Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lacrimosa]

Didn't know this hitbox existed at all:

Dtilit can lead into uptilit if you connect with the middle hitbox, also fsmash is a great way to catch your opponent’s landing aerials if they try to aggressively escape strings#SSBU_Zelda pic.twitter.com/2OVrtr1ICw

— JP53 (@_JP53) June 21, 2019

Dunno how useful this is and how reliable this is (like I said, I wasn't aware of that hitbox) but this shows that her dTilt can be actually useful.

I love when meta develops. That's when such things are found.

 

[Lavani]

Please keep in mind when referencing Joker's OrionStats rank that it's a cumulative rank across Ultimate's lifespan. Joker being at #23 may mean there's 22 characters above him, but it also means that he accomplished more in 2 months than Young Link, Pikachu, etc. did in 7.

The character's performance has been incredible so far and the fact that he is where he is already puts him on a trajectory for the top.

 

[Nekoo]

Please keep in mind when referencing Joker's OrionStats rank that it's a cumulative rank across Ultimate's lifespan. Joker being at #23 may mean there's 22 characters above him, but it also means that he accomplished more in 2 months than Young Link, Pikachu, etc. did in 7.

The character's performance has been incredible so far and the fact that he is where he is already puts him on a trajectory for the top.

Where's the button to remind people that probably most of his big win were from MKLeo who probably carry the Character's rep by himself as a Solo main rather than Pick that get thrown there and there as a counterpick in one game or two?

 

[DelugeFGC]

If you want to argue against Joker being in top tier, that's fine, but can we please stop with this 'lel it's just because of Leo' counter argument nonsense? It's almost a meme at this point and it's not really adding anything to the discussion.

 

[Nekoo]

If you want to argue against Joker being in top tier, that's fine, but can we please stop with this 'lel it's just because of Leo' counter argument nonsense? It's almost a meme at this point and it's not really adding anything to the discussion.

I'm not Arguing against Joker being a Top Tiers.

I'm Arguing against people ringing the bell as if it was the second calling of Bayonetta/Cloud, or people over-expressing his strenght when really, most of his big result is from a single player, said player being without any doubt, the best in the world right now.

Remember "Ike is Top-tiers"? When MKLeo played him?

That's exactly what happens, once again.

Joker is good, without a doubt, With Arsene, Probably one of the best character in the Game. But people REALLY exagerate his strenght and under-use his weakness when no one even come Close to Leo for Result or Joker level. It's too early to say anything, whenever Joker is busted, or if Leo is the one carrying the character.

 

[DunnoBro]

Remember "Ike is Top-tiers"? When MKLeo played him?

That's exactly what happens, once again.

That was at the very beginning of the game, for a much shorter period of time.

It's not the same at all.

 

[DelugeFGC]

People were also predicting Ike would fall off even during the time when he was doing well, he had clear and demonstrable weaknesses that went above 'in theory' shots at him.

Just saying. Ike's 'top tier hype' was very short lived, had many skeptical of it during the period when it was occurring and it as DunnoBro stated was at the beginning of the meta.

Joker has some skeptical of him, but not nearly to the same extent.

 

[Nekoo]

That was at the very beginning of the game, for a much shorter period of time.

It's not the same at all.

It's exactly the same.
Joker has been out for barely 2.5 Month, one player is doing godlike with him, and it's usually the only full Joker solo per top 8, even top 32 in most cases.
We're still "barely" at the very beginning of the game, especially for a fighting game that will last for years, and AT THE VERY LEAST 4more patch to come with each DLC.

Way to early to claim anything before we get Heavy CEO result and EVO results.

 

[DelugeFGC]

It didn't take Ike nearly 3 months to fall off.

"Exactly the same" doesn't work, period. It's outright false.

 

[Rizen]

Please keep in mind when referencing Joker's OrionStats rank that it's a cumulative rank across Ultimate's lifespan. Joker being at #23 may mean there's 22 characters above him, but it also means that he accomplished more in 2 months than Young Link, Pikachu, etc. did in 7.

The character's performance has been incredible so far and the fact that he is where he is already puts him on a trajectory for the top.

Have you spoken to the people who make the Orion stats about this? I thought it was weighted so Joker was measured evenly with the others. I really don't know.

 

[VenomSnake]

I find it kind of funny how people are trying to use MKLeo as the reason why Joker seems so amazing when even he himself thinks that Joker is a top tier. Remember how he said he thought both ike and Lucina were going to fall off, and they really weren't that good? It happened for Ike and it sorta happened for Lucina, but MKLeo explicitly stated he felt Joker was broken when he started practicing with him (https://mobile.twitter.com/mkleosb/status/1123803123418587136?lang=en).
IIRC MKLeo still feels Joker is very strong.

Personally, I think the rate of Arsene gain and Jokers counter are both a little overtuned (f3 startup is the quickest counter in the game right?), but I've never dealt with the character outside of wifi so I dont have any experience to speak of.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Evidently any time a player uses a character that isn't super represented (most top players who use Joker don't even main him, I don't even know of any solo Joker mains, he's a character mostly kept in people's pocket higher up or as a secondary) and they get good results with them, that's 100% discounted because x player has y amount of skill and therefore it nulls any arguments toward the character being good.

Some of these arguments really do just add literally nothing to the discussion, chiming in just to be a contrarian and then proceeding to add literally nothing to to the table isn't doing a thing for anyone. It also doesn't add anything to just yeet yourself from the discussion when someone disagrees with you. I'm saying that as a person who has done it myself in the past, and I was 100% being a knob when I did that.

Healthy discussion is beneficial to everyone, this is not really healthy discussion at this point.

 

[Rizen]

I find it kind of funny how people are trying to use MKLeo as the reason why Joker seems so amazing when even he himself thinks that Joker is a top tier. Remember how he said he thought both ike and Lucina were going to fall off, and they really weren't that good? It happened for Ike and it sorta happened for Lucina, but MKLeo explicitly stated he felt Joker was broken when he started practicing with him (https://mobile.twitter.com/mkleosb/status/1123803123418587136?lang=en).
IIRC MKLeo still feels Joker is very strong.

