Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[blackghost]

Oh.. oh ****. I've been taking the term 'burst options' the wrong way for literally years.. Welp.

In my head I always imagined it was related to being able to output a ton of damage in bursts.

you're close thats just burst damage vs burst movement.

 

[Courageous Baka]

Hey so which characters do you all think are overrated/underrated?

 

[Nah]

Hey so which characters do you all think are overrated/underrated?

go to the previous page and you'll see a bunch of that

 

[Rizen]

I think a lot of Wolf's options are good but better on him because his kit works together so well. He has a fastish f4 jab, decent speed tilts, slow smashes and a f10 iirc DA. All of it is well rounded and his option coverage is good. He has Fair/Uair to juggle, Dair to spike and Bair to kill. A reflector and a blaster. No useless moves sans maybe Dtilt.

 

[Tri Knight]

Out of all the tier lists you've seen, who's do you think is the most/ least accurate?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Out of all the tier lists you've seen, who's do you think is the most/ least accurate?

I think I've already said this in a longer rant but I'd be really careful about ESAM's tierlist or at least his explanations.

 

[SwagGuy99]

3.1.0
俺のキャラランクは全て正しい pic.twitter.com/z5ibNyJ2pM

— Tsu (@tkmtbs) June 22, 2019

Tsu's tier list still lines with a lot of the Japanese trends that a lot of tier list of there have

1. is overated
2. is busted

These are the 2 I've noticed so far.

Some other interesting one's..

1.and top 5
2. top 20 and lines up with Tea's Opinions
3. ranked very low
4. All 3 links are within 6 spots of each other
5. is very high. Likely influenced by Brood and Rai, 2 of the best Plants right now.
6. Wow im surprised at those placements with YB, Prame and other running around
7. is 3 tier's below Lucina
8. Worst in the game again

I'd also likes to add that Luigi is the best of Mario, Dr. Mario, and himself. Normally he seems to be considered the worst of the three.

Isabelle is also way higher than I'd think she would be. She's not even in the same tier as Puff, Kirby, and K. Rool. I'm sorry but no.

Also, Robin is probably too high as well.

 

[DelugeFGC]

As controversial as the ESAM tier list was, I have to say M2K's tilted me the most.

Beyond choices like putting Cloud into low tier and other such things, he gave little to no explanation for some of his reasoning, often times saying 'idk, need more results'. It's one thing if you don't want to rank a character too high, but when you bottom them out on the tier list as if saying they're bad I would at least like SOME level of reasoning beyond 'idk' which is the vibe a lot of his tier list placements had.. primarily in low / mid tier.

Opinions are opinions, all tier lists are basically guesses atm.. but I dislike it when people don't give real reasoning behind why they put characters where they did, M2K was very guilty of that in his latest 3.1.0 tier list.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Underrated:

Overrated: (solo) (post 3.1.0)

 

[Frihetsanka]

Underrated:

Overrated: (solo) (post 3.1.0)

Why do you think Inkling is overrated? Which MUs do you think she loses?

 

[PK Gaming]

Snake seems very good at first glance, but when you study his MU spread it makes me question whether he's a top 10 character. He's still pretty good and shouldn't be slept on, but his overall MU spread seems worse than many other characters' MU spreads.

What do you mean by this?

Not trying to be confrontational, but I think you should elaborate on Snake's "MU spread" issues.

 

[bc1910]

And is only 25th there.

Pikachu kind of has the opposite problem to Ness in terms of results; his showing is poor at local levels and somewhat lacklustre on a regional level but at top level he has great reps like ESAM and Captain L who consistently place very highly with him at big tournaments. He's clearly a strong character at top level and his theory is also very strong given his excellent MU spread. He does get a bit of a free pass given his weak overall results though.

Pichu splitting the thunder rat player base doesn't help either. I'm sure that at least a few Pichu players would be playing Pikachu if Pichu wasn't in the game, giving him a boost to his overall results.

I think a lot of Wolf's options are good but better on him because his kit works together so well. He has a fastish f4 jab, decent speed tilts, slow smashes and a f10 iirc DA. All of it is well rounded and his option coverage is good. He has Fair/Uair to juggle, Dair to spike and Bair to kill. A reflector and a blaster. No useless moves sans maybe Dtilt.

