Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[The_Bookworm]

I have a question here for the thread: some people in this thread is claiming that characters like Olimar, Peach/Daisy, Wolf, and Pichu are not really contenders for top 5 anymore. Here is the question: who is exactly top 5 right now?

A common answer I see right now is Snake and Joker, but what other character fits the top 5 quota? Maybe the four characters I mentioned (particularly Peach/Daisy and Wolf) are still top 5 contenders. I am curious to see what you people think.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think if they fix his shield Olimar is still a top tier contender, he still has loltier damage output and can kill you at like 70% off a single purple smash read. I've went back to him (everyone else just felt.. wrong) and honestly I feel I overreacted.

But shield fixed or no, wouldn't put him in top 5. I'd say Snake, Joker, Pikachu and the Princesses would make up an accurate top 5 atm.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think if they fix his shield Olimar is still a top tier contender, he still has loltier damage output and can kill you at like 70% off a single purple smash read. I've went back to him (everyone else just felt.. wrong) and honestly I feel I overreacted.

Agreed. Olimar would probably still be top tier if it weren't for his faulty shield. The recovery nerf is barely noticeable at the end, and while the forward/up smash nerf does harm in terms of walking around and spamming the C-stick, it doesn't affect him to much. Still a solid high tier at worse, and knowing Nintendo, the shield issue will probably be fixed in the next update considering that this looks like a bit of an oversight. It seems like every update, Nintendo always seems to introduce a new glitch/inconsistency with Olimar, fix it in the next patch, but then introduce something new in the future.

I have noticed throughout the thread's history that you are kind of quick about switching characters. Patience is key when learning and dealing with a character of your choice. Then again, I had a constant character crisis throughout the first 4-5 months of the game, so I guess I am one to talk about switching characters and character crisis.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Agreed. Olimar would probably still be top tier if it weren't for his faulty shield. The recovery nerf is barely noticeable at the end, and while the forward/up smash nerf does harm in terms of walking around and spamming the C-stick, it doesn't affect him to much. Still a solid high tier at worse, and knowing Nintendo, the shield issue will probably be fixed in the next update considering that this looks like a bit of an oversight. It seems like every update, Nintendo always seems to introduce a new glitch/inconsistency with Olimar, fix it in the next patch, but then introduce something new in the future.

I have noticed throughout the thread's history that you are kind of quick about switching characters. Patience is key when learning and dealing with a character of your choice. Then again, I had a constant character crisis throughout the first 4-5 months of the game, so I guess I am one to talk about switching characters and character crisis.

I always end up back with Olimar, lmfao.

For me it was a nuanced situation of hate I got at locals / online combined with me playing other characters and liking them. This game has such a diverse and balanced cast picking a main is genuinely difficult, and locking yourself into one character in this meta feels so.. limiting.

If anything, I'm a beast at roster hopping in friendlies now, LOL. It's also given me quite a lot of MU knowledge I don't think I would've otherwise had if not playing those characters myself. I like too many characters in this game, that's my biggest problem. It's not even a question of overall viability a lot of the time, sometimes I just fall in love with a playstyle.

 

[Rizen]

I have a question here for the thread: some people in this thread is claiming that characters like Olimar, Peach/Daisy, Wolf, and Pichu are not really contenders for top 5 anymore. Here is the question: who is exactly top 5 right now?

A common answer I see right now is Snake and Joker, but what other character fits the top 5 quota? Maybe the four characters I mentioned (particularly Peach/Daisy and Wolf) are still top 5 contenders. I am curious to see what you people think.

Top 5's not the best way to view it but this is how I see top tier:
()/
This is a very rough order as it's hard to tell how badly certain nerfs hurt. Notice Pichu fell down to high tier and Greninja moved up due to the lower power level. Wolf and the Princesses might belong on the other side of the dividing line too, I'm not sure and Olimar could be high tier.

 

[$.A.F.]

Top 5's not the best way to view it but this is how I see top tier:
()/
This is a very rough order as it's hard to tell how badly certain nerfs hurt. Notice Pichu fell down to high tier and Greninja moved up due to the lower power level. Wolf and the Princesses might belong on the other side of the dividing line too, I'm not sure and Olimar could be high tier.

Joker?

 

[Rizen]

Joker?

I think Joker's high tier and people haven't figured out Leo's Joker yet. He's new and getting a lot of attention now but that will somewhat drop off. From what I've seen counterplay in gimping him, playing keep away from Arsene and punishing RG is underdeveloped. People need to treat Joker as a special case who's 2 stages and not contest Arsene so much. He'll still be a strong choice just not as strong as characters like Fox.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I still feel like 's most likely a top tier, though he's not on the top of the pack anymore. Even with a slightly bigger hitbox and a janky kill option removed, he still almost has everything that made him ridiculous. From what I can tell, it's still got one of the smallest hurtboxes in the entire game; I don't know if anyone watched the set between RFang, and Fatality, but Pichu still shortens its hurtbox in a lot of its animations, especially his landing ones. Based on that, comboing it looks easier overall, but getting the drop on the little bugger is still a pain in the fanny, especially if you're a tall character like or .