Personally, I think the rate of Arsene gain and Jokers counter are both a little overtuned (f3 startup is the quickest counter in the game right?), but I've never dealt with the character outside of wifi so I dont have any experience to speak of.

Leo also thought Link was top 5 and a tier above Snake iirc.

And I'm not trying to say Leo has invalid opinions but rather it's hard to predict all the character interactions. Even top player tier lists have little value imo. This is why I try to stick to talking about MUs.

 

[DunnoBro]

It's exactly the same.
Joker has been out for barely 2.5 Month, one player is doing godlike with him, and it's usually the only full Joker solo per top 8, even top 32 in most cases.
We're still "barely" at the very beginning of the game, especially for a fighting game that will last for years, and AT THE VERY LEAST 4more patch to come with each DLC.

Way to early to claim anything before we get Heavy CEO result and EVO results.

Nah. "Exactly the same" is a gross oversimplification and dismissal of how the meta has developed, Joker's superior and more consistent success over a longer time period in said environment, and of course the far more complex and potential-stuffed kit within Joker himself compared to Ike's unga boonga routine.

You want to deny Joker's top tier? That's fine, I'm not invested into that argument. But I think you'd go further with it were you to provide better insight than memes such as "It's just MKleo."

 

[DelugeFGC]

Nah. "Exactly the same" is a gross oversimplification and dismissal of how the meta has developed, Joker's superior and more consistent success over a longer time period in said environment, and of course the far more complex and potential-stuffed kit within Joker himself compared to Ike's unga boonga routine.

You want to deny Joker's top tier? That's fine, I'm not invested into that argument. But I'm afraid you'll need to provide better insight than memes such as "It's just MKleo."

Give me a 'love' button instead of a like button for this post, please.

Seriously, it's all well and good if you want to argue Joker not being top tier, but memeing with the Leo thing or yeeting yourself from the discussion when people disagree with you.. that contributes nothing.

 

[Rizen]

Evidently 's still pulling results. First Myran now Shuton. The shield poke thing is big but he has a lot of top tier qualities. I wonder if Debuz will pick him back up.

 

[Tri Knight]

I was a little afraid that Link was falling off the map, as Salem no longer plays him and I haven't seen T in a long time. T second placing here with solo Link is a nice boost for the character.

I didn't know Salem quit Link. Been out of the loop for a while. Idk, I still find Link to be better than Young Link overall but I can see why most people gather around Young Link around here. Much better combo potential, faster, better zoning... all qualities that we worship here. Just hate how easy he is to kill and how hard it is to kill with him. I wonder if Japan has a different mindset when it comes to meta.

Surprised Toon Link is getting a lot of traction tbh.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I can no longer realistically say Link is better than Young Link when a lot of YL's 'kill problems' and such aren't really an issue at all. The character has kill confirms and combo setups literally into imagination, and while he doesn't have anything amazing to just land an easy stray hit and take a stock with.. he has an entire arsenal of stuff to make sure a kill setup presents itself sooner or later. DTilt, Fire Arrows, Boomerangs, Bombs, FAir1, Falling UAir.. Combined with his speed and at times wacky damage output, I think he kind of just outdoes Link in every category that matters.

Link still has him beat in areas like trapping, hard-zoning / space control due to the remote bomb, he's slightly better OoS due to his grab and has more range / kill power.. but an optimized YL in the right hands is a thing to fear far more than an optimized Link imo. YL has a lot of scary options and in some MU's can be extremely overwhelming.

YL's biggest downside is that the MU's he loses he.. loses. But I'd still say he's the best of the 3 Links, easily.

 

[Condenir]

Who do you guys think are the top few “overrated” characters and “underrated” character?

At least for me I think that Zelda and Rosa are two of the most underrated characters

 

[DelugeFGC]

Overrated: (sort of)

Underrated:

Those are just my personal ones, though. I think Shulk is overrated for obvious 'Shulk is top tier' memeing, I think Wolf is overrated (but still a strong High Tier+ / A Tier character overall) for reasons I've went into and I think Fox is overrated because I see many put him in top tier despite his weaknesses being very present and exploitable in comparison some other 'obvious' top tier picks. Still believe Fox is the king of High Tier +, though. The best spacie.

I think Wii Fit is underrated because at the end of the day she's a character with mixups for days and can essentially 0-death you if she gets a 2-3 hit combo post-inhale into the right read. Her damage output with inhale is literally Ganon-tier, and overall she's just a very slippery character in terms of playing her.. it's hard to explain. Could be partly based in MU inexperience, but I think this character is at least High Tier - toward the lower end. I think Lucario is underrated because despite his buffs doing wonders for him, nobody is really discussing him much. I've thought Falco was underrated for ages, but I still think he's the obvious choice for worst spacie and has definite flaws.

 

[$.A.F.]

Overrated:
Underrated:

I can go semi in depth for each

 

[Frihetsanka]

Who do you guys think are the top few “overrated” characters and “underrated” character?

Overrated: Lucina, Wolf, Joker, Snake, Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Pokémon Trainer, Ness, Ganondorf. Underrated: Pikachu, Inkling, Shulk, Palutena, Greninja, Mario, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Duck Hunt.

Lucina and Wolf are good, sure, but there are better characters in top tier, and I don't think either are top 5 right now (although I suppose it's not impossible that one of them is at the bottom of top 5, although it seems more likely other characters are). With the Olimar nerfs, Pikachu now has very few (if any) MUs he truly fears, while having an overall really, really, really solid MU spread (arguably the best in the game). Pikachu does well against every top tier and only potentially loses to some fairly uncommon characters (if he loses at all, it's fairly likely he has no losing matchups).

Inkling is in a similar case as Pikachu, although her MU spread isn't quite as good. Still, this character is really solid and

As for Shulk, he's arguably one of the strongest anti-top tier character in this meta, potentially beating Fox, Joker, Lucina, Peach/Daisy, and Wolf. He's not without flaws but many seem to think he's not even top tier, and I do think he is. He's hard to play though and not many people seem to enjoy his playstyle, so we might not see many Shulk players at majors.

Palutena's MU spread is really solid, she's arguably one of the best characters against low tiers and mid tiers. Her top tier MU spread isn't as good as Pikachu's, Inkling's, or Shulk's, however, not really beating any top tiers (as far as I know, mostly going even and potentially losing to Inkling and Pikachu). Still a very strong character.