Dtilt was good as a pseudo jab, it comes out f5 and was Wolf's fastest functional ground move. Now that Wolf's jab actually works though, Dtilt is probably his least useful move. Still, it has some niche applications. It's Wolf's fastest option to hit low profiling characters like a dashing Inkling or crouching Snake. This can be important since characters with the capability of low profiling Blaster like to do so frequently. Also, some of Wolf's ground moves such as dash attack and dash grab are annoyingly inconsistent at hitting low to the ground. Dtilt can also 2 frame if you aren't confident of hitting a Dsmash for whatever reason, or if you think you might mistime the Dsmash and get punished.

Out of all the tier lists you've seen, who's do you think is the most/ least accurate?

Dabuz's was the worst for me. I feel some characters were overrated (Chrom, Shulk and Ken in top tier) and underrated (Greninja, ROB, PT and Mega Man were all weirdly low) with results going against the placements. I can at least understand the enthusiasm with Ken's placement given his buffs are pretty recent, and I respect the fact that Dabuz provides full explanations for his opinions even if I don't agree with all of them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Dabuz respects the **** outta Ken for whatever reason.

Man literally flipped his chips when someone in his chat said Ken had no results.

"HOW CAN HE HAVE RESULTS WHEN THE PATCH HAS ONLY BEEN OUT TWO WEEKS?!?!"

Thought I saw yellow hair and green eyes for a second.

Imagine Frieza trying to blast Goku with the subtitles, "Ken has no results." Then impose Dabuz's face on SSJ Goku shouting "YOU FOOOOOOOOOOL!!!", as he shoots a monstrous energy beam. Then Frieza gets wtf owned.

Literally what happened.

 

[Rizen]

I think Dabuz respects the **** outta Ken for whatever reason.

Man literally flipped his chips when someone in his chat said Ken had no results.

"HOW CAN HE HAVE RESULTS WHEN THE PATCH HAS ONLY BEEN OUT TWO WEEKS?!?!"

Thought I saw yellow hair and green eyes for a second.

Imagine Frieza trying to blast Goku with the subtitles, "Ken has no results." Then impose Dabuz's face on SSJ Goku shouting "YOU FOOOOOOOOOOL!!!", as he shoots a monstrous energy beam. Then Frieza gets wtf owned.

Literally what happened.

Would you still say Ken's better than Ryu?

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Can we talk about Ice Climbers ? I keep seeing them put in low tier, but I think that's only because no one is playing them.

Here's a list of reasons why I think they're AT LEAST upper mid tier:
-True combos to death at low percents
-Unblockable combos with desync
-Blizzard eats most projectiles and with desync there is no cooldown
-Massive damage output even without desync
-True infinites on certain characters
-Can both cover ledge and trump ledge at same time
-Can attack and grab at same time
-Using Blizzard is untouchable if camping under battlefield platforms
-Diverse recovery
-Nana AI isn't complete garbage in this game, making it hard to 'just attack Nana'

I could go on, but I think ICs are completely underrated.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No point in rating IC's imo.

Nintendo keeps trying to take away unintended stuff.

Let's see where they are when patches end.

 

[Sean²]

-Nana AI isn't complete garbage in this game, making it hard to 'just attack Nana'

You don't need to attack Nana because she'll just straight up kill herself for no reason half the time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Going to have to agree with Emblem Lord: pretty clear Nintendo will actively prevent any desyncs whenever possible, which in turn kills the Ice Climbers. And Nana's AI is potentially the worst its ever been compared to previous games.

Borderline doesn't matter how good they are during any one particular timeframe between patches: its almost guaranteed Nintendo will sentence them to low tier.

 

[Rizen]

Can we talk about Ice Climbers ? I keep seeing them put in low tier, but I think that's only because no one is playing them.

Here's a list of reasons why I think they're AT LEAST upper mid tier:
-True combos to death at low percents
-Unblockable combos with desync
-Blizzard eats most projectiles and with desync there is no cooldown
-Massive damage output even without desync
-True infinites on certain characters
-Can both cover ledge and trump ledge at same time
-Can attack and grab at same time
-Using Blizzard is untouchable if camping under battlefield platforms
-Diverse recovery
-Nana AI isn't complete garbage in this game, making it hard to 'just attack Nana'

I could go on, but I think ICs are completely underrated.

I know Big D's ICs have been putting in work so there's something to them. The main thing I got from fighting them is they have little room to be punished. Nana goes after Popo than Popo's ready to attack again. They have some issues but also solid offense. I can see them falling somewhere in mid tier.