Not only that, but aside from a FSmash nerf, its damage output and frame data weren't touched at all. It's still getting 40~50% off of frame 4~8 stuff like up tilt, grab, down tilt, insert landing option here, all of which are still extremely strong combo tools. Thunder Jolt also didn't get touched in the frame data department either, so Pichu's still got a very safe and spammable pressure tool from a distance that can lead into a grab or other shenanigans just on the premises of how nutty Pichu's frame data is, especially towards characters that lack answers to that projectile aside from shielding. And honestly, as long as BAir, Thunder, and its kill confirms don't get touch, the annoying little rat's still got no problems with KOing.

RFang's recent performance with him at Grand Tour is certainly a good sign of things to come, though we'll need to see if that type of performance will last. Like the other top tiers that got nerfed, I still think Pichu has almost everything that made it absurd, it's just dodging every single little thing or killing people by flicking dust on them.

As for other potential top tiers, I think 's low-key ridiculous; every time I watch kameme, yeti, or ScAtt, I'm struggling to come up with what major problems the Blue Bomber actually has. I can see , , and as other potential top tiers, though it's way too early to tell for them.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

I have a question here for the thread: some people in this thread is claiming that characters like Olimar, Peach/Daisy, Wolf, and Pichu are not really contenders for top 5 anymore. Here is the question: who is exactly top 5 right now?

A common answer I see right now is Snake and Joker, but what other character fits the top 5 quota? Maybe the four characters I mentioned (particularly Peach/Daisy and Wolf) are still top 5 contenders. I am curious to see what you people think.

Honestly, I think Kirby's got a chance at top tier. Now that he's got most of his attacks buffed, he's starting to come back to those 1999 glory days of old. He's got increased kill power, more super armor, and increased combo potential on opponents when they're at high percents on those god-forsaken Battlefield stages. (Seriously guys, just play FD stages. It gives you more room to combo without platforms!)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Top 5's not the best way to view it but this is how I see top tier:
()/
This is a very rough order as it's hard to tell how badly certain nerfs hurt. Notice Pichu fell down to high tier and Greninja moved up due to the lower power level. Wolf and the Princesses might belong on the other side of the dividing line too, I'm not sure and Olimar could be high tier.

Id say Palu is def top 10 now due to remaining unscathed in the 3.1.0 patch. I dunno about top 5. I wonder what really is between and . both thier centers a good deal on their opressive nairs but the latter has e fallinen off harder . Then again Palu has a bit more variance and options in her approach overall, and has that bair as well. But I think characters defined by one or two oppressive/janky moves that masks notable flaws kinda have issues in this game.

Pichu may be a just slightly less cannon, but she is considerabally more glass now with the increased hitboxes combined now with additonal self-damage across the board. Many of her tools asaide from f-tilt may be as stong as ever but the self-damage will really add up if you spam them carelessly

 

[DelugeFGC]

Pichu FTilt is in no way 'as strong as ever' considering it doesn't kill until like 135%+ at the ledge now.

They gutted that move.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Pichu FTilt is in no way 'as strong as ever' considering it doesn't kill until like 135%+ at the ledge now.

They gutted that move.

I would have preferred if they gave the move more lag since Pichu isn't lacking at all in frame data.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Here is the question: who is exactly top 5 right now?

We honestly don't know.
It's still too early to tell since characters seem to jump placings and tiers every week.
Just look at .

 

[Kiligar]

I have a question here for the thread: some people in this thread is claiming that characters like Olimar, Peach/Daisy, Wolf, and Pichu are not really contenders for top 5 anymore. Here is the question: who is exactly top 5 right now?

A common answer I see right now is Snake and Joker, but what other character fits the top 5 quota? Maybe the four characters I mentioned (particularly Peach/Daisy and Wolf) are still top 5 contenders. I am curious to see what you people think.

Snake, Joker, Inkling, Pikachu, Wario.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm only confident in (/) being within the top 5 in no particular order. After that its a wild mass guessing game of who values what more + the most recent results from a major. I think its fairer to say those 3 are ahead of the pack rather than try to force a top 5 or top 10 at this point in time.

 

[bc1910]

(with no limit)



(highly dependant on Nana)

/
(thanks to the aformentioned nerf)

Guess that's pretty much it for characters with a rather bad recovery. The others are probably better and this topic is boring already (but also the best recoveries are pretty ovious)

However, what about Olimar's recovery? It got nerfed but how notable is that nerf in actual gameplay?

Wolf’s recovery isn’t that bad. He has great aerial drift, a fast fall speed for mixups and two strong recovery moves that can kill you for messing up an edgeguard. His recovery is deceptively good and overall the most dangerous of the space animals. That said, both his recovery moves have significant startup so he relies on his airdodge and positioning against active edgeguarders.

Bowser Jr’s is also pretty good. It offers great distance, he can attack during almost everything he does and he gets multiple double jumps thanks to the side B dash. Its main weakness is of course not getting the Clown Car back with a light hit out of Up B, which does suck but isn’t that abusable for most characters if he hugs the stage. After doing this once or twice he can go for recovery mixups which he might not get punished for.

