like robins but improved. nonbreaking sword, stronger specials, and the hero can even power himself up. unless he has issues on air or ground speed not seeing why you wouldn't just play hero over robin objectively.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So have any of the buffed characters from 3.1 got some new results already? I’m trying to se if the buffs have helped these characters out. I’m especially curious about Diddy. Wish all these characters got the same attention like Sheik did from VoiD when she was just buffed honestly.

wasn't buffed in 3.1.0 but he's been getting some notable results from Elegant in the past few weeks since around the release of 3.1.0.

 

[meleebrawler]

robin is in a bad place. the hero reveal and gameplay looks like robins but improved. nonbreaking sword, stronger specials, and the hero can even power himself up. unless he has issues on air or ground speed not seeing why you wouldn't just play hero over robin objectively.

The fact that Hero's spells all draw from the same resource means he can leave himself high and dry in certain situations like recovery if he pushes too hard with them in another. And with the average cost seeming to be around 15 MP with a max of 100 to spend... I doubt it will easy to refill from empty compared to Robin, especially considering the relative difficulty of doing so in RPGs without an inn.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Wolf up B final hit hitbox visualization comparison between 3.1.0 and 3.0.0 pic.twitter.com/XkLEfIXX1A

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) June 7, 2019

Thank God, that's so much smaller now. How did I miss this?
Should be able to gimp Wolf now with Zelda which was practically impossible before.

 

[Arthur97]

Ouch. Poor Wolf. I don't use him, but all this nickle and diming. I don't want to see him end up dropping out of top tier.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Poor Wolf? lol how did that move pass QA testing in the first place like that? How does an extended kick make a hitbox that is essentially the size of two Wolf's put together? I don't understand the fascination with giving Wolf all these massive hitboxes.

 

[Arthur97]

I mean, they did mention pre-release how his moves had been powered up. Had to avoid false advertising I guess.

Still, they keep slowly chipping away at him, and he could drop off. I mean, yeah, I have Brawl nostalgia too. Not to mention I'm not a big nerf fan. That said, I would have rathered his forward tilt didn't have more range than Shulk's if nerfs must be applied.

 

[DungeonMaster]

That stupid move could hit you while you were standing *near* the ledge, not even pixel close at the ledge lip, but quite far away, and send you randomly into *either* the closest or the furthest horizontal blastzone. Utterly dumb. Nerf justified.

Some of us would have no problem with low tier space animals.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Wolf up B final hit hitbox visualization comparison between 3.1.0 and 3.0.0 pic.twitter.com/XkLEfIXX1A

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) June 7, 2019

Thank God, that's so much smaller now. How did I miss this?
Should be able to gimp Wolf now with Zelda which was practically impossible before.

It is actually reasonable now. Yay!
I hate trying to hit out of up B, but get hit by it even when I am on-stage and die at 70% while at it.

Still going to be somewhat tricky to intercept due to its traveling speed and power of the final hitbox.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Wolf is noticeably weaker now, still likely top 10 though, might not be top 5 anymore. He should be fine as long as they don't keep nerfing him.

 

[Y2Kay]

NYC local with 133 entrants. Lots of rep from NY and NJ. Come check it out.

https://www.twitch.tv/houseof3000

 

[Nobie]

Ultimate got rid of jab setups for the most part but has slowly been bringing them back for specific characters like Little Mac and the Shotos. I think it's their way of making the characters who suffer from more weaknesses in conventional smash areas have greater reward for just getting in.

 

[Minordeth]

Ultimate got rid of jab setups for the most part but has slowly been bringing them back for specific characters like Little Mac and the Shotos. I think it's their way of making the characters who suffer from make weaknesses in conventional smash areas have greater reward for just getting in.

Yeah! Like, Chroy.

...

 

[DunnoBro]

wasn't buffed in 3.1.0 but he's been getting some notable results from Elegant in the past few weeks since around the release of 3.1.0.

Didn't he get a change to plunger hitbox/angle? Elegant seems to be using it pretty well as a landing/ledge trap too.

 

[DelugeFGC]

A Cloud player recently took out Elegant and Void at a SoCal local, kid was only 13 too.. my main takeaway beyond the potential of this kid is that this kind of performance lends credence to Cloud being a high-tier character.. seen a lot of people rate him pretty poorly as of late, M2K's recent tier list had him in low tier for crying out loud.