Greninja seems like an overall balanced character with a good MU spread and some very good top tier MU (like the Lucina MU). Many don't seem to consider Greninja top tier but I think Greninja should be considered top tier.

Mario is overall very solid, contender for top 15. Mr Game & Watch probably isn't high tier but his MU spread vs top tiers is surprisingly not too shabby, making him a decent high-mid tier character. Same with Lucas, probably better than people give him credit for. Oh, and same with Duck Hunt (Reddit put him in Low-Mid while he probably should've been in High-Mid).

As for the remaining overrated characters: I don't think Joker is a top 3 character. I could be wrong, his meta isn't fully developed yet, but people saying he's the best character in the game? I'm skeptical, for the time being.

Snake seems very good at first glance, but when you study his MU spread it makes me question whether he's a top 10 character. He's still pretty good and shouldn't be slept on, but his overall MU spread seems worse than many other characters' MU spreads.

Wario got hyped because of Tweek and Glutonny, but his MU spread isn't actually that great, he might not be top 15 character.

Zero Suit Samus appears to have some rather troubling matchups that should prevent her from being a top tier threat. Unless things changes I don't think she's going to be a consistent character, her matchups against Inkling and Pikachu seem to be rather unfortunate for her, and she might be losing to some other top tiers as well.

Pokémon Trainer is popular, but her MU spread doesn't seem that great. Solid enough but might be a tad overrated.

I'm not sure if Ness is even a top 30 character, much less a top 20 character, the character isn't terrible and is certainly better than in Smash 4, but there are many characters competing for that spot. He's probably going to remain in high-mid tier rather than high tier.

Just because Ganondorf is better than in Smash 4 doesn't mean he's not a bottom 10 character. He probably is, his flaws are great and he loses pretty hard to several top tiers. He's not utter garbage but still low tier.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Overrated: Lucina, Wolf, Joker, Snake, Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Pokémon Trainer, Ness, Ganondorf. Underrated: Pikachu, Inkling, Shulk, Palutena, Greninja, Mario, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Duck Hunt.

Edit: Reasonings incoming

How underated can the likes of Inkling, Palutena and Greninja possibly be when they are already considered top 10 by nearly everyone?

 

[Frihetsanka]

How underated can the likes of Inkling, Palutena and Greninja possibly be when they are already considered top 10 by nearly everyone?

I've shared some of my reasoning above, but as for Inkling and Palutena, I think they're both top 5 characters. Greninja could be as well, but either way I've seen many people put Greninja outside of top 10, so I do think Greninja is somewhat underrated by many.

 

[blackghost]

Who do you guys think are the top few “overrated” characters and “underrated” character?

At least for me I think that Zelda and Rosa are two of the most underrated characters

overrated: shulk reasoning time's up i need to see something of substance if your best mains can't deliver the character deserves the label of overrated.
overated: pkm trainer. reasoning: when the game launched people said "the character is flexible and can adapt to any mu." reality: use ivysaur the other two are lacking in various ways. zard is unplayable against certain characters at high level.

underrated: ken. people still dont know how scary this character is. the fact tu placed ken next to ryu is very telling.
underrated duck hunt this is just based on raito's gameplay for me.

somewhat perfectly rated: palutena.

still questioning: inkling, greninja, wario,

 

[DelugeFGC]

Bit late, but also think are underrated.

: This is a character with definite, solid problems like landing and being a big-body that weighs very little. That said, this character has an insane damage output, pretty rewarding combos, Shadow Ball is insane, stare is a deadly mixup when least expected, BAir and FAir can be extremely oppressive edge guard tools, he has kills confirms such as tipper UTilt into USmash that are pretty solid, his recovery while one of the weaker teleports is still overall a ton better than what other characters have and is a good disadvantage tool.. overall I think the Shadow Cat is one of the more slept on characters in this game, still would put him in High Tier - / B Tier, though.

: I've went over the reasons why I think this character has a lot of good in previous posts, but to condense things.. He has very high damage output, momentum in a match does wonders for him, the Pills are a wonderful projectile that can confirm into aerials at higher %'s, Super Sheet is just great, Dr. Tornado > FLUDD any day of the week, his OoS is great, he has Mario's frame data packed into a powerful package.. overall a very solid character. Still don't see him breaking out of mid tier with his tragic recovery and poor mobility, though.

: Incineroar is complicated. On one hand, in some of his losing MU's he just looks.. bad. Though the rest of the time (against most of the roster, too) he has a lot going for him and is a beast in his better MU's. Darkest Lariat is an extremely useful tool in a variety of situations due to the armor it has and options it can cover, Alohan Whip is good for obvious reasons, Revenge is fantastic because it discourages camping and can set him up to get cheesy kills at stupid %'s if he gets the right reads with it as it has very good frame data for a counter. His air game is pretty sick. His recovery is not terrible, it's pretty linear and by no means the best, but with a double jump, Side B and Up B all to assist in getting back (with Up-B being hard to contest and a potential kill move, too) I don't see how people put this character down into the bottom tier recovery bin with the likes of the Belmonts and Mac. He has pretty decent combos, very good kill power, great mixups.. really just a lot of good. Though his tragic speed is the #1 thing holding him back, if he weren't the slowest character in the game Incineroar would be a monster and an obvious pick for best superheavy. I still think as-is he's slept on, though.

 

[Cheryl~]

Who do you guys think are the top few “overrated” characters and “underrated” character?

At least for me I think that Zelda and Rosa are two of the most underrated characters

Overrated:
Underrated:

As for the overrated characters, these three are just characters I see touted a bit too high on most tier lists, although the opinion on Ganondorf and Ridley has fallen down quite a bit from the beginning of the game when Ganon was frequently seen in high tier and Ridley was usually at the higher end of mid-tier. There's still a few saying that Ganon's crazy damage output and comeback potential boost him into the upper echelons but it's becoming way, way harder for him to pull that off with more people adapting to the matchup and exploiting his trash-tier disadvantage and recovery. Same for Ridley, a lot of people say he has potential with his good advantage state but to me his disadvantage shines through a lot more and compared to other heavies Ridley has a harder time killing unless he gets a solid read or edgeguard. Both of them are on the low end of mid-tier to me. As for Shulk, I actually think he's solidly in the Top 15-20 and could rise, but he is most definitely not a Top 5 character when he isn't exactly dominating most tournaments and a lot of his crazy tech hasn't actually been inputted into real play. (Of course, fundamentals > tech any day of the week, as shown by the retreating F-Air meme on Twitter.)