Some other bad recoveries are slow moving recoveries with hitboxes, given the amount of characters with counters who can easily abuse them. These include Bowser, Luigi, Roy and the Links if they aren’t able to get bombs to blow up in time or reach the ledge with tether (they will often be able to get at least one of these things though; their recoveries are good overall especially BoTW Link given how much control he has over his bombs, they just have pretty bad up Bs).

I actually think all the PT Pokemon have bad recoveries individually but the ability to switch as well as Charizard’s multi jumps and distance covered give them a good recovery overall.

Top 5's not the best way to view it but this is how I see top tier:
()/
This is a very rough order as it's hard to tell how badly certain nerfs hurt. Notice Pichu fell down to high tier and Greninja moved up due to the lower power level. Wolf and the Princesses might belong on the other side of the dividing line too, I'm not sure and Olimar could be high tier.

Swap Olimar for Pika and this is right on the money in my opinion. My order would be different (my main issue is Fox being way too high) but certainly the same group makes up my personal top tier, which also happens to be top 10 for you arbitrary number fans out there. I could probably throw Joker in somewhere but meh. There’s an argument that Greninja and Wario belong in high tier rather than top tier based on results but I think this is down to popularity more than anything else, they both have good top level wins and are pretty nuts overall.

I feel Olimar has no place in top tier with his shield being the way it is. It’s difficult to judge him without this, but I do think the other nerfs knocked him down enough to the point where he’s easier to fight for a large chunk of characters than the other top tiers. His damage output is still ridiculous and he’s still a small slippery character with plenty of strengths such as strong disjointed attacks and an excellent camp game. I can’t see him in mid tier or anything.

The thing about Joker is that whilst he could well be top tier, the gap between Leo’s results and literally every other Joker’s results is gigantic. It’s not possible to separate character from player at this point. There’s also the counterplay argument; the fact that no one has really labbed this MU at top level, no one is abusing the character’s patently poor recovery and several bad MUs are already emerging including Pika, Pichu, Fox, Greninja and Inkling. Even the Sonics think they win slightly.

Top 5 for me is Snake, Pika, Inkling, Lucina and probably Wario. This is arbitrary though, these 10 are pretty close in power IMO.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I have a question here for the thread: some people in this thread is claiming that characters like Olimar, Peach/Daisy, Wolf, and Pichu are not really contenders for top 5 anymore. Here is the question: who is exactly top 5 right now?

A common answer I see right now is Snake and Joker, but what other character fits the top 5 quota? Maybe the four characters I mentioned (particularly Peach/Daisy and Wolf) are still top 5 contenders. I am curious to see what you people think.

(no real order, just to show 5 really good characters)

I think that looks fairly reasonable if you say Peach/Daisy aren't Top 5 anymore. But I don't think the nerfs hurt Peach/Daisy that much such their strengths aren't really gone. The story would be different if fAir would kill much later than Pichu's fTilt but that's not the case.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm only confident in (/) being within the top 5 in no particular order. After that its a wild mass guessing game of who values what more + the most recent results from a major. I think its fairer to say those 3 are ahead of the pack rather than try to force a top 5 or top 10 at this point in time.

I don't think Wolf is, I personally think characters like Pikachu, Inkling, and Palutena have a stronger case (especially Pikachu, he greatly benefited from the Olimar nerfs).

I'm not convinced any of those three are top 5 right now, actually, especially if we consider Joker (who seems to be getting more developed as we speak, although it's hard to tell how much is MkLeo and how much is the character), Shulk (memes aside, this character truly seems great in this game) and Greninja (might not be top 5 but seems like a really strong character and fairly likely to be top 10 at least).

 

[bc1910]

I don't think Wolf is, I personally think characters like Pikachu, Inkling, and Palutena have a stronger case (especially Pikachu, he greatly benefited from the Olimar nerfs).

I'm not convinced any of those three are top 5 right now, actually, especially if we consider Joker (who seems to be getting more developed as we speak, although it's hard to tell how much is MkLeo and how much is the character), Shulk (memes aside, this character truly seems great in this game) and Greninja (might not be top 5 but seems like a really strong character and fairly likely to be top 10 at least).

To add to this, MUs are my main consideration for my top tier/top 5. I agree that Olimar’s nerfs help Pikachu a ton, they also help Inkling a lot and arguably Snake. Pikachu is often cited as a losing MU for characters while having very few losing MUs himself, arguably losing only to Ness and Peach. Inkling is similar losing only to Peach and (apparently) ROB with everything else even at worst. Lucina’s MUs are similarly excellent, arguably losing only to Greninja and possibly Snake. I don’t know enough about Wario’s MUs to make any claims other than he seems to struggle with swords a bit, but Tweek certainly makes most of his MUs look very doable.

Snake is the exception to the rule, he has plenty of iffy MUs both on paper and in practice, but it’s at the point where you just can’t ignore his results in my opinion. Some of his potential counterpicks like Isabelle and Gunner are too niche to see heavy use at high level, his biggest top tier struggle is probably Palu.

Peach has definitely been shown to struggle with hyper mobile characters like Joker and Greninja, and swords can give her trouble, but she has valuable rare winning MUs against Pika and Inkling plus virtually anyone who has to engage her up close. This balances out to a top tier position but there are characters with better spreads overall. Palu is similar, she loses to certain speedsters and rushdowns (Pika and Inkling rear their heads again) with an otherwise solid but not overbearing spread.