I know overcoming Luigi and post-patch Pichu isn't the most startling accomplishment out there, but considering the players operating the characters? I'd say it's something.. plus it's wild to think the kid using him (Sparg0) is only 13 years old.

 

[Xenophon of Athens]

Don't forget he also took down Kameme off stream.

 

[Tri Knight]

M2K had a solid list but it's not perfect. Cloud is not a low tier. Cloud has the tools to be a great character. The only area he really lacks is recovery and I think the limit changes were a little uncalled for. But overall, he's a character that can do well for most players as just knowing the foundations is key to playing him - kind of like Ike, but with some gauge management.

That said, you gotta give that kid a lot of credit. The player plays the character, not the other way around.

 

[VodkaHaze]

Most tier lists made by one person will have issues. Take ESAM's. He put Luigi in low tier, despite the fact that players like Elegant have placed very well using him. You can't do that well at these tournaments if your character is low tier, even if you're great at the game.

Always take many tier list videos with a grain of salt.

 

[$.A.F.]

Most tier lists made by one person will have issues. Take ESAM's. He put Luigi in low tier, despite the fact that players like Elegant have placed very well using him. You can't do that well at these tournaments if your character is low tier, even if you're great at the game.

Always take many tier list videos with a grain of salt.

Kept, Komota, Brood, Sol

 

[Terotrous]

M2K had a solid list but it's not perfect. Cloud is not a low tier. Cloud has the tools to be a great character. The only area he really lacks is recovery and I think the limit changes were a little uncalled for. But overall, he's a character that can do well for most players as just knowing the foundations is key to playing him - kind of like Ike, but with some gauge management.

That said, you gotta give that kid a lot of credit. The player plays the character, not the other way around.

I find I'm generally much more in agreement with M2K, though I don't think Kirby is the worst, IMO Isabelle is the worst character. With Kirby, although you can play around him fairly easily, there are times where I'm scared against Kirby (if he's up close or lands certain moves), whereas I'm never afraid of Isabelle. I also HEAVILY disagree that Villager and Isabelle are comparably good, Villager is clearly much better.

I also don't think Samus is nearly as bad as people are saying. People seem to recognize that she has pretty good disadvantage but I think most people are discounting the fact that she can also go in. She has generally good buttons and her grab is actually quite good now, being decently fast and having surprisingly good follow-ups. And of course, she has the constant threat of Charge Shot, "oh, you whiffed a tilt, you're dead at 80", which deters enemy aggression and makes it fairly easy to close out stocks in most cases. The shield change doesn't really matter for her because you never want them to be shielding your charge shots anyway.

As for Sparg0, yeah, you can tell that his performance isn't luck. He clearly has great spacing and aggression. I think some of it could be the fact that he's 13 and thus doesn't really fear the good players - there's no "wong factor" here. If he keeps it up he'll be a big threat in the future for sure.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Shield changes absolutely mattered for Samus when they took away some of her shield break setups, one of the best things she had imo.

Samus has strengths, but a ton of weaknesses too. FAir is pretty much only good to edge guard and catch jumps, as the hitbox of the move is way too imprecise for it to work out well in other departments such as using it as a landing option. UAir is pretty much a worse version of Sheik / Joker's UAir in terms of the hitbox on the move / ease of landing it. I don't know the nuanced differences on UAir, but I have a hell of a lot harder of a time landing UAir with Samus than I do the other two characters who have the 'spinny twisty big kicks for big tricks' UAir. DAir is a bad move, I'm gonna say it right now. Yes it can spike / 2-frame but the delay / startup on this move and the tiny hitbox it has makes it one of the worst meteors in the game imo.. I like it better as a landing mixup personally. BAir is great, that move hits hard / kills, has a pretty reasonable hitbox and does a decent bit of damage. Me and BAir are alright. I'm also a big fan of NAir, works in a variety of situations including as a 'get off' tool in the air.