For the underrated ones, I still think Lucario is a high mid-tier at best due to how he can be exploited very hard with his recovery and poor OoS options, as well as still losing hard to most sword characters. (Roy/Chrom versus Lucario is not a pretty matchup with how easily Lucario gets rushed down and outranged, you really have to outplay the opponent with Aura in order to win that one.) However, his buffs are still pretty notable and he has great players representing him in the form of Tsu, Jeda, and ANTI who's been picking the character back up as of late. Wii Fit I used to have some doubts on how good she was despite having plenty of time facing her with a friend who mains Wii Fit. But with the recent buffs in 3.0, particularly the Deep Breathing buff, it's become clear to me that Wii Fit is a genuinely scary character to fight, her combos can do a crapton of damage and kill you very early with Deep Breathing, and it can be tough for a lot of characters to pressure her offstage game. She also has a couple of really silly moves like Down-Air and F-Tilt that just make her even scarier to fight if you don't know the matchup well enough. She has flaws for sure and loses a decent amount of top-tier matchups but Wii Fit is definitely a solid character and could reasonably be placed in the lower end of high tier. Lastly, of course Ice Climbers have the big "POTENTIAL" sticker slapped on them because of their desync combos and 0-deaths, but honestly a normal Icies can still do a lot of damage very quickly with Up-Air chains that combo from Down-Throw. They can do an easy 60% or higher to your character and a lot of their tools can combo into grab pretty easily. Their lackluster neutral is the worst part about the character but they have some options to pressure you like Blizzard and Squall Hammer, as well as the looming threat of grab -> Up-Air or desync 0-death at the ledge. I would keep an eye on this character for sure if their tournament play ever rises significantly. (They do have good reps currently though, Big D and a few Japanese players do a great job in their regions.)

Also Duck Hunt is very underrated, especially with 3.1 making his amazing Up-Air connect more consistently, but a lot of tier lists put him fairly high so I think more people are realizing that the character is pretty decent.

 

[Ffamran]

Probably irrelevant by now with the change in topics.

Yes but the ones you highlited already struggle more than fox falcon or wolf and are worse so you're list is pretty accurate except wolf if you think one of the starfox recoveryss is that bad though the worst recovery of the bunch is falco firebird it dosent go as far as foxes and isn't as threatening as wolfs

Fire Bird is a ****ing joke. Same launch frame as Fire Fox at 43 frames, but travels less -- around half of FD while Fox's is around two thirds of it -- and cannot kill outside of gimping or stage spiking. Fire Wolf takes around half the frames to launch compared to Fire Bird and Fire Fox at 18 frames in Ultimate and 23 frames in Brawl, but in Brawl, it had the same travel distance as Fire Bird while in Ultimate, it has slightly less travel distance, but it hits harder allowing it to kill. Brawl butchered Fire Bird from being 64 Fire Fox in Melee to a piece of crap and it has never been changed since.

No other character has a strictly worse version of another character's move. There's always something meaningfully different about it where yes, it might not be as good or practical, but it stands out in some way. What stands out about Fire Bird? Its total damage is high if you can manage to connect all the hits, but at the cost of distance, speed, or actual kill power compared to Fire Fox and Fire Wolf, that's not a great trade when you consider this is a frame 18 on startup, frame 43 launch move. You're better off doing damage with anything else, but Fire Bird. Did I also mention that at least in Smash 4 and Brawl, the charging hits' hit angle is 70 degrees sending them out and away from him while Fire Fox's send them into Fox at 110 degrees?

If Falco is forced to use Fire Bird, then he's dead. Even though it's the same situation for Fox, at least he can recover further away and Fire Fox hits harder.

 

[|RK|]

I think people are def overrating Rebel's Guard. But to answer a point made earlier - yeah, downward guns do punish not doing anything. But the issue is that you can straight up do nothing and wait for the landing as well. In fact, I'd argue that the guns are the bigger issue in this scenario.

Beyond that, two important things:

1) As Salem pointed out it his anti-Joker video, Joker players will use Rebel's Guard the moment they have to land on a platform. At this point, guns aren't even a threat since - platform.

2) Joker won't always use Rebel's Guard in landing situations. There are other situations where people are straight up just grabbing him for it instead of charging up a Smash attack or something.

Also, I truly think Arsene up b is BIG trash and easy to edgeguard. Joker up b is harder to edgeguard than people think tho. You really have to meet him deep horizontally, but... it is doable.

S'all I have on Joker right now. I also don't think he's the best in the game, but I can see why people think that. He's definitely among the... er... lamer characters. Mostly just runs away and hits you for chasing.

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel like Lucario is a very strong character that nobody is really talking about.

Lucario, when he has aura, has absurd zoning, okizeme, and ledge-trapping. The character is really great at punishing the fear and desperation high aura Lucario causes his opponents to feel.

Low Aura Lucario is much more competent than what people give him credit for. He gets good damage off Up/Down Throw and SH Nair along with a great standing grab; which gives him a pretty good tomahawk game, where he can mixup approaches. He also has a good projectile in Aura Sphere and tricky b reverse movement to cause whiffs. I wouldn't put him too high on a tier list though. I personally view him as a more niche high tier along the likes of the Belmonts. Lucario's disadvantage state is really rough to play around, and struggles a lot with characters with high kill power AND strong neutral.

The character is plagued by A LOT of stigma and misinformation, though. It really prevents him from breaking through and performing as well as his strengths would indicate.