Greninja players can’t agree on who he loses to; Snake, Inkling and Pika are all thought to be hard for him among the top tiers even if they are still evenish overall. He benefitted a lot from the Pichu nerfs and has some valuable winning MUs against Lucina, Peach and arguably Palu. He also destroys certain niche picks lower down on the tier list, especially slower characters and heavies. Gren’s MU spread is potentially excellent.

Shulk is dumb good on paper but just hasn’t shown anything in practice for me to reasonably put him in top tier. He does still have notable weaknesses in his slow startup frame data and inconsistent recovery (Jump double jump and Speed in general are silly good but if these aren’t available or he doesn’t have a double jump he’s in trouble, and even with them the lack of ledge snap makes his Up B counter fodder). It’s certainly possible he’s overrated as these weaknesses can be quite exploitable, there’s probably not enough data to say either way.

 

[blackghost]

for the people still dragging their feet on joker, im curious what are you waiting for? this character places well in locals, has placed well in large events, posses unique tools for combo game, edge gaurding, projectiles, and pressure.
he combos into kill moves from certain hits, has a counter that makes pressuring him lead to unique game states.

why are some people dragging their feet on saying he's top tier?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

for the people still dragging their feet on joker, im curious what are you waiting for? this character places well in locals, has placed well in large events, posses unique tools for combo game, edge gaurding, projectiles, and pressure.
he combos into kill moves from certain hits, has a counter that makes pressuring him lead to unique game states.

why are some people dragging their feet on saying he's top tier?

Time for counterplay to develop, and then counterplay to said counterplay.

Nothing about "dragging feet", everything to do with "large chunk of the top level players haven't ran into a super high level Joker yet, should probably wait for some back and forth character development before trying to crown a character top tier because we've had repeated overreactions one way or another to DLC characters in the past, realistically speaking you need several months before you can accurately place them".

 

[Nobie]

I increasingly think that post-patch Ryu is going to turn out amazing, and the key to that is the hadoken buffs.

Ryu's essential weakness is getting camped out because he runs fairly slowly and doesn't have much disjoint in general. But now, not every character wants to play the range game against him when his fireballs are doing 12-14% damage and he can vary the timing. He can use them to approach, but he doesn't have to.

But the fireballs still have a fair amount of end lag, and he can't spam them the way Wolf or other characters can. So you close the gap on him and...wait, that's what he wanted all along! Now you're in close range, where his frame data is amazing and a simple and safe two-hit combo can deal over 20%. Combined with the improved comboability of many of his attacks, and that's the a scary place to be.

The big thing is that Ryu is versatile now, and he can choose a viable game plan based on the opponent. Against characters who want to get in, you can harass with fireballs and then overwhelm them up close when they're on tilt from trying to get through. Against ranged characters, fireballs tell them there's a risk to staying out there, and when Ryu closes the gap, they're gonna pay.

I think the only problem is dedicated projectile specialists like Mega Man and Olimar, and even they have to be scared of Ryu once he gets in.

 

[TimG57867]

The results of Sumabato SP 5 are in!

https://twitter.com/juddy_96/status/1142384182817120257?s=21
https://challonge.com/sumabatosp5t
Sumabato SP 5 (320 entrants) (Osaka, Kansai, Japan)

1. Shuton
2. T
3. Zackray
4. Masha
5. HIKARU
5. Lunamado
7. Tea
7. Lv.1
9. Sigma
9. Kome
9. Tsumusuto
9. Umeki
13. ZAKI
13. Shogun
13. Parme
13. Phisakura
17. Masashi
17. Manzoku
17. Etsuji
17. Atelier
17. taranito
17. Meteo
17. Ako
17. DIO
25. Ri-ma
25. akasa
25. tk3
25. Lucia
25. Maruttidabe
25. Navy
25. Nyaha
25. Egapon


4 things really catch my eye here:

1. As we’ve been increasingly postulating, the only super punishing nerf got was the likely accidental one of his shield not covering his body properly anymore and Shuton being able to come out on top despite competition like Zackray, T, Tea, and others being present supports this notion. If they fix his shield Olimar will likely be just fine.

2. continue to outperform in Japan which is a contrast to how their performances in the West. Particularly the US. I wonder what leads to this inversion of performances.

3. For all the debate he’s been drumming there was no present in Top 32 in any shape or form. Not even Zackray whipped him out. A pretty interesting development in the wake of Leo’s recent success. Either Japan’s Joker counterplay is more honed or Leo’s just that ahead of the curve. This could also have been an account of lack of strong Joker dabblers present although a lot of the best Joker gameplay we’ve seen from Japanese smashers has been from ones who are focused on other characters like Tsu or have deep pockets overall like Zackray. Wonder how he’ll perform in the next major there.

4. My favorite to bring up, is a rather impressive Top 12 placing from Tsumusuto, a solo and according to Juddy apparently the best Japanese one from SSB4. I personally feel Dr. Mario is quite underestimated but his results til now have been held up quite heavily by Luis and Locus who both have another character they utilize frequently and with the latter now shifting focus to Ken I was worried Doc’s rep would take a hit so this is quite an encouraging development. I really hope he attends more Japanese majors. still hogs some limelight from him but with even OG Mario not being quite as popular as in SSB4 and Dr. Mario’s underrated buffs, this could be the game for him to finally break out.