Otherwise we've got stuff like her jab, which is situationally useful depending on Jab 1 / Jab 2 which can be.. okay I guess. You have her Smash Attacks, the only one I think of which is worth using in most situations being USmash.. and hey that move works properly now so that's nice. I think her tilts are actually pretty alright, FTilt can serve a variety of tasks, UTilt has similar utility to C. Falcon's UTilt and DTilt can even be a kill mixup option. I both love and hate her grab as while it's on the faster side for tether grabs, her follow ups out of grab are actually pretty underwhelming compared to what some other characters have and overall her grab is still quite punishable if she whiffs.. I like it far more for ZAir than I do grab.

Then her specials, the stars of the show being charge shot and bombs. They ruined missiles in this game, truly just gutted them. The lag you incur for shooting these is one of the biggest problems Samus has and is the main reason I personally don't stick her up further than high mid-tier. Missiles are super punishable now and not nearly as valuable as a pressure / space tool as a result. Screw Attack is.. Screw Attack. Bombs are good for disadvantage, neutral and sometimes offstage.. bombs got a variety of ways to use them. Charge Shot is obviously fantastic.

Samus as I said has definite strengths, but due to her naturally low speed combined with factors such as the lag on her missiles, her neutral game suffers and on a character like that.. it matters a lot. Samus also isn't terribly hard to 'get in' on as a result, she can't shut down space as effectively as some other projectile characters can imo.

 

[Sean²]

Most tier lists made by one person will have issues. Take ESAM's. He put Luigi in low tier, despite the fact that players like Elegant have placed very well using him. You can't do that well at these tournaments if your character is low tier, even if you're great at the game.

Always take many tier list videos with a grain of salt.

This isn't the biggest issue with pro tier lists, really. It's that they all feed off of each other on the same few things, with little evidence supporting the claims. (See: Shulk)

 

[Terotrous]

Samus has strengths, but a ton of weaknesses too. FAir is pretty much only good to edge guard and catch jumps, as the hitbox of the move is way too imprecise for it to work out well in other departments such as using it as a landing option.

Fair is mainly useful as a combo tool, Dthrow Fair works on most of the cast for quite a while. I feel like in any situation where you want a "conventional" Fair, you use Nair.

Then her specials, the stars of the show being charge shot and bombs. They ruined missiles in this game, truly just gutted them. The lag you incur for shooting these is one of the biggest problems Samus has and is the main reason I personally don't stick her up further than high mid-tier. Missiles are super punishable now and not nearly as valuable as a pressure tool as a result. Screw Attack is.. Screw Attack. Bombs are good for disadvantage, neutral and sometimes offstage.. bombs got a variety of ways to use them. Charge Shot is obviously fantastic.

I feel like non-homing missile has a little bit of use, but yeah, generally missiles aren't great. One thing you missed though is that Screw Attack is one of the best OOS options in the entire game, being very fast and having startup invincibility, it's basically like a lesser dolphin slash.

Samus also isn't terribly hard to 'get in' on as a result, she can't shut down space as effectively as some other projectile characters can imo.

While it's not that hard to close in on Samus, I feel like the potency of her whiff punishes plus her good OOS options means you have to be a lot more cautious in your offense against her than with some other characters. She also has generally good buttons and a good disadvantage state so she can go a bit ham vs some characters without paying for it too badly.


I certainly don't think Samus is top tier, but I say she's solidly towards the higher end of mid tier. She's a character whose moveset generally supports her overall gameplan and she has some top notch tools, which is generally the mark of a fairly decent character. I also think she has a decent matchup spread, in particular I think she does well vs swordies, which is pretty significant as there are so many of them in the higher tiers.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Me saying "Screw Attack is.. Screw Attack" was actually a way of saying the move doesn't seem to have changed much, and as-such there's not much I can add on it. SA has always been a good OoS option AFAIK, and given how little changed about the move going from older games into newer games, I just figured it was a given.

Also I agree with you, Samus is a definite high mid-tier character. I never meant to imply she was bad, no way in hell is she.

 

[The_Bookworm]

They ruined missiles in this game, truly just gutted them. The lag you incur for shooting these is one of the biggest problems Samus has and is the main reason I personally don't stick her up further than high mid-tier. Missiles are super punishable now and not nearly as valuable as a pressure / space tool as a result.

What do you mean? Missiles got nothing but buffs in this game.