 

[blackghost]

if shulk can run under the banner of "potential" for almost his entire existence, ken can get at least a few months before we judge. personally i think ken is high tier minimum but he will always have a tiny player base because smashers dont like inputs and he's hard. but his combo game is among the top 5 best in the game, his offensive abilities are absolutely scary.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I don't see this character very often but one of the Bowser Jr. players who is getting votes from Canada to go to GLITCH on Twitter is Slime. I'm on the bandwagon now too lol.

Slime got 2nd at a local in London ON (the other London) just this past week, including a win over Advo from Michigan. I had no idea that mecha koopas could tank a full charge shot until this:

 

[SwagGuy99]

Why do you think Inkling is overrated? Which MUs do you think she loses?

Bowser, most Swordies (Ike, Lucina, maybe Marth, Roy, Chrom, maybe Link), maybe Pikachu/Pichu, Snake, maybe Wario, Peach, Olimar.

 

[NotLiquid]

Bowser, most Swordies (Ike, Lucina, maybe Marth, Roy, Chrom, maybe Link), maybe Pikachu/Pichu, Snake, maybe Wario, Peach, Olimar.

Inkling absolutely does not lose against Snake or Ike, and in general, her MU spread against swordies mostly leans even.

The only MU listed here that I'd go so far as to say is an outright net loss is Olimar, and even then that's a character that was nerfed in some very non-insignificant ways that I'd say it's a -1 at worst. Most of her problem MUs are high tier sharks like ROB and Yoshi.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Inkling absolutely does not lose against Snake or Ike, and in general, her MU spread against swordies mostly leans even.

The only MU listed here that I'd go so far as to say is an outright net loss is Olimar, and even then that's a character that was nerfed in some very non-insignificant ways that I'd say it's a -1 at worst. Most of her problem MUs are high tier sharks like ROB and Yoshi.

Lol I was gonna say how the heck does she lose against Bowser... she can keep him out while building damage and she has pretty guaranteed setups to KO him, even the U-throw -> U-air has a larger range on him where it's guaranteed than most characters

 

[The_Bookworm]

Lol I was gonna say how the heck does she lose against Bowser... she can keep him out while building damage and she has pretty guaranteed setups to KO him, even the U-throw -> U-air has a larger range on him where it's guaranteed than most characters

I think the assumption that Inkling loses to Bowser came from how badly LeoN destroyed Cosmos in Smash'N'Splash 5.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think the assumption that Inkling loses to Bowser came from how badly LeoN destroyed Cosmos in Smash'N'Splash 5.

I think that set was more of an example volatile nature and suprise power factor of most Superheavies in this game. Sometimes they can just utterly wreck people who are unprepared or gets careless vs them
Also how Nario manged to reverse 3-0 Light's fox with Gannondorf that one time. However aside from that I do think Bowser has cemeted himself as the best Superheavy right now and is a bit slept on

 

[$.A.F.]

Plus one of her best damage racking tools is invalidated

 

[SwagGuy99]

Lol I was gonna say how the heck does she lose against Bowser... she can keep him out while building damage and she has pretty guaranteed setups to KO him, even the U-throw -> U-air has a larger range on him where it's guaranteed than most characters

The reason I believe that is a few reasons. Yes, Inkling can combo him easily, but he can tough guy through jab which is one of Inklings main move and he survives so long against Inkling, especially without Ink. Maybe the matchup is closer to even but it's not really bad for Bowser.

 

[Repli.Cant]

I had no idea that mecha koopas could tank a full charge shot

Mechakoopa has it's own hurtbox, so it can tanks all sorts of things, even a max Aura fully charged Aura Sphere and stop it in it's tracks. One of the many applications of the moves that makes it really good!

 

[NotLiquid]

The reason I believe that is a few reasons. Yes, Inkling can combo him easily, but he can tough guy through jab which is one of Inklings main move and he survives so long against Inkling, especially without Ink. Maybe the matchup is closer to even but it's not really bad for Bowser.

I will say, I think I've mentioned this before but Inkling is definitely in a sort of unique spot where, despite her archetype and how Smash advantage usually operates, she's one of the "speedy bruiser" type characters that has very few superheavy MUs in the game that are an outright stomp in her favor, so while I don't think she loses the Bowser MU, it is one of the few frustrating MUs given that Inkling isn't exactly allowed to go full throttle. Inkling has an advantage in that she's still incredibly good at playing lame (as well as splat bombs/splattershot sort of remedying the issue of rapid jab's ineffectivity - tough guy doesn't block splattershot), and as long as her ledgetrapping and off-stage game is as good as it is, most of the heavies with bad off-stage game are still defeatable - but it's pretty hard to reign yourself in when most of Inkling's reward is from playing explosively. It's funny then, that Inkling is one of the few characters who doesn't really care about how much a character like Snake changes the playing field, whereas simpler characters like Bowser and DDD very much have the inverse intended effect on her.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think that set was more of an example volatile nature and suprise power factor of most Superheavies in this game. Sometimes they can just utterly wreck people who are unprepared or lets their guard down.
Also how Nario manged to reverse 3-0 Light's fox with Gannondorf that one time. However aside from that I do think Bowser has cemeted himself as the best Superheavy right now and is a bit slept on