Would like to hear others thoughts.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Would like to hear others thoughts.

My primary thought is "holy character diversity batman." I'm counting...29 unique characters represented in the top 32? That's almost ridiculous.

 

[Rizen]

for the people still dragging their feet on joker, im curious what are you waiting for? this character places well in locals, has placed well in large events, posses unique tools for combo game, edge gaurding, projectiles, and pressure.
he combos into kill moves from certain hits, has a counter that makes pressuring him lead to unique game states.

why are some people dragging their feet on saying he's top tier?

Because other players than Leo aren't doing better with Joker than their mains, like Void and Tweek. If you look on Orion Stats he's 23rd. Joker's a well rounded character who doesn't excel at any single thing. His combo game's good but he can't vortex like Pichu and Fox and doesn't have their amazing frame data. He gets out zoned by swords like Lucina and out-camped by better projectiles. Arsene is powerful and fixes his hitbox issues but I think defensive play while he's out will limit the impact. Non-Arsene Joker's a little undertuned.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Because other players than Leo aren't doing better with Joker than their mains, like Void and Tweek. If you look on Orion Stats he's 23rd. Joker's a well rounded character who doesn't excel at any single thing. His combo game's good but he can't vortex like Pichu and Fox and doesn't have their amazing frame data. He gets out zoned by swords like Lucina and out-camped by better projectiles. Arsene is powerful and fixes his hitbox issues but I think defensive play while he's out will limit the impact. Non-Arsene Joker's a little undertuned.

And is only 25th there.

 

[PK Gaming]

Non-Arsene Joker's a little undertuned.

Are we really going to go through this song and dance again where we pretend that a character with top class grab data, incredible throws, excellent movement, a solid combo game, terrific edgeguarding, great anti-zoning and deceptively good recovery is undertuned? The "MKLeo effect" is real, but that doesn't preclude Joker from having demonstrable strengths.

 

[Rizen]

Are we really going to go through this song and dance again where we pretend that a character with top class grab data, incredible throws, excellent movement, a solid combo game, terrific edgeguarding, great anti-zoning and deceptively good recovery is undertuned? The "MKLeo effect" is real, but that doesn't preclude Joker from having demonstrable strengths.

Joker is undertuned, intentionally. It's easy to simply list a character's strengths and act like they're great but that's not the whole story. Joker's hitboxes are small and his frame data's good but not great. He's extremely vulnerable offstage and his anti-zoning isn't great IDK what you're talking about; all you have to do is cover the area under the ledge to hit him.

 

[DelugeFGC]

One thing I don't understand is how some people talk about how 'extremely punishable' things such as Joker's recovery and RG are but.. it just remains to not be seen, months and months later. Is there counterplay against it possible? Yes, of course, but people keep talking as if Joker can't do several different things to mix up his recovery (the simplest being not snapping immediately to the ledge) and even if you punish RG.. well if you didn't kill Joker with the punish, overall charging up Arsene for him = you lost that interaction in the end.

I think Joker could be a functional High Tier - character.. if Arsene didn't exist. With him, as a whole package.. acting as if Joker isn't a top tier candidate is just silly. He has way too much good that's outright undeniable, and you can't act as if MKLeo didn't specifically choose to pick this character up to wreck ass with.. without good reason for doing so.

MKLeo picked up Joker BECAUSE he was good, Leo didn't make Joker good.

 

[Rizen]

One thing I don't understand is how some people talk about how 'punishable' things such as Joker's recovery and RG are but.. it just remains to not be seen, months and months later.

I've gotten several KOs by smashing RG wiffs. It has 33f of endlag; people punish it all the time. His recovery always takes the same path under the ledge it's not hard to punish. It's the most linear recovery in the game. You not seeing something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Joker's performance is good but not nearly the level of top tiers:

He definitely could rise but could also be figured out and fall.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I've gotten several KOs by smashing RG wiffs. It has 33f of endlag; people punish it all the time. His recovery always takes the same path under the ledge it's not hard to punish. It's the most linear recovery in the game. You not seeing something doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Joker's performance is good but not nearly the level of top tiers:

He definitely could rise but could also be figured out and fall.

This graph shows pretty well why I wish Awestin and FOW travel more. Ness is undoubtedly a really good character with a huge player base but in his case the best two Nesses don't really go to other tourney than locals although BestNess and Gackt are still doing work with him.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I will say again, Joker has a ton of ways to mix up his recovery, if you're gimping a Joker often.. well what is his player likely not doing? Mixing up. When he can avoid snapping to the ledge entirely and delay snapping with the tether, go high, etc.. nah he does not have the most linear recovery in the game.. what? Did you forget Mac and friends exist? Seriously, I am not kidding, the amount of people I have completely thwarted edge guard attempts from by simply going low with the tether and delaying the snap.. and that's just ONE mixup.