Missiles actually has less lag in this game than in SSB4, albeit by not that much ((FAF 57 -> 55 (Homing), 59 -> 58 (Super)). They also deal more damage ((5% -> 8% (Homing), 10% -> 12% (Super)) without compensation on knockback. Super Missiles now have a bit of a stall before zooming forward, which allows it to stay out for longer. Missiles also now allows Samus to drift horizontally after firing one midair, and it no longer halt her aerial momentum.

Me saying "Screw Attack is.. Screw Attack" was actually a way of saying the move doesn't seem to have changed much, and as-such there's not much I can add on it. SA has always been a good OoS option AFAIK, and given how little changed about the move going from older games into newer games, I just figured it was a given.

Screw Attack is even better OoS than in SSB4, given that it has less lag before Samus begins falling, and it now comes out at frame 4 rather than frame 5.

For the most part, you are right about Screw Attack needing no explanation on its function outside of recovery.

 

[Terotrous]

Me saying "Screw Attack is.. Screw Attack" was actually a way of saying the move doesn't seem to have changed much, and as-such there's not much I can add on it. SA has always been a good OoS option AFAIK, and given how little changed about the move going from older games into newer games, I just figured it was a given.

One thing that changed is that you can now do UpB OOS with tap jump off! I mean yes, technically you could do it before with jump cancels but in terms of consistency in high pressure situations this is a pretty significant QoL upgrade, I feel it's a stealth buff to all characters with good UpB OOS.

What do you mean? Missiles got nothing but buffs in this game.

I assumed it was in reference to Melee. I feel Samus basically got nothing but buffs compared to Brawl / 4, but not many people played her so you could kind of argue that this is the first time since Melee that she's really been relevant.

 

[DelugeFGC]

It was indeed a reference to Melee, as I didn't really play much Sm4sh. Compared to her Side-B in Melee, Samus' Ult Side-B feels laggier than all hell.

 

[Sunredo]

The fact that Hero's spells all draw from the same resource means he can leave himself high and dry in certain situations like recovery if he pushes too hard with them in another. And with the average cost seeming to be around 15 MP with a max of 100 to spend... I doubt it will easy to refill from empty compared to Robin, especially considering the relative difficulty of doing so in RPGs without an inn.

I would like to touch on a couple things because while you are correct Hero wouldn't be necessarily dry when he runs out of MP, dehydrated assuredly but not dry. Assuming that the spells work in a similar fashion to how they do in DQ, Hero would have at least Zoom for a recovery option and Psyche Up to make his next attack stronger, this is because both of these do not cost MP. However the problem Hero will encounter will be with Zoom's linearity and Psyche Up's high startup (As seen in the trailer when he uses Bounce, he activated it while Bounce was still in effect, which is how it's probably supposed to be used) is being extremely predictable as soon as he runs out of MP. Zoom looks especially spikable and Psyche Up will only finish when the opponent isn't on the stage because otherwise they'll interrupt it easily.

Between Robin and Hero, Robin seems much more reliable for controlling space and applying pressure in neutral. Hero will be much more potent at the start, but if he can only use a few spells then he needs to make those spells worthwhile. Using the same spell repeatedly aside from maybe Oomph doesn't seem viable as it will just drain his MP. If Hero is done correctly then he might just have the highest skill floor and ceiling in the game. MP punishes players who repeatedly use spells by taking away the ability to use them. Hero mains will need to have critical decision making skills if they want to bring out Hero's full potential.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Samus is absolutely amazing in this game. Not top tier, but definitely high tier. Her main difficulty competitively is lack of representation and a complex neutral.

By complex neutral I mean that you need a large amount of matchup knowledge because optimal options are not identical one character to the next. Simple example is pichu requires a lot more bombs and ganon loses to super missile. Her combos are sick but they require similar precision as to Ken because if you fail reversals can get you hurt.


Super missiles are hilariously strong. One super missile causes enough shield damage for combo and kill options to automatically poke. And if the super missile hits it likewise has extensive combo and kill options.

Bombs are increadible for combos at any percent, restricting air or ground space, edge-guards, ledge traps, recovery and mix up.

Charge shot is damn near busted. Combos into other starters notably grab and kill options, particularly pivot slide f-smash. Offers wave bounce and b-reverse movement options, cancels into z-air, edge guards, kills and makes you coffee.