Yep. I've said it several times before, but pretty much every superheavy's matchup spread comes with a footnote that says "don't **** it up or you lose anyway because yes, they hit that hard." Autopiloting is dangerous against them.

 

[|RK|]

I think that set was more of an example volatile nature and suprise power factor of most Superheavies in this game. Sometimes they can just utterly wreck people who are unprepared or lets their guard down.
Also how Nario manged to reverse 3-0 Light's fox with Gannondorf that one time. However aside from that I do think Bowser has cemeted himself as the best Superheavy right now and is a bit slept on

Eh, if there's any top tier that seems to struggle with heavies, it's def Inkling. I remember Armada having a lot of trouble practicing with a D3, and noting that Cosmos called the MU "annoying."

She feels like the post-patch Sheik of this game - very good, but most prone to get bodied by a heavy.

If you want to never worry about a heavy, you grab a Palutena or something.

 

[Y2Kay]

I’m gonna wait until people stop jumping into Ken’s up tilts before I decide how good he is.

But the fact that he only needs at MAX three jump ins to take a stock is too strong to ignore, even if his mid range pressure is (imo too) bad in this game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Falco up B apparently has more offensive, albeit somewhat situational, uses for lots of damage. If only it has actual recovering abilities...

 

[Rizen]

Falco up B apparently has more offensive, albeit somewhat situational, uses for lots of damage. If only it has actual recovering abilities...

Too bad it's 20f on startup.

 

[DelugeFGC]

20f startup doesn't really seem like an issue in a combo / setup..?

Unless you mean outside of that, then yeah, but Fire Bird is a pretty established 'meh' recovery and neutral tool outside of the stuff in this video.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Superheavies are super scary.
Especially Bowser with rage and you can't get the kill. Probably the most dangerous heavy because of his insane command grab plus his speed. Something that lets you play a bit more defensive when Bowser lives longer than he should. But that's nothing new to us, hopefully.
But characters with good knockback on their aerials get the job mostly done. Peach, Zelda (you actually get the sweetbox on her aerials nearly everytime), all swordies are pretty much a nightmare for all superheavies but Bowser should be able to deal with them the best, also because of a rather decent recovery that nearly all superheavies lack.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Superheavies are super scary.
Especially Bowser with rage and you can't get the kill. Probably the most dangerous heavy because of his insane command grab plus his speed. Something that lets you play a bit more defensive when Bowser lives longer than he should. But that's nothing new to us, hopefully.
But characters with good knockback on their aerials get the job mostly done. Peach, Zelda (you actually get the sweetbox on her aerials nearly everytime), all swordies are pretty much a nightmare for all superheavies but Bowser should be able to deal with them the best, also because of a rather decent recovery that nearly all superheavies lack.

I think and even beat out Bowser in the recovery department for superheavies. His recovery is at least a notch above and is less likely to tragically lose stocks below 100% from an gettinflg edgeguarded or gimped than those 3

 

[Rizen]

20f startup doesn't really seem like an issue in a combo / setup..?

Unless you mean outside of that, then yeah, but Fire Bird is a pretty established 'meh' recovery and neutral tool outside of the stuff in this video.

That's the issue there are a lot fewer combos that work with a 20f move. Take YL's DTilt for example, it combos into his f4 Nair for a long time but you have to build %s a lot higher before you get the frame advantage to combo into his Dair/Fair which are F 13/14. Falco might have some footstool combos, maybe, but probably can't Utilt>UpB.

 

[DelugeFGC]

That's the issue there are a lot fewer combos that work with a 20f move. Take YL's DTilt for example, it combos into his f4 Nair for a long time but you have to build %s a lot higher before you get the frame advantage to combo into his Dair/Fair which are F 13/14. Falco might have some footstool combos, maybe, but probably can't Utilt>UpB.

Oh hell no, there's no way I can see Up-B being true out of an UTilt at any %.