I will also say again, if you don't outright kill Joker during this RG punish, the interaction was not in your favor, you've just given him Arsene. It's also very MU specific if you can even get the punish off. Also keep in mind while you can potentially counter RG, if the Joker player becomes smarter and more well timed with their usage of the move, your window to get a punish has the potential to shrink to non-existence, counterplay exists on both sides of this equation here.

Joker's hitboxes aren't on-par with most other Swordies, but they aren't small and a F5 BAir in combination with his mobility makes it to where he doesn't have issues getting outspaced by swordies really.. at all? His anti-zoning is very much a thing.

Also how is no-Arsene Joker 'undertuned' exactly? He still has baller combo game / throws, good mixups and landing options, F5 BAir + high mobility is still a thing, he can still absolutely kill you.. like.. what?

Another thing I see said is that timing out Arsene is viable.. how? The best option is to literally beat it out of him, you're talking about a character with top-rate mobility, projectiles, disjointed hitboxes and everything else.. playing keepaway is in no way viable if the character operating Joker is familiar with using him. Running away from Joker w/ Arsene is not comparable to juking out a Cloud with his Limit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The results of Sumabato SP 5 are in!

https://twitter.com/juddy_96/status/1142384182817120257?s=21
https://challonge.com/sumabatosp5t
Sumabato SP 5 (320 entrants) (Osaka, Kansai, Japan)

1. Shuton
2. T
3. Zackray
4. Masha
5. HIKARU
5. Lunamado
7. Tea
7. Lv.1
9. Sigma
9. Kome
9. Tsumusuto
9. Umeki
13. ZAKI
13. Shogun
13. Parme
13. Phisakura
17. Masashi
17. Manzoku
17. Etsuji
17. Atelier
17. taranito
17. Meteo
17. Ako
17. DIO
25. Ri-ma
25. akasa
25. tk3
25. Lucia
25. Maruttidabe
25. Navy
25. Nyaha
25. Egapon


4 things really catch my eye here:

1. As we’ve been increasingly postulating, the only super punishing nerf got was the likely accidental one of his shield not covering his body properly anymore and Shuton being able to come out on top despite competition like Zackray, T, Tea, and others being present supports this notion. If they fix his shield Olimar will likely be just fine.

2. continue to outperform in Japan which is a contrast to how their performances in the West. Particularly the US. I wonder what leads to this inversion of performances.

3. For all the debate he’s been drumming there was no present in Top 32 in any shape or form. Not even Zackray whipped him out. A pretty interesting development in the wake of Leo’s recent success. Either Japan’s Joker counterplay is more honed or Leo’s just that ahead of the curve. This could also have been an account of lack of strong Joker dabblers present although a lot of the best Joker gameplay we’ve seen from Japanese smashers has been from ones who are focused on other characters like Tsu or have deep pockets overall like Zackray. Wonder how he’ll perform in the next major there.

4. My favorite to bring up, is a rather impressive Top 12 placing from Tsumusuto, a solo and according to Juddy apparently the best Japanese one from SSB4. I personally feel Dr. Mario is quite underestimated but his results til now have been held up quite heavily by Luis and Locus who both have another character they utilize frequently and with the latter now shifting focus to Ken I was worried Doc’s rep would take a hit so this is quite an encouraging development. I really hope he attends more Japanese majors. still hogs some limelight from him but with even OG Mario not being quite as popular as in SSB4 and Dr. Mario’s underrated buffs, this could be the game for him to finally break out.

Would like to hear others thoughts.

I was a little afraid that Link was falling off the map, as Salem no longer plays him and I haven't seen T in a long time. T second placing here with solo Link is a nice boost for the character.

From the looks of it, we indeed don't really have to worry about Olimar in terms of his players underperforming. After a somewhat sketchy tournament the week after 3.1.0, seems like Shuton is back to form.

As I expected, Japan continues to the home of Toon Link results. This is the second time a different Toon Link player has outplaced Sigma.

The high placing from the doctor is also pretty notable. I wonder if he continues this consistency or not.

Edit: According to the SmashWiki, HIKARU used DK as well.

 

[Rizen]

I will say again, Joker has a ton of ways to mix up his recovery, if you're gimping a Joker often.. well what is his player likely not doing? Mixing up. When he can avoid snapping to the ledge entirely and delay snapping with the tether, go high, etc.. nah he does not have the most linear recovery in the game.. what? Did you forget Mac and friends exist? Seriously, I am not kidding, the amount of people I have completely thwarted edge guard attempts from by simply going low with the tether and delaying the snap.. and that's just ONE mixup.

I will also say again, if you don't outright kill Joker during this RG punish, the interaction was not in your favor, you've just given him Arsene. It's also very MU specific if you can even get the punish off. Also keep in mind while you can potentially counter RG, if the Joker player becomes smarter and more well timed with their usage of the move, your window to get a punish has the potential to shrink to non-existence, counterplay exists on both sides of this equation here.

Joker's hitboxes aren't on-par with most other Swordies, but they aren't small and a F5 BAir in combination with his mobility makes it to where he doesn't have issues getting outspaced by swordies really.. at all? His anti-zoning is very much a thing.

Also how is no-Arsene Joker 'undertuned' exactly? He still has baller combo game / throws, good mixups and landing options, F5 BAir + high mobility is still a thing, he can still absolutely kill you.. like.. what?