 

[Routa]

WFT is a neat character, but I'm not sure about being underrated (then again opinions about him differ quite a bit depending who you ask from). WFT has a lot of things going for him, but the main "weaknesses" he has are lack of proper aerial to cover the area in front of him, weak OoS options, lack of proper burst option and lack of range. These are a big no nos keeping him from being "a great character". In a game where low lag disjointed aerials are a bane of existence for many characters being able to deal with the is mandatory and if you ask me WFT lacks that.
While he can abuse his very low crouch and thin hurtbox to bait whiffs he still lacks proper options to punish with. Nair being great option against shield is neat and all, but it is very hard committment and gets often interrupted by players who know the MU well enough by a quick rising aerial. Lack of proper spacing fair/nair makes it a lot harder to deal with opponents coming right towards you. You are forced to Bair to keep you opponents at bay but you options from being back towards opponent are that great due to being limited to average at best spacing bair and low range ftilt.
While yes after getting in your opponent is in for a pain, but getting in is the hard part.
He isn't a character who can press buttons and claim victory in neutral by that like some characters which is also one of the reason why he isn't that popular (other being not being from a popular franchise). He is kinda... average in terms of "tournament power" (how well the character will perform in tournaments when you count MUs and having to play many hours in a pressure situations) when you think about.
Also I think his low hurtbox crouch is still being underutilized even if it isn't that amazing. Not having to pop up a shield to avoid attacks is a big thing that can be utilized for getting whiffs and makes punishing a lot faster (get opponent to whiff and punish with strong ftilt).

 

[DelugeFGC]

How exactly is Wii Fit lacking burst options when they have combos out of deep breathing that can literally 0-death people if you chain them into the correct read upon finishing?

The character has definite flaws, but not having good burst options ain't one. Deep breathing = literally Ganon's damage output, including a NAir that does over 20%.

 

[Vyrnx]

How exactly is Wii Fit lacking burst options when they have combos out of deep breathing that can literally 0-death people if you chain them into the correct read upon finishing?

The character has definite flaws, but not having good burst options ain't one. Deep breathing = literally Ganon's damage output, including a NAir that does over 20%.

Good burst options in Smash are moves like Snake's dash attack, Falcon's S4 dash grab, Greninja's dash attack, etc, basically moves that cover a large amount of space quickly, break zones, whiff punish. Wii Fit doesn't really have a move that stands out in this way, though pivot cancel ftilt is pretty good and her dash attack is situationally ok

 

[Idon]

Good burst options in Smash are moves like Snake's dash attack, Falcon's S4 dash grab, Ganon's dash attack, etc, basically moves that cover a large amount of space quickly, break zones, whiff punish, etc. Wii Fit doesn't have anything like this

Don't forget Wolf's dash attack. That one's a real doozy.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Who do you guys think are the top few “overrated” characters and “underrated” character?

At least for me I think that Zelda and Rosa are two of the most underrated characters

Certain characters like ,, and were going to be in the underrated list, but it seems like players like Dabuz are finally catching on to the curve about these characters.

Edit: I don't think Lucario is as high as Dabuz ranks him, but he is a solid character nevertheless.

Spoiler: Overrated

Overrated:

Ganondorf, after Nairo defeating Light, hasn't really done much competitively, with Nairo's rematch with Light with Ganon not doing too well. While still much better than his Brawl and SSB4 iterations, he still possesses some all too familiar big flaws with the character, even receiving notable nerfs from SSB4 as well (which I won't go in detail). I'd say he is probably in the lower mid tiers or upper low tiers.

While Shulk is a definitely a good character and improved from his SSB4 iteration, he still possesses an array of slow startup frame data and the drawbacks of the Monado Arts (even being amplified because he apparently has Hyper Monado Arts from SSB4). He is definitely top 35 at the very least, but a top tier contender seems pretty silly to me. He hasn't gotten close to the same results some top players are placing him in. A lot of it has to with players overlooking his weaknesses and probably seeing Salem beat Dabuz with a non-tech savvy Shulk, but still. He could potentially rise up there, but considering that so many characters in the past had similar promise and didn't end up holding up to their end of the bargain, I am being cautious with him.

Now quite a bit of people here already knows how deeply flawed and inconsistent Bayonetta is. However, the top players aren't really themselves. A lot of them are really misinterpreting how Bayo is changed through 3.1.0. It didn't really fix anything, other than make Witch Time not a dumpster counter. Many top players are considering her mostly "fixed" thanks to 3.1.0, but the patch didn't even really touch some of the moves that are in really desperate need of a fix, and the moves that are in really desperate need of a fix that did through the patch aren't changed enough (WTwist and ABK landing lag is still pretty laggy, and up tilt still fails randomly). I think she is still a pretty bad, and not that many players has really caught on how to fight her in this game due to how rare she is, and the fact that you now must to different things to escape out of her combos than in SSB4.

Some honorable mentions are:
Some players are putting Sheik in the upper mid tiers, even a few in the lower high tiers, thanks to her improvements from 3.0.0. While Sheik is notably better after those updates. It doesn't fix the fact that Sheik still has a poor damage output, trouble KO'ing, and having light weight despite having trouble KO'ing. VoiD and Mr.R has dabbled with the character after the buffs, but then radio silence. I still rarely see this character. Whenever VoiD pulls Sheik out in tournament has a surprise counterpick, it usually doesn't do too well. Considering that he is now investing time in Joker, I wonder if we are ever going to see the VoiD Sheik in tourney anymore unless she gets buffed again. I consider her probably in the lower mid tiers.
Some people are probably going to be mad at me for putting Wii Fit here. While I consider her a solid character (myself putting her solidly in mid tier), I feel people are overlooking her glaring weaknesses. She still has a lack of midrange options, short reach that can sometime whiff on low profile opponents, and some notable issues escaping disadvantage, all three of these flaws being reoccurring ones from SSB4. Wii Fit as a solo main hasn't really done too much thus so far. We have WaDi that randomly brings her out, but he generally uses R.O.B. more and gets more success with him. I don't think she is really the lower high tier/upper mid tier character that some people are placing her in.
While I can see their training room combos be applied in tournaments, and those combos are now indeed getting applied to noticeable effect, the duo is still plagued with numerous issues regardless. The obvious one, but most glaring, is how bad Nana's A.I. is. They fixed some aspects of her A.I. at one point, but she still SD"ing randomly. Outside of this, I feel like they are too easy to separate, from a combination of there being more moves in the game that can separate them, and Nana now taking 1.05x times the damage and knockback from attacks. Other inconsistencies, like how much they gutted forward smash's range, how the edges of Blizzard no longer causes hitstun, how Nana randomly teleports, and how much the opponent can mess with Belay. I know that this looks like a rant on the character, but I think the character's noticeable flaws holds them back from the character most players are seeing them now. Big D does well in his region, but he uses other characters as well. Outside of Big D, ICs haven't made an impact in larger events yet.