One of the best Up-b OOS, a tether grab - which for the first time in smash is actually superior to a normal grab, fastest disjointed excellent f-smash, 3rd strongest b-air, 5th stongest n-air, combo up-air, disjointed f-air, poking and combo z-air. The list goes on.

I made the "Samus community patch request" video for Smash 4 Samus. I had no illusions, a bad opinion of the character, she had tons of problems in 4. Things improved with patches and she eventually was more or less mid-tier by the end of 4. Everything changed in Ultimate, character is great bordering on fantastic.

 

[Lacrimosa]

M2K had a solid list but it's not perfect. Cloud is not a low tier. Cloud has the tools to be a great character. The only area he really lacks is recovery and I think the limit changes were a little uncalled for. But overall, he's a character that can do well for most players as just knowing the foundations is key to playing him - kind of like Ike, but with some gauge management.

That said, you gotta give that kid a lot of credit. The player plays the character, not the other way around.

Sometimes I don't get M2K's choices when he talks about players of certain characters. Like, I know he plays Salem and Salem has a pocket Zelda but not mentioning Ven and Mystearica is a big ??? But I wrote a comment under his tier-lists, so I won't elaborate here :3.
Otherwise, I like his approach because a tier-list is something that also represents viability and tournament results are mostly dictated by the viability of a character. I think every character up to mid-tier in his tier-list is at least viable. I don't really care for the exact spots and if a character is high- or mid-tier because the gap between characters in these tiers is so small. Pretty much boils down to the player: Is the player tired, had a bad day etc. is very important in Ultimate. In Sm4sh, a player having a bad day playing Bayo would still win over a player with a good day playing...dunno...most of the cast.

There are still some minor things I'd like to see patched but the balancing is extremely tight this time around.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I dabbled casually in Samus starting from a little before the Melee -> Brawl transition and I have to say Ultimate's version of her feels leagues smoother than any prior entry. Like, in 4, I hated her nair and could never get it to work right. But in Ultimate I'm smacking faces with it regularly? I really don't understand what changed there. Startup frames I guess?

The buffs to her missiles (damage, frame data) also helped a lot. She can actually play a projectile game! I've always found it funny in a sad way that the series always seemed to unofficially lean on her as the de facto projectile character (probably a holdover from 64 where she was the only one with a strong knockback projectile in the first place) yet she couldn't play the projectile game all that well and still had to go in a lot.

 

[|RK|]

Samus is absolutely amazing in this game. Not top tier, but definitely high tier. Her main difficulty competitively is lack of representation and a complex neutral.

By complex neutral I mean that you need a large amount of matchup knowledge because optimal options are not identical one character to the next. Simple example is pichu requires a lot more bombs and ganon loses to super missile. Her combos are sick but they require similar precision as to Ken because if you fail reversals can get you hurt.


Super missiles are hilariously strong. One super missile causes enough shield damage for combo and kill options to automatically poke. And if the super missile hits it likewise has extensive combo and kill options.

Bombs are increadible for combos at any percent, restricting air or ground space, edge-guards, ledge traps, recovery and mix up.

Charge shot is damn near busted. Combos into other starters notably grab and kill options, particularly pivot slide f-smash. Offers wave bounce and b-reverse movement options, cancels into z-air, edge guards, kills and makes you coffee.


One of the best Up-b OOS, a tether grab - which for the first time in smash is actually superior to a normal grab, fastest disjointed excellent f-smash, 3rd strongest b-air, 5th stongest n-air, combo up-air, disjointed f-air, poking and combo z-air. The list goes on.

I made the "Samus community patch request" video for Smash 4 Samus. I had no illusions, a bad opinion of the character, she had tons of problems in 4. Things improved with patches and she eventually was more or less mid-tier by the end of 4. Everything changed in Ultimate, character is great bordering on fantastic.

Charge Shot is ultra busted. Tbh, most Samus players that I've seen at the lower or mid levels still use it like S4 charge shot.

Phan7om recently said that top representation is bigger than any buff or patch, and I agree with that 1000%. Leo using Gun made a bunch of mid level Joker players realize "oh wait, this move is godlike," so maybe top Samus rep will make people realize the same about Charge Shot. The move is SO gross, dude.

-signed, your resident b-button specialist