Another thing I see said is that timing out Arsene is viable.. how? The best option is to literally beat it out of him, you're talking about a character with top-rate mobility, projectiles, disjointed hitboxes and everything else.. playing keepaway is in no way viable if the character operating Joker is familiar with using him. Running away from Joker w/ Arsene is not comparable to juking out a Cloud with his Limit.

A lot of this is just wrong. If Joker is launched far enough he has no way of doing anything but tethering the ledge which will always travel below the ledge with no hitbox.

This is wrong. RG always has 33f endlag which is enough time for any character to punish a wiff. If you punish the endlag he gets no extra Arsene meter.

Limited hitboxes are an issue. I play characters with this issue; you don't get great option coverage. This is why Lucina is so good; her attacks are huge arcs.

This is a strawman; no one said "timing out Arsene is viable" but if you play defensively you can limit his impact. And it is similar to avoiding Cloud with Limit. You can't completely time Arsene out but can limit interactions.

 

[TimG57867]

My primary thought is "holy character diversity batman." I'm counting...29 unique characters represented in the top 32? That's almost ridiculous.

And a lot of them are pretty uncommon picks too. Aside from the Dr. Mario, and are all present and as solo mains no less.

I was a little afraid that Link was falling off the map, as Salem no longer plays him and I haven't seen T in a long time. T second placing here with solo Link is a nice boost for the character.

From the looks of it, we indeed don't really have to worry about Olimar in terms of his players underperforming. After a somewhat sketchy tournament the week after 3.1.0, seems like Shuton is back to form.

As I expected, Japan continues to the home of Toon Link results. This is the second time a different Toon Link player has outplaced Sigma.

The high placing from the doctor is also pretty notable. I wonder if he continues this consistency or not.

Edit: According to the SmashWiki, HIKARU used DK as well.

It seems Japan Smashers continue to be the leaders of zoner results across the board. The best Samuses, Duck Hunts, Pac Mans, Links, Toon Links, Megamans, Olimars, etc. are all there. (Not that the users for some of them like Olimar in other regions are so far behind).

Still though, I have to say again that considering the great success of there and zoners as a whole, the lack of splashes from there continues to be perplexing. Suinoko to my knowledge is the only solo Young Link that has made notable headway there which is quite a contrast to the US where his representation seems to overshadow his Hylian contemporaries. I wonder what made the U.S click with Young Link while Japan gravitates to the others. His kit does seem to allow him to play more aggressively than the other 2 which could explain greater adoption in the West but even with that his small Japanese presence is quite the oddity. I wonder if Young Link will ever get more traction there. Link and especially Toon Link seem to have the Japanese market cornered.

 

[DunnoBro]

A lot of this is just wrong. If Joker is launched far enough he has no way of doing anything but tethering the ledge which will always travel below the ledge with no hitbox.

Generally the further/downward you're launched, the less options you have. This isn't unique to Joker.

Also Gun stall/air dash/down to cover a high recovery, Eiga, and Rebel's guard give him more options than most while recovering.

To claim he has 'the most linear recovery in the game' when the Belmonts exist with directly inferior everything is... Dubious, to say the least.

I also think the claim non-arsene joker is 'undertuned' is just beyond loaded.

I will also say again, if you don't outright kill Joker during this RG punish, the interaction was not in your favor, you've just given him Arsene. It's also very MU specific if you can even get the punish off. Also keep in mind while you can potentially counter RG, if the Joker player becomes smarter and more well timed with their usage of the move, your window to get a punish has the potential to shrink to non-existence, counterplay exists on both sides of this equation here.
.

When discussing Rebel's Guard, it's important to remember Downward Guns.

To most efficiently punish rebel's guard, you need to have baited/waited for it.
But Downward guns very effectively punishes not committing. Since it either hits you, or locks you in shield.
(Drift away Eiga, or Landing Nair also need to be respected)

33f sounds like a lot, but when taking into consideration the positioning required to deal with both downward guns AND rebel's guard, the most consistent punish is actually often a grab. If you have a fast, large usmash out of dash as an option, that can work too.

Which is why I personally think people shouting 'Just smash attack " simply don't understand Joker's landing options or mixups at all.

Not to mention, it pretty much just lets him escape a lot of edgeguards for free due to just how DEEP he can go. Meaning to effectively edgeguard non-arsene joker, you need to have a way to cover his multiple tether ranges. Which not everyone has. And any failed attempts just give him meter, maybe even reversal you if you used your jump trying to hit him, or give him Arsene to ledge snap > ledge jump > dair your more linearly timed recovery.

 

[Rizen]

Generally the further/downward you're launched, the less options you have. This isn't unique to Joker.

Also Gun stall/air dash/down to cover a high recovery, Eiga, and Rebel's guard give him more options than most while recovering.

To claim he has 'the most linear recovery in the game' when the Belmonts exist with directly inferior everything is... Dubious, to say the least.

I also think the claim non-arsene joker is 'undertuned' is just beyond loaded.



When discussing Rebel's Guard, it's important to remember Downward Guns.