Spoiler: Underrated

Underrated: ()()

Not sure why, but I am seeing some top players putting Samus towards the lower end of mid tier in their tier lists. I am a bit confused why. We all kind of glossed over the character a few pages back, so I am not going to explain much about the character. Something I noticed is that some top players are pointing out that Charge Shot now deals less shield damage which "ruins" her shield break setups. It really didn't. It made them harder, but didn't remove them. They probably didn't know that Charge Shot is also stealth buffed in that it deals more shieldstun. Considering how well YB demonstrated how devastating the character can be, I am surprised some players are already giving up on her in terms of placements.

While I don't think the Pits are spectacular, I don't think they are the lower mid/low tier characters some professionals are painting them in. They have solid (albeit not overwhelming) strengths and not too much glaring weaknesses. However, that can lead the character with low reps simply because they are not interesting to pick. They are boring. Some players are also kind of overlooking that the character is literally locked away from their best player, as Earth cannot play the game competitively (I am surprised that they didn't allow him and the others to play competitively yet). I think he is a solid mid tier.

Considering how amazing his advantage state is, I am surprised that a few top players are putting Mewtwo in the lower end of their tier lists (lower mid or even low tier). I know that the character has definite flaws, namely difficulties landing and being so big and light at the same time, but considering that it took players until his 3.0.0 buffs to realize that his tail constantly enters the z-axis through various animations kind of shows how criminally under-explored this character truly is. I think DelugeTN kind of glossed better on why I think he is underrated, so I will leave at that. WaDi is recently expressing interest in picking him up again, so we will have to look out for that. I, for now, consider him around mid tier.

Some honorable mentions:
Not sure why some players are putting TLink towards the lower end of mid tier. I know others believe that he is upper mid tier (which is where I generally believe where he is right now), but some of the reasons I have seen to why he is lower mid is kind of silly.
I haven't realized at first how much losing MkLeo's secondary antics with the character does to him in terms of perspective. While some players like ESAM also thinks he is underrated, others are more ruthless in their views. I am bit a bit confused why, considering the many things that is going for him (solid frame data, amazing disadvantage, and can randomly latter you although not as much as in SSB4). I consider him around mid tier.
In a similar vein to Pit, literally locked away from their best player. Considering that Ranai retired prior to Ultimate's release, I am not sure if he will come back either way, but still. While I personally consider him in the lower end of mid tier (which is where most players put him), I think some players are sort of overlooking the good qualities he brings to the table. The very few who do main him does relatively well in their region.

 

[Rizen]

Overrated:

Salem made a good guide on how to beat Joker which covers the same things I talked about and more. There's a lot of counter play to Joker.
has good stuff but also possibly the worst frame data in the game. His results have been lacking too. I think he's high but not top tier.
is good but his results are largely based on how popular he is.
was overrated near the begining but the hype's died down for the most part. His remote bombs aren't as good as YL's bombs because the deal less damage, hurt Link, can be pocketed, can only have one out at a time, require Link to act to detonate so they aren't good in disadvantage and don't start combos.
is a polarizing character and often one of the worst MUs for some characters so he's rated as top tier. That's understandable if you struggle vs him but if you don't he's not nearly as oppressive as Pichu.
Her hitboxes and lack of burst options really hold her back. She can't force anything.

Both over and under rated:
is a scrub killer so he's overrated by casuals but competitive players think he's gimmicky. IMO he's as good as Ganon in mid tier. He has some crazy things like belly armor and 19.2%+ guaranteed of grab but also poor hitboxes and a huge hurtbox.

Underrated:
has an amazing grab game most heavies lack, the best air speed of the heavyweights and can chain aerials. His disadvantage is exagerated and while bad, his air speed helps a lot.
has huge potential as a counterpick character but everyone ignores him for top tiers or Joker after the patch nerfed them. Fire arrows are one of the best projectiles.
Nobody in the West plays him even though he has solid combos and some of the best zoning in the game.
was never designed to be a solo character. He's an important part of the Trainer's team, as much as any of them.
is not falling off because she's basic. Not with attacks that can hit anywhere in a huge circle around her in 6-8 frames. Her advantage state is one of the most oppressive in the game. If Leo's in a bind he'll always come back to her.

 

[The_Bookworm]

ZeRo made a relatively well-made video dabbling on the MkLeo's Joker drama, as well as the state of Ultimate as whole. I recommend you check it out.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Didn't know this hitbox existed at all:

Dtilit can lead into uptilit if you connect with the middle hitbox, also fsmash is a great way to catch your opponent’s landing aerials if they try to aggressively escape strings#SSBU_Zelda pic.twitter.com/2OVrtr1ICw

— JP53 (@_JP53) June 21, 2019

Dunno how useful this is and how reliable this is (like I said, I wasn't aware of that hitbox) but this shows that her dTilt can be actually useful.

I love when meta develops. That's when such things are found.

Quoting myself: It looks this does only work when the opponent is indeed airborne, like this Yoshi.
Doesn't seem this useful since I can't get this hitbox when the opponent is grounded and attacking an opponent that is in the air with a dTilt is kinda stupid.



As for underrated chars: I still stay by my three to four picks with . I guess I've given reasoning for all four characters but I guess it can't hurt to do it again:
G&W's reason why he's underrated is his fAir and early propaganda why this move sucks. It's a good poking tool and has to be respected. You can't just ignore this move. Recovery is probably one of the best in the game and bucket is a good reflector and it sucks up energy attacks, making it a really dangerous tool and shuts down for example Pikachu's thunderjolt pressure. Probably the best reflector in the game because of that little extra.

Luigi has a rather bad recovery but Elegant has shown that you can mix thing up with sideB quite a bit. It's still not great but not as awful as many think it is.
His zAir can stop smaller projectiles and is fairly annoying to deal with because you have to come from above in order to punish that. Grab game is insane but his other combos are fairly reliable. UpB OoS is also a huge thing going for Luigi. Tornado has invincibility frames and sucks the opponent in, so it's a really good combo-breaker.