To most efficiently punish rebel's guard, you need to have baited/waited for it.
But Downward guns very effectively punishes not committing. Since it either hits you, or locks you in shield.
(Drift away Eiga, or Landing Nair also need to be respected)

33f sounds like a lot, but when taking into consideration the positioning required to deal with both downward guns AND rebel's guard, the most consistent punish is actually often a grab. If you have a fast, large usmash out of dash as an option, that can work too.

Which is why I personally think people shouting 'Just smash attack " simply don't understand Joker's landing options or mixups at all.

Not to mention, it pretty much just lets him escape a lot of edgeguards for free due to just how DEEP he can go. Meaning to effectively edgeguard non-arsene joker, you need to have a way to cover his multiple tether ranges. Which not everyone has. And any failed attempts just give him meter, maybe even reversal you if you used your jump trying to hit him, or give him Arsene to ledge snap > ledge jump > dair your more linearly timed recovery.

At least the Belmonts have a 2nd recovery option with a hitbox. And I've seen Belmont and Mac brought up as counter arguments. Congrats Joker's better than two of the worst recoveries in the game. Compared to them DK has a good recovery. But I'm "dubious" and "loaded"? Thanks for the ad Hominem. I've seen so much misinformation and wishful thinking. Believe whatever you want. I'm done listening to this topic.

I pointed out the flaws of RG and you moved the goal posts to "he can do this instead". Yeah a great way to not be punished for using a counter is to not use it.

 

[NairWizard]

I play characters with this issue; you don't get great option coverage. This is why Lucina is so good; her attacks are huge arcs.

This is wrong.

There's nothing fundamentally strong about arcing hitboxes. This is obviously true if you think about Shulk from Smash 4--huge arcs, but poor performance. If anything, arcing hitboxes tend to be weaker than most others, because they take longer to finish the animation, and thus they're easier to whiff punish. What makes Lucina good is her disjoint and range; she could do without the arcs and be just as good (maybe better).

When Lucina is swinging f-air, depending on where I am in relation to her, she's often missed me completely and is still swinging, meaning that she's locked into the f-air animation and I can hit her. It's almost as bad as being in freefall--almost because you still cover some of the space around you with a hitbox, but all this does is limit the range of punishes that can be issued.

Arcing hitboxes do cover more options, but only if you're just swinging wildly, hoping to catch your opponent in a range of positions. It's a low- and mid-level safety net, but at the high and top levels, precision hitboxes (such as ZSS') aren't any worse than arcs, and in fact average a better hitrate.

Joker doesn't have bad hitboxes; in fact, I would argue that they are his strongest asset. His grabs, gun mixups, whatever else tend to be overrated, but he's super hard to hit when he's attacking, and that's what matters for his archetype.

I pointed out the flaws of RG and you moved the goal posts to "he can do this instead". Yeah a great way to not be punished for using a counter is to not use it.

What he means is that down-guns and rebel's guard combined cover a lot of options--Rebel's Guard has 33f endlag, but you don't actually have 33f to punish because you have to position yourself in such a way that you can also deal with the downward guns option. This adds ~8-14 frames of time for you to get into position.

You keep arguing with folks, misinterpreting their points, and acting condescending in response. Every time anyone responds to you and doesn't agree with your position you explode and say that you're done with the argument. Why are you reading so much into people's disagreements? I know that you have me on Ignore so you'll never see this, but I'll say it anyway just in case: please man, try to relax--you'll enjoy your personal life more that way too.

 

[DunnoBro]

At least the Belmonts have a 2nd recovery option with a hitbox. And I've seen Belmont and Mac brought up as counter arguments. Congrats Joker's better than two of the worst recoveries in the game. Compared to them DK has a good recovery. But I'm "dubious" and "loaded"? Thanks for the ad Hominem. I've seen so much misinformation and wishful thinking. Believe whatever you want. I'm done listening to this topic.

I pointed out the flaws of RG and you moved the goal posts to "he can do this instead". Yeah a great way to not be punished for using a counter is to not use it.

I'm not sure why you seem to be taking my disagreement so personally. I'll admit I'm rather socially inept, but please understand my labels of 'dubious' and 'loaded' were purely objective and not meant as digs at you.

But I simply compared to mac/belmonts to determine a baseline. I personally believe his recovery hovers around average/above average (largely due to his ability to recover high and opt out of certain edgeguarding flowcharts) But this is less obviously observable. And would be better proven just over time rather than me theorycrafting/clip catching.

And I actually didn't respond to your comment of RG at all. I was just highlighting the environment in which the move exists, which demands more consideration than just raw frame data.

 

[Aaron1997]

3.1.0
俺のキャラランクは全て正しい pic.twitter.com/z5ibNyJ2pM

— Tsu (@tkmtbs) June 22, 2019

Tsu's tier list still lines with a lot of the Japanese trends that a lot of tier list of there have

1. is overated
2. is busted

These are the 2 I've noticed so far.

Some other interesting one's..

1.and top 5
2. top 20 and lines up with Tea's Opinions
3. ranked very low
4. All 3 links are within 6 spots of each other
5. is very high. Likely influenced by Brood and Rai, 2 of the best Plants right now.
6. Wow im surprised at those placements with YB, Prame and other running around
7. is 3 tier's below Lucina
8. Worst in the game again