Since I talked about combo-breaker, Nayru does a fairly good job as well. It's also a reflector which is a nice bonus. Nayru can also be used as a landing option as it pokes through shield fairly easy and if the shield is already weakened then a poke is pretty much guarenteed and thanks to the invincibility frames, some uTilts/anti-air option can be avoided. Phantom ledgetrapping is pretty good. You can only really do roll in and jump out which is pretty limiting. On top of that, she can edgeguard with Nayru and transcendent nAir hitboxes and her weak dAir lingers for a long time (9 frames). Recovery is also great (best teleportbecause of the hitbox) and 2-framing her is dangerous because of the hitbox that actually can kill. Also a fairly good OoS option on top of nAir, bAir/fAir which kills stupidly early and is also fast.

 

[FruitLoop]

Overrated:

Underrated:

I think i've talked about King Dedede several times, but I'm a bit pessimistic about Dedede as a character. The issue with King Dedede is the very fact that he's designed as a damage sponge character. Dedede has an extremely poor neutral due to the very fact that he has no way to actually force the opponent to approach, like yea you can air camp and maybe you can get them to approach that way but his air speed is so abysmal to the point where you can just run around in circles and he can't do anything about it especially when all of his aerials are unsafe on shield especially given the context that Dedede has no fast options to pressure the opponent's OoS option while he often has to jump to avoid getting shieldgrabbed making him super vulnerable to almost every Aerial OoS in the game. King Dedede's Gordos can't really be used in neutral due to its low HP and inconsistency alongside jank as the move is only really "great" in advantage when Dedede gets the hit to force a frame trap or punishing jumps or getting a free grab off of shields if you want to wait for your opponent to land. Nothing in Dedede's kit is useful for fundamentally dealing with the fact that the opponent can just stand there and either spam or just constantly wait until Dedede approaches them while he has some of the worst approach options in the game. Also Forward-Tilt is -22 on shield so not even Dash Cancelled Forward-Tilt helps his neutral that much as its mostly meant to catch landings which you don't even have to do when playing neutral against Dedede. Dedede on hit is simply not as rewarding as other heavies either as despite his suprisingly decent damage racking with good enough fundamentals in advantage due to how many inherently stupid frame traps you can get off of Gordos, he can't really end stocks all too well without overcommiting. Dedede may be hard to kill but finding kill moves or kill confirms on King Dedede is easy due to his big body and laggy hammer moves. Also just waiting out on shield at higher % and punishing anything Dedede does OoS with a decent killing aerial or using the aerial to get him into a bad spot to be killed or rolling behind him if he inhales to punish him even earlier is optimal enough to make his tanky nature not even as oppressive as it'd seem before, especially since he takes 100% anyways since his disadvantage despite his multiple jumps kinda sucks since he can't get off of ledge even with sharking. King Dedede does have good attributes and surviving for a lot can still give him late game potential, but a lot of his strengths are widely reliant on only the opponent while he has such big holes in his gameplan to the point where he'll simply get completely invalidated in higher level play once people learn the matchup. Most top level players tend to talk about how they don't know how to fight Dedede and that's probably a good deal why Zaki is doing as well as he is doing as of right now but honestly as the meta progresses he'll probably fade into obscurity as long as it isn't online.

Luigi is kind of a character i have relatively decent mu knowledge on making me a little biased similar to how Dedede is one of my most played characters but I can still try to explain. Luigi is definitely consistently scary with his grab and even without the 0 to death combo his frame data practically means that he can just win neutral 1 to 2 times to end your stock while he has a bunch of random jank involving cyclone (Why does this move have I-Frames frame 1 and KIIIIL?) to at least make him threatening. The issue is however the fact that Luigi loses hard to lame play. Luigi's grab comes out frame 14 and has finnicky range for the most part meaning that he can't really shield grab you for spacing out random safe aerials in neutral a lot of the time while the character himself has no real way to deal with camp. This character struggles too hard against characters that can just outrange him and space out moves that he can never punish due to his combination of sluggish mobility (Especially in the air so its even worse for him to try to Air to Air his opponents) and poor range while he has no real answer to any kind of lame play WHILE the character doesn't really have any landing options as long as you bait out Tornado and Neutral-Aerial. This honestly gets worse when you realize that you can just intercept his side-special (Which is usually relatively hard to edge guard in the tranditional sense unless you have a big sword) through just choosing to get hit and teching the side-b if you hit the wall which is more than enough to end luigi's stock while his Up-Special has nonexistent hitstun (although it can sometimes gimp fastfallers) with the recovery being easy to two frame alongside Luigi's poor air speed making it hard to mixup his recovery or disadvantage. Luigi has great stuff, but as a polarizing character his neutral is too poor to access his advantage state while he just dies in one neutral exchange more than he kills the opponent in one neutral exchange making him a struggle. Probably top of Low tier or something.

Icies I feel like are just overhyped from the whole desync shenanigans. Most of their desync setups are almost completely reliant on Nana who at this point is super easy to seperate alongside her AI being extremely stupid making Icies in advantage extremely inconsistent which is an even bigger shame since thats probably their only big strength outside of technically having a disjointed hammer and small hurtbox. Icies in advantage even fully together gets kind of shadowed by the whole concept of human error since the high precision of these setups requires consistent nearly frame perfect inputs to even get a good chunk of % in order to not risk losing neutral, however in a tournament environment with all of the opponent's DI variables, it's not always reliable due to the concept of human error regardless of how optimized and practiced the combos become. Icies aren't really great in disadvantage and the fact that they can just fail to recover due to the other's super stupid AI means that they're widely inconsistent while just laming them out due to their slow mobility and mostly below average neutral also just means that they aren't really all that great even at the most optimal of plays.

For Underrated characters i'll start with Pac-Man. Pac-Man at this point is probably top 15 in the lower parts of Top Tier and as a hot take i feel that after a few more months with him he could probably end up being as high as top 5 or EVEN top 3 potentially, yea he's that good. Pac-Man has nearly Sheik levels of having safe moves and stupidly great frame data while he is floaty with good air speed meaning that he can just buffer whatever aerial he needs for practically everything. Nair, Trampoline, and Down-Air out of shield are all stupidly good with Down-Air even flat out killing at higher % for no reason with Dropping Down-Air even confirming into moves like Forward-Tilt to mixup where the opponent ends up to force the opponent to end up in variable different positions. The fact that almost all of Pac-Man's aerials are practically safe on shield completely including Back-Air which is LITERALLY a kill move thats super fast that you can just weave and out of alongside his great air speed just means he can kind of get away with anything. Pac-Man floating on his Up-Aerial also makes it even better as a juggle tool as it actually allows the move to beat out faster and higher ranged air to airs from the opponent in disadvantage. Oh and that's not even talking about Pac-Man's Forward-Aerial, not only probably the best Forward-Aerial in the game, but a possibly top 10/15 move on just its own. The move is safe on shield, comes out extremely fast with no lag, can be used twice out of a shorthop, you can retreat with the move, it kill confirms into Key at pretty much all % except for the highest of practical %, it can deal 15% alone just from shorthopping while it sets up into practically everything which means that taking just one hit to the face to Forward-Aerial while Pac-Man has an orange, galaga, or bell in hand could literally mean that you can take 60% to the face. Pac-Man's access to super safe tilts and relatively good disjointed smashes also means that he can also frame trap stupidly well which compliments his other tools so well it's just plain scary. Think that's already great enough? Well there's more. Pac-Man's Fruits also exists and they're completely busted when mixed with Pac-Man's other already fantastic normals. The fact that you can fruit recycle them now means that you can just freely throw around as many fruits as you want while keeping them or even just storing them for a higher fruit while it also means that holding fruit won't limit your normals so throwing out a bell means that recycling it will always pressure the opponent into not challenging Pac-Man while taking another safe Forward-Aerial to the face could kill them at 80 due to how Pac-Man can now throw out bell freely without consequence or he can even charge it up to Key. Pac-Man's hydrant and trampoline makes things even better as it now allows Pac-Man to not only force the opponent to jump during trampoline while Pac-Man has fantastic air to airs, but he also has hydrant to force the opponent to move around it while giving Pac-Man free frame advantage all while having one of the best frame data in the game. Also Pac-Man has a suprisingly quick disjointed grab now with access to a kill throw and a combo throw in the form of up-throw all while having Down-Throw to force tech chases which Pac-Man is SUPER good at from both his fruits and his super quick normals. Also this isn't even mentioning how great Pac-Man is at just plainly racking up damage with his fruits and aerials AND his fantastic recovery. I get this character's actual reach is sometimes a bit shaky with his disadvantage state, while better than 4 it's still a bit wonky as well due to him being floaty, but honestly the stuff this character has is just too stupid to not place him in AT least top 20. Also this character wins against a good portion of the cast and he only is seen to truly struggle against Palutena which isn't even that horrible of a matchup in the first place WITH this character getting top 8 in a lot of recent majors from both Tea and Sinji so yea.

Bowser Jr isn't amazing, but he's definitely not a contender for the worst character in the game. He has access to relatively decent zoning options with the combination of Cannonball and Mechakoopa despite their poor frame data and his access to a plethora of relatively quick and disjointed normals means that he can kind of throw around his tilts with mechakoopa around and kind of look around how the opponent either reacts in Disadvantage as Jr has access to great anti-airs in the form of Up-Tilt, Up-Smash, and relatively good Air to Airs that are disjointed, but he also has mechakoopa around usually to punish the opponent for trying to hit Jr OoS while Jr has access to decent grab followups now to punish the opponent for trying to wait around shield against the MechaKoopa. Bowser Jr in advantage can literally deal 60 off of just Up-Air alone and the fact that he can force the opponent to mess up at ledge in disadvantage due to mechakoopa alone alongside him having a forward-smash which alongside MechaKoopa helps cover a lot of options at ledge while having potential to kill the opponent stupidly early gives Bowser Jr a suprisingly great threat factor. Also Jr's recovery isn't even that bad, he gets his double jump back from Side-Special compared to 4 and that alone makes his recovery significantly less exploitable as he's less vulnerable to using Up-Special for the most part with the whole priorities on who takes the damage between Jr and his Kart being fixed as well making him a bit more tanky as well which is kind of important.

I dont get what's with placing people and them placing Toon Link in only mid tier, he's pretty great. He's a short character with a decent sword for his side with access to both great zoning projectiles and fantastic mobility and relatively safe frame data (even if a few of his moves have a bit of startup, they're still suprisingly safe on shield which mixed with his aerial drift makes his pressure game all the much better). Toon Link is still very solid on hit due to how fantastic his reverse ladder back-air is on average and the mix between his disjointed range and fast mobility/frame data makes it easy for him to catch the opponent's landing and airdodges pretty quickly while having a lot of great killing and safe aerials such as Forward-Aerial to reward him for making those predictions with his whiff punishing game overall being solid. Toon Link's recovery is also relatively solid and having a bomb that's 3 frames quicker than Young Link while also having access to a solid boomerang for zoning while still having shorthop autocancellable arrows despite them not being quite up to snuff as Young Link's fire arrow still means that Toon Link is all around extremely solid in the right places despite his questionable disadvantage state due to his floaty nature. He's probably in high tier around the same tier as Young Link and the fact that he's doing so well in Japan kind of helps support that fact as well.

I also believe that are underrated too but I don't really have a huge overarching explanation towards why, I just believe that people kind of underlook them due to them not really making any huge waves and they just kind of write them off as such because their strengths just never seem to resonate with people which is a bit confusing. Especially since Piranha Plant literally has access to one of the top 10 best moves in the game which is kinda sus yet people still claim he's the worst char in the game. But that's probably for another day.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Good burst options in Smash are moves like Snake's dash attack, Falcon's S4 dash grab, Greninja's dash attack, etc, basically moves that cover a large amount of space quickly, break zones, whiff punish. Wii Fit doesn't really have a move that stands out in this way, though pivot cancel ftilt is pretty good and her dash attack is situationally ok

Oh.. oh ****. I've been taking the term 'burst options' the wrong way for literally years.. Welp.

In my head I always imagined it was related to being able to output a ton of damage in bursts.